The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

14. Automation, AI, and Human Relationships with Samantha Stone

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you think a checked box on a survey or net promoter score is an accurate customer satisfaction metric, you’re in trouble.

So says Samantha Stone, the founder and CMO of the Marketing Advisory Network. She's the author of Unleash Possible: A Marketing Playbook That Drives Sales, and a regular conference speaker. Stone has worked in marketing, product marketing, partner marketing, and brings a great wealth of experience to this podcast.

Abstractly speaking, customer experience is any interaction between a brand/vendor and buyers, prospects, or customers. It can involve placing an order, or taking receipt of a delivered item. It could be a conversation, or an event one attended.

There's a second definition in many organizations. Because those interactions happen in so many different places, they create a function that is responsible for the intersection of customers across different touch points. That's really important because otherwise you see inconsistent interactions. Sales operates differently than marketing, which operates differently than support, which operates differently than order fulfillment, etc.

The ultimate measure is customer lifetime value. Are we delivering to our customers and ways that enhance our relationship, make them come back for more increase what they spend with us, both in terms of their time and their money? You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customers success. Experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Thank you so much for clicking play. On this episode of the Customer Experience Podcast. Today we're joined by the founder and CMO of the marketing advisory network. She's been at it for seven years now. She's the author of unleash possible, and I love the subtitle, a marketing playbook that drives sales. She's a regular conference speaker. She's worked in marketing, product marketing, partner marketing. Brings a great wealth of experience to the show. Samantha Stone, welcome, thanks for having me. I love talking about customer experience. It's something that is deeply important to all of us, no matter what our function is in an organization. Awesome. Totally agree. And so let's just start with what's tead right up in front of us. From your perspective, how would you define customer experience? Where are some of US characteristics? What does it look like? What does it feel like? When I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? That is probably unintentionally so, a loaded question, but I'm going to answer it in two different ways and I hope you don't mind. I don't. The first way I'm going to answer it is much more abstract, which is customer experience to me is any interaction between a brand of vendor and someone who buys something from them or that they serve, and that can be when I place an order, that can be when something is delivered to me, it could be a conversation, it could be an event I attend. So any of the ways that we are interacting with buyers or prospects or customers, that to me is customer experience. Now, the reason I said that there's a second definition is that in many organizations, because those interactions happen in so many different places, we create a function that is responsible for the intersection of customers across different touchpoints, and I actually believe that's really important, because what happens otherwises? We have inconsistent interactions. Sales operates differently than marketing, operates differently than support, that operates differently than order fulfillment, etc. Etc. So it's this abstract thing we all touch, but it also can be a function within a company. Awesome. Now that's obviously the one of my primary motivators for taking the podcast in this direction. How have you seen people structure that well like? What is that function? How...

...are people titling it? What does that look like? I've seen it functioned and title in really dozens of different ways. I think the organizations where I find people feel most successful and most impactful is and when it's an executive level position, when it is not a single person trying to champion across the entire organization and where they have authority and responsibility to drive decisions and global metrics that everyone in the company must meet. It's not successful when it's a symbolic gesture, but it can be very effective when we actually treat it like a core function to the business. Sounds exactly right. What, from a metric standpoint? You know there's some obvious ones, like MPs or customer satisfaction. What are some key things? If some one was to try to start outlining a position or imagining what it would look like in his or her organization, what are a few key metrics that you think capture customer experience done well? That's an excellent question. I think we have become too dependent on metrics like customer satisfaction or MPs. They are important indicators and, depending on where your businesses can be valuable things to measure, but there also can be very misleading. For me, the ultimate measure is customer lifetime value. Are we delivering to our customers and ways that enhance our relationship, make them come back for more, increase what they spend with us, both in terms of their time and their money. And there's a softer measure. So that's sort of to me, sort of the ultimate financial metric. And then there's a soft for measure, is advocacy. It's one thing for customers to answer an NPS survey. I will recommend you to appear. It's actually something different to actually tangibly see. Do we have references? Do they get quoted in stories. Do they talk to their friends? Do we get referrals into our sales centers and our customer support centers that come from somewhere else? Do we see people talking about us in positive ways and social media and when we go to events, as their buzz around us? That advocacy is sometimes harder to measure in, you know, very specific ways, but we know when we're trending up and we know when we're not, and I think that's as important as that lifetime customer metric and certainly more valuable than just an mpscore sitting independent of other things. Very insightful why we dived right in, by the way. So let's back out a minute. Talk to me a little bit about the Marketing Advisory Network for context for the folks listening. You know, what do you what are you doing? What are you working on? What is that all about? Excellent, I'm glad you're at so. At the Marketing Advisory Network we work with businesses that have complex products and services. So that is often businesses that sell the other businesses, but occasionally it's a consumer organization. We specialize and...

