The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

110. The Inbound-Freemium Connection w/ Nicholas Holland


People are coming to your website because they actually want to evaluate you. Who you are online is something that absolutely impacts your business — whether positively or negatively, depending on how you’ve scaled. 


In this episode, I interview Nicholas Holland, General Manager and Vice President of Marketing Hub at HubSpot, about marketing considerations for improving website experiences.


Nicholas talked with me about:


- Why websites are so crucially undervalued right now


- The metrics that matter in on-site experiences


- What’s ahead for marketers in 2021


- Free vs. freemium at HubSpot and beyond


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

I ask everybody. Are you inthe right channels? Are you leveraging the data that you have or could have, and are you effectively having something help you orchestrate all of this? Thesingle most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a betterexperience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and humanway. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte.No matter your product or service, your customers are checking out your websitewell before they're ever talking to your team or making a buying decision or takingthe next step, whatever that might be. So this on site experience is acritical part of the customer experience and one that, in my opinion,is a bit overlooked, undervalued or underserved. So today's guest is more than preparedto help us with that and a lot more. We're going to betalking some free and freemium as well. He founded led three companies, includinga micro funding and mentorship organization to support entrepreneurs, a microsites company and aboutique consultancy providing product management and custom web and mobile APPs. Now he's atup spot, where he recently enjoyed his five year anniversary. In that timehe served as director of labs, which is a pretty cool title, andVP of product in marketing. Today he's the general manager and Vice President ofmarketing hub, Nicholas Holland. Welcome to the customer experience podcast, Ethan.Thanks for having me excited to be here. Yeah, meet you. I lovethe topics that we're going to be taken on here in you're the guyto discuss them. But before we get into it, I would love tobe like you're a Nashville Guy. It's part of your Linkedin Url. Ihave observed as someone who's visited Nashville several times, it's definitely an IT place. Give me a quick go at Nashville. What makes it awesome and how doyou feel about it? You know, hus fought and the past used toreally talk about how one plus one equals three and it was like anall in one solution. Fel like Nashals like an all in one city.He get four distinct seasons. It's awesome for singles, young people, families. It's got a pretty diversified industry, as crazy as it sounds. Obviouslywe're really well known from music and tourism, but healthcare is really big here.We've got a lot of stuff in like the auto industry. And theother part is is it's like it's not. It's like in the middle part ofthe United States. So you have a bunch of people who come here. So it's a really interesting blend of you know, if you're sitting ina room with ten people, you might have three locals and seven people whomoved here and it just kind of makes for a real friendly city. Soit's got the all in one city. It's awesome. I love visiting it. I know a couple people who've moved there from a variety places. Allright, so let's start where we always start, Nicholas, when I saycustomer experience, what does that mean? Do you you know? I'm familiarwith that question in your podcast and I would say that there's two parts thatI think I would leave with your listeners and tell people. Is that one? It's all of the touch points.

