The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

14. Automation, AI, and Human Relationships with Samantha Stone

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you think a checked box on a survey or net promoter score is an accurate customer satisfaction metric, you’re in trouble.

So says Samantha Stone, the founder and CMO of the Marketing Advisory Network. She's the author of Unleash Possible: A Marketing Playbook That Drives Sales, and a regular conference speaker. Stone has worked in marketing, product marketing, partner marketing, and brings a great wealth of experience to this podcast.

Abstractly speaking, customer experience is any interaction between a brand/vendor and buyers, prospects, or customers. It can involve placing an order, or taking receipt of a delivered item. It could be a conversation, or an event one attended.

There's a second definition in many organizations. Because those interactions happen in so many different places, they create a function that is responsible for the intersection of customers across different touch points. That's really important because otherwise you see inconsistent interactions. Sales operates differently than marketing, which operates differently than support, which operates differently than order fulfillment, etc.

The ultimate measure is customer lifetime value. Are we delivering to our customers and ways that enhance our relationship, makethem come back for more increase what they spend with us, both in termsof their time and their money? You're listening to the customer experience podcast,a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout thecustomer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customers success. Experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here'syour host, Ethan Butte. Thank you so much for clicking play. Onthis episode of the Customer Experience Podcast. Today we're joined by the founder andCMO of the marketing advisory network. She's been at it for seven years now. She's the author of unleash possible, and I love the subtitle, amarketing playbook that drives sales. She's a regular conference speaker. She's worked inmarketing, product marketing, partner marketing. Brings a great wealth of experience tothe show. Samantha Stone, welcome, thanks for having me. I lovetalking about customer experience. It's something that is deeply important to all of us, no matter what our function is in an organization. Awesome. Totally agree. And so let's just start with what's tead right up in front of us. From your perspective, how would you define customer experience? Where are someof US characteristics? What does it look like? What does it feel like? When I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? Thatis probably unintentionally so, a loaded question, but I'm going to answer it intwo different ways and I hope you don't mind. I don't. Thefirst way I'm going to answer it is much more abstract, which is customerexperience to me is any interaction between a brand of vendor and someone who buyssomething from them or that they serve, and that can be when I placean order, that can be when something is delivered to me, it couldbe a conversation, it could be an event I attend. So any ofthe ways that we are interacting with buyers or prospects or customers, that tome is customer experience. Now, the reason I said that there's a seconddefinition is that in many organizations, because those interactions happen in so many differentplaces, we create a function that is responsible for the intersection of customers acrossdifferent touchpoints, and I actually believe that's really important, because what happens otherwises? We have inconsistent interactions. Sales operates differently than marketing, operates differently thansupport, that operates differently than order fulfillment, etc. Etc. So it's thisabstract thing we all touch, but it also can be a function withina company. Awesome. Now that's obviously the one of my primary motivators fortaking the podcast in this direction. How have you seen people structure that welllike? What is that function? How...

