The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

19. Why Customer Experience Is The Only Differentiator Left w/ David Cancel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Whatever job you do, whatever industry you’re in, people are going to tell stories about their experiences with you.

It’s been said for a long time that customers that have a negative experience with a business are two to three times more likely to leave a review of that business than customers that have a good one.


A couple more stats that prove how important good customer experience is:

  • 88 percent of people trust online reviews as much as they trust their best friends’ recommendations.
  • 80 percent of people choose to go elsewhere if they read bad reviews of your business online.

Needless to say, if your customers aren’t telling positive stories about you, it’s impacting you. Whether you know it or not.

We've been in this world of it's a all we care about is the companyproblems and whatever we decide, we inflict that onto our customers. You're listening to the customerexperience podcast a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businessesrestore a personal human touch throughout the customer. Life Cycle,get ready to hear Hou sales, marketing and customer success, experts, surpriseand delight, and never loose signe of their customers. Humanity here is yourhost Efen Baute. Welcome back to the customer experiencepodcast today's guest and I'm really excited to have him his a five timefounder, an two time CEO. He found it compete ghostery, performable andlookery. He was the chief product officer at hub spot for three years,he's currently Tho foundernd, CEO of drift, Co, host of the excellentseeking wisdom, podcast coauthor of the book, Conversational Marketing, aselfprofessed, obsessive reader and Antrepreneur, and residents at HowverBusiness School David Cancel. Welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you for having meen I'm super sict to be here. Talk about all things, video things customerawesome I cool! I did not know we're going to have a good video conversationhere, but I'm excited to have that to now that you introduce it we'll starthere with with customer experience. You know one of my one of my premisspremises as I got into this, was that you know you ask ten people what itmeans and you'll get seven point four answers when I say customer experience.What is that conjure for you? What are some of the touristics yeah to me? Thetkind of I kind of think the same way in terms of brand experience. So I thinkcustomer experience to me is a bigger thing than I've heard, usually to find,and what I mean by it is like it is literally every touchpoint and everyemotion that your brand and your product and your your experience putson to the customer and what they feel like that. Well, how do they perceiveyour brand? How do they perceive your product? That's the customer experience.So it doesn't start and stop with a website or doesn't start and stop witha product. It doesn't start in stop with a brand. It goes across. All thosethings because if we think about the brands and the customer experiencesthat we look to as being remarkable, there's no way to separate as theproduct versus the people versus the brand, it's all becomes one thing, andso I'm obsessed about every detail being part of the customer experienceso good. I think one of the key things you offered in there is this idea thatthe feelings right to so all these things happen right. I see your websiteor I talk to a person wor. I have a product failure or product success and that's part of it. But what am I leftwith? How do I feel about it? How do I think about and what stories do I tellother people about it m? I love that last part about what stories do I tellother people about it so key in the customer experience, because, if you'redoing a great well whatever job you do, people are going to tell stories aboutthat experience, so you can focus on making them good or if you ignor them,they can become mediocre or bad experiences right. I think the defaultis a lot of folks, just don't think about it at all. It's just happening.You hope you hired someone decent. You hope you maybe train them. Well, youhope. Maybe you empower them. You just kind of let it happen and that's that's.Why we're having these conversations on the show all the time, soconversational marketing did kind of teas up a little bit just for contextfor first, that may not be familiar talk a little bit about drift, a littlebit about conversational marketing and what is this concept of conversationalmarketing? What is its role in the customer experience like what problems?Does it overcome? What value does it provide? What gaps? Does it fill it'sfunny, because so conversational marketing in the wellll explain it andwhat drift does and customer experience or Al One thing right? All of thisWewe're doing conversation marketing why we created drift as a company andis a product and why we use it ourselves all stems from one thing,which was this obsession that I've had...