We all kind of know the mechanical. It's all of the touch points that the customer goes through and their leadup to them buying something and, of course, potentially building that relationship afterwards. So the first thing is, I think people don't ever look at it, but like if you could map all those out, even in just anoutline, it's a long journey. But the part I thought might be interestingfor your audience is you ever give a presentation and you kind of step back, you've got twenty slides or you've written a memo and you ask yourself,like what am I really wanting people to remember here? I think customer experienceis like that lingering residual muscle memory of how they feel about the interaction withyou. And if you could step back and say, like what do Iwant people to remember about what their interaction has been with me, it totallychanges the way you think about everything. I love it and that you know. I just had a guest recently, a guy named Jeff Kaylor who isa magician by trade but it's doing a lot of customer experience work in theparallels are fantastic and he really did a nice job saying something that you reallyraised up here and I think is right on. You can map this stuff, but even if you don't go into the detail of every single touch point. Again, we all know the mechanics. If you just pick some of themost important ones and go with the language that you use, there's likewhat do I want people to remember? How do I want to make peoplefeel in this moment? If you just pick three or four of those,you're going to dramatically improve ex clearance or customers as awesome. So most peopleknow hub spot, but you know, for courtesy of the one person listeningwho doesn't give us a little bit about hub spot. Maybe even go specificto marketing hub, like who's your ideal customer? What do you solve forthem? Sure to the one person who has no hub spot. Welcome,glad to introduce us. So up spot originally started off as a marketing automationplatform, specific specifically doing this concept called mbound, which was good for markers. It basically said, let's be good marketers, give value to get valueand let you do content marketing and then it lets you obviously engage in nurturethose people. Over the years we've expanded to where we also want to putthe customer at the center, and so we call it now a growth platformand it comes with a crum and that's crm powers a myriad of customer interaction. So marketing hub, it has a cms that it powers also as asales acceleration tool and then service. And so the way to think about it, if anybody's listening, is like if you needed a front office platform toreally provide a powerful, easy to manage but awesome experience for your customers fromthe beginning attract to the engage and then to the delight so that they comeback again or refer others. We call that a fly will. That's whatups, what I does. I really like that vision being realized. It'sinteresting. I've looked at obviously I've been paying attention to hub spot for wellover a decade, I would say, and I've learned so much from youknow, all the content you've provided, from the privilege of being able totalk to folks like you, and it's interesting I see this, you know, as I get deeper into this customer experience conversation that's ongoing. It remindsme of, like other trends, of like companies having Cros or revenue operationsseat of sales ops and marketing APPs,... know, this idea of reallytying together the marketing, sales, customer success, customer service piece together kindof under one roof, more collectively aligned, in part I think, to managemore effectively all those touch points in along customer relationship. Yeah, theyou know. Ultimately, I think for years we've been aware of the customerexperience. Even back into the s when my dad worked for some of thecomputer companies like Tandy. I remember them talking about customer service and a smileand the experience when somebody walks into buy a computer and all that stuff.I think the reality is is that, you know, the customers have morepower now. I think the competition is a little bit more difficult to differentiatebecause everybody's kind of, you know, running at a breakneck pace to competeand I think that data and technology have become critical, not only just awhim but also just to stay competitive. So if you take all that andthrow it into a bucket, what you have is this world where people arefeeling the pains of more silos. They're feeling the pains of systems that,you know, they pick. Technology is supposed to help them, but it'sdisjointed and it's breaking down the customer experience. It's breaking down their ability to seethis picture. And so when you talk about things like the REV opsroll that's coming out operations and revenue ops, all of that really is a symptomof the fact that, you know, organizations are looking for people to tiethe data, the systems and the experience together, and so one ofthe ways that I meet, specifically Nicholas as my debt my task at Lubspot is to always think about where marketing is going. You know, Itend to think about marketers are like the architects of that fly will. Theykind of they should be the best train to understand what the experience should beand they're motivated financially. If they're sitting at the revenue table. They're motivatedby it because no only do they get credit for leads, but also ifyou get customers to repurchase or things like that. You know it's easier tokeep a customer than they get that. So if they do that well,like the revenue operations people and systems like hub spot and things like that,they just make that easier. Tied all together, give you oversight of thedata to help you spot the friction points in the problems, and all ofthat really is in service. When it all comes down to it, islike the the you know that we say a lot of times the way yousell is the way you win. You know, basically if the customer hasthat good experience, they have that lingering, residual good feeling and you have abetter shot of basically them being part of that fly will buying from youagain, etc. So it's all kind of in service of the stuff we'vebeen working on for decades. It's just that the complexity keeps going up,the speed keeps going up and the need for us to but we don't.There's not more people, it's still just us. So the need for systemsto help us to do that at scale keeps going up and that's kind ofhow I think. That's how I think that marketers are struggling and how wecan help them. Yeah, I really like that you're that you're assigning theresponsibility for managing the experiences to marketers. The same thing, like Matt Sweezy, it sales force, who's been on this show, is the same ina lot of the depending on who is coming on to into these conversation stationswith me, a lot of folks see..., of course, coming outof CS. But, you know, I think that's an organization by organizationpiece. But I appreciate your advocacy of marketing in it and it's certainly certainlyan argument that I'm very familiar with and would definitely get behind. So youtalked about, you know, the pace of growth, the pace of change, etc. Etc. Let's kind of go what feels now a little bitold school and give me your opinion on on this. You know, Ifeel like, especially in the face of like social channels and new features ofsome of the tools that were using, I feel like websites, and especiallyblogs, feel a little bit overlooked and undervalue. Do you buy that?Do you think that's true and in if so, raise up it's importance forpeople that maybe put up a site. They may be tweaked a little bit, you know, a year and a half ago, but it's basically,you know, they're not dedicated to it as a critical part of a thecustomer experience and be you know, business growth and strategy. Yeah, Ohman, there's a lot to unpact there. Let me start with like a smallcouple of anecdotes that I think are interesting and then I'll pull back thenumber of times I've heard that email is dead. The number of times I'veher vendors come out and tell me that forms are dead, and yet wesee they're still as strong as ever. In fact, innovations are a plentyin those areas, makes me realize that, like you, have to always goback and ask yourself what is the the tool itself? What pain isits solving? What kind of functions? And so we go into email.Obviously it's a way to communicate asynchronous Lee and it's a broad, universal mediumthat everybody has. So so the deal is, if you have a badmessage, it's not effective. You have a good message, it is effectivein and as more noise comes in there it's harder for the user and asspam protection and filters get better, there's more ability for you to get yournoise, your message, across. Same thing with forms. They're ugly,they're antiquated, they're long. You do a bad job for performance. Youmake them slick, multi step. You're getting into nice validation. You helpingthe people out. That goes up. anyways. I bring all that becausewebsites are in the same vein. I remember back in the I think it'sin two thousand and six I was having a starting a web design and eventuallybecame a web application company on stuff in and I remember I made this statementat a presentation one time. said, you know, everybody has a website. You know it's because everybody else has a website. You know, theend of the day, that they just know they need one. And backthen it was true. is like everybody had a website because everybody else hada website. And they would redesign a website often because a marketer would wantto show that they were adding value and that would be the first thing theydo and they took a roll and man, that went on for years. Itwas like you get a new marketer every three to five years. Youwould get a new website and then you would basically do because everybody else atan it wasn't driving real business value. The reality is that marketers had tolevel up, technology had to level up, business owners often had to level up. I mean a lot of times people would do a single ten totwenty five thousand dollar investment in the site and they didn't want to talk aboutit again for five years. And I...