...are people titling it? What doesthat look like? I've seen it functioned and title in really dozens of differentways. I think the organizations where I find people feel most successful and mostimpactful is and when it's an executive level position, when it is not asingle person trying to champion across the entire organization and where they have authority andresponsibility to drive decisions and global metrics that everyone in the company must meet.It's not successful when it's a symbolic gesture, but it can be very effective whenwe actually treat it like a core function to the business. Sounds exactlyright. What, from a metric standpoint? You know there's some obvious ones,like MPs or customer satisfaction. What are some key things? If someone was to try to start outlining a position or imagining what it would looklike in his or her organization, what are a few key metrics that youthink capture customer experience done well? That's an excellent question. I think wehave become too dependent on metrics like customer satisfaction or MPs. They are importantindicators and, depending on where your businesses can be valuable things to measure,but there also can be very misleading. For me, the ultimate measure iscustomer lifetime value. Are we delivering to our customers and ways that enhance ourrelationship, make them come back for more, increase what they spend with us,both in terms of their time and their money. And there's a softermeasure. So that's sort of to me, sort of the ultimate financial metric.And then there's a soft for measure, is advocacy. It's one thing forcustomers to answer an NPS survey. I will recommend you to appear.It's actually something different to actually tangibly see. Do we have references? Do theyget quoted in stories. Do they talk to their friends? Do weget referrals into our sales centers and our customer support centers that come from somewhereelse? Do we see people talking about us in positive ways and social mediaand when we go to events, as their buzz around us? That advocacyis sometimes harder to measure in, you know, very specific ways, butwe know when we're trending up and we know when we're not, and Ithink that's as important as that lifetime customer metric and certainly more valuable than justan mpscore sitting independent of other things. Very insightful why we dived right in, by the way. So let's back out a minute. Talk to mea little bit about the Marketing Advisory Network for context for the folks listening.You know, what do you what are you doing? What are you workingon? What is that all about? Excellent, I'm glad you're at so. At the Marketing Advisory Network we work with businesses that have complex products andservices. So that is often businesses that sell the other businesses, but occasionallyit's a consumer organization. We specialize and...

...helping organizations think through the customer journey, think through their sales and marketing alignment and their strategy plan, product launches, do all these sort of complex things that allow us to grow our businessesand go after new markets and things like that. So we have, youknow, research component of our business, we have a content strategy and developmentportion of the business and we have a real sales and marketing, demand generationssort of component of what we do. The reason I love it is thatwe get to touch lots of different businesses and we get to see lots ofexamples of things that are working and lots of examples of things that are notworking, and we get to observe and participate in things and cross pollinate acrossbusinesses. So one month we might be working with an accounting software company,another month we might be working in a love sciences division or a publishing businessor sometimes, you know, overlapping in the same month, and that givesus tremendous exposure to different types of customer service, different types of customer engagements, and it allows it's not only to bring our own interactions as consumers ourselvesand as business people who buy things ourselves, but to see these really wide varietyand take the best of what we see in one place and try andapply it where it makes sense in another place, and that's that's really funand rewarding. That sounds very fun. It's you know, all the researcharound diversity and how it produces results. It sounds like you've got that bakedin just in the customer base that you're working and just different minds, differentapproaches, different backgrounds, different problems. Complexity is a word that is associatedwith the work they use. You just used it like a complex selling processor a complex parct. What is complex mean to you in this scenario?How does someone know, because I'm sure various times of the day even someonein a relatively simple business can feel like how this is complex and overwhelming.Talk about complex the way you prefer to use it. Yeah, that's areally good point. Everything is complex to some degree, but in our worldwe're talking about typically scenarios where there are multiple people helping make an influence adecision. Typically the decisions take multiple steps in time. So I don't it'son an impulse decision. It's a decision that is thoughtful. In research,there's comparison and venders, there's comparison of approaches. It often takes weeks ormonths, although not always, and decisions that impact people's jobs or their functionin a meaningful way. So it's really important what kind of coffee someone hasin the office right. That is a meaningful impact in the in the office, in the culture of the company. But those aren't typically the kinds ofdecisions we help with. Typically the kinds of decisions we help what there oneswhere it is we sell something hard to explain and we sell something that canhave multiple value propositions to different people, and so helping make sense of allof that and figuring out how all that fits together is the area that wemost often spend our time with. I love that. It sounds like areally fun puzzle to constantly build. So...

