The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

108. Personas Don't Drive Revenue... Mindsets Do w/ Kristin Zhivago

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Nobody likes to be sold to. (Not even sellers, if they’re honest.) Instead of being a sale, customers want a specific solution that originates from their current mindset.

 

In this episode, I interview Kristin Zhivago, Founder and President at Zhivago Partners, about mindset-driven marketing, otherwise known as selling the way that customers actually want to buy. 

 

Kristin talked with me about:

 

- How COVID-19 inspired Kristin to formulate mindset-driven marketing

 

- Why so many companies don’t deliver on their promises

 

- Customer interviews & mindset immersion

 

- Selling successfully when nobody likes being sold to

 

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

 

- Kristin’s book is Roadmap to Revenue

 

- Learn about mindset-driven-marketing: introduction, example, how to sell

 

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

Branding is the promise that you make. Your brand is the promise that you keep. The single most important thingyou can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieveddesired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This isthe customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan. Butute personas don't make purchases, mindsets do. That's the underlying premise of mindset driven marketing. What'sdriving revenue isn't your customers persona, but rather the very specific mindset of yourcustomer. With us today to share more about mindsets and the implications of thatpremise is a revenue coach, the author of roadmap to revenue, how tosell the way your customers want to buy, and president and founder of Chivago Partners, a digital marketing management company. She's interviewed thousands of customers in hercareer and helps hundreds of companies of all sizes increase their revenue. Christian Chivago, welcome to the customer experience podcast. You Nice to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited about the conversation. I think it's going to add alot to the ongoing conversation here on the podcast, particularly obviously the mindset piece, particularly approaches to interviewing customers, because people in a variety of rules needto do that. But you know, prior to running your own show,in getting into Jivago partners, you spent a lot of time in Silicon Valley. You have anything to share on that experience? And when did you leave? And maybe we're there already motivating factors for that to kind of spin outin kind of do your own thing. Yeah, actually, I started ahigh tech AD agency in one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine. So I'vebeen around for a long time in the high tech industry. We left inninety six, partly because the state of California was just getting very anti business, partly because all of our entrepreneurial friends had already left, but partly there'sa culture of sort of a snobbishness in Silicon Valley, which is not tosay that the technical people are snobby. That isn't the problem. I've workedwith tech people all my life and I love engineers and you know that's allgood when you're trying to help somebody, everything's good. When you're trying tobecome the latest, greatest whatever and you know, kill the world with yourbrilliance, everything gets bad. So a lot of our clients were already onthe east coast by the time we moved here, and so we came.We also wanted to live on the water for less than, you know,twenty seven million dollars, because we're sailors. But that's why we came. Itwas not as customer friendly as I wished or hoped it would be.AM So glad that we opened that way because, you know, I readseveral of your blog post prior to, you know, joining you here forthis conversation, and this idea of keeping the customer first and acting in yourcustomers interest, I feel like, seems foundational to mindset driven marketing and Ithink so many of our activities, whether it's building a marketing campaign or writingan email or even entering into a conversation with a customer, so much ofit is about kind of inherently, what do I need to get out ofthis, as opposed to what does the customer need out of this? Andso I felt like that was an undertone there in what you offered there aboutwhat's good and bad about technology, specifically in Silicon Valley. Let's Christen startwhere we always start, just because we're having this ongoing conversation, when Isay customer experience. What does that mean to you? What thoughts does itconjure like where some of this characteristics perhaps? Well, one of my most famousquotes is branding is the promise that you make. Your brand is thepromise that you keep. And what happens with branding or marketing in general isthat we make a lot of promises and...

