The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

14. Automation, AI, and Human Relationships with Samantha Stone

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you think a checked box on a survey or net promoter score is an accurate customer satisfaction metric, you’re in trouble.

So says Samantha Stone, the founder and CMO of the Marketing Advisory Network. She's the author of Unleash Possible: A Marketing Playbook That Drives Sales, and a regular conference speaker. Stone has worked in marketing, product marketing, partner marketing, and brings a great wealth of experience to this podcast.

Abstractly speaking, customer experience is any interaction between a brand/vendor and buyers, prospects, or customers. It can involve placing an order, or taking receipt of a delivered item. It could be a conversation, or an event one attended.

There's a second definition in many organizations. Because those interactions happen in so many different places, they create a function that is responsible for the intersection of customers across different touch points. That's really important because otherwise you see inconsistent interactions. Sales operates differently than marketing, which operates differently than support, which operates differently than order fulfillment, etc.

The ultimate measure is customerlifetime value. Are we delivering to our customers and ways that enhance arelationship? Make them come back for more increase, what they spend with UShoalth in terms of their time and their money? You're. Listening to the customerexperience podcast a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businessesrestore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle, getready to hear how sales marketing and customer success experts surprise anddelight and never lose sign of their customers. Humanity here is your hostbeef and beaute. Thank you. So much for clicking play onthis episode of the Customer Experience podcast today, we're joined by thefounder and CMO of the marketing advisory network she's been at it forseven years now, she's the author of unleash possible, and I love thesubtitle. A marketing playbook that drive sales she's a regular conferencespeaker she's, worked in marketing product marketing partner marketingbrings a great wealth of experience to the show Samantha Stone. Welcome.Thanks for having me, I love talking about customer experience, it something that is deeply important to all of us, no matter what our function isin an organization, awesome totally agree, and so, let's just start with,what's teed right up in front of us from your perspective, how would youdefine customer experience? What are some of this characteristics? What doesit look like? What does it feel like when I say customer experience? Whatdoes that mean to you that is probably unintentionally soaloaded question, but I'm going to answer it in two different ways, and Ihope you don't mind. I don't want the first way I'm going to answer. It ismuch more abstract which is customer. Experience to me is any interactionbetween a brand of vendor and someone who buys something from them or thatthey serve, and that can be when I place in order that can be whensomething is delivered to me. It could be a conversation, it could be an aventI attend, so any of the ways that we are interacting with buyers orprospects or customers. That to me is customer experience. Now. The reason Isaid that there's a second definition is that in many organizations, becausethose interactions happen in so many different places, we create a functionthat is responsible for the intersection of customers acrossdifferent touchpoints, and I actually believe, that's really important,because what happens t otherwises, we have inconsistent interactions. Salesoperates differently than marketing operates differently than support thatoperates differently than order fulfilment, etcetr Etca. So it's thisabstract thing we all touch, but it also can be a function. Withan, acompany awesome now thit's, obviously one of my primary motivators for takingthe podcast in this direction. How have you seen people structure that welllike what is that function? How are...