...you have a specialty of switching gearsa little bit. You did a really, really cool program at MIT's Sloan Schoolof management in artificial intelligence and it's implications for business and business strategy.So I want to spend a little bit of time there because I have afeeling you're going to be very informative, in a very current and smart way, about something that I think most businesses are trying to figure out, whichis the balance between humans and technology. How do they complement each other.When is it okay to let the machine do the lifting? When does ahuman need to intervene and make a true personal touch? So just fire usoff on in a conversational direction, on on the roll of Ai in indelivering customer experience and building relationships with our customers, in our future customers.This is such an important area of topic because I am desperate to make surethat we, as business leaders and marketers, don't repeat the mistakes we did withmarketing automation, and the consequences of making similar mistakes with this technology arereally dramatic. We have massive issues of trust with our communities really, nomatter what you sell or do, and artificial intelligence has the opportunity to doamazing things to improve that. But it also, if used incorrectly, couldmake that trust divide even worse. And so for me there's a couple ofreally foundational truth that we all must understand, and the first is that artificial intelligenceis not designed, or should not be used to replace humans. Itshould be used to enhance relationships. In some cases that means doing the workthat a person might otherwise. For example, talking to a human is often overrated. When I simply want to know when my contract expiration date isor tell me what the phone number is to get to support or help.The Register for this web semin are coming up. I actually don't need tospeak to a person to do that. It's very clear and I can doit when I want and a machine can helply do that. But there areother instances where it's really clear that talking to a machine is the wrong thingto do. When I'm in the middle of a crisis. I had aclient whose web site went down. I don't you know that moment in time, no matter how simple it was to solve getting their website back up,they needed to talk to a person, which is emotional driven moment of crisisand we want to interact with this person. There's also instances where we can improvehuman interaction by using technology. For example, artificial intelligence can help peoplewho are in a call center, at a call interact with the person they'retalking to more effectively. They're not talking to machine, they're still talking toa human, but we're making the human conversation better, and so there islots and lots of ways where we can use that technology. The second areathat I plead and it will probably be be a broken record for a verylong time on this, but this is...

...about transparency. It is really,really tempting to pretend that my machine is a human, to pretend the chatbought has a picture of a person in a name and pretend I'm talking toa person, or to have an automatic all routing system pretend it's a humanon the other side. And there's lots and lots of examples. We createemail blast that we pretend come from someone right, lots of ways that wedo this today. It is so dangerous and it's so disruptive to building trustwith customers that we have to have the discipline not to do that, evenwhen it feels easy. And so I'm a really, really believer that ifwe want to use the potential of artificial intelligence, we have to be incrediblytransparent about where we're using it and when we're using it, and we haveto hold back scenarios that feel wrong. We know we know when things arewrong. Some things are obvious, like because we have laws that regulate howwe can use information and when we can communicate with people, and sometimes wejust need to use our good judgment and it's our job as marketers to enforcethat with an organization's so good. I mean what where you are right there, is is the golden rule, which is represented, and any organized systemof thought or religion has some version of the golden rule and it's because it'sit works in every scenario here. Why would we do things to our customersthat we would not want done to us as customers? I have a feelingfor the marketers that are listening. Yeah, you really kind of like spike someinterest there with I hope we don't make the same mistakes we've made withmarketing automation. So let's go back there for just when. I have afeeling that the way you talked about Aii, there that is going to be aroundtrust. But what are a few key things that we've done with marketingautomation that we're done easily done wrong or probably still being done wrong today.It's there's so many areas. There's so much that. There's so much.I knew there. I knew you had something here right now. There's alot of good too. So I don't want to, you know, comedown on all the bad and it sound like there hasn't been good. Thereis a lot of goodness that has happened there. But some of the thingsthat I think are really troubling ore. For example, we still, despitethe technologies ability to trigger communications based on action to segment people in very specificand detailed ways, we still largely send the same communication to large groups ofpeople and some cases the same communication to everybody. We've the system makes iteasy to do that and so we as an industry have not been very disciplinedabout sending the right message to the person that's going to care in this momentof time, in this context. So I think that's one one really obviousarea. The second thing that I think the technology has let us do iscreate a false sense of knowing someone. We have not done a good jobof using marketing automation to integrate knowledge that we have about someone from across allthe touch points. The conversations of salesperson...