...for the last decade a little over adecade. Now, on the customer experience and the customer experience being themost important thing and figuring out a way which it's taken me time to do overseveral companies, how do we incorporate that customer experience ineverything that we do right literally into? How do we use it in building ourproducts from an engineering standpoint? How do we use it in our marketing? Howdo we use it, obviously in sales but across every part of the company? Howto we incorporate that customer experience? So when we started driftfor you a little ver four years ago now we had an observation. That observationwas that customer experience was the most important thing, but for most ofour professional career for my entire professional career, even though theseideas are not new, and we had heard about the rise of the customer, the ageof customer experience, they actually didn't matter and explained that itdidn't matter because most companies were operating in ecosystems where theydidn't have much competition and those companies could dictate the salesprocess could dictate how they wanted to serve those customers. But if youfast forward to today and back when we started the company four years ago,that's no longer true right. The entire Paradim is shifted in every givencategory. There are infinite supply of competitors. Whether you sell directlyto consumers, you SEL, b, to B it doesn't matter, there's an infinitesupply of competitors, and what that means is that all of a sudden customerexperience is the most important thing that you can focus on his business.Even though we've known these ideas for tenfifteen twenty years, they didn'tmatter back, then they matter they're, incredibly important today, and so westarted drift. Driff basically helps you sits on your website and we are thefastest path between the customers and your prospects who come to your websiteand think Abou you're upset as a store, even if you literally don't sell stuffon it and the people inside your company and creating that conversationbetween those two two people. The observation was that we had both in thecustomer was in charge and if we think about how businesses have always workedfor all of time, if you have salespeople fin your your business.Okay, forget about Amazon and self service, but if you have the idea of asalesperson, you have never sold anything until you've had aconversation right. That is fundamental, but we have spent the last ten fifteenyears ago in this rise of of digital marketing and creating barriers betweenthe customer, the prospect and the people inside the building and that'swhat we've all done and hat what I've done in the past in terms of markingand it worked for a long time, but then no longer works today. Soconversational marketing allows you to Tern Your Business into the twenty fourseven three nd sixty five available website that can serve us, yourcustomers, and so we created this category conversation marketing liketwo years ago now, two and a half years ago, because we needed a a way to givethis a name. And so we created this we've written a book around it. Nowit's a category ad nowtherer lots of other companies in this category andit's become a recognized thing of let's go to the fastest. pathlets actuallyliterally have a conversation with our customers in our prospects, becausethat will always be the fastest path to one a customer, but to to be buildingan incredible customer experience. That's excellent! You hit on so manythings that are really exciting to me. One of them is the idea that thebusiness used to dictate or have the privilege of dictating the terms onwhich you engaged with customers and, of course, that's dramatically. FlippedO just to sheer story. I think you'll enjoy this one. So we were about threemonths behind you and releasing our book. Rehumanizour business is aboutsimple personal videos and we did a sales offer in the preorder window andSteve and I are or CMO and my coauthor on the book. We were both had we useddrift here at Bombam, and so we had we had drift on the page and you know Iwas just monitoring it just to see. If you know these conversations would popup and it was easy to answer a bunch of the questions right, and so we couldprobably if we were going to continue to use that page. We probably writespecific thoughts because Goin to know...