...people titling it? What does that? Looklike I've seen it functioned and title andreally dozens of different ways. I think the organizations where I findpeople feel most successful and most impactal is in when it's an executivelevel position when it is not a single person trying to champion across theentire organization and where they have authority and responsibility to drivedecisions and global metrics that everyone in the company must meet. It'snot successful. When it's symbolic gesture, but it can be very effectivewhen we actually treatit like a poor function to the business, soundsexactly right. What from a metric standpoint, you know there's someobvious ones like NPS or customer satisfaction. What are some key thingsif someone was to try to start outlining a position or imagine what itwould look like in his or organization? What are a few tmetrics that you thinkcapture customer experience done well, that's an excellent question. I thinkwe become too dependent on metrics like customer satisfaction or NPS. They areimportant indicators and depending on where your businesses can be valuablethings to measure, but theyre also can be very misleading. For me, theultimate measure is customer lifetime value. Are we delivering to ourcustomers and ways that enhance a relationship? Make them come back formore increase, what they spend with us,hoalth in terms of their time and their money and there's a softer measure. Sothat's sort of to me sort of the ultimate financial metric and thenthere's a softfare measure is advocacy. It's one thing for customers to answeron an NPS survey. I will recommend you to appear: It's actually somethingdifferent to actually tangibly see. Do we have references, do they get quotedin stories? Do they talk to their friends? Do we get referrals into oursales centers ind, our customer support centers that come from somewhere else?Do we see people talking about us in positive ways and social media, and andwhen we go to events, is ther buzz around us? That advocacy is sometimesharder to measure in you know very specific ways, but we know when we'retrending up, and we know when we're not- and I think that's as important as thatlifetime customer metric and certainly more valuable than just an NPS sqoresitting, independent of other things very insightful. Why we dived right inby the way, so, let's pack out a in it, talk to me a little bit about theMarketing Advisory Network for context for the folks listening, you know whata you! What are you doing? What are you working on? What is that all aboutexcellent? I'm glad you hat so at the marketing edvisor network. We work withbusinesses that have complex products and services, so that is oftenbusinesses that sell the other businesses, but occasionally it's aconsumer organization. We specialize in...

...helping organizations think, throughthe customer journey, think through their sales and marketing alignment andtheir strategy plan product lodges, do all these sort of complex things thatallow us to row our businesses and go after new markets, and things like that.So we have. You, know research component of our business. We have acontent strategy and development portion of the business and we have areal sales and worketing demand generation sort of component of what wedo. The reason I love it is that we get to touch lots of different businessesand we get to see lots of examples of things that are working and lots ofexamples of things that are not working and we get to observe and participatein things and cross pollinate across businesses. So when month, we might beworking with an accounint software company another month we might beworking in the Lebt, Scienceis division or a publishing, Vusiss, or sometimesyou know overlapping in the same month, and that gives us tremendous exposureto different types of customer service, different types of customer engagements,and it allows us not only to bring our own interactions as consumers ourselvesand as business people who buy things ourselves, but to see these really widevariety and take the best of what we see in one place and try and a play itwhere it makes sense in another place, and that's that's really fun andrewarding. That sounds very fun. It's you know all the research arounddiversity and how it produces results. It sounds like you've got that baked injust in the customer base that you're working and just different minds,different approaches, different backgrounds, different problems,complexity is a word that is associated with the work they use. You just usedit like a complex selling process or a complex prack. What does complex meanto you in this scenario? How does someone know because I'm sure, atvarious times of the day, even someone in a a relatively simple business canfeel like how this is complex and overwhelming talk about complex the wayyou prefer to use it yeah, that's a really good point. Everything iscomplex to some degree, but in our world we're talking about typicallyscenarios where there are multiple people helping make an influence, adecision. Typically, the decisions take multiple steps in time. So I don't it'snot an impulse decision, it's a decision that is thoughtful in research.There's comparison, anvendors, there's comparison of approaches. It oftentakes weeks or months, although not always, and decisions that impact people's jobsor their function in a meaningful way. So it's really important what kind ofcoffee someone has in the office right? That is a meaningful impact in the inthe office and the culture of the company, but those aren't typically thekinds of decisions we help with typically the kinds of decisions wehelp with our ones where it is, we sell something hard to explain and we sellsomething that can have multiple value propositions to different people and sohelping make sense of all of that and figuring out how all that fits togetheris the area that we most often spend our time with. I love that it sounds like a really funpuzzle to constantly build, so you have...