...have are largely independent of the marketingcommunications that we send out are very different than the chat discussions that might behappening on our website and, with few exceptions, are we doing a goodjob of looking holistically at a buyer or even at an account if you're doingaccount base marketing and treating that as a unique siload thing, and the reasonwe don't is because that's extra work. It requires manual intervention. Technology isamazing, but it needs people and process and thoughtfulness around data models and thingsto do the hard, sophisticated work. I believe we because marketing automation hasbecome so easy to use, we'd eased it, used it in the easysiestways and we've short changed the potential that those systems really surfaced for us.It's actually quite a shame. So let's go to any misunderstanding between ai soautomation. I think a lot of people are looking at automation and some evensome personalization. Let's see machine driven personalization, and I think there's a lot ofconfusion around what AI is. Can you just kind of separate like where'sthe line or what are you know, make it as explicit as possible.Where does AI leave automation and some of these other things? Just leave thembehind it and to a next level? Well, if you were to believeall the marketing that we're subjected to and every vendors claims everything is ai right, it's totally attached to everything. The reality is, to me, thedistinction is actually relatively simple, which is automation is rules based. We tella system a bunch of rules and executes against that. Now it could bea sophisticated set of rules, it could be a nested set of rules,it could be a lot of if then comparison, but you still have totell the system rules to follow. Artificial intelligence is not rules based. Itactually builds a system that learns and predicts and takes action independent of rules.Now we may apply some rules as parameters, and we should. You put somerules around those systems to make sure that they don't embarrass us or hurtsomeone in some unintentional way or say something that we would consider deeply offensive.Right, but it's still fundamentally the difference is that it learns and acts withoutus predetermining all the various scenarios that might exist. Great, do you havejust to draw this out one step further? Do you have an project that youworked on recently where the implementation involved a good, healthy use, becauseyou offered some caution there as we got into Ai, a good healthy approachto ai. Yeah, I think probably the easiest and most common examples websitepersonalization. Website personalization can be a ruled...

...based system where I go in andsay everyone who belongs to this set of companies or everyone who comes from thisgeography, we serve this home page brander versus something else. Right, that'sa that's a typical scenario. Most personalization engine today, however, do much, much more sophisticated things that allow us to look at behavior on a siteand not just I could. Here's what we have agreed. We're going tosend to segment a, but over time to look how does segment a behaveand what might I change based on that behavior? And well, who issegment a really made up of? There's probably hundreds or thousands of people inthere. They're not all like one behavior set. So how do we breakthat down further? And that website personalization technology is one of the first,I think, machine learning driven systems to really be widely adopted and is reallypowerful and changing the interaction I have from one person to another, and nohuman cood keep up, no no matter how small our website traffic is.We realistically could not sit there and monitor and figure out what to deliver toeverybody different on my website. A's whether it's a hundred people who visit mywebsite or a hundred thousand in a given day. I can't manually do that. I need technology to help serve that and it's incredibly powerful when it does. It's a great example. I love it. Now let's switch again.Unleash possible a marketing playbook that drive sales. I have a couple questions for youbefore I get to their main thesis, main premise, what we're trying totackle here. When you decided I'm going to get this thing done,what were you trying to communicate to the world or share? Yeah, youknow, unleash possible is really born out of two things. One was I'vebeen doing this job and things for a number of years and I had allthese ideas about what I believe that had been worn out of a lot ofhard work, and so part of it was designed to lots of books inspiredpeople. I wanted to teach people how to do things and how to thinkabout it, and so the goal of unleashed possible was really designed to forceme into being really clear about how I approach challenges and how to solve them. The second thing was I've been doing consulting practice now for seven years.At the time that the book was published, five years and not everyone who wouldseek me out could I serve. Sometimes they were too small to beable to Ford a consultant like myself, or the timing didn't work out thatI had the band with or had a colleague who had the bandwidth to helpout, lots of different reasons, and I always felt bad about saying hey, let's have coffee and then that was it. I always felt like thereshould be more than I could offer, and so unleashed possible was a wayto do that. And then the third...

