The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

16. Quick Ways to Create Trust with Your Customers w/ Charles Green

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Trust matters when it comes to customer experience.

People line up at the Apple Store’s Genius Bar in part because they’ve come to trust that they will get a great customer experience.

Whether you’re a B2B or B2C, how can you create trust with your customers?

To find the answers, I spoke with Charles H. Green, CEO of Trusted Advisor Associates. He's the author of Trust-Based Selling: Using Customer Focus and Collaboration to Build Long-Term Relationships and The Trusted Advisor Fieldbook: A Comprehensive Toolkit for Leading with Trust.

For Charles, you create trust by focusing on building a long-term relationship instead of focusing on the current transaction.

Charles suggests that you engage in active listening to make your prospects and customers feel like you understand how they’re feeling.

Of a gross rule in business in life, you should focus more relationships than on transactions. If you do that, the transactions come fairly naturally. You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. All right, we are going deep on this episode of the customer experience podcast into trust, because we have one of the foremost experts on trust, Charles Green, CEO of trusted advisor associates. He's been running that company for more than two dozen years. He's the author of the trusted advisor, the trusted advisor Field Book, Trust, base selling. Charlie, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you even pleasure to be here. We are obviously going to go deep on trust. It seems like it's your life's work and Gosh, if you're going to dedicate yourself to something, I can't think of too many other better themes. But I always like to start with everyone because I think the definitions vary depending on what seat ear in and what experience you've had. When I say customer experience, what comes to mind? What do you think about? What are some of its characteristics? See, what comes to my mind, and I'm biased, of course, because of that perspective on trust, that it's I immediately think full bandwidth connection. Do I understand this person as a human being or is this he had another transactional interaction with a nameless, faceless person? So to me it's an nobrainer for most relationships in business. I focus mostly on B to be but it's also tribute to see you want to have some kind of human connection. If you're able to do that, business and life just gets a whole lot better. So for you, then, if you're going to deliver a good customer experience, there needs to be a...

...trust based component, that is that is truly human to human. Yeah, I mean they're well, there are some things, let's face it, where you know, we don't mind not having a toller, we'd got to go to an adm. we don't mind interfacing with Amazon on the web because we don't want personal interactions. But short of a lot of things that don't require much. Yeah, we do need people and we don't spend money, we don't make big decisions without some kind of connection. So it is critical. It's funny, I just had a conversation with a couple people that conjured my own experience with Amazon, just because you mentioned it, where we were just working so hard to get a phone numbers. We had a question that wasn't easily resolved through the interface. You have to really work for it, but you can still pick up a opponent, speak to it and correct maybe Agario very deeply, but it is there. Yeah, and it's and it's a great helpful human on the other side. So even for those systems that are ninety nine percent automated in machine driven, personalized, albeit but still machine driven, that personal touches critical. So if you're one thing, they're just to touch on it. You mentioned that the person that the other end, when you finally got them, was really competent. So many companies underinvesting competent, super helpful, great people on the other end of the phone. I can't think of a better place to overinvest than that person. Great Call. That's the entire premise of the service profit chain is if you put all of your investment up front in internal service quality and people, hiring, recruiting, onboarding, training, equipping them and continue to build into them. Everything else falls out from there. Yeah, so your theme is obviously trust. Just be specific. Why is trust so fundamental to the customer experience? Well, if trust is a human response to risk really, and you know, almost any action in life is there is a risk component to it. You step out the door, across the street, you need somebody new, and we're not. We like to think that we're rational, calculating brainiacts all the time, but the truth is, where you know a protein based life forms who have...

