The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

103. Building Relationships With Your Customers’ Customers w/ James Lloyd


Two sets of customers don’t equal just two customer experiences. Customer experiences are myriad — especially in B2B healthcare technology, where your customers can grow 5x in a month.


In this episode, I interview James Lloyd, Co-Founder and CTO at Redox, about serving both his customers (healthcare software vendors) and his customers’ customers (health systems).


James talked with me about:


- Managing multiple user experiences


- What healthcare can learn from other markets & vice versa


- The wild & mysterious world of telehealth


- What is the cynefin framework, anyway?


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

We are all patients and we really think about it is how can we make sure that the best minds in the worlder are working on helping solving healthcare? The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte, managing multiple customer experiences, designing a buyers journey for tech tools and infrastructure, adapting key technologies and building team resilience during and post pandemic. That some of what will walk through today with a gentleman who holds three bachelor's degrees, one in German, one in mathematics and one in physics. He's the cofounder and chief technology officer at redox engine, the modern API for healthcare, or for their home page right now, the simplest way for vendors and provider organizations to exchange health data. James Lloyd, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so you recently moved from, was it Madison, Wisconsin? Today, compared to your expectations six months in, what is better about Denver than you expected and what is maybe surprising or perhaps even disappointing relative to your expectations? So the thing that's better is I really as a visitor, you don't quite get to value the proximity to the mountains of just like an everyday type experience, and so I've been loving the access to nature and the weather that we have here. And then what's surprising is just everything that comes with living in a slightly larger city. I think I'm pretty much right downtown in Denver and you know in Madison as a basically a college town of a few hundred thousand people. And Yeah, there's just there's lots of interesting things going on all the time, some awesome, some less awesome, and yeah, so just the just the the lifestyle of being in a larger city has been has been one of the surprises, for sure cool. On the upside, traffic is probably amazing right now relative to when you moved here. On the downside, that will ramp up while everything gets even more interesting and dynamic. For a year in a great spot. It's fantastic and I hope, you know, when it's more safe and fun and cool to spend time with people in person, I'll come up and see you something. Yeah, so you are the first CTO on the show and I'm really excited to have a customer experience conversation with a cofounder and CTO, not that that's exclusively what defines you, but to get started, when I say customer experience to you, what does that mean? What does... conjure? Yeah, so for me the customer experience goes every you know, really starts with the upfront expectations and desires of the folks who maybe may have a problem and that they're looking to solve, and then all the way through the experience of leveraging our products in our platform and and ensuring that their lives get a little bit easier and that we can have an impact in the world as well. So maybe a little bit of something that's kind of interesting about about Riadocks, as we view ourselves as a as a platform where our users are typically software developers, but when we think about customers overall, we think about the companies that are creating technology and healthcare, as well as the patients that are involved in receiving care, as well as the organizations and providers who are servicing and providing that care. So we have inevative kind of whose maybe paying us. We view our kind of ecosystem is involving lots of customers who all have an experience that we're trying to drive. That's awesome. I love the problem orientation in particular that you introduced. I don't think there's enough conversation about that, although you know you hear in pockets, and I appreciate in particular the idea that you are taking into account kind of the customers, of your direct customers, and including them, as you know, obviously fellow stakeholders in the problem solution dynamic that you're in with your customers, that to say customers to ready times there and you already, you already took one step toward it, but go ahead and lean into it further. For people who aren't familiar, tell us a little bit more about Redos, like who is your ideal customer or customers, and what problem do you solve for them? Absolutely so. reducks is a data and techchnology platform in the healthcare space and we really help technology vendors get their services and technology in the hands of patients and providers and as lightweight and low friction way as possible. And one of the things that's kind of interesting about healthcare, and I'm sure many of the listeners have have maybe unfortunately run across some of these problems as patients, but the healthcare world, and especially the data world within healthcare, is is fairly fragmented. Every hospital, every health system runs their own data center, highly customized, highly bespoken, antiquated infrastructure and systems in play. And as a technology vendor in this space, if you want to scale your products to many customers, which would be many hospitals or health systems, managing all of those complexities and all of that bespoke nature of each of those systems can be really challenging, and so one of the ways that we help reduce that friction is... providing a single API and developer experience for the technology vendors so they can connect to our platform once and then we