...and final reason was I work witha lot of marketing leaders, of course, but I also work with a lotof sales leaders and CEOS in my practice and they don't understand marketing tothe same depth as the people who work for them that run marketing and alot of their they don't know how to therefore drive marketing in an effective way, and so unleashed possible was as much about helping those business leaders who reallywanted to maximize the impact their marketing teams would be having and weren't expert enoughto know what questions to always ask, to know how to measure the team, to know how to drive it, and so this was designed to helpthem achieve that and to help the people who work for them who were tryingto do the right things, show them that these are the right things andhere's why, and really be a tool to help build those bridges between differentfunctions in a company so important to the customer experience, as well to providesome translation in some liaison type functions there through the book. One of themost marketers understand, misunderstand rather or not know about sales people. As you'retalking, you're talking about building this bridge to the marketer. What would yousay about salespeople that they may overlooked or take for granted or not be ableto to truly empathize with? You know, I think, and I've done thisin my career, I actually started my career in sales and then moveto marketing, and I mean you've been guilty of this. We sort ofthink of sales people as coin operated right like that. They don't understand andthey're always looking for the quick fix, and as marketers we don't always empathizewith the frontline work that the sales team does, and there are salespeople outthere who don't do a great job and don't learn along the way. Butmost sales people have more intelligent conversations, have more knowledge to share with us, and I think we give them credit for and this sort of belief thatsales people are lazy is really an unfair cud there are lazy sales people,there are lazy marketers, they're lazy. Everything right, but the stereotype ofthem being lazy, I think gives marketers a disservices by believing that and thatit holds us back from actually bridging a gap between sales and marketing. Totallyagree. I think I mean just for the marketers listening, your next fiveblog posts or webinars or whatever could be driven exclusively by what sales people arehearing on the phones every day, what's hanging them up and what people arewondering about, etc. Let's flip that for the sales folks, the salesleaders and even executives that you've worked with over the years. What do theynot know, or what do they misunderstand, or what are they tend to overlookabout marketing and marketers? I think most sales people are almost like bouncersright. They sort of stopped us from having we have to seek their permissionbefore we talked to a buyer. We have to conjole them into letting ushave time and we have to sort of tiptoe around it, and I thinkit's because they don't believe that marketers are...

...going to add value to the processof a communication they're having with the customer and they don't want us to disruptwhat's happening, and I think it's it's an unfortunate scenario that has been bornout of the fact for a lot of marketers don't talk to customers. Theysort of go off and there in their practice are in their function, andit's a huge mistake. If we can kind of get over these terrible stereotypeswe have about each other and always be looking out on behalf of the buyercommunity and both having a perspective and a value on that, it's great.I'll give you a very simple example of how I think this can surface andan organization. It is almost too simple of an example, but I seeit every day, which is because we don't think salespeople really take the timeto understand their buyers and because we think salespop. We're always looking for ashortcut and because we measure on them by the number of phone calls they set, number of meetings that they have. We do things like give them templatesto send out their email communication. But in fact we know, undoubtedly withoutany debate, that personalized communications convert more people than templates, and finding andreplacing somebody's name and industry is not personalization. Thank you right. So we asmarketers could make a really easy decision, which is I'm not going to giveyou a template anymore. I'm going to teach you what talk triggers aregoing to be valuable. I'm going to help give you assets that you canleverage. I'm going to talk to Buns of customers and give you hot buttonsthat you might be able to leverage. I'm going to give examples of goodthings. But we create a crutch that gets used and then we get upsetwhen it gets used. So these are the kinds of things that are actuallyrelatively easy to implement if we trust each other and we accept environments were bothwe're going to make mistakes and some communications aren't going to be perfect, butwill learn from those imperfect communications more than we're learning by encouraging the use oftemplates. That aren't doing a very good job of attracting people. That's great. I also love your unifying message of if we're both acting sales and marketing, if we're both acting in the best interests of our customers, in futurecustomers, it's all going to work out fine too. And it's funny howfar just a little exposure will go. I've been on both sides of thatwhere you know, a few marketers will a new sales people over there complaining, vice versa. That so I want to bring these walls down because,again, if we can unify around what's in the best interest of our ofour customers, it'll generally all work out. Hey, we are all about relationshipshere on the podcast and and at bomb bomb, and so I alwayslike to give you a chance to think or mention someone or multiple people that'shappened before to WHO's had a really positive impact on your life or your career, as well as a company who you feel is doing customer experience really well. You know, I'm a really wonderfully...

