The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

108. Personas Don't Drive Revenue... Mindsets Do w/ Kristin Zhivago

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Nobody likes to be sold to. (Not even sellers, if they’re honest.) Instead of being a sale, customers want a specific solution that originates from their current mindset.

 

In this episode, I interview Kristin Zhivago, Founder and President at Zhivago Partners, about mindset-driven marketing, otherwise known as selling the way that customers actually want to buy. 

 

Kristin talked with me about:

 

- How COVID-19 inspired Kristin to formulate mindset-driven marketing

 

- Why so many companies don’t deliver on their promises

 

- Customer interviews & mindset immersion

 

- Selling successfully when nobody likes being sold to

 

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

 

- Kristin’s book is Roadmap to Revenue

 

- Learn about mindset-driven-marketing: introduction, example, how to sell

 

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

Branding is the promise that you makeyour brand. Is The promise that you keep the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host eat them. Baute Personas, don't make purchases mindsets. Dothat's the underlying premise of mindset driven marketing? What'sdriving revenue? Isn't your customers persona, but rather the very specificmindset of your customer with us today to share more about mindsets and theimplications of that premise. Is a revenue coach, the author of roadmap,to revenue, how to sell the way your customers want to buy and president andfounder of Chivago partners a digital marketing management company she'sinterviewed thousands of customers in her career and helps hundreds ofcompanies of all sizes increase their revenue. Christian Chivago, welcome tothe cuspert experience podcank you nice to be here. Yeah, I'm really excitedabout the conversation. I think it's going to add a lot to the ongoingconversation here on the podcast, particularly obviously the mindsetpiece particularly approaches to interviewing custoers, because peoplein a variety of rules need to do that. But you know prior to running your ownshow and getting into Jhivago partners. You spent a lot of time in siliconvallue. You have anything to share on that experience and when did you leaveand maybe were there any motivating factors for that to kind of spin outand kind of do your own thing yeah? Actually I started a high tech ADagency, inone thousand nine hundred and sevety nine. So I've been around for along time in the high tach industry. We left in ninety six, partly because thestate of California was just getting very anti business, partly because allof our entrepreneural friends had already left but parently there's aculture of sort of a snobbishness in Silicon Valley, whichis not to say that the technical people are snobby that isn't the problem. I'veworked with tech people all my life and I love engineers, and you know that'sall good. When you're trying to help somebody everything's good when you'retrying to become the latest greatest whatever and you know, kill the worldwith your brilliance, everything gets bad. So a lot of our clients were already onthe East Coast. By the time we moved here, and so we came, we also wanted tolive in the water for less than you know: Twenty seven million dollarsbecause we're sailors, but that's why we came. It was not as customerfriendly as I wished or hoped it would be. I am so glad that we opend that way,because you know I read several of your blog posts prior to you know joiningyou here for this conversation and this idea of keeping the customer first andacting in your customers. Interest, I feel, like seems foundational tomindset, driven marketing and I think so many of our activities, whether it'sbuilding a marketing campaign or writing an email or even entering intoa conversation with a customer. So much of it is about kind of inherently. Whatdo I need to get out of this as opposed to what does the customer need out ofthis, and so I felt like that was an undertone there in in what you offerthere about. What's good and bad about technology, specifically in SilicanValley, let's Cristan start where we always start just because we're havingthis ongoing conversation. When I say customer experience, what does thatmean to you? What thoughts does it conjure like where some of thischaracteristics, perhaps well? One of my most famous quotes is branding? IsThe promise that you make your brand? Is The promise that you keep and what happens with branding ormarketing in general is that we make a...