have a robust network and way to kind of standardize all of those different instance of all the different health systems. So we work with about eight hundred or so health systems today, which roughly equates to about twenty to twenty five percent of the the overall kind of US landscape and we have about three hundred or so software vendors that are their customers of ours and they range everywhere from ten person company to Fortune One hundred type companies. And Yeah, so those are those are kind of who we typically work with. But in general were we really love working with folks who are making the world a better place for patients or providers and really delivering innovative technology to the healthcare landscape. And our goal is really to take on as much of the burden of building a product and healthcare so that the folks who are working at those vendors can can really focus on their end users and their value props and not have to worry about the complexities of just dealing with healthcare. It's really the interesting when so the company is what, six and a half years old ish? Yeah, around that. Yeah, we we have an interesting starting story then probably. Well, I wouldn't way. What I was going to ask specifically is, I mean this is obviously a problem and it's a very, very big one. So at the outset, you know, how did you view the scene and what were some of the kind of like the primary motivators will like what were you running after at the time and it has that evolved over time, and has your view of the customer evolved over that time as well? So share anything you want on that, like like go back to the beginning. What what were you trying to do with the time, and how has your perspective changed over the past six years or so? Because, again, I really like this idea of respecting your customers, customers, because that is the true way to be a partner with your customer rather than just a vendor, is to take on their problems, take on their opportunities and really help them serve their customers more effectively. I really appreciate that. What I'm wondering is, is that how you thought about a six and a half years ago? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. When we first got started, myself and the two other CO founders, we actually worked at a large electronic health record company. So this is the this is the type of software that doctors and nurses are typing your allergies and diagnosis into, you know, eight ten hours a day, and learned a lot about the the environment and also the way that those folks were not being really well supported by by technology. And you know, at that point a lot of the health healthcare technology industry looked a lot like the productivity space in say, the early two thousands, where you just got everything from Microsoft. You Got Outlook and word and access and exchange server and everything like. You just got... all bundled together. And as we saw the the world going through the Gmail and then you have targeted apps for each thing and you use a sauna and it connects to your the all the other tools with apis. There was a sort of hypothesis that that that kind of shift would also take place in healthcare because the demands that the providers and patients were having we're evolving quicker than the kind of large, monolithic software vendors could could keep up with. And so our initial kind of first step into this was to actually start a healthcare technology accelerator. So we were trying to be part of helping proliferate all these new very targeted applications and we did that for about a year before we realize that we could not figure out how to make any money bring an accelerator. We had to pay rent and buy food and stuff like that. But through the process we learned that. We learned some some of the challenges to scaling a company and we saw, we sorry about ten different companies, since we saw all their challenges all the and one of the biggest areas was just how do we how do we connect share this information? And so as we were starting the accelerator, we and the background were building a suite of technology for all those accelerator companies to use. And as we are kind of coming to conclusion we probably needed to just become a single company rather than running an accelerator, we were looking around and saying, so we just join one of these companies that we have the accelerator or what? And then the idea of becoming actually the technology platform company. It's as the company itself kind of went out because we had we already had a bit of product market fit, because we're scratching our own itch, and we had a bunch of mentors that we had built up in the accelerator and they all told us like all, yes, is a each problem, you got to go solve it. And so from from kind of day one, the idea was standardization will provide efficiency in a way that new entrance to the market will be okay with it. They'll want to be told this is this is the right way to do it and there's only one way to do it. And through that kind of standardization and building a network around that agreed upon and kind of canonical language, we can really unlock and really lower the baried entry to a lot of the integration space. And then the other ideas was was that this should be really, really simple to use. Like we want people who do not have a masters and healthcare administration needed to be able to develop against the API and healthcare as a ton the jargon and it's you know, there's no there's a lot of actual complexing to it. Right it takes people twenty years to get a to get an empty or something like that. So we're trying to abstract and simplify as much as possible so that the folks are building our platform can do it safely but also do it really easily. It's cool. And what are the disc what are the disciplines of your two other cofounders? Are they? ARE THEY TECH ORIENTED? Are they? Do you have like a kind of just kind of a natural leader who love software? Do you have like a sales like?...