...you know: Twenty five percent of thepeople ask some ver variant of this question in particular, but I have thisguy. That was s weet, so we did these tear packages. If you buy one you get X,if you buy three, you get Wy. If you get five ten twenty five, fifty onehundred five hundred and up to a thousand books, if you buy a thousandbooks, you get all this stuff. So this guy's just starts chatting about. Youknow the higher level teers and so I'm engaging then all of a sudden. You know,after back and forth of maybe fifteen or twenty messages with him live. Weend up popping on to zoom and he thi guy buys a thousand books. Wow, that'sancre! That's incredible! We should have done that teared offer forconversational marketing, but you highlight an important thing which isnow obvious to us adrift and our customers, but wasn't obvious. I don'tknow why, in the early days of starting the company and building our product,which was those high level people, those people capable of buying athousand books which is significant, those people are not going to convertthe old way they're not going to fill out a form they're not going to waitfor you to reply to contact US email, they're, not going to wait for you toget twenty sequence demails. They want to talk to somebody right. It totallymakes sense right like those people, and they probably want to talk topeople off hours because most of the time in business they're busy duringthe day, and so they want to converse with people- it's obvious now, but wesee it even on data with our customers like the higher level kind of titles,especially those sea level, titles. Those people will always default totalking to someone because they know what they're interested in versusconverting in the old ways, but in the Ol you know up until recently, we wereonly giving them one path to convert right and the other interesting thinghere too, just just to stay real practical on this example is there'sreally no one else to have that conversation with him right like Steve,and I put him together. Our whole team was helpful and like Buildem uperlanding pages and doing all this stuff, but the sales team is not incentdivised.On Book Sales, N, the customer support and customer success team, that'stalking with customers all day and gets a lot of when people call into ourTolan number. You know they don't know all the details, an new ONS suff. Thisis there's no mechanism for US internally in a company of were about ahundred and thirty people today, you know I'm not going to call it allcompany meeting to walk through the sales offer right and so Ho it was myconversation to have and that he wasn't going to reply to an email with Herere.My top fifteen questions before I commit nd, so its jist this to theconversational part of it. It's just kind of given give and take back andforth. The question he thought to ask in the beginning is not where he landed.Five questions just for right. He didn't ask that fourth question off thegate or out of the gate, and so anywoy was fantastic. I think I Howabo howimportant that customer is Te. Bombam, a thousand books, incredit wait andwhat he wants to do. I mean part of what we offered was that we will steveand I, on our own dime, will come and spend an entire day with whoever youput in the room. If it's you and your co founder or if it's five of your bestcustomers, Yoryour whole company or five tousand people in an auditorium,will teach and talk on these themes for a day. Now, that's really smart. That'sreally! I wish I would have talked to you before we launched our book andthere's SOM, maybe we'll get into that here. cearly there're, so we just madeit up. As we went, you know, there's no, for this thing is fun and interestingand things I do differently. But so let's go back o to drift and customerexperience. You know it's obvious how this is a benefit to the company, aswell as to the customof the Customr. This gives the customer another channelor another means of engaging with the company. Some people want to get on thephone. Some people want to go back and forth and email etcetera. This is justanother way to do that either partly or completely automated or truly personalOnedo. One is what is whats my case with the gentleman who, as kind enoughto commit to that book purchase. So I understand it from thoseperspectives, but for you, as someone who is selfprofessed, obsessive on thistopic and with purview over the entire...

...organization, all the all the peopleand all the touch points. What are you doing kind of tactically to create someholism or consistency to manage handoffs? Well to me, I me, as ore,what's working, what are you doing structurally and practically andtactically inside your company? As someone who really cares about customerexperience a lot? How are you bringing people together around it? Yeah, that'sa great question and it goes back to the something a reference earlier,which is like actually the whole idea for drift and the whole overlap ofcustomer experience. It's like Supermettar. We we wanted to create themost customer centric company possible, so we created a tool that allowed us toconverse with our customers and Fr to learn from our customers. Then that isa tool that we sell to other people and those other companies use that toteconverse with their customers and get closer to their customers and buildideally a more customer centric company. So it's like it's Super Meta andrecursive right. This thing that ove created but Wewev figured out how tooperationalize within our company the things that were learning fromcustomers and how do we change the existing hierarchy and existing roleswithin the company to match what our customers want right if we think aboutthe old way, which is the sold way of filling out the forms and doing allthis stuff that we talked about that way? That company Centr view created awhole slew of roles within our companies, and we know what those rulesare right: all different versions of sales, people whate, you call them thecan executives, bdrs strs IDRs. You know count: Managers, csms, Boba, allthese kind of different things that we've created to specialize and to dealwith all those different handoff points and in order to optimize that from acompany experience standpoint. But what we've done is we've inflicted that ontoour customers, our customers, don't care what you'r rolling, where yourtitle is right. They just want an answer to your question, so it'scausing us to rethink what are the roles that we should create within thecompany? How us? How would we reorganize the entire kind of idea of acompany, a modern, go to market motion around the customer right, and I alwaysuse the example of like I, like the Apple Store experense. I, when I walkinto the applestore experience, I just talk to someone who works there. Theymay or might not be able to answer my question, but they always walk me overto the person. Who can I don't know what any of those people's roles are?Nor should I right that's the experience I want or high end hotel, orwe have lots of different examples that you just have an experience withsomeone and they've figured out how to operationalize that internally, what wedid early on to get the specifics is that we created tools and frameworksinternally for different teams. We have tools for our product teams, how theyinterpret what a customer saying. Even how do they break down sentences andwhat the customer might be implying based on how they freeng a specificquestion, and I call at the SPOTBI framework- and you can find that online,so there's a whole little framework around how to use that for productdevelopment, and then we've done that for sales. We've done that withmarketind. We've done it for all different teams, we're actuallybuilding into our product all of these capabilities, so that our customersdon't have to learn this on their own, because we think we can take all ofthis conversation ato over time and create these playbooks. Create theserules create these things in there to help. You have better conversations toyour customers without having to figure out how to change and how to how do youmake thes stuff operation a WTFON, the company? I love it. Are You doing that?A are you doing that on a per account basis, Likeik, Pos mice, playbook,we're doing it both we're doing it across our entire customer base. Sothose are basic things that you learn about language across differentcustomer bases, and people may be in similar selling motions right and thenwe are doing it lower level. We are doing it specific to that company andthe way that things work for them. So we will analyze and makerecommendations based on successful...