...a specialty, I'm switching gears alittle bit. You did a really really cool program at MIT Slon, School ofmanagement in artificial intelligence and its implications for business andbusiness strategy, so want to spend a little bit of time there, because Ihave a feeling you're going to be very informative in a very current and smartway about something that I think most businesses are trying to figure out,which is the balance between humans and technology. How do they compliment eachother? When is it okay to let the machine do the lifting? When does ahuman need to intervene and make a true personal touch, so just fire us off ina conversational direction on on the role of AI in in delivering customerexperience and building relationships with our customers and our futurecustomers? This is such an important area of topic, because I am desperateto make sure that we is business, leaders and marketers, don't repeat themistakes we did with marketing automation and the consequences ofmaking similar mistakes with this technology are really dramatic. We havemassive issues of trust with our communities, really, no matter what yousell or do and artificial intelligence has the opportunity to do amazingthings to improve that, but it also, if used incorrectly, could make that trustdivide even worse. Andto. For me, there's a couple of really foundationaltruths that we all must understand, and the first is that artificial intelligence is not designedor should not be used to replace humans. It should be used to enhancerelationships in some cases. That means doing the work that a person mightotherwise, for example, talking to a human is often over rated when I simplywant to know when my contract, expiration dat is or tell me what thephone number is to get to support or help e register for this web seminarcoming up, I actually don'tneed to speak to a person to do that. It's veryclear- and I can do it when I want in a machine- can otwy do that, but thereare other instances. WHECHIT's really clear. That talking to machine is thewrong thing to do. When I'm, in the middle of a crisis, I had a clientwhose web site went down. I don't you know in that moment in time, no matterhow simple it was to solve getting their website back up, they needed totalk to a person which is emotional driven moment of crisis, and we want tointeract with this person. There's also instances where we can improve humaninteraction by using technology. For example, artificial intelligence canhelp people who are in a call center ot a call interact with the person they'retalking to more effectively they're, not talking to machine they're stilltalking to a human but we're making the human conversation better. And so thereis lots and lots of ways where we can use that technology. The second areathat I plead- and it will probably be 'll, be a broken record for a very longtime on this. But this is about...

...transparency. It is really really tempting to pretendthat my machine is a human to pretend the chat. Bot has a picture of a personin a name and pretend I'm talking to a person or to have an automatic call.Routing system pretend it's a human on the other side and there's lots andlots of examples. We create email blast that wepretend to come from someoneright lots of ways that we do this day. It is so dangerous and it's so disruptive to building trust withcustomers that we have to have the discipline not to do that, even when itfeels easy. And so I'm a really really believer that if we want to use thepotential of artificial intelligence, we have to be incredibly transparentabout where we're using it and when we're using it, and we have to holdback scenarios that feel wrong. We know we know when things are wrong. Somethings are obvious like because we have laws that regulate how we can useinformation and when we can communicate with people, and sometimes we just needto use our good judgment and it's our job is marketers to enforce that withinorganizations. So good I mean where you are right,there is, is the Golden Rule Whith, which is represented, and any organizedsystem of thought or religion has some version of the golden rule? And it'sbecause it's it works in every scenaro Yore. Why would we do things to ourcustomers that we would not want done to us as customers? I have a feelingfor the marketers that are listening, yeah, you really kind of like spitesome interest there with. I hope we don't make the same mistakes we madewith marketing automation. So let's go back there for justimen. I have afeeling that the way you talked about aeither is going to be around trust,but what are a few key things that we've done with marketing automationthat were done easily done wrong or probably still being done wrong today, it'sthere's, so many areas, there's somuch that there'se so lice, I newtheb. I knew it's something here right now,there's a lot of good too. So I don't want to you know, come down all the badand sound like there. Hasa been good. There is a lot of goodness that hashappened there, but some of the things that I think are really troubling are,for example, we still despite the technology's ability to triggercommunications based on action to segment people and very specific anddetailed ways. We still largely send the same communication to large groupsof people and some cases the same communication to everybody. We, thesystem, makes it easy to do that, and so we, as in industry, have not beenvery disciplined about sending the right message to the person. That'sgoing to care in this moment of time. In this context, so I think that's oneone really obvious area. The second thing that I think the technology haslet us do is create a false sense of knowing someone. We have not done agood job of using marketing automation, to inagreat knowledge that we haveabout someone from across all the...