Who are your cofounders and yeah, that stage. Yeah, so all three of us are still really heavily engaged in that in the company today. So Luke is our CEO and he's really engaged on the outside like the finance, operations kind of management and and and people side of the company. And then Niko is our is our other cofounder, and he's really externally facing and market oriented and has a background in economics. So he's sort of is an interesting combination of both are really academically oriented economist as well as sort of like the frontman of the band, and he used to do all the pitches and and everything like that, and so these days he's he runs our podcast actually, and he also, you know, engages with government groups on upcoming standards, regulation and and there's a lot of that kind of externally facing activity as well. So in early on we we definitely all did every role and so it's but those are sort of kind of where we where we focus today. Cool. It sounds like a really nice balance and congratulations on, you know, getting this far. It's obviously a huge need and I think, on behalf of people listening who don't quite know all the guts behind their experience with with medical providers. I'm sure they appreciate any of the friction you've removed. So let's get into the kind of buyers journey piece of it. You know, you have a go to market and so I'm clear, and so listeners are clear. Are you primarily like is your is, for example, your sales team or sales and marketing? Are they primarily going out to the other software companies, or are they going out to the healthcare systems or both? And talk about like again, kind of just generically speaking, buyers journey for technical tools and infrastructure. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So we've definitely had a number of experiments and lessons learned and kind of varieties of answers to this question. But what we do today and kind of our bread and butter is through engaging directly with the software vendors as as kind of who were our go to market. Motion is really towards the towards the software vendors, but we really think about it actually as kind of a fly wheel and and sort of really the first entry point is with bringing a new software vendor onto our platform, and so that's why we as we we market into our sales but we really think about it more as once that software vendors on our platform, they will then work with one of their customers, which will be a hell system, and as part of that we will build a relationship with that health system as well, and then we'll learn about some of their needs, some of their upcoming vendors that may be struggling or may meet our services. We can engage with them and then those software vendors might bring us to other health systems, and so there's sort of a feedback loop that that can develop as part of...

...that. And so now when we think about account management or customer success, then it starts to get really pointed in both directions, where we want to like, help folks scale and have their technology and business strategy aligned with what we're seeing, and you know, we have really aligned in symtoms of helping those vendors scale, but we also really want to work with a hell systems to make sure that their initiatives for the year or whatever maybe, can be well served by the by the groups that we work with, and help them get those easily as well. Super Interesting. I can see a scenario where you are partnered with a software vendor, they they land a new health system but I would guess that within your ecosystem there are probably that that health system might be using two, two or three other technologies that are part of your platform that they maybe didn't know that they could connect them all. That's that's right. And this, this is where the benefit of the sort of network approach really really takes hold. Is historically this would have been in a dozens of ours project for somewhat at that health system each time and through what we do there's there's a decent amount of usability and efficiency that comes from just kind of amortizing that initial work with the hell system across all the different vendors that they could want to work with. Really interesting. I see immediate parallels with some of the partnership and integration work that we do here at bomb bomb through our our VP of partnerships and integrations, Rebecca's Foma, and this kind of again, I mean I don't network effect flywheel type thing where now all the sudden we are of more value to the customer. A we get to meet our partners customers and, if should, they participate with both of us were now more valuable to that customer than either one of us was individually. I see the benefits of it right away. I would assume that you have friends were involved in a variety of other roles in businesses. What are some of the parallels here from the way that you're approaching this in healthcare? If you talked with other people just to kind of walk this out and make it even more mainstream to people working in a wide variety of businesses? Of course I see the parallel right away, but you know, have you had that type of conversation with some of your friends or colleagues in other businesses? Yeah, yeah, so maybe maybe one of the best analogies that I can think of outside of healthcare would be a company called plaid, which is in the the financial technology space and they're a little behind the scenes to and really focused on developers as users as well. But if you've used a product like theven mo or Robin Hood or any of those, whenever you're transacting the money from that APP to your bank and back and forth, that's actually plaid behind the scenes, and so they're they're kind of managing all these APPs on one side and all the banks on the other side and kind of playing that network role, and I think they we're doing something fairly similar, but from, you know, patients and providers on one side and all systems on and hospitals on the...