...interactions that have happened in thepast. Let's say it's a sales, interaction overdrift and we seesuccess and we see commonalities or your top performers. We seecommonalities there so make recommnations that are very specific toyour product, to your team as well and what's work before so good. I also wantto double back to your apple store experience, and nor should I so important. Er Company's problems are completelyirrelevant to your customer and we've done that. We've done thatfor an entire. You know entire SASS industry, but from so many industrieslike we have for so long been in this world of, and this is a major shift.This is why it's a big shift for people to go from where we've been to where weare now we've been in this world of it's all. We care about is the companyproblems and whatever we decide, we inflict that onto our customers andthat can that does work and it has worked in the past, but that only worksin an n economy where you are a monopoly or close to monopoly hi, youhave very few competitors. Most businesses are not like that, anddefinitely the future is not trending that way. Inso an in a world where youhave a infinite supply of competitors, infinite supply of options, even ifthey supply something totally different, a service versus software in that world.It can never work right in that world. It is closer to consumer package goodsworld and you deciding between two versions of launder decerging than itis about anything else, and it has to come down to that holistic. Customerexperience, a hundred percent so good. I want to go a little bit personal here,really quick, so I feer, I love the work that you do. I love the way youlook at the world is privileged chabby on the show. The one of the episodes Ilistened to was that was from the BTB growth show with James Carburry. Ithink I think it was released last summarish, yeah yeahback, and so he wasin a lightning round with you, which was pretty fun n. We talked aboutBoston, restaurants and stuff yeah yeah. What is the number one thing you'retrying to optimize in your life right now and without missing a beat you said:Do you remember what you said? No, okay, you said experiences, okay, yes t! Soso I like to true, but it was the lightning round. So there's no contaxt.Can you go about that a little bit? What does it mean to be optimizing?Experiences in your life? It's so funny! You know if you were to ask me thatquestion right off the Cup right now, I would have said happiness but happiness.I wull qualify is just a kind of further refinement of experiences. Soit's like these happy experiences, not just experiences. I think you know itgoes back to everything that we're talking about. I think the only thingthat we value once all of our needs are met right and we've gone down theMaslos hierarchy of needs right and once o all of our needs are left. Theonly thing that's left our experiences, and I think we live in a world nowwhere we will only pay Tis proportionally for experiences andoutcomes right and those things aren'n to twine. So an experience or specificoutcome, and I think anything that doesn't provide an amazing experiencedoesn't provide. The outcomyou want is just a commodity and you have to be theAmazon of your market to be able to sell those commodities everything elseevery other business in the world. If you're, not an Amazon like business,you need to be selling an experience and that's what I'm looking for. That'swhat I'm chasing myself, because I'm just like everyone else. Listening tothis, like I care about these experiences, that's all that's left. Ilive in a very first world problem context here, like there's, not a lotof ewere watching podcast and we're on these highin machines and doing videoand stuff like that. We are like. We are so far on the side of Firsto allproblems right like if you listen to this you're with me right and in thatworld experiences. The only thing that's left, there's nothing left butexperiences, and that's how I partti priatize my life. What ar theexperiences that I want to live through everything else is a commodity. Is ittoo simple or shortsighted to say that...