...think now where we're at is acouple of things. Have happened. So the first is that everybody expects tobe able to get information asynchronously about you, and so not having a website isa liability. I think everybody's pretty clear on this podcast that that's thecase. But having a website that's actually pretty poor, out of date.You know, you had, you know, the sites where you see like acopyright two thousand and eighteen and it's two thousand and twenty. Now you'relike, what's going on? To bottom right. That's actually a liability too, because it shows that basically, you aren't paying attention, you aren't focused, you aren't fresh and new. This is actually you talked about social.We're seeing that now on social as well, which is people having antiquated social accountit's actually more of a liability to have your last post be seven monthsago, because it looks like you're a defunct, out of business operation.So the bar has moved up where we all are in the game, whetherwe want to be or not. And so every business owner, and Isee a spectrum of them, that think that this is more like a taxor they just do it because of there and they're behind, they're struggling,they're actually hurting themselves. Then you have everybody else who's doing it because theythink that it's you know, it's yes, I understand, I need to doit, etc. I think there's a chunky middle there. And nowyou have this new group, and they're not even like early a doctors anymore. I'll call these like the innovators. It's like we're a lot of theleaders in marketing and you know, I don't know who how your listeners feel, but they have stepped back and they say, my God, this isthe front door to my business. and think about the pandemic. This islike. You know, we spend thousands and thousands of dollars on office forinnovations and signage and all said it. We want to look professional, ourbrand is important. Your site is no different. But more importantly, nowpeople are coming to it not just looking for a pretty face or a brochure. They're looking to it because they actually want to evaluate, they want toget information, they want a price check, they want to do a bunch ofstuff along that journey. And so this is a long answer, buteffectively, now a lot of marketers are starting to see that like the sitehas direct and indirect influence on revenue and there are things you can do toaccelerate that and many marketers are recognizing now that they didn't have the tools orthe reporting or the management structure around it. But now those that do that,that treat it as something that grows business, they began to get moreiterative on it. They work on it every month or every week. Theybasically, you know what they say is whatever gets measured gets managed. Theydo that and they begin to see that now, as you begin to getmore and more percentage increases of conversions or leads, etc. It's having realbusiness impact. That is where things are now, and there's a variety oftactics that drive that, but that's where I think a lot of people's headshould be at. Awesome. So much to to go back to, bythe way, if you're listening to this, and I encourage you to hit thatsixty two back button, maybe twice, depending on how long that was,but so much good stuff in there. What it made me, you know, like one key idea in there that I just want to bottom lineis that, you know, marketing ten fifteen years ago was campaign driven.You would plan it, you would build it all and then you would releaseit and then you would move on, right, and that's the ten ortwenty five thousand dollar website you're talking about,... know. And then and todayit's just life. It's ongoing and I feel fortunate to have been ina business before a joining bombomb where the work was live every moment of everyday was a missed opportunity, and so I at least had that mindset,if not, you know, the experience to do the things that you describedoing really well. Let's go one step deeper here, because there's so muchI want to do in a short amount of time with you. So let'sgo one step deeper there on some of those tactics, like you know whatmetrics really matter? What are what some lowhanging fruit or some overlooked opportunities forpeople that are like, Oh, yeah, I guess we did do that websitelodge eighteen months ago. You know what are? We're a few thingsyou would steer people to in terms of like state of the art best practicesand perhaps how do we keep customers top of mind in this decisionmaking and andexecution rather than just, you know, a conversion rate, which does reflecthuman behavior, but it doesn't reflect the human per se. So like justgo one step deeper in terms of like websites in general. If someone wantsto like do a quick evaluation make a handful of improvements. Where are someplaces you'd steer people from practical standpoint? Yeah, I think if I wasstarting off with somebody and just giving them baseline stuff, I would actually couplethings. I would ask them to secret shop themselves. We secret shop ourselves. There's no technology here, there's no like magical answer. It's literally youbasically either pay somebody or you have I mean it's funny and House five willsometimes of family members will do it and you have them go through it andeffectively you spot the firtain that way and you begin to work, and crazyis friction. So you you have them good day, and what's crazy isthe friction that they find. Maybe misspellings, it may be links that are brokenand maybe things like that. So I would do secret shopping. Numbertwo, I would basically have them do something when it's after hours, becausethe thing is, you know, rare conversation and live chat is really cominginto play, is that people are doing a lot of their work when it'safter hours. They've been working all day. Now they want to work with yourbusiness after hours, and so how well do you let them do that? How well can they self serve themselves and answer their own questions? Sothere's that. Then number three thing I would do is that you've got abaseline journey on your side. All repeat probably have like a filled this outfor a quote or get a get a schedule appointment or call us or somethinglike that. We came out with something called adaptive page testing. You know, it's a fancy way of saying that like you should be doing some abtesting periodically, and I don't think people do that and I think it's scary. I think a lot of people don't do it because they don't know howto. But I actually simplify big time, as I say, like you know, just step one, go look at the page like a normal humanand just say I'm going to go change a few things that I'm particularly curiousabout and then run that experiment. You can get experimenting software if you're usinghub spot. It's really cool. We came out with something where you literallyjust make a separate version in the system. Will tell you who wins, butthat's some basic testing. Marriage to...