...the promises we make, unfortunately,are pretty similar to the same promises that everybody else makes, and so it'sgetting harder and harder for customers to figure out which one offers what, andthere's been a lot of disappointment, especially in the tech industry. You buya software program thinking it's going to do x, Y and Z, andyou get it all up and running and you find out it doesn't do Zand Z. He was the thing you bought it for. So so now, for years we've been selling in a skepticism swamp where people are just disgustedwith those problems. So they don't believe it. So they're going to Capteriraor detw crowd or whatever and trying to figure out their third parties, buteven those are tainted because you can be sponsored or get to the top ofthe list somehow. So I think what happens is when the customer comes tothey have a desire, and I define the mindset as a set of desires, concerns and questions. They get those answer to their satisfaction and they think, okay, okay, this is going to solve my problem. Good,I can relax. And then they start working on and they discovered that youaren't keeping the promises you made and the whole thing starts to fall apart,and that is a bad customer experience. A good customer experience is you getto the hotel or whatever it is and they are exactly the way you werehoping and everything is even a little better than you were hoping. That's keepingyour promise in a really positive way, really good. I like that responseso much. Some of the language we've used here is basically the same thing. It's the idea that the brand is the promise and the experience is thedelivered promise, whether it's met exceeded, failed, etcetera. Here you drawthe line a little bit differently, but I think the spirit is the sameas branding is the promise. The brand is actually the manifestation of the activitiesin the experience that people have with you. You know, before we get deeperinto mindset driven marketing, I'd look for you just for context for listeners, just to give a drive by on you know, who is your vagopartners? Who's your ideal customer and what are you trying to solve for them? Well, what's happened in the digital marketing space. And again, I'vebeen a tech for a long time, so you know I'm pretty familiar withthe whole thing. Couple things. It changes daily. I mean and and. We now have two customers. We have our regular customers and then wehave google, and Google's trying to satisfy customers, which is why they've gotninety five percent of the search market or something like that. But they havedifferent they have two hundred algorithmic criteria that you have to meet and those changedaily. So you've got that customer and you have to satisfy that customer.The same time you have to satisfy your regular customers. So that's a problem. But the other problem is that people are focusing on where the customer is, like the channels where they gather, where you can reach them and soon, and then they're focusing on who, which is personas and you know whatthey look like with their all that, but they're forgetting that the buyer couldbe eighty or eighteen or, as say, a teen or eighty andthey've got a specific set of things that they want when they set out tobuy your product or service. And that's the mindset. And I think youtalked about windows of opportunity and I love that concept. That's what it is. Somebody could be not in the market for your thing today and totally inyour market, in the market for your thing, tomorrow, and so youhave to be aware of what that mindset is one they jump into that thatpoop. So what we do is a team, is we help mostly establishedbusinesses that are frustrated by the actual the whole idea of digital marketing and tryingto keep up with it. And they've...

...tried this and it didn't work andthey've tried that and they're just and they've got websites where the guy always makesthe guy who built it makes them come to him for every little thing whenin fact they could go into wordpress and or whatever and do it themselves.So we try to empower our customers. We teach them, we give themtools and we give them this whole team approach where they get the creative peoplethey need, the channel experts that they need, because the channels change constantly. And then a core infrastructure that I built. That was the first thingI built when I open the company about three years ago, because as arevenue coach for decades, I knew that we had to build the infrastructure firstin order to keep those promises that we were making to our clients. ReallySmart. I love it and I can imagine the amount of frustration and confusion. To your point, it changes a lot. The channels change, therules within each of the channels changes. Yeah, that so it's awesome andI could I can already feel through our conversation, in our pre conversation,kind of the spirit of service that you operate in, and so I canimagine you're of great help to the people that your team works with and youstarted with the foundation first, which I think obviously lends itself to success foryou and your partners as well. Let's get into mindset driven marketing. Twoquestions, I guess, to get us going high level definition. I feellike you've already kind of soft introduced it, but but give it a like aformal go. And then when did it occur to you, like youknow you've got like a little simple, three part model that makes a lotof sense, that I helped kind of walk it out and on bed thatif you're listening to this, we write up short descriptions of every one ofthese conversations at bombombcom slash podcast. We drop in video clips and things likethat, and so I'll drop an image of the model in there as well. But what is mindset driven marketing and when did it occur to you thatthis was different than the mainstream and needed a little bit of a framework,a little model, and that it was something that could be taught to peopleas an alternative to whatever the status quo is? Was Good question, youknow, having been a revenue coach and done marketing and sales turnarounds for alot of companies and went all over the world for even as big as companiesIb am, training their marketing people and that kind of thing. The customerinterviews that I did proved to me that what the company thought of the customerand what the customer was thinking themselves were two different things, and unfortunately thatmeans the company, all of their marketing is off target because they're not insync with what the customers really thinking when they set out to buy. SoI would interview current customers, people who've already experienced the branding or the brand, you know, the promise, and then they had positive and negative feedbackand I would then present that to management, get them on the right track andwe then do marketing that that work. It was just recently, in thelast year, when I kept thinking, you know this persona thing is notworking, it's not helping people actually, and the way you know that isas a buyer. So as buyers we hate cold calls, for example. We do everything we can to avoid cold calling, and yet as sellerswe still do it. Things like that. There's a disparity between what we're comfortablewith as buyers and what we wish sellers would do for us, andwhat we do as sellers because we need to sell. And the more Igot into it, the more I realized and and by the way, thishappened because of covid. Really we have a client who sells luxury yacht cruisesfor, I don't know, a hundred thousand, two, a million bucksa week. Okay, so very high end clientele. Yes, it's avery sancific customer. Yes, yes,...