...lot of promises and the promises wemake, unfortunately, are pretty similar to the same promises that everybodyelse makes, and so it's getting harder and harder for customers to figure out which one offers. What and there's beena lot of disappointment, especially the tech industry. You buy a softwareprogram, thinking it's going to do XYANZ and you get it all up and running,and you find out it doesn't do. Z and Z was the thing you bought it for so so now. For years, we've beenselling in a skepticism swamp where people are just disgusted with thoseprobems, so they don't believe it so they're going to Captira or D to crowdor whatever and trying to figure out their third parties, but even those aretainted because you can be sponsored or get to the top of the list somehow. So I think what happens is when thecustomer comes to. They have a desire, and I define the mindset as a set ofdesires, concerns and questions. They get those answer to their satisfactionand they think okay, okay, this is going to solve my problem, good, I canrelax and then they start working on a d. They discovered that you aren'tkeeping the promises you made and the whole thing starts to fall apart, andthat is a bad customer experience, a good customer experiences you get tothe hotel or whatever it is, and they are exactly the way you were hoping andeverything is even a little better than you were hoping. That's keeping yourpromise in a really positive way. Really good, I like that response somuch some of the language we've iused here is basically the same thing. It'sthe idea that the brand is the promise and the experience is the deliveredpromise whether it's met exceeded, failed etcetera. Here you draw the linea little bit differently, but I think the spirit is the same as branding isthe promise. The brain is actually the manifestation of the activities ind.The experience that people have with you, you know before we get deeper intomindset, driven marketing, I'd love for you just for context for listeners justto give a drive by on you know, who is Chivago partners, who's your idealcustomer and what are you trying to solve for them? Well, what's happenedin the digital marketing space and again I've been a teck for a long time.So you know I'm pretty familiar with the whole thing couple things itchanges daily. I mean a D and we now have two customers. We have our regularcustomers and then we have Google and googles trying to satisfy customers,which is why they've got ninety five percent of the search market orsomething like that. But they have different. They have twohundred algorithmic criteria that you have to meet and those change daily, soyou've got that customer and you have to satisfy that customer the same timeyou have to satisfy your regular customers. So that's a problem, but theother problem is that people are focusing on where the customer is likethe channels where they gather where you can reach them and so on, and thenthey're focusing on who, which is personas, and you know what they looklike an what they're all their but they're, forgetting that the buyercould be eighty or eighteen or I should say, eighteen or eighty and they've gota specific set of things that they want when they set out to buy your productor service. And that's the mindset- and I think you talk about windows ofopportunity, and I love that concept. That's what it is. Somebody could benot in the market for your thing today and totally in your market in themarket, for your thing to morrow, and so you have to be aware of what thatmindset is when they jump into that that poop. So what we do is a team iswe help mostly established businesses that are frustrated by the actul. Thewhole idea of digital marketing and trying to keep up with it and they'vetried this and it didn't work and...

...they've tried that and they're just andthey've got websites where the guy always makes the guy who built it makesthem come to him for every little thing, when in fact they could go into wordpressent or whatever, and do it themselves. So we try to empower ourcustomers, we teach them. We give them tools and we get thin. This whole teamapproach where they get the creative people. They need the channel expertsthat they need, because the channels change constantly and then a coreinfrastructure that I built. That was the first thing I built when I openedthe company about three years ago because as a revenue coach for decades,I knew that we had to build the infrastructure first in order to keepthose promises that we were making to our clients really smart. I love it andI can imagine the amount of frustration and confusion to your point. It changesa lot. The channels change the rules within each of the chantels changes allthat. So it's awesome and I can. I can already feel, through a conversation,an our preconversation kind of the spirit of service that you operate in,and so I can imagine you're O great help to the people that your team workswith, and you started with the foundation first, which I think obviously lent itself to success foryou and your partners as well. Let's get into mindset driven marketing twoquestions. I guess to get us going high level definition. I feel like you've,already kind of soft introduced it, but but give it a like a a formal go andthen when did it occur to you like you know, you've got like a little simple, three part model. That makes alot of sense that I helps kind of walk it out, and I bed that, if you'relistening to this, we write up short descriptions of every one of theseconversations of Bombomcom podcast. We drop in video clips and things likethat, and so I'll drop an image of the model in there as well. But what ismindset driven marketing and when did it occur to you that this was differentthan the main stream and needed a little bit of a framework a littlemodel and that it was something that could be taught to people as analternative to whatever the status quote is was good question. You know having been arevenue coach and done marketing and sales turnarounds for a lot ofcompanies and went all vover, the borld for e, even as big as companies IBM,training, their marketing people and that kind of thing. The customerinterviews that I did proved to me that what the company thought of thecustomer and what the customer was thinking themselves were two differentthings and unfortunately that means the company all of their marketing is offtarget because they're not insane with what the customers really thinking whenthey set out to buy. So I would interview current customers, peoplewho've already experienced the branding or the brand. You know the promise andthen they had positive and negative feedback, and I would then present that to managementget them on the right track and we then do marketing a that work. It was justrecently in the last year when I kept thinking. You know this persona thing:it's not working, it's not helping people actually and the way you knowthat is as a buyer. So as buyers we hate cold calls. Forexample, we do everything we can to avoid cold calling and yet, as sellers,we still do it. Things like that, there's a disparitybetween what we're comfortable with as buyers and what we wish sellers woulddo for us and what we do as sellers, because we need to sell and the more Igot into it. The more I realized and by the way this happened because of covid.Really we have a client who sells luxury yacht cruises, for I don't knowa hundred thousand to a million bucks a week. Okay, so very high end clientele.Yes, it's a very CIFIC customer. Yes,...