...helping organizations think through the customer journey, think through their sales and marketing alignment and their strategy plan, product launches, do all these sort of complex things that allow us to grow our businesses and go after new markets and things like that. So we have, you know, research component of our business, we have a content strategy and development portion of the business and we have a real sales and marketing, demand generations sort of component of what we do. The reason I love it is that we get to touch lots of different businesses and we get to see lots of examples of things that are working and lots of examples of things that are not working, and we get to observe and participate in things and cross pollinate across businesses. So one month we might be working with an accounting software company, another month we might be working in a love sciences division or a publishing business or sometimes, you know, overlapping in the same month, and that gives us tremendous exposure to different types of customer service, different types of customer engagements, and it allows it's not only to bring our own interactions as consumers ourselves and as business people who buy things ourselves, but to see these really wide variety and take the best of what we see in one place and try and apply it where it makes sense in another place, and that's that's really fun and rewarding. That sounds very fun. It's you know, all the research around diversity and how it produces results. It sounds like you've got that baked in just in the customer base that you're working and just different minds, different approaches, different backgrounds, different problems. Complexity is a word that is associated with the work they use. You just used it like a complex selling process or a complex parct. What is complex mean to you in this scenario? How does someone know, because I'm sure various times of the day even someone in a relatively simple business can feel like how this is complex and overwhelming. Talk about complex the way you prefer to use it. Yeah, that's a really good point. Everything is complex to some degree, but in our world we're talking about typically scenarios where there are multiple people helping make an influence a decision. Typically the decisions take multiple steps in time. So I don't it's on an impulse decision. It's a decision that is thoughtful. In research, there's comparison and venders, there's comparison of approaches. It often takes weeks or months, although not always, and decisions that impact people's jobs or their function in a meaningful way. So it's really important what kind of coffee someone has in the office right. That is a meaningful impact in the in the office, in the culture of the company. But those aren't typically the kinds of decisions we help with. Typically the kinds of decisions we help what there ones where it is we sell something hard to explain and we sell something that can have multiple value propositions to different people, and so helping make sense of all of that and figuring out how all that fits together is the area that we most often spend our time with. I love that. It sounds like a really fun puzzle to constantly build. So...

...you have a specialty of switching gears a little bit. You did a really, really cool program at MIT's Sloan School of management in artificial intelligence and it's implications for business and business strategy. So I want to spend a little bit of time there because I have a feeling you're going to be very informative, in a very current and smart way, about something that I think most businesses are trying to figure out, which is the balance between humans and technology. How do they complement each other. When is it okay to let the machine do the lifting? When does a human need to intervene and make a true personal touch? So just fire us off on in a conversational direction, on on the roll of Ai in in delivering customer experience and building relationships with our customers, in our future customers. This is such an important area of topic because I am desperate to make sure that we, as business leaders and marketers, don't repeat the mistakes we did with marketing automation, and the consequences of making similar mistakes with this technology are really dramatic. We have massive issues of trust with our communities really, no matter what you sell or do, and artificial intelligence has the opportunity to do amazing things to improve that. But it also, if used incorrectly, could make that trust divide even worse. And so for me there's a couple of really foundational truth that we all must understand, and the first is that artificial intelligence is not designed, or should not be used to replace humans. It should be used to enhance relationships. In some cases that means doing the work that a person might otherwise. For example, talking to a human is often over rated. When I simply want to know when my contract expiration date is or tell me what the phone number is to get to support or help. The Register for this web semin are coming up. I actually don't need to speak to a person to do that. It's very clear and I can do it when I want and a machine can helply do that. But there are other instances where it's really clear that talking to a machine is the wrong thing to do. When I'm in the middle of a crisis. I had a client whose web site went down. I don't you know that moment in time, no matter how simple it was to solve getting their website back up, they needed to talk to a person, which is emotional driven moment of crisis and we want to interact with this person. There's also instances where we can improve human interaction by using technology. For example, artificial intelligence can help people who are in a call center, at a call interact with the person they're talking to more effectively. They're not talking to machine, they're still talking to a human, but we're making the human conversation better, and so there is lots and lots of ways where we can use that technology. The second area that I plead and it will probably be be a broken record for a very long time on this, but this is...