...and it was a travel it's atravel service. Basically, we were really worried about her when covid hit becausewe thought, Oh God, she's you know. But we added two wordsto our advertising campaign for her. I can't tell you what they were because, you know, I don't want to give that away for her. Butthose two words tuned into the mindset of the customer in the covid environment andher leads shot up from, say, Fifty Week a month to two tothree hundred a month and budget was pretty much the same. And that saidto me, wait a minute, ha ha ha, there's a lesson here. Somehow we tapped into that and we always try to do that. Butit really made me realize that there's a mindset that's driving this and, asI mentioned in my soft introduction, the mindset is desires, concerns and questions. Now, we've always talked about questions. You know, you really need toanswer all their questions. I talked about that a lot in my book. But the concerns and the desires are the two things that we often leaveout. We just say we're great, we're great, we're great, butwe don't say you're in this mess, we've got a solution, here's here'syour I don't spend a lot of time describing the solution. You know,the drowning man on top of his house or the guy in the flood ontop of his house waiting to be rescued doesn't need to be told that he'smiserable. Okay, that's just for us to say, Oh, we knowall about you. Well, yeah, but they don't care because they they'rein their own mindset. So it's desires, concerns and questions, and then thegoal is to make an offer that appeals directly to that mindset, frontand center, top of mine, right right off the gate. Don't talkabout how great you are, how long you've been in business, all thatstuff. Me, me, me, me, me, forget that.Just come right to the point with their concern and their desire and questions andyou get so much farther. So much faster and that's how we see hockeysticks for lead generation, by the way, it takes some time sometimes to figurethat out. It's a bit of experimentation and, as I said,these two words made you know suddenly there was a magic being. So I'mtrying to make this a repeatable process for people. So you get the mindset, you match it with an offer and then it's at the outcome is whatthey want, because they get what they want and what you want, youget a sale of it. The couple observations there. One is that thereare two kind of layers here in terms of getting it right. One ofthem, of course, is identifying and understanding the mindset and then the otherone, of course, is the experimentation with the language. And did Iget the language writer? Am I conveying this properly in a way that touchesthat mindset and provokes some behaviors the offer right? But before we get intothose two, just really quickly, do you view mindset as a subset ofpersona like do we still need to be does does persona or some I'm usingthat as a Standin word for you know, some of the more traditional approaches toidentifying our potential customers. Is Mindset a subset of this, or isit a just a different approach alltogether? Doesn't does persona or ICEP or similarget us into the ballpark and then mindset gets us right to where we wantto be? Or is mind set a completely separate approach from that? Ithink it's almost separate in the sense that you can figure out who somebody is, and marketers need to do that because they're buying lists or they're advertising toa certain demographic or something, and we certainly do that, for example,with that luxury person. You know you have to make a certain amount ofmoney in order to it and you have...