...other side. So it's that that may be a maybe a different industry with an interesting analog. Yeah, I'm going to kind of bounce back a few minutes here. You talked about kind of a CS or account management approach to both sets of customers. Is that one team? Is that different teams, or is it like from a functional standpoint, because it's so interesting. Again, this is kind of that multiple customer experiences piece. Like for us, will sell one account to one solo preneur or whatever they're doing. But we also set out. We have, I think our biggest account is, you know, twenty five hundred seats or so and literally everything in between. So when we organized see us around that. Obviously we have kind of groups of customers that have kinship in either size or industry or that type of thing, use cases, etc. And that's just a matter of you know, that's it seems to me, less of an obvious cut, because some of the cuts are arbitrary, but here you're talking about two different communities and you're truly serving them in two different ways. To the degree that you're getting people who have some exposure familiarity in that business or industry. Obviously that background is going to be a little bit different, or those totally separate functions or like how what's the interface there? Yeah, yeah, so we we have one customer success organization and within that team there is actually specialization, but they can kind of float between between as needed. And there's actually three areas of specialization, where focusing on hell systems is one side and then within the vendor side there's actually we actually split it into two buckets as well one and it's really based on who our champion and stakeholders at the vendor are. One of the interesting things about our businesses. Sometimes it's very financially or business driven, you know, maybe the buyer or the champion might be vp of sales or someone like that, and then in other cases it's very technologist driven, somebody who's looking for a component to their infrastructure, and it can be a VP of engineering or VP of product who's driving it. Those are very different customer success engagements. So if you do a quarterly business review, do you do a quarterly architecture review? And and so we kind of split it on on those angles as as well from a customers of the standpoint. Cool, let's talk about your customers, customers the healthcare experience where obviously in the middle of the pandemic, who know? I mean it continues to take twist in terms for recording this, if is you're listening or recording this, you know, midsummer, late July. I think it'll release in several weeks. So just I offer that for context for folks, because this is a dynamic situation. But obviously there are so there's some higher level truths that transcend any kind of immediate day to day, week to week trends in cases and that type of a thing. Talk a little bit about what you've observed in, you know, with these multiple customers in terms of, I guess, pandemic era healthcare experience.

What are some key trends there and maybe how are you responding or how are your customers responding? Yeah, absolutely, so it's been. It's been really interesting. As a kind of a platform company, we have sort of a portfolio of applications that are customers of ours and they service all variety of problems in the healthcare space, from patient building to reducing time and the weight room to doing diagnostics and doing telehealth visits and things like that. And there are pockets of our customer base that have seen really massive growth and demand over this period. So folks who are doing diagnostic Su testing for Covid, folks who are doing tell a health for doctors where you used to have to go into the clinic and now you can do it over a video and folks are doing remote patient monitoring to make sure patients who got discharged are still fine at home and don't need to come back in. Things like that are really growing in demand. We've seen some of our customers grow literally x in the course of a month, things like that, whereas some of the other maybe some of the efficiency folks or some of the folks who are less oriented towards the response to Covid, have seen a bit of a slowdown in the in their demand. And so for us it's been an interesting kind of concentration of demand within a certain part of our certain subset of our of our platform. And then on the health system side, and know a little bit, unfortunately, a lot of what has slowed down has we're also the primary profit centers for the health system. So health systems are not doing great financially right now and many of them have had to furlough some of their administrative staff, which means that the folks that we too typically engage with either on the IT team or to get that initial kind activity and integration set up with the hell system, maybe strapped or maybe not even there right now. So there's been some some interesting kind of rink wrinkles coming up with that. But yeah, I think the the folks who are folks who were directly engaged, are are definitely growing, going fast and having a having a pretty large impact from from our perspective. So yeah, it's been it's been really interesting having these conversations through this period. Obviously in healthcare has come up before, obviously not as intensely as this this conversation, but you know, it's been interesting in that, you know, as talking with Brian Gilman, who's advantage and they help people kind of essentially move a lot of activity to the cloud and you know, we're talking about something that we've observed here at bombomb to which, especially with larger companies that are thinking about adopting our technology, which allows you to record and send video messages, which you know, it was useful five years ago or eight years ago just as it is today. But people feel that need or that that desire much more acutely. And so some of our larger deals that were kind of stalled, like for any of a variety of reasons that large,...