...about transparency. It is really, really tempting to pretend that my machine is a human, to pretend the chat bought has a picture of a person in a name and pretend I'm talking to a person, or to have an automatic all routing system pretend it's a human on the other side. And there's lots and lots of examples. We create email blast that we pretend come from someone right, lots of ways that we do this today. It is so dangerous and it's so disruptive to building trust with customers that we have to have the discipline not to do that, even when it feels easy. And so I'm a really, really believer that if we want to use the potential of artificial intelligence, we have to be incredibly transparent about where we're using it and when we're using it, and we have to hold back scenarios that feel wrong. We know we know when things are wrong. Some things are obvious, like because we have laws that regulate how we can use information and when we can communicate with people, and sometimes we just need to use our good judgment and it's our job as marketers to enforce that with an organization's so good. I mean what where you are right there, is is the golden rule, which is represented, and any organized system of thought or religion has some version of the golden rule and it's because it's it works in every scenario here. Why would we do things to our customers that we would not want done to us as customers? I have a feeling for the marketers that are listening. Yeah, you really kind of like spike some interest there with I hope we don't make the same mistakes we've made with marketing automation. So let's go back there for just when. I have a feeling that the way you talked about Aii, there that is going to be around trust. But what are a few key things that we've done with marketing automation that we're done easily done wrong or probably still being done wrong today. It's there's so many areas. There's so much that. There's so much. I knew there. I knew you had something here right now. There's a lot of good too. So I don't want to, you know, come down on all the bad and it sound like there hasn't been good. There is a lot of goodness that has happened there. But some of the things that I think are really troubling ore. For example, we still, despite the technologies ability to trigger communications based on action to segment people in very specific and detailed ways, we still largely send the same communication to large groups of people and some cases the same communication to everybody. We've the system makes it easy to do that and so we as an industry have not been very disciplined about sending the right message to the person that's going to care in this moment of time, in this context. So I think that's one one really obvious area. The second thing that I think the technology has let us do is create a false sense of knowing someone. We have not done a good job of using marketing automation to integrate knowledge that we have about someone from across all the touch points. The conversations of salesperson...

...have are largely independent of the marketing communications that we send out are very different than the chat discussions that might be happening on our website and, with few exceptions, are we doing a good job of looking holistically at a buyer or even at an account if you're doing account base marketing and treating that as a unique siload thing, and the reason we don't is because that's extra work. It requires manual intervention. Technology is amazing, but it needs people and process and thoughtfulness around data models and things to do the hard, sophisticated work. I believe we because marketing automation has become so easy to use, we'd eased it, used it in the easysiest ways and we've short changed the potential that those systems really surfaced for us. It's actually quite a shame. So let's go to any misunderstanding between ai so automation. I think a lot of people are looking at automation and some even some personalization. Let's see machine driven personalization, and I think there's a lot of confusion around what AI is. Can you just kind of separate like where's the line or what are you know, make it as explicit as possible. Where does AI leave automation and some of these other things? Just leave them behind it and to a next level? Well, if you were to believe all the marketing that we're subjected to and every vendors claims everything is ai right, it's totally attached to everything. The reality is, to me, the distinction is actually relatively simple, which is automation is rules based. We tell a system a bunch of rules and executes against that. Now it could be a sophisticated set of rules, it could be a nested set of rules, it could be a lot of if then comparison, but you still have to tell the system rules to follow. Artificial intelligence is not rules based. It actually builds a system that learns and predicts and takes action independent of rules. Now we may apply some rules as parameters, and we should. You put some rules around those systems to make sure that they don't embarrass us or hurt someone in some unintentional way or say something that we would consider deeply offensive. Right, but it's still fundamentally the difference is that it learns and acts without us predetermining all the various scenarios that might exist. Great, do you have just to draw this out one step further? Do you have an project that you worked on recently where the implementation involved a good, healthy use, because you offered some caution there as we got into Ai, a good healthy approach to ai. Yeah, I think probably the easiest and most common examples website personalization. Website personalization can be a ruled...