...lucky human being that I've had alot of amazing people influence my work, give me opportunities and learn things from, and so I will not list or an even attempt to list a fractionof those people, because we would be here a very, very long time. But I do want to call out someone that has had an impact veryearly in my career because I think it's an interesting lesson for all of usas were managing teams and we're learning and we're growing our staff and such anit was a generally named Jeff Holly, and the reason I am so luckyto have had jeff in my life is when I started working for him Ihad a college degree in economics and zero experience doing anything right. I hadI had, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but I'd have neverhad a professional, full time job, certainly not working for a technology companythat I was doing at the time, and Jeff, for whatever reason,whether he was crazy or saw something in me, gave me the opportunity toown things and, in one case, to rock create and run a governmentpartner program something the company had never had. It was far bigger than someone withmy experience ever should have done, but he gave me the opportunity tolearn, to make mistakes, to grow, to involve other people in the companyand he gave me the authority so that I could just as easily walkinto the CFO's office and ask a question to get them involved. This somethingas the legal council that I worked with as a salesperson who is on theshop floor, and I think we've gotten a little away from that and marketingand we've tended to be really functionally siloed and we tend to say you owna channel or you own a campaign, and we're missing an opportunity to growwell rounded marketers who can understand how all these pieces fit together and really emphasizewith buyers and be this strategic force that drives US Ford. So I'd alwayslike to give Jeff a shout out. He's he's doing many other things nowthan when we first work together, but what he did for me, Ithink we need to do more and more of love it. How about acompany WHO's surprised you, delighted you or just been rock solid consistent over someperiod of time? Yeah, I'm going to give you two examples. Oneis not a long duration but it happened very recently, so I think it'sworth calling out. I was actually at bbmx conference in Scottsdale, Arizona recentlyand it was wonderful conference. But what was remarkable to me is I haveasthma and sometimes when I'm speaking I need to use what's nebulizer treatment, andit's not really important that you understand all of that, but what was importantis they were the hotel was at full capacity and I wanted to late checkout so that I could take a treatment right before I went on stage andI could trake a treatment right after I went on state before I went tothe airport. And I called down the front ask and they're like, youknow, we're really booked up. We...