...yes, and it was a travel, it's a travelservice. Basically, we were really worried about her when covid hit,because we thought- Oh God, she's, you know, but we added two words to ouradvertising campaign for her. I can't tell you what they were,because you know I don't want to give that away for her, but those two wordstuned into the mindset of the customer in the covid environment and her leads shot up from say fiftyweek a month to two to three hundred a month and t e budget was pretty muchthe same, and that said to me, wait a minute athere's a lesson here. Somehowwe tapped into that, and we always try to do that. But it really made merealize that there's a mindset, that's driving this and, as I mentioned in mysoft introduction, the mindset is desires, concerns and questions. Now,we've always talked about questions. You know you really need to answer alltheir questions. I talk about that a lot in my book, but the concerns andthe desires are the two things that we often leave out. We just say we'regreat we're great we're great, but we don't say you're in this mess. We'vegot a solution. Here's here's yl right, don't spend a lot of time describingthis solution. You know the drowning man on top of his house or the guy inthe flood on top of his house. Waiting to be rescued doesn't need to be toldthat he's miserable okay, R, that's just for us to say: Oh, we knowall about you well yeah, but they don't care because they they're in their ownmindset, so its desires concerns and questions, and then the goal is to makean offer that appeals directly to that mindset. FRONTAND center top of mineright right off the gate. Don't talk about how great you are, how longyou've been in business. All that stuff me me me me me forget that just comeright to the point with their concern and their desiring questions, and you get so much farther so much fasterand that's how we see hockey sticks for leade generation. By the way it takessome time, sometimes to figure that out it's a bit of experimentation and, as Isaid these two words made, you know, suddenly there was a magic being. SoI'm trying to make this a repeatable process for people. So you get themindset, you match it with an offer and then it's at the outcome is what theywant, because they get what they want and what you want. You get a sale of it. The couple observations there. One is thatthere are two kind of layers here in terms of getting it right. One of them,of course, is identifying and understanding the mindset, and then theother one, of course, is the experimentation with the language, anddid I get the language writer? Am I conveying this properly in a way thattouches that mindset and provokes some behavior is the offer right, but beforewe get into those two just really quickly, do you view mindset as asubset of Percsona like do we still need to be? Does does persona or sometI'm using? That is a Standin word, for you know some of the more traditionalapproaches to identifying our potential customers is mindset a subset of this,or is it a just? A different approach altogether does does persona or ICP orsimilar, get us into the ball park, and then mindset gets us right to where wewant to be, or is mindset of completely separate approach from that. I thinkit's almost separate in the sense that you can figure out who somebody is andmarketers need to do that, because they're buying lists or they'readvertising to a certain demographic or something, and we certainly do that,for example, with that luxury person. You know you have to make a certainamount of money in order Ojoan, you...