...see if you did a drew,you know, two different changes, what would do that. So I thinkthat ultimately people don't know what non insiders think about their the journey. Theydon't ever watch see it. I think people don't basically learn how to servicepeople whenever they don't want to talk to a human or they want to dosomething after hours. And I think a lot of people don't even run thefirst experiment. You know, you want to be in good shape, youwant to be a good marketer, but you want to even go to thegym. It's really tough, and so I kind of ask people where theyare on that journey. Of course, you got the same thing of likelooking at your analytics, your bounce rates and all that stuff, but Ithink those three things are ones that I would have everybody do to get overthe Hump really good. Let's go higher level. People listening to this willstart listening to it near the end of two thousand and twenty, which isthe most interesting year probably that I've been alive in my own experience. That'sa separate it's a separate podcast conversation. You know, your job, asyou said, is to like know where this is going in general. So, you know, for marketers or people who care about marketing, you know, as you look ahead to two thousand and twenty one, two thousand andtwenty two, two thousand and twenty two, you know, what are you thinkingabout? I think three things. We think about breadth of channels.I think that it's been it's not been as fast as some people think,but it has been pretty clear for a while that customers are diversifying to theywant to talk to you know, they want to add mention you on twitter, then they want to send you a private message, maybe a DM.Then they want to chat with you on the website. Then they may wantto post on your facebook page. Then they may want to text message toget get a text message alert from you when their appointment is. Then theywant to you know, they use what's APPS. So can you use that? It's on and onto the channels or diversifying. So I think about thebreadth of channels and I ask each marketer, you know, hey, if youwere to look at your customer base right now and just think of allthe channels that they use in their personal lives. You know, what arethose channels and which ones are you not in and should you be in?So there's a breadth of channels. Then there's a depth of channel I'll lookout, which is, you know, marketing is not rocket science. It'sthe right message to the right people at the right time. It's a wecall it a system of engagement. The reality is is that to pull thatoff as super, super difficult, because it's super easy to do a blast, but that maybe it's not right for everybody, but to give a oneto one message at the perfect time that they want it super difficult. Sowe talked about the depth of information that you have on them and and andthe ability to be able to personalize it, to segment to target. That's whya lot I'll talk about like crm powered marketing. A marketer should bea CO owner of the CRM. So whether it's like the company crm orthe marketer has a crm themselves, that sings to it. They should havethat level of data. The last is orchestration. You know, if you'rea marketer and you feel like you just don't like I go back to optimization. When they say I just don't have the time to do it, that'sa great signal that effectively they are spending a ton of time having to orchestrateall these different systems, data sets, etc. And so I think thatwhen I think about where things are going, I ask everybody, are you inthe right channels? Are you leveraging the data that you have or couldhave, and are you effectively having something... you orchestrate all of this reallynice, helpful framework. Again, I'm looking forward to putting together the shortnotes on this one, which we do for every episode of Bombombcom Podcast,and you can see Nicholas and you can see me. I keep myself init, but if you want to bring some of these episodes to life,we always do that at Bombombcom podcast. I want to switch up. Here'sa little bit, because I think it's a really important and interesting conversation.I would I would love to hear from your perspective, like the hub spotjourney into freemium. You've obviously been a part of it in a couple ofyour roles at hub spot, of course, including now. Talk about freemium asa direction for hub spot and then maybe you can take it anywhere youwant, but maybe advantages disadvantages. Any assumptions? As you were as youwere going on this journey that eat that were spot on or dead wrong.Like anything, you have to like talk about the motivation and maybe some ofthe decisionmaking and learnings along the way. A bunch of things came together thathelped us get there. So the first fremium, as a wellknown tactic.Effectively, for those listening, if you get a chance to read Chris Anderson'sbook on free it effectively starts studying like how jello use free and J Lettuse free, etc. And what it comes down to is when you doa freemium model, you're effectively building a relationship or trust at no cost.You know, of course there is some cost. It's for you, asin like puppies and beer, but at the end of the day it's likeit's you know you have a chance to have a much lower cost to buildinga relationship and the companies that do that, what they then recognize is that theyare starting that customer journey and they're starting a journey of building trust.So someone has done their evaluation, that's off brand or off asset and thenthey've come and it's the first time you started to build that trust. Sofor us in particular, we started our journey along time ago with inbound,we said Hey, give value, a way to get someone's contact information andbuild a relationship. You give value to get value, and that used toalways come in the form of Ebooks or content, blog post etc. Overtime, though, what you realize is the second trend is software is eatingthe world. So you've heard that if you followed a lot in the andthe DOTCOM age. Except our software is eating the world, and what thateffectively means is that we are on computers all day long, we're on ourphones all day long, and so anything that helps our life that's, youknow, on those devices is software. So as you begin to look atyour customer base, you begin to ask Yourself, Oh, okay, Iwant to give value to get value. I want to build this trust.With fremium, I can give away content or I can give away code,and so you've got a content funnel and now you got to coke about,and it's not as complex as a lot of people think. You know,I see a bunch of companies giving way excel templates, giving way calculators.They've built a little bit of micro APP that they've done. It's really awesome. So for us we thought to ourselves. We want to give value before weget value. Follows our ethos of inbound we want to build old trust. Early on that was that. And...