...touchpoints. The conversations asalesperson have are largely independent of the marketingcommunications that we send out are very different than the chat discussions that might behappening on our website and with few exceptions, are we doing a good job oflooking holistically at a buyer or even at an account if you're doing account,base marketing and treating that as a unique silod thing, and the reason wedon't is because that's extra work, it requires manual. InterventionTechnology is amazing, but it needs people and process and thoughtfulnessaround data models and things to do the Hart sophisticated work. I believe webecause marketing automation has become so easy to use. We've used, it used itin the easiest ways and we've short changed the potential that thosesystems really surfaced for us. It's actually quite a shame. So, let's go to any misunderstandingbetween AI, so automation. I think a lot of people are looking at automationand some even some personalization. Let's see machine driven,personalization and I think, there's a lot of confusion around what AI is. Canyou just kind of separate like where's the line, or what are you know, make it as explicit as possible? Wheredoes AI leave automation and some of these other things just leave thembehind it and to a next level? Well, if you were to believe all the marketingthat we're subjected to and every vendors claims, everything is ai, it'sOly attached to everything the reality is to me. The distinction is actuallyrelatively simple, which is automation is rules based. We tell a system abunch of rules and executes against that now it could be a sophisticatedset of rules. It could be a nested set of rules, it could be a loted if thencomparison, but you still have to tell the system rules to follow. Artificial intelligence is not rulesbased. It actually builds a system that learns and predicts and takes actionindependent of rules. Now we may apply some rules as parameters, and we shouldhe put some rules around those systems to make sure that they don't embarrassus or hurt someone in some unintentional way or say something thatwe would consider deeply offensive right. But it's still fundamentally,the difference is that it learns and acts without us predetermining all thevarious scenarios that might exist great. Do you have just to draw thisout one step further? Do you have a project that you worked on recently,where the implementation involved a good, healthy use, because you offeredsome caution there as we got into ai a good, healthy approach to Ai Yeah? Ithink probably the easiest and most...

...common example is website.personalization website personalization can be a ruled based system. Where I goin and say everyone who belongs to the set of companies or everyone who comesfrom this geography, we serve this home, page brander versus something elseright. That's a that's a typical semeriol, most personalization enginestoday, however, do much much more sophisticated things that allow us tolook at behavior on a site and not just a cau.Here's. What we've agreed we're going to send to Segmente but over time, tolook how toe Segmena behave and what might I change based on that behaviorand who is Segmena really made up of there's, probably hundreds or thousandsof people in there they're, not all like one behavior set. So how do webreak that down further and that website? personalization technology isone of the first. I think machine learning, driven systems to really bewidely adopted and is really powerful and changing theinteraction I have from one person to another, and no human could keep up. No,no matter how small or website traffic is. We realistically could not sitthere and monitor and figure out what to deliver. O everybody different on mywebsite as whether it's a hundred people who visit my website or ahundred thousand in a given day. I can't manually, do that. I needtechnology to help serve that and it's incredibly powerful when it does it's agreat example. I love it. NOLAT's switch again unleash possible amarketing playbook that drives sales. I have a couple questions for you beforeI get to their main thiesis main premise: what were you trying to tacklehere when you decided I'm going to get this thing done? What were you tryingto communicate to the world or share yeah? You know, unlinch possible isreally born out of two things. One was I've been doing this job and things fora number of years, and I had all these ideas about what I believed that hadbeen worn out of a lot of hard work and so part of it was designed to lots of books inspired people. I wantedto teach people how to do things and how to think about it, and so the goalof unlieaged possible is really designed to force me into being reallyclear about how I approach challenges and how to solve them. The second thingwas: I've been doing a consulting practice now for seven years. At thetime that the book was published five years and not everyone who would seekme out, could I serve sometimes they were too small to be able to forrd aconsultant like myself or the timing. Didn't work out that I hadthe band with or had a colleague who had the band lith to help out lots ofdifferent reasons, and I always felt bad about saying: Hey, let's havecoffee, and then that was it. I always felt like there should be more that Icould offer, and so unly possible was a way to do that and then the third andfinal reason was. I work with a lot of...