...have to be in certain income bracket toeven consider to be somebody who's, even considering something like that.So yes, we need to understand that from a research perspective, who are thesepeople? Where do they gather? So that's the WHO and the were, but once wefigured that out, they already know who they are they're already there. Sonothing we've learned helps US address their mindset. Okay, it's yeah! It's something! We think we've done andit's not helpful, we've gotten into the playground, but we don't know what theywant yeah. I love it. It's so good. This goes back to this idea of not justselling the people but selling to windows of opportunity. In this case wefound the right people and we've located with them where they are.That's where that work got us, but we still need to figure out is theirwindow open? Is it closed and I think that's that's related to the mindsetpiece. So now, let's, let's go back to this idea of kind of maybe the twolayers, or maybe it's even more nuance, and you could educate me on that. Butlet's go specifically to the mindset piece. So here we are, we know who wethink we know who we want to talk to. We now know where they are. I thinkinterviews are probably the path into the mindset, but from a practicalstandpoint can ou give some guidance. I know a lot of different types of peoplelistening to the PODCAST hes interviews in a variety of ways, so any tips oninterviews in general and or interviewing specifically to understandmindset that is different, maybe than the way some people are interviewingcustomers today, yeah. One of the problems that I see people perpetuatingis the ouse surveys and surveys are my questions, my mindset and asking youquestions based on that. What should happen is you should interview,customers and learn things? You should have a headslapping moment when I'vetaught copywriters to to interview their customers. I mean I have one GuyRob Sims who walked into his cubiclos working for Dow Jones, and he was justsitting there going his Wat's e matter rob I just interviewd a customer andnow he's writing to John He's, not writing to some generic person that youknow we came up with hrouhin research. He's writing to John. He knows Johnnyunderstands what John's issues are it's very specific and we tend to want to generalizebecause we want to mass market, even in this day of digital customization andall that were still going after an audience. So we're missing the mark. Inmy book in Chapter Three, I lay out the how to interview customers techniquethan I perfected, basically over thousands of interviews, and I kepttesting different ways, and so on and it' has to be biphone. You shouldn't dovideo, you shouldn't do in person, because there's this whole other thingthat happens with visual if they're, just byphone they're in their ownenvironment, even if they're on their cell phone they're having their normallife, and you just do feel like they're, more free in that scenario, they'remore free and open, Oh yeah, and ahead of time you tell them at that. You aregoing to record because you can't type as fast as they talk, but that you'regoing to anonymize their comments. You'll, have it transcribed, you'llsplit it into categories and take out all references which makes themcomfortable and they open up. I've never had anybody. I actually take back.There was one person out of thousands of interviews that had wanted thedouble check with the company before he opened up, which was understandable,but anyway, so they get relaxed and then you ask them open, ended questions.How did you feel about our productant service? If you were the CEO of ourcompany tomorrow? What's the first thing, you would fix what trends do yousee in your market? What's your biggest challenge things like that? This getsyou in the ball park. It still takes some work and by the way, one of theother things you want to do is look at...

...the competition and the offers they'remaking and the clicks they're getting which you can do now very easily withvariety of tools and see the ads of they're running and saw on they getthem the most clicks and you can play up on that. You can build a wholecampaign with those two things together. Really good couple couple relatedquestions: What is the best way in your observation and experience oforganizing large volumes of quality toe feedback? So you have some of thesetranscriptions like what are you doing or what is your teamdoing with say, transcriptions of multiple customers like how do youorganize this and share it with the people that need to know kind of Lke,so we went out and did fifteen interviews? What did you learn like? Iguess I'll, stop, ten out I'll, just stop there. How do you organize largeamounts of quality to feedback yeah? It's not that hard and the reason it'snot! That hard is because, during that process of interviewing thousands ofcustomers, I realized that if you talk to five to seven customers of a giventype like if you're doing B, to be there's a CEO and there's an engineerand there's a purchasing agent F R for just as an example, so you might havethree types of customers. You want to talk to five to seven of each of those and so at the most you're, going to endup with fifteen to twenty people right in that complicated scenario, if you'retalking just a one type of customer, because that's all you sell to five toseven, you start seeing trends just to be safe. I would go up to ten, but thenyou have them transcribed. That's really easy! Rebcom is a great resourcefor that you have it Inyou. Have it transcribed by a human, not the machine,because the human catches thinks in a good way.Then it comes back and you split it up into something. I call a conversationreport where it's, as I mentioned before, it's categorized by subject:here's everything everybody said about that particular topic and you split itup into chunk. So this is what one person said this. What the other personsaid that can be a fifty two hundred page document and you're thinking. Ohmy God nobody's going to read that I got news for you, a CEO or a VP ofmarketing. Whoever else is involved will read every single word, becauseit's like somebody telling you the story of Your Life, you know and youand they come back and they go wow. I had no idea that they cared so muchabout this and that other thing we were so excited about. They don't even careabout it. They just say: Oh everybody does that. I can't tell you how manytimes that's happened, hundreds of time, so you get the truth and then I prepareanother report and Thi is where a lot of work comes in for me personally. Butwhat I do is I break it down by. I summarize I turn those comments intobullets and I really take it down to the essence of what they're saying andthen I have a set of recommendations and that becomes the basis for adiscussion where we then determine what are the main things we need to talkabout. What are the the the offers we need to make? What's the mindset?What's the offer that drives the whole marketing campaign and the good thingabout it is, it means you're going to be on target without a whole lot ofwork. So I think you already address this,but how do we make sure we're not overreacting to you know? Let's see yget two people that feel a particular way in the set of five or whatever,like you know, I'm thinking about some of the feedback I encounter regularly.Obviously it's not as in depth as a you know. How long should these interviewsbe by the way they used to be an hour now? People are much more comfortablewith half an hour and I'm okay with that right. So you know I'm reading much shorter stuff.For example, we have a slack channel set up to bring in every single NPSscore, including the verbatum feedback. Now Yi know, that's not a thirty minuteinterview, but you know how do we make...