...to be in a certain income bracketto even consider to be somebody who's even considering something like that. So yes, we need to understand that from a research perspective. Who are these people? Where do they gather? So that's the WHO and the and the where. But once we figured that out, they are you know who they are. They're already there. So nothing we've learned helps US address their mindset.Okay, it's yeah, it's something we think we've done and it's not helpful. We've gotten into the playground, but we don't know what they want.Yeah, I love it, it's so good. This goes back to thisidea of not just selling to people but selling to windows of opportunity. Inthis case we found the right people and we've located with them where they are. That's where that work got us. But we still need to figure outis their window open as it closed, and I think that's that's related tothe mindset piece. So now let's let's go back to this idea of kindof maybe the two layers, or maybe it's even more nuance, and youcould educate me on that, but let's go specifically to the mindset piece.So here we are. We know who we think, we know who wewant to talk to. We now know where they are. I think interviewsare probably the path into the mindset, but from a practical standpoint, cangive some guidance. I know a lot of different types of people listening tothe podcast use interviews in a variety of ways. So any tips on interviewsin general and or interviewing specifically to understand mindset that is different maybe than theway some people are interviewing customers today? Yeah, one of the problems thatI see people perpetuating is they use service and surveys. Are My questions,my mindset, and asking you questions based on that. What should happen isyou should interview customers and learn things. You should have a head slapping momentwhen I've taught copywriters to to interview their customers. I mean I have oneguy, Rob Simms, who walked into his Cuba cloths working for Dow Jonesand he was just sitting there going, oh, that's a better rob.I just interviewed a customer and now he's writing to John. He's not writingto some generic person that you know, we came up with in research.He's writing to John. He knows Johnny, understands what John's issues are. It'svery specific and we tend to want to generalize because we want to massmarket. Even in this day of digital customization and all that, we're stillgoing after an audience. So we're missing the mark. In my book andChapter Three I lay out the how to interview customers technique that I perfected basicallyover thousands of interviews and I kept testing different ways and so on, andit's has to be by phone. You shouldn't do video, you shouldn't doin person, because there's this whole other thing that happens with visual if they'rejust by phone, there in their own environment, even if they're on theircell phone, they're they're having their normal life and you just do doling theremore free in that scenario. They're more free and open. Oh yeah,and ahead of time you tell them that that you are going to record becauseyou can't type as fast as they talk, but that you're going to anonymize theircomments. You'll have it transcribed, you'll split it into categories and takeout all references, which makes them comfortable and they open up. I've neverhad any, but I actually take back there was one person out of thousandsof interviews that had wanted the double check with the company before he opened up, which was understandable, but anyway. So they get relaxed and then youask them open ended questions. How did you feel about our product and service? If you were the CEO of our company tomorrow, what's the first thingyou would fix? What trends you see in your market? What's your biggestchallenge? Things like that. This gets you in the ballpark. It's stilltakes some work and, by the way, one of the other things you wantto do is look at the competition...

...and that offers their making and theclicks they're getting, which you can do now very easily with variety of tools, and see the ads that they're running and saw on that get them themost cliques and you can play up on that. You can build a wholecampaign with those two things together really good. A couple couple related questions. Whatis the best way, in your observation and experience, of organizing largevolumes of qualitative feedback? So you have some of these transcriptions, like,what are you doing or what is your team doing with, say, transcriptionsof multiple customers, like, how do you organize this and share it withthe people that need to know? kind of so we went out and didfifteen interviews. What did you learn? Like, I guess I'll stop tenoptions. I'll just stop there. How do you organize large amounts of qualityto feedback? Yeah, it's not that hard, and the reason it's notthat hard is because during that process of interviewing thousands of customers, I realizedthat if you talk to five to seven customers of a given type, likeif you're doing be tob there's a CEO and there's an engineer and there's apurchasing agent for for just as an example. So you might have three types ofcustomers. You want to talk to five to seven of each of those, and so at the most you're going to end up with fifteen to twentypeople right it in that complicated scenario, if you're talking just a one typeof customer, because that's all you sell to, five to seven you startseeing trends. Just to be safe, I would go up to ten.But then you have them transcribed. It's really easy. REVCOM is a greatresource for that. You have it in you have it transcribed by a human, not the machine, because the human catches things in a good way.Then it comes back and you split it up into something I call a conversationreport where it's, as I mentioned before, it's categorized by subject. Here's everythingeverybody said about that particular topic and you split it up into chunks.So this is what one person said, this is what the other person said. That can be a fifty two hundred page document and you're thinking, ohmy God, nobody's going to read that. I got news for you. ACEO or V P of marketing, whoever else is involved will read everysingle word, because it's like somebody telling you the story of Your Life.You know you and you and they come back and they go, wow,I had no idea that they cared so much about this and that other thingwe were so excited about. They don't even care about it. They justsay, oh, everybody does that. I can't tell you how many timesthat's happened, hundreds of times. So you get the truth. And thenI prepare another report, and this is where a lot of work comes infor me personally. But what I do is I break it down by Isummarize, I turn those comments into bullets and I really take it down tothe essence of what they're saying, and then I have a set of recommendationsand that becomes the basis for a discussion where we then determine what are themain things we need to talk about, what are the the they offers weneed to make? What's the mindset? What's the offer that drives the wholemarketing campaign? And the good thing about it is it means you're going tobe on target without a whole lot of work. So I think you alreadyaddress this. But how do we make sure we're not overreacting to you know, let's see, you get two people that feel a particular way in theset of five or whatever like. You know, I'm thinking about some ofthe feedback I encounter regularly. Obviously it's not as in depth as you know. How long should these interviews be? By the way, they used tobe an hour. Now people are much more comfortable with half an hour andI'm okay with that right. So, you know, I'm reading much shorterstuff. For example, we have a slack channel set up to bring inevery single NPS score, including the verbatim feedback. Now, I know that'snot a thirty minute interview, but you...