...when we talk about experiences, it'sabout how how we make people feel about themselves, I love how you Freckee, Ifeel smarter for having listened to this wor. I feel happier or moreentertained or smarter and more empowered, whatever like it's about howwe make people feel about themselves. Is that because hes that going too far?No, it's not going too far. I think that is the cort of it. That's exactlyit. I think you nailed it and I think we have overcomplicated things we haveand that's what we do is humans. We've ve complicated things. We want to makethings more rational and a logical than they are, but at the end of the day itis how you make people feel, and that's all that we can do on this planet ishow do we make other those people around us? How do we make them feel andhow do those people around us make us feel that is it th t? That is all thatwe are and- and I think we're coming back to that so were- I think- we'recoming full circle into that, because now Magain, if you're listening to thisall of your needs are pretty much met. You know it's Neuonce at this point andnow it's back to the original concept, which is simple, but it's not easy tolive, which is like it's all about the experiences and how do I want to makepeople feel around me? How do I want my product to make them feel, and that iswhat people value so good and we pay for it yeah. Theonly thing we pay for, I think proportionally his experienceis right.That's why we want a certain. You know product a certain coffee, a certainwhatever it's not because of the Litt tological idea behind this coffee ofhone, exact beans are in here what cup they use it's about. How does this makeme feel when I hold this cop when I buy this cop and by the way, this Cup andbought this coffee in Bostons, more Sconsin Tan starbucks? If you canbelieve it, how does this make me feel it makes me feel a certain way andthat's what I'm paying for Nice, and I would assume that the retail spaceprobably reflects all of that. Yes, exactly totally matches, and that's whyI love it because their entire customer experience is perfectly executed andthat's another thing that I kind of Gig out on which I'm guessing Yuge got onas well as that is the customer experiencis the entire thing. So I careabout every detail. How does this cup? How does this Cup feel? What is theirlogo like on this cup? How does it match the experience, the servers whenyou come into the into the restaurant? How does the aesthetics of therestaurant luck like every single thing about that makes me feel a certain wayand that's why this place, which is a bik reen year here, can sellsweatshirts and hats and peoplewill actually buy them and wear them around,because they value that experience so good. I think if people would buy. I amsure people do wear starbucks gear, but but but if more people would do it, notthat it would be in the storce. As that one is. I have like at least fourtopics. I would love to get siiill respect your time as well. I'm Gontotalk about books, edd players, one. I really enjoy your conversation with David Girhard on seeking wisdom aboutessential drucker, redic, ander, five disfunctions behind the cloud, etceterayeguys, like walk through a whole bunch of books that are available. You havelike a public bookshelf that anyone, especially like one of those littlefree libraries IC s over Boston like they're, all over my town, kind of likethat. But in your lobby. Why is reading so important to you and specifically-or here, are you one of those people that says I read fifty books last year,but you actually listend to forty of them on audible at Toxet, or do you orwo read books, read books like talking about reading and why it's important toyou and how you do it? I'm a I'm, an obsessive reader, so I'm usuallyreading five books minimum at the same time which I'll talk about. I think hesets up important there, which I like to dig in. I was obsessed with freadingearly in my life and then I think my school experience- and this is justmine. My school experience taught me to dislike reading because I was taughtwhich I think most people are to read...