...sure that we're not overreacting tosome of these pieces of feedback that we're getting and that we're not? Youknow overweighing what is functionally a little bit of an outlier? Well, the first thing is on byanonymizing it because sometimes somebody 'll say: Oh that's Bob Smith.He always says that, and you know he's a crazy guy, so they justregard it. SoI really make sure that it's very anonymous and even if they say, wasthat Bob Smith, I'm like I'm, not going to tell you but what's reallyinteresting and the reason that I ended up with the number five to seven isbecause by the fifth interview I started seeing the common threat everysingle time and even people would even use the samewords or phrases to describe something having never met any of the otherpeople, because the experience is the thing. The common denominator here isthat these are customers interacting with your products and services, andthey have these experiences, and the experience across the board is prettymuch the same. So the outliers end up, sometimes not being outliers, butpeople who are actually better at describing it and there sometimes endsup. In that whole conversation report. There ends up being a phrase thatreally nails it and it just it becomes the the main idea that drives the wholething. You know yea when you're summarizing that you knowthat larger document into a more condensed one. Are you organizing itspecifically around desires, concerns and questions, or are you just lookingfor themes at a higher level? Well for years, I didn't even think of it thatway, and that was kind of covid. As I mentioned this, this idea of the wholemindset and the desires concerns and questions came to me recently. So I'dhave to say yes, I'm doing that now, but no, I didn't do it before. What Idid before was this is what you're really good at which we should promote,and this is what is really broken and we need to fix it in the background andthen promote it once it's fixed and that drove the whole marketing strategy.Nice. Typically, who are you interacting with in like when youengage a company like who are you typically interacting with, and whatare they bringing to the conversation out of the gate? Do you find that mostof the people you're engaging with, have some sense of the customer andsome sense of these qualities like they have a sense of the mindset? Or is thissomething that tends to be true discovery? It depends if they are aproduct company and they don't talk to the the customer very much. Then theretheir way off. Typically, if it there a servicecompany and they interact with their customers frequently and they liketheir customers, and we only work with people who, like their customers,they're closer, but there are still a lot of things that people won't say toyou because they're trying to be polite, you know they won't say you know thatone person is just terrible and I wish you'd never hired them or this part ofyour service is really awful. They tend to be too polite to do that, so youdon't really get the truth. Now say it more to a third party or someone who'scalling sort of separately. To answer your first question, though, I alwayswork with the business owner or the CEO, whoever is at the top th. That's theperson that hires us who hires us and and then they have people working forthem and we just work with their team. Okay, I want to switch a little bitbecause I thought this was really interesting in reading some of yourwork, the suggestion of perhaps replacing some sales people with peoplethat are more of a you know, customer success or customer service manager,perhaps noncommissioned and really are...