...know, how do we make surethat we're not overreacting to some of these pieces of feedback that we're getting inthat we're not, you know, overweighing what is functionally a little bit ofan outlier? Well, the first thing is one by anonymizing it, becausesometimes somebody will say, Oh, that's Bob Smith. He always says thatand you know he's a crazy guy, so they disregard it. So Ireally make sure that it's very anonymized and even if they say was that BobSmith? I'm like, I'm not going to tell you. But what's reallyinteresting, and the reason that I ended up with the number five to seven, is because by the fifth interview I started seeing the common threat every singletime, and even people would even use the same words or phrases to describesomething having never met any of the other people, because the experience is thething. The common denominator here is that these are customers interacting with your productsand services and they have these experiences and the experience across the board is prettymuch the same. So the outliers end up sometimes not being outliers but peoplewho are actually better at describing it. And there's sometimes ends up in thatwhole conversation report. There ends up being a phrase that really nails it andit just it becomes the main idea that drives the whole thing. You know, Yep, when you're summarizing that, you know, that larger document intoa more condensed one. Are you organizing it specifically around desires, concerns andquestions, or are you just looking for themes at a higher level? Well, for years I didn't even think of it that way and that was kindof a covid as I mentioned this, this idea of the whole mindset andthe desires, quote, concerns and questions, came to me recently. So I'dhave to say, yes, I'm doing that now, but no,I didn't do it before. What I did before was, this is whatyou're really good at, which we should promote, and this is what isreally broken, and we need to fix it in the background and then promoteit once it's fixed. And that drove the whole marketing strategy. Nice.Typically, who are you interacting with and like? When you engage a companylike, who are you typically interacting with and what are they bringing to theconversation? Out of the gate you find that most of the people you're engagingwith have some sense of the customer and some sense of these qualities, likethey have a sense of the mindset. Or is this something that tends tobe true discovery? It depends. If they are a product company and theydon't talk to the customer very much, then their their way off. Typically, if it there are a service company and they interact with their customers frequentlyand they like their customers, and we only work with people who like theircustomers. They're closer, but there are still a lot of things that peoplewon't say to you because they're trying to be polite. You know they won'tsay you know that one person is just terrible and I wish you'd never hiredthem, or this part of your service is really awful. They tend tobe too polite to do that, so you don't really get the truth.They'll say it more to a third party or someone who's calling sort of separately. To answer your first question, though, I always work with the business owneror the CEO, whoever is at the top. That's the person thathires us, who hires us, and and then they have people working forthem and we just work with their team. Okay, I want to switch alittle bit because I thought this was really interesting and reading some of yourwork, this suggestion of perhaps replacing some salespeople with people that are more ofa, you know, customer success or customer service manager, perhaps noncommissioned,and really are taking a problem solving approach.