...been evolved through eons to deal with the unknown, and one of the greatest ways is really trust. We very quickly suss out can I trust this person with respect to this, with respect to that? And it's as true in today's sophisticated BEDB businesses as it is, you know, a hundred years ago on the frontier. We still don't like to make decisions that are critical, that are involved money, Ego, careers and all that stuff without having some sense of trust. If it's there, it helps a lot. If it's absent, you're dealing with price and features, and it's not a very great way to hang your relationships on. That's excellent. There's almost a you're almost making them one in the same, like human relationship and human connection, that that trust is inseparable from the healthy one. Well, that's really true in you know the way trust works. It's kind of reciprocity. Think about a handshake. You reach out a handshake to someone, automatically, ninety nine, point nine of them are going to return your handshake. That gesture of reciprocity gets replicated across all kinds of little interactions that have to do with etiquette and in custom and it works that way in business, in trust too. If I take a risk and trust you, guess what you're going to do. If I treat you well, guess what you're going to do. If I treat you badly, guess what you're going to do. And so trust is a series of ways in which we craft this very fundamental person interaction with each other. You do it right, you play the game right together, you end up trusting each other and infinite number of things go better. You do it wrong, you end up with load trust and, you know the same infinite number of stuff goes down. Awesome. I just a preview. Two people listening, we are going to get to relationships that have gone bad, because there's some chances to save it and there are other times you just need to cut the line. But let's go here. You know, for someone who's maybe hasn't been intentional or conscious about trust, in my Gosh, you...

...know, should I, you know, raise this up as an important thing for myself or my team or whatever? Just talk about some of the obvious and maybe not so obvious economic or social or ethical benefits of focusing on trust and building it into some of your processes with intention? Yeah, so let's see, I mean run off. Let's do it in kind of a sales environment, just to pick one metaphor it. It happens across customer service, but other things to it, but let's let's just pick sales. If your potential customer trust to you a lot deeply, think of all the things that happen. Hey, they more likely to buy from you, be they're less likely to push back on price. See the more likely to be opened and share with you all the issues that are really going on the they're more likely to give you referrals and references whatever letter were up to. They're less likely to challenge your statements. They're more likely to cut you some slack if you make a mistake, they're more likely to forgive you, and it goes on on on. Stephen M Marcuby Jr, a sort of competitor of mine and author of the speed of trust and excellent boy. As a very simple statement, he says when trust is present, things go faster and cost less, when trust is absolute, things go slower and cost more. That covers a waterfront an issues. I think he's done a brilliant job of summarizing it. So you know there's just a touch, a few of the things that happen better when there's a trust based relationship. I loved your list there and I'm sure you could have gone on and on and on more elements, because it's just so again, fundamentally human as a need, but you really summarize it nicely there. How does someone lead with trust? How do you raise it up? What are some of the activities or actions someone can take in order to build trust quicker and to communicate again, as you said, like the way I might my posture with you, in the way I treat you is going to affect the way you look back and treat me, etc. What are some things people can do to to show those signs that build trust and that demonstrate that I trust you? Right, we should mention the thing called...

...the trust equations at some point, which touches on several things, but I'd say one thing stands out above all. There is a long rest of things. One stands out and that's very simple. It's to do a really great job of listening to the other person, and it's a particular kind of listening. I mean hardly the first persons. As a listening is important, but I'm not talking about listening that gets to twenty questions to find out the answer. I'm not talking about listening to test the hypothesis. I'm not talking about active listening, mirror and listening. It's a particular kind of listening and it is to make the other person feel heard, to make sure that the other person feels yes, you get you were paying attention to me, you understand what I was saying and to go back to that reciprocal feature that's built into us as humans. When somebody feels that way, what do they do? They returned the gesture, they emotionally say well, good, now tell me about you, and they become much more willing to listen. So there's a paradox at the heart of this stuff. If you want to be good at selling, if you want people to take your advice, if you want people to take you seriously, the best thing to do is shut up and listen to that. So ironically, you know, talking more is the wrong thing. Listening more induces them to listen when it's your turn. So that's just so far above everything else. There are a whole ton of other things, but that really deserves singling out. Something you right and speak about is curiosity. Talk a little bit about the role of curiosity here. Yeah, we have a little top ten list put together years ago of things to do and that's number one. You know, cultivate an attitude of curiosity. For one thing, one of the one of the big trust killers is what we call high self orientation, which comes in two flavors. Either it's selfishness. You know, we don't trust people who are selfish. That's really obvious. We don't run into a lot of selfish people in business, so that's not a common problem. The one that is common is that people who were rest up...