...based system where I go in and say everyone who belongs to this set of companies or everyone who comes from this geography, we serve this home page brander versus something else. Right, that's a that's a typical scenario. Most personalization engine today, however, do much, much more sophisticated things that allow us to look at behavior on a site and not just I could. Here's what we have agreed. We're going to send to segment a, but over time to look how does segment a behave and what might I change based on that behavior? And well, who is segment a really made up of? There's probably hundreds or thousands of people in there. They're not all like one behavior set. So how do we break that down further? And that website personalization technology is one of the first, I think, machine learning driven systems to really be widely adopted and is really powerful and changing the interaction I have from one person to another, and no human cood keep up, no no matter how small our website traffic is. We realistically could not sit there and monitor and figure out what to deliver to everybody different on my website. A's whether it's a hundred people who visit my website or a hundred thousand in a given day. I can't manually do that. I need technology to help serve that and it's incredibly powerful when it does. It's a great example. I love it. Now let's switch again. Unleash possible a marketing playbook that drive sales. I have a couple questions for you before I get to their main thesis, main premise, what we're trying to tackle here. When you decided I'm going to get this thing done, what were you trying to communicate to the world or share? Yeah, you know, unleash possible is really born out of two things. One was I've been doing this job and things for a number of years and I had all these ideas about what I believe that had been worn out of a lot of hard work, and so part of it was designed to lots of books inspired people. I wanted to teach people how to do things and how to think about it, and so the goal of unleashed possible was really designed to force me into being really clear about how I approach challenges and how to solve them. The second thing was I've been doing consulting practice now for seven years. At the time that the book was published, five years and not everyone who would seek me out could I serve. Sometimes they were too small to be able to Ford a consultant like myself, or the timing didn't work out that I had the band with or had a colleague who had the bandwidth to help out, lots of different reasons, and I always felt bad about saying hey, let's have coffee and then that was it. I always felt like there should be more than I could offer, and so unleashed possible was a way to do that. And then the third...

...and final reason was I work with a lot of marketing leaders, of course, but I also work with a lot of sales leaders and CEOS in my practice and they don't understand marketing to the same depth as the people who work for them that run marketing and a lot of their they don't know how to therefore drive marketing in an effective way, and so unleashed possible was as much about helping those business leaders who really wanted to maximize the impact their marketing teams would be having and weren't expert enough to know what questions to always ask, to know how to measure the team, to know how to drive it, and so this was designed to help them achieve that and to help the people who work for them who were trying to do the right things, show them that these are the right things and here's why, and really be a tool to help build those bridges between different functions in a company so important to the customer experience, as well to provide some translation in some liaison type functions there through the book. One of the most marketers understand, misunderstand rather or not know about sales people. As you're talking, you're talking about building this bridge to the marketer. What would you say about salespeople that they may overlooked or take for granted or not be able to to truly empathize with? You know, I think, and I've done this in my career, I actually started my career in sales and then move to marketing, and I mean you've been guilty of this. We sort of think of sales people as coin operated right like that. They don't understand and they're always looking for the quick fix, and as marketers we don't always empathize with the frontline work that the sales team does, and there are salespeople out there who don't do a great job and don't learn along the way. But most sales people have more intelligent conversations, have more knowledge to share with us, and I think we give them credit for and this sort of belief that sales people are lazy is really an unfair cud there are lazy sales people, there are lazy marketers, they're lazy. Everything right, but the stereotype of them being lazy, I think gives marketers a disservices by believing that and that it holds us back from actually bridging a gap between sales and marketing. Totally agree. I think I mean just for the marketers listening, your next five blog posts or webinars or whatever could be driven exclusively by what sales people are hearing on the phones every day, what's hanging them up and what people are wondering about, etc. Let's flip that for the sales folks, the sales leaders and even executives that you've worked with over the years. What do they not know, or what do they misunderstand, or what are they tend to overlook about marketing and marketers? I think most sales people are almost like bouncers right. They sort of stopped us from having we have to seek their permission before we talked to a buyer. We have to conjole them into letting us have time and we have to sort of tiptoe around it, and I think it's because they don't believe that marketers are...