...just can't accommodate you. I'll giveyou one hour. I actually needed three hours to make this all work andI said all right, well, I completely understand that. That that isknowledgeable, and they said, well, we can charge you three hundred fiftydollars to give you a now, you know, two hours instead of onestill wasn't going to meet what I needed. It okay, well, just letme know where I can have privacy for my treatment that has a plant. I can't really use a bathroom because I need an electric socket, andI'll do somebody's office. I don't care. I just, you know, needa place and I'd like a little privacy. I don't want to bedoing is the original suggestion was, well, there's over by the pool table inthe labby there's a plug and you can sit on you know, dragit her and wasn't really what I wanted to do. Don't we chatted fora couple minutes. He was very nice and he puts me on home whenhe comes back. You know what, you've got the room till three o'clock. It just talked to my manager. Given the circumstance, we're going togive it to you. We'll get the cleaning staff to come and right afteryou leave. And you know what, in the seam of things, theydidn't have to do that. They were perfectly within their rights to not dothat. They could have made me sit on the floor and somebody's office.They there's a there's a million scenarios where that work. But they you know, the height made that one little step that dramatically made my stay. They'rebetter. I mean it had a I just like physically and mentally breathe easier. So the other example I'll give you is wayfarer, and I think thisis a really good example because wayfarer is a company that I've used many times. For those who don't know, they sell furniture and Patios and pillows andall kinds of things and I've used them many times for many things. AndI bought these chairs that I did not when they came. I didn't thinkthey worked very well. I didn't like the way the paint job was andI called them up and immediately said to me, no problem, what doyou like? I said, well, you know what, there's actually adifferent model I like better. I actually would love to replace these with anotherone. What's the difference in cost? They were generally saying. They actuallytold me to keep the old chairs and donate them to someone that could usethem. I mean one are amazings are taken. So not only did Iget the chairs I love more that I found afterwards totally my fault. Theydidn't harass me about returning the old set of chairs, and they gave methis opportunity to donate them, which I did, to someone else who couldmake use of them, because it was, you know, nothing wrong with themstructurally. There was a little paint that I didn't like. Right.So what a great experience, and I've had two or three experiences, notas dramatic as that in terms of meeting me, but they've always been therefor me. They've always done the right thing. And you know what wasbeautiful about it? They didn't put me on hold, they didn't talk toa manager. The Customer Server Rep who was on the phone with me wasempowered to decide to do this, and that, to me, was itparticularly special experience because, true or not, I felt like they cared that.I don't know if there was a manager hovering over their shoulder, youknow, clipping in their air, but to me what it felt like is, Hey, I'm a customer that they value. They're not going to questionmy integrity and my reason for returning.

They made it easy and they allowedme to do something really good. As such a great story, because Iassume that when you donated them you were able to name drop them. I'msure if you're telling me that story right now, you've probably told it othertimes before, and just think about how easy that is. And so Idon't know what the price point is, but it seems like a very inexpensiveway to do all. Like you said, do the right thing. Yeah,you know that in the net result is unmeasurable. Yeah, you know, the chairs were, you know, not trivial. It was probably sixhundred dollars worth of furniture to done it. It was significant. I'm sure thatyou know their margin on that. It was less cost than the moneyI was paying, but it wasn't like hey, it's a notepad that I'mreturning. It was substantial, but I go back and I buy more andit probably would have cost them not as much, for close to it,to reprocess the inventory, to pay for the shipping to come back, thehassle it would have created for me to have to box these chairs back upand wait for somebody to pick them up. It was it was a remarkable thingfor them to do and to make it feel so natural. It's notjust if they did it. I didn't fight for it, I didn't arguewith anyone. It was so part of their DNA and that, to me, has made me really fall in love with them and I do talk aboutit and I buy more things from them. Acting with the customers best interest inmind, it seems like you we'd be hard to go wrong following that. This has been an absolute pleasure. Samantha. If someone wants to connectwith you, or they want to learn more about unleash possible or they wantto learn more about the marketing advisory network. Where are some ways people can catchup with you too? Simplest ways so you can go to unleash possiblecomand there's all kinds of information in there about the book. It also willconnect you to the marketing advisory network site if you are interested in more informationabout the Celtic practice and Linkedin. I'm a really active linkedin loser. Iwelcome people to reach out ask questions. I love nothing more than when somebodywho's listened to a podcast or read the book reaches out and ask questions abouthow to apply it to their own business. So I encourage people to please doso. Awesome will. I appreciate your time so much. I encouragepeople to do that as well. I appreciate you so much and I hopeyour evening meeting goes as well as this conversation. I appreciate you. Oh, thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. You'relistening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value andserving customers, you're entrusting some of your most important and valuable messages to facelessdigital communication. You can do better. rehumanize the experience by getting face toface through simple personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you nevermiss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visitbombombcom. Thank you so much for listening.

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