...then we effectively believe that software iseating the world. So how could we give people an experience of our softwareto do that? So we started with fremium. So we've got the freecrm. We then followed on and moved on to bringing down free tools andmarketing forms, adds email that were down there. Then we brought on thefree help desk, and so you know, when I look at hubs far rightnow, you know call it like what an amazing platform and value.I would have killed for this whenever I was doing my start updates. Andit's all free. So we have all these free tools that we give andallows you to build the trust. It allows you to effectively let people startto get something of value before they get that. And then for us,the way we've structured it is that we have some branding powered by hubs foughton there, and if you don't like that then of course you can pay. It has some limits. If you begin to use it as a biggercompany you can of course pay, but outside of that it's not nagwire.It's not cripple where it's it's actually good value. So the pitfalls, though, of that. What we've learned is that if you do a fremium funnel, especially if you're making live software, if it's a calculator, maybe notthe same or a downloadable but free users expect everything just like a paid user, but they pay you nothing, and this can be crippling and hard onpeople, but for us we love it because one of the things that weare looking for is feedback on these tools as well, and so free usersgive you an enormous amount of feedback. You know, they will tell youexactly things that they don't like. They will leave the software if they don'twant to, and so you know, Long Story Short, for your users, you can give code away to attract users, but you do need torealize that they have expectations to the journey is starting in so if you giveit away, you are building that trust and your free software should meet theneeds that they want. But they do have high demands and they don't pay, and so you should learn how to basically get into that. But isa very, very powerful technique that almost every software company is using now andthat. This is the reason why. Yeah, I love it. Forfolks that are listening, I mean the the graiters that help spot release likeyears ago, like it was bind blowing to me at the time. SoI love this language you provided around content funnel versus code funnel, really reallygood recommendations. You know, hub spot is obviously an awesome company. You'remy third and a half guest, as I like to think about. Ihad Dan tire, a longtime sales guy, had Mike Red Board, who atthe time was GM of the of the service hub, Todd Hockenberry,who is not a hub spot employee but, you know, coauthored inbound organization,which was one of my favorite books that I read last year. Youknow, at your five year anniversary your look of course past it, butyou know, talk about your progression from director of labs, which again isone of the coolest titles I've ever seen, to vpgm of marketing. Have likethoughts, reflections, like anything you want to share about your experience withinthe organization. It's been a fun road. I think things that would be interestingto your listeners. When I first came into contact with hub spot,I looked at the culture deck. It's on slide chairs, a place youcan go look at it and I thought to myself, wow, you knowone or just don't usually codeifa their culture.