...going to add value to the process of a communication they're having with the customer and they don't want us to disrupt what's happening, and I think it's it's an unfortunate scenario that has been born out of the fact for a lot of marketers don't talk to customers. They sort of go off and there in their practice are in their function, and it's a huge mistake. If we can kind of get over these terrible stereotypes we have about each other and always be looking out on behalf of the buyer community and both having a perspective and a value on that, it's great. I'll give you a very simple example of how I think this can surface and an organization. It is almost too simple of an example, but I see it every day, which is because we don't think salespeople really take the time to understand their buyers and because we think salespop. We're always looking for a shortcut and because we measure on them by the number of phone calls they set, number of meetings that they have. We do things like give them templates to send out their email communication. But in fact we know, undoubtedly without any debate, that personalized communications convert more people than templates, and finding and replacing somebody's name and industry is not personalization. Thank you right. So we as marketers could make a really easy decision, which is I'm not going to give you a template anymore. I'm going to teach you what talk triggers are going to be valuable. I'm going to help give you assets that you can leverage. I'm going to talk to Buns of customers and give you hot buttons that you might be able to leverage. I'm going to give examples of good things. But we create a crutch that gets used and then we get upset when it gets used. So these are the kinds of things that are actually relatively easy to implement if we trust each other and we accept environments were both we're going to make mistakes and some communications aren't going to be perfect, but will learn from those imperfect communications more than we're learning by encouraging the use of templates. That aren't doing a very good job of attracting people. That's great. I also love your unifying message of if we're both acting sales and marketing, if we're both acting in the best interests of our customers, in future customers, it's all going to work out fine too. And it's funny how far just a little exposure will go. I've been on both sides of that where you know, a few marketers will a new sales people over there complaining, vice versa. That so I want to bring these walls down because, again, if we can unify around what's in the best interest of our of our customers, it'll generally all work out. Hey, we are all about relationships here on the podcast and and at bomb bomb, and so I always like to give you a chance to think or mention someone or multiple people that's happened before to WHO's had a really positive impact on your life or your career, as well as a company who you feel is doing customer experience really well. You know, I'm a really wonderfully...

...lucky human being that I've had a lot of amazing people influence my work, give me opportunities and learn things from, and so I will not list or an even attempt to list a fraction of those people, because we would be here a very, very long time. But I do want to call out someone that has had an impact very early in my career because I think it's an interesting lesson for all of us as were managing teams and we're learning and we're growing our staff and such an it was a generally named Jeff Holly, and the reason I am so lucky to have had jeff in my life is when I started working for him I had a college degree in economics and zero experience doing anything right. I had I had, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but I'd have never had a professional, full time job, certainly not working for a technology company that I was doing at the time, and Jeff, for whatever reason, whether he was crazy or saw something in me, gave me the opportunity to own things and, in one case, to rock create and run a government partner program something the company had never had. It was far bigger than someone with my experience ever should have done, but he gave me the opportunity to learn, to make mistakes, to grow, to involve other people in the company and he gave me the authority so that I could just as easily walk into the CFO's office and ask a question to get them involved. This something as the legal council that I worked with as a salesperson who is on the shop floor, and I think we've gotten a little away from that and marketing and we've tended to be really functionally siloed and we tend to say you own a channel or you own a campaign, and we're missing an opportunity to grow well rounded marketers who can understand how all these pieces fit together and really emphasize with buyers and be this strategic force that drives US Ford. So I'd always like to give Jeff a shout out. He's he's doing many other things now than when we first work together, but what he did for me, I think we need to do more and more of love it. How about a company WHO's surprised you, delighted you or just been rock solid consistent over some period of time? Yeah, I'm going to give you two examples. One is not a long duration but it happened very recently, so I think it's worth calling out. I was actually at bbmx conference in Scottsdale, Arizona recently and it was wonderful conference. But what was remarkable to me is I have asthma and sometimes when I'm speaking I need to use what's nebulizer treatment, and it's not really important that you understand all of that, but what was important is they were the hotel was at full capacity and I wanted to late check out so that I could take a treatment right before I went on stage and I could trake a treatment right after I went on state before I went to the airport. And I called down the front ask and they're like, you know, we're really booked up. We...