It's interesting. The episode that releasedimmediately before this one speaking with a woman who runs, she's a customerrelationship manager for three different kind of inhouse brands and products under one umbrella,and she was an str initially before moving into this role, and she talkeda lot about having, you know, training their SDR team in their asto be more like doctors, which is, you know, discovery and and,you know, diagnosis and prescription, very problem oriented approach which jumped outto me. It's like fresh off the top of my mind because we justhad this conversation last week, and so talk a little bit about and youhave a good example there too, so feel free to color it with someof your experience with this concept. But when did you arrive at this idea? I think it's a little bit provocative. Certainly a lot of sales folks listento this and I'm sure they're curious were this is going to go.But like talk about that, this idea of maybe replacing some salespeople with apotentially noncommissioned cs type of person presale. Yeah, I have a client whois probably one of the most brilliant marketers I've ever worked with and he's he'sa logistics guy, he's an operations guy's a good manager. He puts whateveryou put them on. He'll figure it out and then work it out makeit work. And recently, over the last I don't know, six monthsI'd say we definitely made that shift and it's working out so well for them. I mean in a recent month they made a seven thousand dollar investment insome I won't go into the details, but eight hundred thousand dollars in revenuecame from it. So it does pay off. And what it comes downto is the thing I talked about in my book, how to make iteasy for customers to buy. If you're pushing, if you're an impatient personon a commission where you have to make your quota, you're not really listening. You're looking for an opportunity to stick your foot in and say, okay, well, if that's the way you feel, then you should do this. And that's how we address this. And and so you're losing the customer. The customers just like, Oh God, I'm being sold again. You know, nobody likes being sold to. That's the thing that that everybody forgetsas sellers is they don't want to be sold to. So this whole ideaof the consultative approach, which I've been pushing for years. salespeople are peoplewho are attracted to the sales thing because they are the kind of strong peoplewho can get up every day and take no, no, no, noall day and then get one yes. That's a lot of character and it'sa lot of aggression and I have to win, which is awesome and Ilove salespeople, but that's not what the customer wants. The customer wants tohave their questions answered honestly completely. Yes, okay, we can do that,but it you'll have to do this. Okay, do I want to livewith that? Okay, I can do that. If you do thatwith a customer, they stick with you, they want to give you their business. They'll even put up with certain things that aren't perfect because you've toldthem exactly. On the other hand, if you I just bought a bigsoftware thing to help with clients on research, and what they promised and what theydelivered were miles apart. It was very disappointing and you know, you'dthink by now, after all these years of buying software, I wouldn't betaken in, but that's not that. The Guy was just so very niceand consultative, but he skipped you know, he kind of left certain things outand he didn't quite mention certain other things. So you've got to deliveron the experience. It has to be right and the sales people have tounderstand if they're selling, they aren't really selling. They're helping the customer makea good decision and if they're not the...

...right decision for them, they haveto back off, and that's hard to do when you're on a quota.It's a bad model. Yeah, it's really interesting. I obviously I'm connectedwith tons and tons of sales people on Linkedin in particular, and I dosee a lot of this kind of helping mindset and approach. I've had manyinterviews on this podcast about how to approach customer conversations with a true spirit ofcuriosity and discovery rather than leading with I have things I want to tell you, customer. Right since you have to take this call, let me nowtell you all the things that you need to know. You know, itactually come at it from a conversational and and curious perspective at the same time. To your point, the real, the reality in the situation is it'sthe twenty, nine or thirty of the month and I need to make somethinghappen. Yeah, I know, and so it's like, yeah, there'sno perfect solution there, but I find that the thought exercise is very provocativeand at a minimum, especially if you're a salesperson listening, you know,listen to that section again again. The the last episode that we released talkeda bit about Gowery Ramcomar talked a bit about that as well, and soI think it's a certainly a healthier approach. Is there anything here that I didnot ask you that you think it's really important for, in particular marketers, in sales people to know or to think, based on your experience,in your perspective, based on thousands of customer interviews, based on helping hundredsand hundreds of companies increase their revenue? What did we miss here that wouldbe worth just a quick drive by click drive by is two things. Marketersneed to be the ex the absolute highest authority, that they most experienced andknowledgeable person about the customer. So they should be doing these interviews, liketwice a week, interview customer, because those subjective, ridiculous conversations that youend up in conference rooms where some guy says, oh no, that's notwhat I think. I think we should do x, because that's how Ido it, you know, or that's how we did it at our previouscompany or whatever. You can't win those arguments if you don't have the customerin your back pocket. You have to be the one that says wait,no. I talked to twenty customers in the last few months and every singleone said x, that's what we have to do. You can't drive thestrategy if you don't have that personal knowledge of the customer. Number One,and by the way, the marketers who have taken that advice have sent meafter I've done a speech or something. They've come back to me and said, Oh mg, I can't believe what a difference it's made in these meetings. Now I have power I never had before. The customers your only sourceof power. Second thing is salespeople are not hearing what the customer thinks becausewhen you're selling to a customer they are playing poker. They don't want youto know all of your concerns and questions. You could have lost that sale rightthere at that minute and they just be sitting there acting like nothing hadchanged and they are thinking I will never do business with this company because ofwhat that guy just said and they'll go right back to their computer and thesales guy calls up as manager and says we got one, we got whenthis was such a great call, and the customer goes back to their computer, Google's, you know, right back to search solutions exactly. So thoseare the two things really good and I and the way I the way Iwas envisioning. Your first point there was we need to have an ongoing listof trends and themes with the bullet points of snippets of conversation to illustrate it, to illustrate the point and just have that in our pocket at all timesto be pulled out in reference in all kinds of conversations and in all kindsof activities and behaviors. This has been awesome. If you are enjoying thisconversation with Kristen, you might also like...