Highly recommend it and, more importantly, what I love is that that culture code comes up still today.You can be in the middle of a meeting and, no matter what tierlevel or title you are in the company, if someone wants to tag you on, you know, violating something in the culture code or not being empatheticas an exampled and everybody listen. So they take that series. That wasthat was a real good observation. When I came to up spot to thedirector of labs, was an interesting thing which, you know, it evolvedour thinking over time, but we tend to think about and hub spot.How do you put energy into what you have to do today to serve customersversus investing in things you might have to do tomorrow? You know the bookthe innovator's dilemmas is you know effectively you did something awesome. You I.had innovated everybody and you've got it, but if you try to hold ontoit, everything else smoots, you know, and so that's been really challenging andso labs was some of the first efforts to where do they put somebrain power into innovation versus just, you know, servicing customers? Today we'vesince evolved to where every team puts, you know, some percentage of theirtime and innovation. But I think that was an observation and I think lastI think the other part that we've learned here at up spot is, youknow, people talk about putting the customer at the center of stuff and Ididn't really appreciate for years what that meant because I didn't really quite understand allof the data points that come with a customer or I didn't understand, reallyhonestly, even on New Marketing Law. I didn't understand that, you know, even when you get the invoice, it's part of your customer journey.You know, when you get a late bill, when you get like that'sall part of it and you know, the Best I can tell you isthat. You know, what I started to to give as an anecdote isit's it's when you buy a product and right after that you get an emailfrom the company offering you to buy that product. That's an example of whereI just started to recognize just how much more we should know about our customersto really make it good for them. And the bar really has continues tomove up for marketers to get that done. So, but those are some ofthe journeys. I've kind of come along with it. I'm really Ifeel fortunate to work at the company that's like we are banging our heads onthis problem every single day. Yeah, it's awesome. I in for folksthat are listening inbound organization. If you want to get into culture and someof the processes and frameworks, Dan Tyre and Todd Hockinburry do a great jobbreaking that down and kind of welcome you, welcoming you into that culture. Ireally enjoyed that one very much and thank you for sharing some of thosepersonal details too. And it is funny, I mean so many of us,like as a marketer myself, you know, you think about the customerfrom your own perspective. That's right. You think about the customer interacting withyour work and the work of your team members that you heard about in theweekly meeting with your fellow marketers, and so you think about the emails they'reopening, the social post that they're looking at, the videos that they're watching, etcetera, etcetera, and it's so easy to lose sight of this moreholistic view and that's why it's been such a pleasure or for me to hostthese conversations with people throughout different organizations,...