...just can't accommodate you. I'll give you one hour. I actually needed three hours to make this all work and I said all right, well, I completely understand that. That that is knowledgeable, and they said, well, we can charge you three hundred fifty dollars to give you a now, you know, two hours instead of one still wasn't going to meet what I needed. It okay, well, just let me know where I can have privacy for my treatment that has a plant. I can't really use a bathroom because I need an electric socket, and I'll do somebody's office. I don't care. I just, you know, need a place and I'd like a little privacy. I don't want to be doing is the original suggestion was, well, there's over by the pool table in the labby there's a plug and you can sit on you know, drag it her and wasn't really what I wanted to do. Don't we chatted for a couple minutes. He was very nice and he puts me on home when he comes back. You know what, you've got the room till three o'clock. It just talked to my manager. Given the circumstance, we're going to give it to you. We'll get the cleaning staff to come and right after you leave. And you know what, in the seam of things, they didn't have to do that. They were perfectly within their rights to not do that. They could have made me sit on the floor and somebody's office. They there's a there's a million scenarios where that work. But they you know, the height made that one little step that dramatically made my stay. They're better. I mean it had a I just like physically and mentally breathe easier. So the other example I'll give you is wayfarer, and I think this is a really good example because wayfarer is a company that I've used many times. For those who don't know, they sell furniture and Patios and pillows and all kinds of things and I've used them many times for many things. And I bought these chairs that I did not when they came. I didn't think they worked very well. I didn't like the way the paint job was and I called them up and immediately said to me, no problem, what do you like? I said, well, you know what, there's actually a different model I like better. I actually would love to replace these with another one. What's the difference in cost? They were generally saying. They actually told me to keep the old chairs and donate them to someone that could use them. I mean one are amazings are taken. So not only did I get the chairs I love more that I found afterwards totally my fault. They didn't harass me about returning the old set of chairs, and they gave me this opportunity to donate them, which I did, to someone else who could make use of them, because it was, you know, nothing wrong with them structurally. There was a little paint that I didn't like. Right. So what a great experience, and I've had two or three experiences, not as dramatic as that in terms of meeting me, but they've always been there for me. They've always done the right thing. And you know what was beautiful about it? They didn't put me on hold, they didn't talk to a manager. The Customer Server Rep who was on the phone with me was empowered to decide to do this, and that, to me, was it particularly special experience because, true or not, I felt like they cared that. I don't know if there was a manager hovering over their shoulder, you know, clipping in their air, but to me what it felt like is, Hey, I'm a customer that they value. They're not going to question my integrity and my reason for returning.

They made it easy and they allowed me to do something really good. As such a great story, because I assume that when you donated them you were able to name drop them. I'm sure if you're telling me that story right now, you've probably told it other times before, and just think about how easy that is. And so I don't know what the price point is, but it seems like a very inexpensive way to do all. Like you said, do the right thing. Yeah, you know that in the net result is unmeasurable. Yeah, you know, the chairs were, you know, not trivial. It was probably six hundred dollars worth of furniture to done it. It was significant. I'm sure that you know their margin on that. It was less cost than the money I was paying, but it wasn't like hey, it's a notepad that I'm returning. It was substantial, but I go back and I buy more and it probably would have cost them not as much, for close to it, to reprocess the inventory, to pay for the shipping to come back, the hassle it would have created for me to have to box these chairs back up and wait for somebody to pick them up. It was it was a remarkable thing for them to do and to make it feel so natural. It's not just if they did it. I didn't fight for it, I didn't argue with anyone. It was so part of their DNA and that, to me, has made me really fall in love with them and I do talk about it and I buy more things from them. Acting with the customers best interest in mind, it seems like you we'd be hard to go wrong following that. This has been an absolute pleasure. Samantha. If someone wants to connect with you, or they want to learn more about unleash possible or they want to learn more about the marketing advisory network. Where are some ways people can catch up with you too? Simplest ways so you can go to unleash possiblecom and there's all kinds of information in there about the book. It also will connect you to the marketing advisory network site if you are interested in more information about the Celtic practice and Linkedin. I'm a really active linkedin loser. I welcome people to reach out ask questions. I love nothing more than when somebody who's listened to a podcast or read the book reaches out and ask questions about how to apply it to their own business. So I encourage people to please do so. Awesome will. I appreciate your time so much. I encourage people to do that as well. I appreciate you so much and I hope your evening meeting goes as well as this conversation. I appreciate you. Oh, thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're entrusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. rehumanize the experience by getting face to face through simple personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so much for listening.

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