...marketing leaders, of course, but Ialso work with a lot of sales leaders and CEOS in my practice and they don'tunderstand marketing to the same depth as the people who work for them thatrun marketing and a lot of their. They don't know how to therefore drivemarketing in an effective way, and so ony possible was as much about helpingthose business leaders who really wanted to maximize the impact theirmarketing teams would be. Having and weren't expert enough to know whatquestions to always ask to know how to measure the team to know how to driveit, and so this was designed to help them achieve that and to help thepeople who work for them. Who are trying to do the right things show them,but these are the right things and here's why and really be a tool to helpbuild those bridges between different functions and a company so important tothe customer experience as well to provide some translation and someliason type functions there through the book. One of most marketers understandmisunderstand rather or not know about sales people as you're talking you'rtalking about building this bridge to the marketer. What would you say aboutsales people that they may overlook or take for granted or not be able totruly empathize with you know? I think, and I've done this in my career. Iactually started my career in sales and then move to marketing, and I ma havebeen guilty of this. We sort of think of sales people as qinoperated rightlike that they don't understand and they're always looking for the quicksticks and as marketers we don't onlways empathize with the frontlinework that the sales team does, and there are sales people out there whodon't do a great job and don't learn along the way. But most sales peoplehave more intelligent conversations, have more knowledge to share with us,and I think we give them credit for and this sort of belief that sales peopleare lazy is really an unfair Chris. There are lazy sales, people, Theyre,Lazy, Murcueters, Theyre Lasy, everything right, but the thestereotype of them being lazy. I think, gives marketers a disservice bybelieving that and that it holds us back from actually bridging a gapbetween sales and marketing totally agree. I think I mean just for themarketers listening your next five blog posts or webinars or whatever could bedriven exclusively by what sales people are hearing on the phones every day.What's hanging them up and what people are wondering about, etcer, let's Flit,that for the sales folks, the sales leaders and even executives a thatyou've worked with over the years. What do they not know or what do theymisunderstandor? What do they tend to overlook about marketing and marketers?I think most sales people are almost like bouncers right. They sort of stopus from happing. We have to seek their permission before we talk to a buyer.We have to conjole them into letting us have time and we have to sort of tiptoearound it, and I think it's because they don't believe that marketers aregoing to add value to the process of a...

...communication they're having with thecustomer, and they don't want us to disrupt, what's happening, and I thinkit's it's an unfortunate scenario that has been worn out of the fact fa lot ofmarketers. Don't talk to customers, they sort of go off and theyre in theirpractice area and their function. And it's a huge mistake. If we can kind ofget over these terrible stereotypes, we have about each other and always be looking out on behalf of thebuyer community and both having a perspective and a value on that. It'sgreat I'll, give you a very simple example of how I think this can surfaceand an organization. Its is almost too simple of an example, but I see itevery day, which is because we don't think sales people really take the time to understandtheir buyers and because we think Sales Corp are always looking for a shortcutand because we measure on them by the number of phone calls they set numberof meetings that they have. We do things like give them templetes to sendout their email communication, but in fact we know, undoubtedly without anydebate, that personalized communications convert more people thantemplens and finding and replacing somebody's name and industry is notpersonalization. Thank you right. So we have marketers could make a really easydecision, which is, I m, O going to give you a tentled anymore, I'm Goin toteach you what talk triggers are going to be valuable. I'm going to help giveyou assets that you can leverage I'm going to talk to a bunch of customersand give you hal buttons that you might be able to leverage I'm going to giveyou examples of good things, but we create a crutch that gets used and thenwe get upset when it gets used. So these are the kinds of things that areactually relatively easy to implementically trust each other, andwe accept environments, we're both we're going to make mistakes, and somecommunications aren't going to be perfect, but will learn from thoseimperfect communications more than we're learning by encouraging the useof templates that aren't doing a very good job of attracting people. That'sgreat. I also loved your unifying message of if we're both acting salesand marketing. If we're both acting in the best interests of our customers andfuture customers, it's all going to work out fine, too, and it's funny howfar just a little exposure will go. I've been on both sides of that, whereyou know a few marketers will getnthee BAA and you sales people over therecomplaining Vice Versu. That's Ho. I want to bring these walls down becauseagain, if we can unify around what's in the best interest of our of ourcustomers, it'll generally all work out hey. We are all about relationshipshere, on the podcast and and at Bombam, and so I always like to give you achance to thank or mention someone or multiple people. That's happened beforeto WHO's had a really positive impact on your life or your career as well asa company who you feel is doing customer experience really. Well, youknow I'm a really wonderfully lucky...