...larger deals tend to stall, multiple decision makers, etc. Just like all of a sudden back on the fast track, like people that kind of ghosted you a week or two or three back all of a sudden can't get enough of the conversation. They want to move it forward, forward, forward, and so what have you seen again with either kind of customer group in terms of the resilience required in this period and or the rapid adoption of technology and particular, if you made any observations there, because I'm hearing this kind of in conversation. A lot of people are like that. We're maybe on the fence or we're unclear. Are All of a sudden go, go, go, and in some cases you have to do it yesterday. Kind of yeah, yeah, I think. I think that's especially true in healthcare. I've I've seen some folks say, you know, things on twitter and stuff like that that like in healthcare technologies advanced more in the past three months and it did in the past decade before that, and I think a lot of that is because of, you know, the old additive necessity is the mother of innovation, and we have a crisis to respond to and everybody's stepping up to the plate. We have a lot of customers who've, like in a weekend, made a drive through testing application when they don't do anything like that normally, and so there's been a lot of new innovation there and I think also a lot of the change control and Policy and governance and procedures that normally exist within the health system. And for good reason, just, you know, because of the critical nature of the crisis. Of they've they've been we don't need to put this through a month long review before we just start using it, and so that's that's really leaped frog some of those some of those processes as well. So they both of those really contribute to to some of the some of the acceleration. Cool kind of a random question, but it occurred to me of course. Is is you're talking like, okay, there's a lot of data probably moving through these systems. You're obviously intimately involved in that as the connector any tips for people who are considering so, for example, we've had a for a into much more regulated industries over the past three years in particular. They want what we do, but they also like there's some you know, there's a lot of compliance. So we're, you know, moved through stack to type two and all that type stuff. Healthcare, of course, is even more intense than most businesses, probably even as much or more than financial services, for example. Any tips for people that are looking to move their technology or their software into markets that have even some partial here's partial movement toward the level of regulation and healthcare? Anything that you all have learned along the way or caution? Yeah, or a just like practical tips for people that are looking to move into those types of markets? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I think me if you've gone through something like like a sack to or like a PCI type compliance. Yeah, those are those are...

...our kind of similar the thing that I would call out as different is just the the kind of breadth of considerations around specific like data fields and getting into HIPPA, which is the kind of patient privacy regulation. There's a lot of things that are considered Phi, which is protected health information and and so being sensitive about that and sometimes it can even go further than that and go into there. What are they sharing? kind of permissions between different users and conductor see things that nurses can't and and some of some of that kind of user level like role base, kind of controls, and so I would say all of that is definitely going to be in play if you start to get into into the healthcare space. And then the other the other thing that I think is often daunting for folks coming into healthcare is just the the breadth of the just the breadth of data fields in general. Right, so if you're in financial technology, you have like account number, a transaction amount, who it went from, who went to, and there's there's there's, you know, you're sort of thinking on the order of like tens of fields maybe, whereas in healthcare, you know there's a hundred thousand different medications, there's three hundred thousand different types of diagnosis and and you know, I can going on lab tests and allergies and all there's there's a large set of data to deal with. That just adds a level of complexity that that is oftentimes folks haven't had to deal with coming from other industries interesting again, this another one's kind of random. I think it'll kind of bring together the conversations that we're having here. You know, typically I'm talking with marketing leaders, sales leaders, CS leaders, and you have built some of those bridges just through conversation here, but I'd love to give you the chance as someone coming from kind of a product Dev side, Dev side in particular, what do you wish more folks kind of in in those roles knew or understood about about product and Deev, the process required, the way you think about customers, anything that comes to mind like in order to again my goal here is to kind of build the bridge through conversations we can all serve our customers, who were effectively, and so I'd love while I have you, you know anything that you wish more marketing, sales or CS people knew or understood about kind of the tech side of the business? Yeah, absolutely, I think one of the one of the more interesting things could be in that is a way that the team's just generally operate and quite a different number of iterations on the types of tasks that they do. So, you know, given salesperson may try to close ten deals this quarter, or maybe you know may take thirty intro calls this month there, you know, something like that, whereas for a product engineering team,...