...in their own heads they're neurotically self obsessed. When they're pretending to talk to a customer, they're really thinking, oh my gosh, am I going to get to sale? That they like me, that they not like me? Are they listening to me or they not listening to me? You know, I welcome everybody's watching me. How from nobody's watching all that stuff. It's you wrapped up in your own head and the other person can feel that. We know when somebody's actually paying attention and listing to us and we know when they're not. And curiosity. Training yourself to have an attitude of curiosity. One of the wonderful side effects is you can't be self obsessed if you're focused on the other person, if you're curious about the other person. So it works on an emotional level. It works on a very rational level. If you're curious, you're going to come up with a bunch of questions, and questions are great. You know, you ask your customers clients and good questions, they're flattered, you learn something, you build the connection and it just works on a whole bunch of levels. I've I've always heard that people generally enjoy talking about themselves, and so I've I've had this as a I've never been in a formal sales role, although I've indirectly sold. I think most of us do who are not formally in sales. But do people enjoy talking about themselves? I mean my impression is that people feel better about you simply for you being curious, listening and continuing to ask questions. Is that something that you've run into? Yah, I think that's exactly true. I'm not a trained psychologist and you know other people can speak to that, but as just a human being that's been on the planet for a number of years and in business and so forth. Absolutely, people love to talk because it's if the other person's listening, actually paying attention, really curious. It's a form of validation, it's a form of respect. And again you go back to that reciprocity saying on the handshake, the listening, all that stuff or variations on respect, and we crave respect from others and you know, those of us who have figured it out more than others know that the way you get respect as you give respect and listening, curiosity. It's a way of showing...

...showing respect, and then natural response is the reciprocate and show it back. So to do that little game right, I mean I can tell people. Imagine you're going on a blind date with somebody for the first time, you know, and you meet up at the bar and hello, how are you, Blaba Blah, and the first thing one person says is so tell me about yourself, which is an invitation. First of all, it says you talk first, which is a gesture, you know, of respect, and tell me about yourself. And if you're the one who's asked that, the right thing to do is of course you've done tell them about yourself, because it would be disrespectful not to. But what's critical is how long you go on, because if you go on for ten minutes about yourself, you're never get to get another date, nor should you. That's way too long. The game is played by giving about a minute, you know, out of respect, and then say, but you know enough about me, let's talk about you. And then you show the respect by asking the other question, other person questions, you show curiosity, attention, etc. And the trust bills. I love it. Such a great tip in a fun example that I think really above fall shows that this is useful in almost any relationship, not just in a selling or service dynamic. We right, but to stay there a little bit, talk about you know. So I coauthored a book and we dedicated it, in addition to our family members and our team members here at bombomb, to people who value relationships over transactions. And that's something that you write and speak on. Talk about the relationship between relationships and transactions. Where does that go wrong? Yeah, and I have a feeling there's a paradox there too, is like the less you focus on the transaction, the more likely it is. I'm just guessing, but on that yeah, it's in general, as a gross rule in business, in life, you should focus more relationships than on transactions. If you do that, the transactions come fairly naturally. You know the metaphors fruit falling off a tree. If...

...you nurture the tree, it's going to produce a lot of fruit. If you focus on stripping off the fruit, you're going to kill the three eventually. And and the metaphor holes and the places it goes wrong, and this is particularly true in business, is the over metricization of business, if you will, because we can, because there's so much data available out there and the reigning theory is that you know you can't measure, you can't manage it, which is completely false. I mean your million think you could do to manage without measurements. But we get lost in what the what the data is supposed to we forget what the D is supposed to represent and we just focus on the data. So look at ninety percent of sales models out there. They start with getting a lead, they ab with closing the sale. That's a transactional model and the implicit assumption is you're supposed to get the sale you know and then somehow you go find another one and do it again. It's a terrible model and it leads sales people and customer service people and all kinds of other folks to just focus on the transaction. If you're in the receiving end of a just transactional person, you're going to feel they don't care about me. You know in fact they're going to cut this discussion short as soon as they figure out whether I am or am not going to buy. There's going to be no flexibility in dealing with them because they are focused only on this transaction. So what it really raises is the long term versus short term perspective. And here's the paradox you referred to. The fact is, you get better short term results if you behave constantly in a long term way, as opposed to constantly focusing on the short term, trying to maximize short term benefits and so forth. And it's amazing how much emphasis there is. People think, well, I want to be measured on short term results, therefore I have to behave in a short term manner. I got to get the sales to hit my quota of this quarter. You know, whatever, the fact is, you don't get better results that way. People know you're transacting. You actually get better short term results by behaving long term. Such a wonderful and probably very valuable paradox to be aware of for for people who,...