...human being that I've had a lot ofamazing people influence. My work give me opportunities and learn things from, and so I will notlist or even attempt to list a fraction of those people, because we would behere a very very long time, but I do want to call out some one that has hadan impact very early in my career, because I think it's an interestinglesson for all of us, as were managing teams and we're learning and we'regrowing our staff and such, and it was a generally named Jeff Holly and thereason I am so lucky to have had jeff in my life is when I started workingfor him. I had a college degree in economics and zero experience doinganything. Igi Had I had that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but I'd havenever had a professional full time job, certainly not working for technologycompany that I was doing at the time and Jeff for whatever reason whether hewas crazy or saw something in me gave me the opportunity to own things and,in one case, to ROK, create and run a government partner program somethingthe company had never had. It was far bigger than someone with my experienceever should have done, but he gave me the opportunity to learn to makemistakes to grow, to involve other people in the company, and it gave methe authority so that I could just as easily walk into the CFO's office andask a question to get them involved. Ith, something as the legal counsilthat I worked with as a salesperson who was on the shop floor and I think,we've gotten a little away from that in marketing and we've tended to be reallyfunctionally silow and we tend to say you own, a channel or you own, acampaign and we're missing an opportunity to grow well, roundedmarketers, who can understand how all these pieces fit together and reallyemphasize with buyers and be this strategic force that drives us forward.So I've always like to give jeff a shout out. He's he's doing many otherthings now than when we first work together, but what he did for me. Ithink we need to do more and more of love it. How about a company WHO's surprised! You delighted you or justbeen rock solid consistent over some period of time, yeah I'll. Give e giveyou two examples. One is not a long duration, but it happened very recently,so I think it's worth calling out. I was actually at btobmx conference inScott Dale Arizona recently and it was wonderful conference. But what wasremarkable to me as I have asthma, and sometimes when I'm speaking, I need touse what's neblizer treatment and it's not really important that youunderstand all of that. But what was important is they were. The hotel wasat full capacity and I wanted a late checkout so that I could take atreatment right before I went on stage and I could trake a treatment rightafter I went on state before I went to the airport and I called down the frontdesk and they're, like you know, wwere...