...taking a problem solving approach. It'sinteresting. The episode that released immediately before this one y speakingwith a woman who runs she's a customer relationship manager for threedifferent kind of inhouse brands and products under one umbrella, and she was an SDR initially before movinginto this role- and she talked a lot about having you know- training theirSDR team in their AES to be more like doctors, which is you know, discoveryand- and you know, diagnosis and prescription very problem orientedapproach. So it Jup jumped out to me it's like fresh off the top of my mind,because we just had this conversation last week and so talk a little bitabout, and you have a good example. There too, so feel free to color itwith some of your experience with this concept. But when did you arrive atthis idea? I think it's a little bit provocative. Certainly a lot of sales.Folks, listen to this and I'm sure they're curious, where this is going togo. But like talk about that, this idea of maybe replacing some sales peoplewith a potentially a noncommissioned CS type of person. Presale yeah. I have a client who is probablyone of the most brilliant marketers I've ever worked with and he's he's alogistics guy he's an operations. Guy He's a good manager. He puts whateveryou put him on he'll figure it out and n work it out, make it work andrecently, over the last I don't know six months. I'd say we definitely madethat shift and it's working out so well for them Imean in a recent month they made a seven thousanddolar investment in some.I won't go into the details, but eight hundred thousand dollars in revenuecame from it, so it does pay off and what it comesdown to is the thing I talk about in my book how to make it easy for customersto buy if you're pushing, if you're an impatient person on a commission whereyou have to make your Oda you're not really listening, you're looking for anopportunity to stick your foot in and say: okay, well, F! That's the way youfeel, then you should do this and that's how we address this and and soyou're losing the customer. The customers just like. Oh God, I'm beingsold again, you know nobody likes being sold to that's the thing at thateverybody forgets as sellers. is they don't want to be sold to so this wholeidea of the consultative approach which I've been pushing for years salespeople are people who are attracted to the sales thing, because they are thekind of strong people who can get up every day and take no no no all day and then get one. Yes,that's a lot of character and it's a lot of aggression and I have to winwhich is awesome and I love sales people, but that's not what thecustomer wants. The customer wants to have their questions answered honestlycompletely. Yes, okay, we can do that, but if you'll have to do this, okay doI want to live with that? Okay, I can do that if you do that with a customer,they stick with you. They want to give you their business they'll, even put upwith certain things that aren't perfect, because you've told them exactly. Onthe other hand, if you I just bought a big software thing to help with clientson research and what they promised and what theydelivered were miles apart. It was very disappointing and you know you' thinkby now. After all these years of byikg software I wouldn't be taken in, butthat's sot- that the guy was just so very nice and consultative, but heskipped you know he kind of left certain things out and he didn't quitemention certain other things. So you got ta deliver on the experience it hasto be right and the sales people have to understand if they're selling theyaren't really selling they're helping...

...the customer make a good decision andif they're, not the right decision for them, they have to back off and that'shard to do when you're on a quota, it's a bad model. Yeah, it's reallyinteresting. I obviously am connected with tons and tons of sales people onlinked in in particular, and I do see a lot of this kind of helping mindset andapproach. I've had many interviews on this podcast about how to approachcustomer conversations with a true spirit of curiosity and discoveryrather than leading with I have things I want to tell you customer right sinceyou hant to take this call. Let me now tell you all the things that you needto know. You know and actually come at it from a conversational and incuriousperspective. At the same time, to your point, the the reality in the situationis it's the twenty Ninh or thirtieth of the month. I need to make something happen yeah,and so it's like yeah, there's no perfect solution there, but I find thatthe thought exercise is very provocave in Veneda at a minimum, especially ifyou're a salesperson listening. You know. Listen to that section againagain. The the last episode that we released talked a bit about galery Ram.Camar talked a bit about that as well, and so I think it's a certainly ahealthier approach. Is there anything here that I did not ask you that youthink it's really important for, in particular, marketers and sales peopleto know or to think based on your experience? In your perspective, basedon thousands of customer interviews based on helping hundreds and hundredsof companies increase their revenue? What did we miss here? That would beworth just a quick drive by click drive by is two things: Marketers need to bethe ex the absolute highest authority that the most experienced andknowledgeable person about the customer. So they should be doing theseinterviews like twice a week, interview customer because those subjective,ridiculous conversations thit you end up in conference rooms where some guyssays. Oh, no, no, that's not what I think. I think we should do x, becausethat's how I do it. You know or that's how we did it it, our previous companyor whatever you can't win those arguments. If you don't have thecustomer in your back pocket, you have to be the one that says, wait! No. Italked to twenty customers in the last few months and every single one said X.that's what we have to do. You can't drive the strategy if you don't havethat personal knowledge of the customer number one and by the way the marketerswho have taken that advice have sent me after I've done a speech or somethingthey've come back to me and said, Oh mg, I can't believe what a difference it'smade in these meetings. Now I have power I never had before the customers,your only source of power. Second thing is sales. People are not hearing whatthe customer thinks, because, when you're selling to a customer they areplaying poker. They don't want you to know all of your concerns and questions.You could have lost that sale right there at that minute and they just besitting there acting like nothing had changed and they are thinking. I willnever do business with this company because of what that guy just said andthey'll go right back to their computer and the sales guy calls up his managerand says we got one. We got, and this was such a great call and the customergoes back to their computer googles. You know right back to setertivesolutions exactly so those are the two thingsreally good and and the way the way I was envisioning your first point therewas we need to have an ongoing list of trensand themes with the bullet pointsof snippets of conversation, to illustrate it to illustrate the pointand just have that in our pocket at all times to be pulled out in reference inall kinds of conversations and then all kinds of activities and behaviors. Thishas been awesome if you are enjoying...