...episode ninety. That was with ToddCapony, who's the author of the transparency sale. We talked quite a bitabout unexpected honesty and how refreshing this true customer first approach can be. Andyou, Kristen, also spoke to something else that he is a big advocatefor, which is helping customers manage and predict their own outcomes. That's whatthey ultimately want. This is kind of that desire, concern question zone,and so the more we can offer transparency and be honest, the more trustthat we build and the better off we are in like a true kind ofwin win dynamic. And then I already mentioned it episode one, await withGowery Ramkumar. She's the customer relationship manager for three high growth SASS companies,and this CS mindset in a sales role and approaching it as a doctor waswas the way she preferred to do it. But I think this problem solving approachwhere we really are looking to do good discovery and truly help people,I think was a theme that that you spoke to quite a bit here,Kristen, and so before I let you go here on, give you twoopportunities. The first is to think or mentioned someone who's had a positive impacton your life or your career, and the second is to give a notor mention to a brand or a company that you personally really respect or appreciatefor the experience they deliver for you as a customer. Well, the firstI have to just say my husband. I've been married for forty plus yearsnow and we are still in love. We're best friends and he is abrilliant inventor type of person, but he's extremely real world so he grounds meall the time and we actually had a boat, Catamaran, built in SouthAfrica and sailed at home and that was after he had fatal cancer. Thequote unquote, survived it and now he's had two other bouts with fatal cancerand has survived it. He is just an inspiration to me every day.That is just wonderful. I love it and continued good health to both ofyou. Thanks. And what was the other thing? The other thing wasa brand or a company the time. Yeah, great experience for you.Yeah, I have to say that we are currently running all of our projects, including quoting, turning it into tasks and invoicing for all of our clients, on a piece of software called a Vaza and I have to say,after I don't know how many software products I've bought my time, probably thousandsat this point, I have to say the experience of using that product andjust being able to just do it, click, do it, click,do it, click, it's been phenomenal. It's absolutely been phenomenal. They actuallydelivered on the desired experience in spades and it's been a fantastic thing forall of our work and are the our own people and our customers awesome.Name again and and spelling really quickly for folks that are interested. Yeah,it's a Vaza, a Va Za, and it's a project management system.I don't see them advertising a lot. There are other companies that do andI've looked at there. I've probably tested, road tested maybe thirty five to fiftydifferent project management programs. This one, man, Oh man, this isjust clean, not too gummed up with a lot of icons and sfrivolous stuff. You just go in and it's totally organized the way you wantit and you get your work done. It's fantastic. There is very highhigh marks on that. I love it. I love the and I love theway you describe their their delivery on on your desires. If folks haveenjoyed this conversation, if they're with us at this point, I promise theyhave. How can someone follow up with you or with Chivago partners? Wherewould you send people to learn more? Check out the book? Anything thatanywhere you'd like to send them? Well, obviously we have a website. IsYour Vago Partnerscom podcasts, blogs.

The book is in there. Thebook sells on Amazon and a variety of formats, so that's the best thing. They can also just google me. You know I sort of dominate thepage when you you type in my name. But yeah, Chavago Partnerscom is theright place to go. Awesome, and I'll round up some of theselinks directly and drop them into the short write up that we have with somevideo clips at Bombombcom podcast. Christen Chivago, thank you so much for your timeand insights. I appreciate your approach. I know that you are helping peoplesimply by the way that you approach the work and I wish you wereawesome rest of your day. Thank you. Thank you. Clear Communication, humanconnection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of addingvideo to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just alittle guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business.How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order todayat Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experiencepodcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategiesand tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcompodcast.

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