...really booked up. We just can'taccommodate you I'll give you one hour. I actually needed three hours to makethis all work and I said all right well, I completely understand that that thatis knowledgeable and they said well. We can charge you three hundred andfiftyars to give you an hour. You know two hours instead of one still wasn'tgoing to meet what I did. I said: okay. Well, just let me know where I can haveprivacy for my treatment that has a plug. I can't really use a bathroombecause I need an electric socket and I'll do somebody's office. I don't care,I just you know, need a place and I'd like a little privacy. I don't want tobe doing th. The riginal suggestion was well there's over by the pull table inthe lobby. There's a plug and you can sit on you know, drag it. Tragn wasn'treally what I wanted to do. Do we chatted for a couple minutes, ewas verynice, and he puts me on home and he comes back. You know what you've gotthe room til three o'clock. I just talk to my manager, given the circumstancewe're going to give it to you, we'll get the cleaning staff to come in rightafter Youleav, and you know what in the seem as like they didn't have to dothat they were perfectly within their rights to not do that. They could havemaybe sit on the floor in somebody's office like there's, there's a millionscenarios where that work, but they you know the Hyat made that one little stepthat dramatically made my stay there better. I mean, if had a I just likephysically and mentally breathed easier. So the other example I'll give. You iswayfare, and I think this is a really good example, because wayfare is acompany that I've used many times for those who don't know they sellfurniture and Patios and pillows and all kinds of things and I've used themmany times for many things, and I bought these chairs that I did not whenthey came. I didn't think they worked very well. I didn't like the way thepaint job was and I calld them up and the immediately said to me no problem.What do you like, I said? Well, you know what there's actually a differentmodel. I like better. I actually would love to replace these with another one.What's the difference in cost, they were generally saying they actuallytold me to keep the old chairs and donate them to someone that could usethem. I mean what are amazings Ar Tik. Not only did I get the chairs, I lovemore that I found afterwards totally my fault. They didn't harass me aboutreturning the old set of chairs and they gave I this opportunity to donatethem, which I did to someone else who could make use of them because it was,you know nothing wrong with them. structually, there's at paint that Ididn't like it. So what a great experence and I've had two or three experiences, not asdramatic as that in terms of meeting Wa, but they've always been there for me,they've always done the right thing, and you know whatwas beautiful about it. They didn't put me on hold. They didn't talk to amanager. The Customer Server Rep who's on the phone with me was empowered todecide to do this, and that to me was a particularly special experience because true or not, I felt like they cared. Idon't know if there was a manager hovering over their shoulder. You knowclipping in their air, but to me what it felt like is: Hey, I'm a customerthat they value they're, not going to...

...question my integrity and my reason forreturning. They made it easy and they allowed me to do something really gooda such a great story, because I assume that when you donated them, you wereable to name drop them. I'm sure if you're telling me that story right now,you've probably told it other times before and just think about how easythat is, and so I don't know what the price point is, but it seems like a very inexpensive way todo. El, like you said, do the right thing: Yeyou Knowtha in the net resultis unmeasurable yeah. You know the chairs, were, you know not trivial. Itwas probably six hundred dolar worth of furnittre want Mo to do it. It wassignificant now, I'm sure that you know they're margin on that it was less costthan the money I was paying, but it wasn't like hey. It's a note pad thatIM returning. It was substantial, but I go back and I buy more and it probablywould have cost them not as much for closhes to it to reprocess theinventory to pay for the shipping to come back. The hassle would havecreated for me to have to box these chairs back up and wait for somebody topick them up. It was. It was a remarkable thing for them to do and tomake it feel so natural, it's not just that they did it. I didn't fight for it.I didn't argue with anyone. It was so part of their DNA and that to me hasmade me really fall in love with Thim, and I do talk about it and I buy morethings from them. Acting with the customers best interestin mind, it seems, like you, we'd, be hard to go wrong following that. Thishas been an absolute pleasure sementha. If someone wants to connect with you orthey want to learn more about unleash possible or they want to learn moreabout the marketing advisory network, what are some ws? People can catch upwith you, two simplest ways. So Youcan go to unleach, possiblecom and there'sall kinds of information in there about the book. It also will connect you tothe marketing advisory network side. If you are interested in more informationabout the salting practice and Linkein a really active, linkedon loser, Iwelcome people to reach out ask questions. I love nothing more thanwhen somebody who's, listen to a podcast or read the book reaches outand ask questions about how to apply it to their own business. So I encouragepeople to please do so awesome wil. I appreciate your time so much. Iencourage people to do that as well. I appreciate you so much and I hope yourevening meeting goes as well as this conversation. I appreciate you. Ohthank you for having me this was a lot of fun. You're listening to the customerexperience podcast, no matter your role in delivering value and servingcustomers Youre intrusting. Some of your most important and valuablemessages to faceless digital communication. You can do betterrehumonize. The experience by getting face to face through simple personalvideos learn more and get started. Free at Bom, Bomcom you've been listening tothe customer experience podcast to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit Vom Bomcom.Thank you so much for listening until...

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