...you know, for the for the sales folks who are listening to this and are in an environment that is very metrics oriented and and produces this kind of, you know, my opic view of the sales process where you're just looking at the next, you know, thirty to sixty days. Right, people can feel that, right. I'm sure it affects the way they trust you or as if you are operating from a you know, from a long term perspective. From the beginning, it probably softly and maybe even unintentionally communicates something to someone that that builds trust. How can an individual salesperson or, better yet, a sales leader, I would assume that you've seen several times, kind of a change in tone, change in approach within a sales professional or, better yet, a sales team, to kind of break some of those habits that we naturally want to find ourselves in because of some of these dogmatic ideas. You just tore down a couple of them. Tell me a story or give me some tips about how someone might break out of that kind of culture or habit right. Well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with metrics per se. What's wrong is how we interpret them, you know, and we think. We jump from short term results to short term behaviors. Mostly it's a matter of mindset. You honestly, if you start thinking instead of this is, you know, the third project we might Sol these people, I want to get this one, you need to start thinking, Hey, this could go to like fifty projects, this is just number three. Let me think. I had two, seven and ten. What's really going on here? What are we missing? And maybe we don't need to get the highest price on this one. In fact, maybe we can have a discussion whereby if I give him a break here, they'll give me a break further maybe I should share more information with them, because it'll make the fifth and the ten and the fifteen decision easier. So you begin to be more transparent. He began to think, Hey, my goals are intertwined with theirs. I'm not an opposition to them. We need to think about we're being...

...on the same side of the table. There are a few mental tricks like ask yourself what I ever recommend a competitor to this client, which seems horrific, you know, but think about it. If you would never recommend a competitor, ever, you're implicitly saying we are always better on every task than anybody else, and that's inherently ridiculous. Nobody's going to believe that. So you have to have an attitude that says hmm. Every time I see a new possible lead discussion from a client, I need to ask are we the right people for it? If not us, you know, maybe who else? And if it turns out that you get a lead, that you're really not right for. Don't cut it off immediately the many you find out it's wrong, because they're now a wasted lead. Instead thinking these people called us up for some reason. You know, it was not crazy for us to have this conversation. And maybe they're not right, but I may run into these people three years from now. They're going to talk to people. Why don't I spend the extra five minutes on the phone helping this person figure out how they can to solve their problem, not using us? Don't remember. That's great marking, great advertising, totally inexpensive. I'm just rattling off a few things here, but it's mostly mindset, attitude, and I'd freeze it around for key concepts or principles. Client focus for the sake of a client, not for you. Collaboration as opposed to competition, transparency in all cases, unless it's illegal or hurtful. And finally, that long term perspective that we had talked about before. Too so good. I want to go at what are any of those elements part of your equation? No, but no, those are can I mention the equation? Yes, please, they the trust equation. Remember, I mentioned at the beginning trust as a relationship between somebody who takes a risk and then somebody who is or is not trustworthy. The trust equation has to do with the second part, the notion of trustworthiness, and it's a descriptor for how we come to be trustworthy, how we...

...trust others. As someone who's trustworthy scores the the equation to C plus, R plus I overs and see stands for credibility like, do I believe what this person is telling me, that they have credentials, that they have confidence? Are stands for reliability like to they depend? That kind of depend on them, or they going to show up on times and they have a track record, or they're going to do what they said they would do. Those two were kind of rational ones. You can think of doing metrics on those, for example. The other two quite different. Intimacy, see plus, R Plusi. Intimacy is and contentionally, you know, kind of shocking word in the business context and we use it that way on purpose. It involves a little bit of risk. It really says, do I feel safe talking to this person? What kind of things can I share with them? Are they going to know, you know, the right time to laugh on the right time not to. Are they going to know who have passed this along too and who not to? And if they do, they're going to be very careful, high integrity, dealing with my situation. That's high enimacy. The denominator factor, that self orientation, goes back to the that neurotic self obsession that we talked out about before. Are they wrapped up in themselves or are they comfortable enough to actually be paying attention to me? We actually we started off in the book trusted advisor, came out in two thousand. That was just a conceptual model and people loved it. And then, about eight years after it dawn them mean that might actually make a good online self assessment tool, and we put it up and anybody can now take it. There's a free version of WOT. Anybody could take it on our website. About Seventyzero people have taken it and we have enough data that we can actually draw a few conclusions from it. I'll give you too. One of them is, well, let me let me put you on this, byter Ethan. Let me make you guess here. Who Do you think shows up as more trustworthy? Men Or women? Don't really think it to us you were correct statistically correct. That's true. And secondly, you're doing right. Of those four factors, which one do you think ended up actually having the most explanatory...