...from marketing to sales, to seeus and beyond. And I love that you went to the invoice there,because it's just like kind of perfect little microcosm of that matters a lot.It matters a lot and no one's in general, historically, not many peoplehave thought about that as one of those moments that matter. And how doessomeone feel when they get that invoice and you know, how can we managethat better? So if you've been enjoying this conversation, you will also probablyenjoy episode forty with Dan Tire who again is the six employeet up spot ina longtime sales executive there is trained a bunch of people and we called episodeforty the biggest transformation in prospecting in thirty years. That one was in factabout video, so we talked a bit about communists video. Yeah, andthen episode forty five with West Bush, who is the author of product ledgrowth in the founder of the product led institute, and we talked. He'sa big fremium guys. Helped launched a bunch of fremium services and so wecall that one. The modern buying process and product led growth. So youcan get some more kind of pros and cons and is this right for me? We exclusively focus there. So if you found some of Nicholas's insights thereand things to consider and some of the things they learned on their journey andthe philosophy that drives it, that's a full conversation there on episode forty five. So, Nicholas, has been awesome. I really really appreciate you taking thetime to do it. But before I let you go on and giveyou a few opportunities in the first is to think or mentioned someone who's hada positive impact on your life or your career. Appreciate that. I wouldlike to thank my grandfather. He said something one time that I repeat often. He said, you know, Nicholas, rarely, well, something make orbreak you. Rarely will one thing make you super successful or one thingcompletely break you. It's possible, but rare. He said. The wayto look at it is it's the culmination of all the little things that youdo. So it's likely tend to think of it as marble's. You know, if you want to get towards a goal, if you want to bein a certain place in life, if you want to change something, youknow every time you make progress towards that, it's a white marble. Every timeyou don't do that to a blue marble. And so you know,if you begin to do that and you think about your jar, are theremore white marbles in there than Blue Marbles? And I think that that's it's helpedme understand when I am making progress, why I am, and when I'mnot making progress, why I'm not. So that's there. I love it. Power of habit and discipline, among other things. So good.I've only had a handful of folks mentioned family members. I love that.You want with your grandfather. How about Nicholas, a company that you reallyrespect or a brand for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer? I love Taco Bell I think that I've loved them since I've been young, so it could be partially some sort of nostalgia, but you know,if you think about it from a customer experience, steppoint. I love thatit's fast, I love that it's squarely folk cost on value. It's agood taste for an excellent price. I... the fact that it's open late. I love the fact that it's basically six ingredients mixed up in all sortsof crazy ways as so there's you know, I got it. I would loveto talk to the product person behind their menu because I'm like, Iknow you can't put a new ingredient in there, but how did you comeup with this? But overall, and I just think ultimately to it,it nails all of the fundamentals for me as a customer. So there's TacoBell. That's awesome and I love these sight like I haven't not thought oldmuch about Taco Bell, but this idea of taking six ingredients and mixing theminto a variety of products, like I've seen so many case studies of businessesthat introduce unnecessary complexity by bringing in new ingredients to expand the menu, whichthen means I need new equipment, which then means I have a higher cashlayout, I need to train my employees differently. I love it simply becausethat's how you keep the value and I've never connect the dots until you justsaid that. But we we do something inside of hub spot we call primarycolors. Reporting as a primary color. Automation is a primary color. Thedata that we stores a primary color, content as a primary color anyways.And what's funny is obviously we work with the marketers, we work with thesalespeople to service people, but those primary colors are the things that we haveonly invest in. That raised the boats up for everybody. Some men thinkabout this as six ingredients, six primary colors, five primary colors of it. The nonnegotiables, the things that nonnegotiable set the very large white marbles.That's the bowlers. This is not awesome. I really enjoyed this, Nicholas.I were recording this on a Friday, so I wish you an awesome Fridayafternoon in a wonderful weekend. People want to follow up on this conversation. How can they connect with you or with marketing hub or with hub spot? Worse, and places you'd send people if they enjoyed this? Yeah,people always wide open. You can catch me on twitter, you can hitme up on facebook. My Messenger is Nicolas Dot l dot Holland and ofcourse you can email me at in Holland. It help spotcom. So just yeah, anytime you want to wrap anybody about marketing, hit me up.Awesome. Thank you so much. I really really appreciate your time. Allright, thank you so much. Cheers. Clear Communication, human connection, higherconversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos acceleratesales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book.That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and delivera better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics bysubscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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