...this conversation with Kristin. Youmight also like episode. Ninety that was with tod capony WHO's, the authorof the Transparency Sale. We talked quite a bit about unexpected honestyand how refreshing this true customer first approach can be, and you Christanalso spoke to something else that he is a big advocate for which is helping.Customers manage and predict their own outcomes, that's what they ultimatelywant. This is kind of that desire, concern, question zone and so the morewe can offer transparency and be honest, the more trust that we build in the ende better off. We are and like a true kind of winwind dynamic, and then Ialready mentioned it episode one to wait with Gary Ram Commar he's acustomer relationship manager for three high growth, SASS companies, and thisCS mindset in a sales role and approaching it as a doctor was was theway she preferred to do it. But I think this problem solving approach where wereally are looking to do good discovery and truly help. People, I think, was atheme that that you spoke to quite a bit here, Christen and so before. I letyou go here and give you two opportunities. The first is the thankor mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or your career, andthe second is to give a nod or a mention to a brand or a company thatyou personally really respect to appreciate for the experience theydeliver for you as a customer. Well, the first I have to just say my husband.I've been married for forty plus years now and we are still in love, we'rebest friends and he is a brilliant inventor type of person, but he'sextremely real world. So he grounds me all the time and we actually had a boat,a cateran built in South Africa and sailed at home, and that was after he had fatal. Cancer quote,unquote, survived it, and now he's had two other bouts with fatal cancer andhas survived it. He is just an inspiration to me every day. That isjust wonderful. I love it and continued good health to both of you thanks andwhat was the other thing. The other thing was a brand or company that tellYoah a great experience for you yeah. I have to say that we are currentlyrunning all of our projects, including quoting turning it into tasks andinvoicing for all of our clients on a piece of software called Avaza, and Ihave to say after I don't know how many software products I' bought. My timeprobably thousands at this point, I have to say the experience of usingthat product and just being able to just do it click. Do it click. Do itclick it's been phenomenal. It's absolutely been phenomenal. Theyactually delivered on the desired experience in spades and it's been afantastic thing for all of our work and our our own people and our customersawesome name again and Ain, spelling really quickly. For folks that areinterested yeah, it's a Vaza Av Aza and it's a project management system. Idon't see them advertising a lot. There are other companies that do and I'velooked at there. I've probably tested road tested, maybe thirty, five tofifty different project management programs. This one man, Oh man, this isjust clean, not too gummed up with a lot of icons and trivolous stuff. Youjust go in and it's totally organized the way you want it and you get yourwork done. It's fantastic. There are very high high marks on that. I love it.I love the and I love the way Y describe ther their delivery on on yourdesires. If folks have enjoyed this conversation, if they're with us atthis point, I promise they have. How can someone follow up with you or withChivago partners? Where would you send people to learn more check out the book,anything that anywhere you'd like to send them? Well, obviously, we have awebsite Chivago Partnerscom,...

...podcasts blogs. The book is in therethe book sells on Amazon in a variety of formats. So that's the best thingthey can also just Google me, I'm you know I sort of dominate the page whenyou Wan, O type in my name but yeah Chicago Partnerscom, is the right placeto go awesome and I'll round up some of these links directly and dropped theminto the short rite up that we have with some video clips at Bombamcom,podcast Christian Chivago. Thank you so much for your time and insights. Iappreciate your approach. I know that you were helping people simply by theway that you approach the work, and I wish you were awesome rest of your daysame to you. Thank you, clear, communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance,so pick up the official book rehumanize Your Business, how personal videos,accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in order today atBombamcom Book. That's Bo, MB bombcom book thanks for listening to thecustomer experience. podcast remember the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,continue learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now inyour favorite podcast player, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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