...value when you analyze it through a regression equation? Credibility, reliability, intimacy, low self orientation, which would you guess is the most powerful? Well, might might, just looking at the way you built the equation, I would want to say the denominator, but I'm going to see, Tim okay, I was going to see you see by your correct know we you're correct on both. Yeah, the way it's designed, it seems like you would have the greatest impact on the outcome. That is how we designed it and that's kind of how we thought of it and we weren't thinking of it as being a statistical measure at the time, but later, when we did, it turns out G it's actually intimacy is the most powerful one, which is an interesting finding for most of us in business, you know, particularly in the sort of increasingly technology driven businesses, that tends to be the lowest skill for most people in business and yet it's the most powerful. So it's the biggest source of competitive advantage, if you want to think of it that way. Most of your competitors are probably as bad added as you are, and if you can get a little better, you got a lot of leverage. So that's the trust equation. Thank you for asking. Yeah, and I love it. I'm going to go. I'm going to go take the test. And what how could someone go take the test? Normally I would ask is at the end, but because we're right here, trusted ADVISORCOM is the website a be trusted advisor, a tvisoarcom, and the front page, if you look in the upper right corner, you'll see there's a link to take the Tq, take the cross quote, something like that. There's a free version of it and if you want to pass thirty bucks, I think it is or something, you've get a much longer version. The three the free Versi who give you your score, if your highs, lows and a few insights. Awesome. I'll also add that to the notes when I publish this whole thank you. Let's wrap up here before I go with my my I'm excited to hear the answers to this my standard closing questions, but before we get there, let's talk. Let's just spend a minute on relationships. That are bad or are going bad or have already gone bad. Right. So...

...someone who's listening listening to this and they're like, Gosh, you know, I have been operating from a short term mindset. I haven't been really conscious of some of these trust symbols. I didn't know the elements of how to build trust. I just was operating intuitively and sometimes I do it well and sometimes I do it poorly. So I've got some bad relationships in the making or that have already that are that have already turned a little bit. We're some ways to potentially recut. How do you know that it's gone bad? Where some potential recovery and when you just need to cut it loose? Yeah, well, I would argue we all know when it's gone bad. It's that feeling in the tummy. It's to desire not to return the phone call, it's the growing you have internally when you see an email from them. I'm just gonna argue we all kind of know it, we suspect it and the key rule will first of all, if you can recover a bad business relationship with sudden goes wrong, it's potentially stronger than just a waiting that was good to begin with, a lot of customer set. Research shows that the key trick to doing it is is the thing we call name it and claimant. If you name it, you can claim it, calling out the elephant in the room speaking about it. Takes Courage to do that, but that's the key. You have to find words unique to the person in the situation to say, listen, I got to tell you this has been going south. We haven't talked about it, but you know it's true. I know it's true. This happened, that happened. I think we need to talk about this. And here's there's one key in doing that. You have to slightly overcompency for saying what it was, it happened. You cannot underdo it. This is the Watergate problem. You know, the coverups worse than the crime. If you if you sort of lead up to it, but you leave a little hand of while on. Yeah, it's kind of your fault to or wasn't really that bad. No, you just killed the whole deal. You have to go over the top and saying, listen, this happened and that happened. It was horrible in the end of the world. You know, and you want the other person to say, okay, okay, I get it. Yes, things are bad. All right, let's talk about I am going to assume that we probably shouldn't assign or take blame in...