...they may have one initiative for the next three to six months, and the level of predictability and kind of law of large numbers that that can give you some some confidence and certainty and in your forecasting. On the sales, marketing customer success side, like doesn't quite play out the same way on the product engaging side also, at least at least for us, a lot of the things that we're doing are like nobody in the world's done it before. Rights their brand new and you go into and your would have eyes wide open and you try to make sure you make the right decisions, but you know, you really don't have a baseline in terms of what to expect in terms of how hard is this going to be even or what are the challenges were going to come across in a month from now and things like that. And so I think there's there's actually a really interesting framework. If I have a chance to they on Soap Fox, I'll talk about it. Called Canevin. It's a Welsh word, I think, but it's basically kind of breaks problems into four domains, simple, complicated, complex and chaotic and complex or those ones where you you only know like point a from point B, you only know like the outcome once you in hindsight, like you don't really know the path, the best path to take, and a lot of engineering is in that world, whereas a lot of sales and marketing tends to be in the complicated world where there's lots of steps between amb but you could kind of map them out ahead of time, and I think having that men mental model has been helpful for me to understand and talk to all the different stakeholders and folks about the kind of the world's lease each side live in and kind of purage that gap. So it's awesome. I'm glad I ask that question and in it is. It's interesting, I think you know, as you said, I'm like, I totally see it, but I never thought about it in that way before and it's absolutely true. And so I think you know, I guess to use a word that a lot I guess a lot of people are using often now, is is empathy. Know's just some empathy for that, for that process in the lack of predictability. It's really interesting approach. I love what you all are up to. You know, one of the ways that we talk about the importance of customer experience on the show and whenever I talk about it is, you know, again, some of these dynamics like hyper competition and product parity really raising up the importance of the experience we create and deliver for our customers, and I really think you all are at the heart of it. You know, the way you talked about already kind of lowering the barriers to entry and and and allowing things to happen more quickly and seamlessly. It's just it's a really I think it's so important for broad, broad innovation. I think the work that you're doing is really cool and important. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and we actually have an internal kind of phrase that we use, which is we are all patients and we really think about it is, how can we make sure that the best minds in the worlder are working on helping solving healthcare and I bury a sentry make that make that population smaller, and so as much as we can expand the group of people working on at the better will be cool. I just...

...have to hope that there's someone else thinking about the insurance side of it, because that part is the most painful. Hey, if you are listening to this episode and you've enjoyed it so far, I've got a couple more that I know you will like. Episode Eighty three with Brian Gilman. He's the VP of product and Solutions Marketing Advantage. I already kind of talked about this one in our conversation, but he shared the three pillars for postcris this customer communication, and it was really all of the customer touch points, not like marketing communication. We did talk about tell a health we talked about content contact centers, we talked about business continuity some level resilience. That one was a really intense one. And then episode sixty eight with Josh Feedi, who's the founder of a software company called sales reach up in Minneapolis. That one was pret Covid, but we did talk about creating and delivering better buying experiences, with video in particular. And so that's episode eighty three with Brian Gilman episode sixty eight with Josh feedy. James, before I let you go, I love to give you two opportunities here. The first is to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or your career, and the other is to give a mention or not, or a shout out to a brand or a company that you really respect for they wait for the way they deliver for you as a customer. Yeah, absolutely so. I think the the person I want to mention is actually a coworker of mine, but he and I go back to a previous employer and he had an impact on me basically on on day one of my professional career. Who and is his name is Andy Kitson. He's currently our VP of people operations that redocts, but came up through the engineering team and if anybody's interested in having a great speaker on on running a distributed team or building team cultures in a system's way of thinking, he would be a great person to reach out to. And then I think the the group that I would I'm probably going to try to flip your question a little bit because I would like to give a shout out to one of our customers, which is a company called curative. In the past two months we've helped connect them to almost all of the state public health registries and they are performing hundreds of thousands of covid tests every week and they're doing amazing work. Killer we need more of that and we need more data on what's happening when, where, why, how, around the results of those tests, especially from a geographic standpoint. Absolutely yeah, cool. Thank you for flipping that. I appreciate it. If folks have enjoy this conversation they want to follow up with you or Reados. Were some places you might send people? Yeah, absolutely. So you can reach out to me on on Linkedin. My name is James Lloyd, and then redox's website is Redos enginecom and we also are on twitter. It just at redocks. Yeah, and would love to hear from you if there's any way we can help or just have a conversation. Awesome. We cover a lot of really interesting topics.

I love doing it from your perspective as a cofounder and to CTEO. Again, I really appreciate what you're doing to a improve customers experiences and be to open up the doors for more innovation in a space that really, really needs it. So we should continued success. Thank you so much for your time and for folks who were listening. If you want links to some of the things that James mentioned, there, including the gentleman. I've already forgotten his name, but I'm going to I'm going to find him and add some links there if you want to reach out to him. So so we always round the stuff up, we put in video clips, we do a short write up and I had some relevant links at Bombombcom podcast. That's just bomb bombcomas podcast. Again, thanks, thanks for listening and thank you, James, for spending time with us. But you clear communication, human connection, higher conversion, these are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance. So pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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