...these scenarios. Do we do we just talk about all the bad things that happened and we all kind of know what happened, or do we get or do you? Is it better to take responsibility explicitly or take blame explicitly? You're like talk a little bit about that that, because I think the most natural thing for us to do is probably be a little bit defensive and or they might hear listeners might hear what you just offered and say, okay, I need to eat it all. I need to eat all the blame, even blame I don't deserve. Like talk about the role of blame here really quickly. Yeah, it's a great question, and think about the opposite. The opposite tendency of to over blame is to overapologize. Both of them go wrong because it's not clear about the responsibility. When you first have this discussion, you have to make it absolutely neutral. This happened, that happened. You felt bad, I felt bad. This blew up. Staying miles away from accepting or putting blame, responsibility, accountability, including apologies. Don't apologize just as a way of getting out of something difficult. Wait until you're able to say what what's analyze what happened here, how could we have made it so that didn't happen? You want to lower the conversation to where you can have a conversation about actions and behaviors and then you can begin to say, well, that's something we can do on our end. You know, is this something you can do on your ad and at that point you're talking about behaviors and at some point, if it is your fault, if you did blow it, you do need to make an apology, but it comes at the end and not at the beginning. You know, once you figure out what responsibilities were, its excellent. It shows someone that you really have been thoughtful about it and you're working on a path forward, which is more important than just the apology itself. And on. So relationships. As I said before, it's in the dedication of our book. I would assume that there's some statement similar around trust or relationship in some of your books as well. It's our number one core value here at bombomb. Relationships are, and so I like to give you the chance to thank or mention someone who's had a...

...really positive impact on your life or career and to to mention a company that you really respect for the way that they're treating their customers and future customers. Yeah, it's a great I actually have trouble with the first question. I you know, they're really half a dozen people, but some going to call a little different way. I'm going to coming to mention one person. He's long gone. He did a seminal thing for me. He Roll Moll the story that I tell on the book my first big sales call. He was my boss and he was with me and after the coffee and pleasant raise, the client look me in the eye and said what experience do you have doing marketing studies for industrial consumables of the same paper company, and the answer was, honestly, we didn't have any. And I'm rapidly thinking, Oh my God, what do I do, how do I craft this NBA type answer? He stepped in and he took the question and his answer to that was just like none that I can think of. What else would you like to talk about and distill the perfectly everything that I try to talk about in trust, lowered the confrontation, spoke the truth, focused on the relationship, not the transaction. We can unpack that little comment for, you know, half a day, but that was a great favor that he did me. In terms of companies, I don't know any big companies that I think are terribly better or worse than a well, there's some bad ones, I think you know Wells Fargo these days deservedly gets a lot of criticism. But the really good companies I find really good behavior. I found it in some small companies and I found it in groups within large companies. There's no reason they can't be done at scale and just hasn't. But I'll single out one in particular, Bang or savings bank up and bang or made. It's a it's a one of the bigger banks in Mame but still makes it a small bank. They get everything I talked about beautifully. They do a fantastic job there as a team within Microsoft of about a hundred and fifty people who totally get this stuff. There are there are some things that accenture has done in pieces of...

...their organization that I'll mention Ey to or instant young pockets, pieces of the organization where people have understood these things and make transformative, hugely productive things happen because they've they focused on trust. We can have another conversation about why it's perfectly scalable, about why they haven't scaled in too larger levels. But you know, that's another day, another interview. Great, this has been awesome. I've enjoyed it so much. I hope Lissom as much value as I have. You've already shared where people can take that test, at trusted ADVISORCOM. How else can someone connect with you? Twitter at Charles Age Green. Mail see green at trusted ADVISERCOM. That's CGREEM and Linkedin. I you know Charles Eh Green. I forget what the exact knowing quite you're there. Sure, super. We are connected there. We got connected there through a mutual connection. That's how we set this up. So I also welcome anyone who's listening to connect with me, Ethan, but be ute Etcha, and Beute at Linkedin as well. We're both there for you, Charlie and me. Charlie, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. We in real pleasure. Yeah, pleasure for me too, and I hope you have a really productive week. Take care. Thanks. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're in trusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. rehumanize the experience by getting face to face through simple personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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