...in a certain way to read formemorization, to read for to say that I completed something to read, to beforced to read something without having the context understand why I wasreading that at that toint. So I taught me that later in life, I came back andsaid like rekindled, my love of Reading for awhole bunch of reasons. One of them was, I kind of discovered N my own tat, andI can this realization that I think I was reading the wrong way like. Why didI have to memorize things in a book? Why did I have to read? Why did I haveto read this specific book versus listen to it on no Naudio Buck? Why didI have to you know complete the entire book and not give up on books? Why wereall these things that I was kind of taught to do, and I said you know whatthese are. All I think in my for me, wrong, like reading, is about, as aboutlearning is about growing on your own. It's about learning from other people'sfailures, and you know incorporating that into yeur life and so like thereare no rules around reading th that reading is you have to complete anentire book that you can never give up on a book. My wife won't still has thatrule like if she starts a book. She will never give up on a book eventhough she's miserable- and you know corded through the book, but she willforce yourself through that which, I think is a crazy idea. I think readingshould be enjoyable. A reading should be a growth exercise and I don't thinkyou should have hard and fast rules about reading, and I think you shouldnot for me what I find valuable is not thinking that I can only read one bookat a time or sp specific genre. I, like reading lots of different thingsbecause those ideas cross pollinate together and they create an entirelynew set of ideas. Once I start to read from different meetings, I also pick upbooks. All the time read a little bit put him down, because I've decided thatI'm not interested right now or I want to come back to that later, and I maycome back to that months later. I meay never come back to it. I may come backto years later. I also reread a lot of books because I think that's importantas well, because you're in a different context, each time you read a book andso that Same Book that you read twenty years ago, if you read it five yearslater and ten years later and fifteen years later, you may be takingdifferent. You woill probably be taking lessons different lessons out than thefirst time. On the second time of the third time you read that book, and so Ithink those things are important, but I could talk about books forever, but Ido I don't know what the number is now, I'm kind of well known for recommendinga lot of books, and so I'm always sending our book recommenations. Wehave an internal book club at Drift, where you can order as many books asyou want andless every conference oin here is named that different authors inthose rooms. There are stacks of books and we encourage everyone, includingguests, to come in and take as many books as you want: They're all free andwe mail books for people who listen to podcast Oll of the world every singleday. That's amazing! I do have a followig question, but it's funny whenSteve and I went- we made a commitment to sign about eleven hundred copies ofour book, so we so we went to eight hundred CEO read, who I assume you'refamiliar with and signed hem all in person on Sighe, and while we werethere, it was like we were at drift. I guess, because you know our partner andfriend Aaron was like no just just take any book. You want n his like, like sorte ceiling ye celvs. Now it is here he's like et's just take whatever youwant like really, so we pick up like four and he goes. Is that all you wantwe're like? Can we hit take more take what anywayshipped into us? It was awesome. We are here every person that comes in whetherthey're vendor a customer prospect. Anybody just like take afriend take as many books as you want take as many books as you want, andthat is toust is the ultimate gift right. It's just like take as manybooks as you want and, like I said you know, because we oprat you all operatefrom a you know. We have the repteliun part of our brain, so we operate from aplace of fear and scarcity. You will never go broke. Buying Books, I've notmet that person right so, like yeah, you will go grop by another stuff, butnot books, Aright, so good. I do want to double back on something you sharedin the in the previous answer, which is...

...this idea of reading different topics,different subjects simultaneously, because what I hear in your words iscreativity, is blending previously disparate ideas into new, truly ideas,because there's that line of thought that there Ar new ID there are no newideas. There is no new music they're, just different ways of blending thesethings together to create something new ish. Well, so talk about, because Ithink this is an important part of it. Talk about consumption versus the freespace to put those ideas together, like while you're reading, sometimes thatoccurs to you what this is a more of a personal question than anykind: Do youcreate quiet spaces for those things to work themselves out? A hundred percentso so glad that you brought this up, because this is a core part of of learning right, whether it's threreading or through other means is like you always have to have this quietspace in between the noise to be able to synthesize right and put this efftogether. And for me it's a you know. Everyone has a different way to do itlike. For me, this is going for a long walk. This is being nature. This is youknow, without headphones without listening to something, this is justbeing comfortable being alone, and those are the times when these thingswire symphasized. This is why we've heard disagoled stories of having ideasin the shower and ideas when you went for at the gym. It's not because thegym of the shower magical things: it's because you gave yourself permission tohave that quiet time to let these ideas symthesize so reading this consumption,which I consume a lot synthesis, is totally different and synthesis happensafter the fact. For me. Sometimes it happens to our reading, but more oftenthan that, it's after the fact is, I'm just thinking about probably somethingout of left field. Just pops up, and it's really a symthesis of thesedifferent ideas, awesome to talk now about conversational marketing, thelook, not just the concept. Why a book? What role does it play? How is itsurprised? You share anythingy? U lilike about the experience of ofwriting and publishing that book yeah. So we you know we had an unfair kind ofadvantage and that we had. I was at a hub spot before this, and so I had seenwhat the indown markting book had meant and so how people reacted that that wasa long time ago now. But when we were thinking about this idea ofconversation market and creating this category, we were thinking about h,atways the best way to communicate to this, and I think it goes back tosomething that I think about a lot and talk about a lot which is, likeeveryone, absorbs information slightly different ways right. So like Fror, mycofounder, he likes to talk things out, and so he needs to experience likethese things, as he talks them out and goes back and forth. Other people likeme, need to like sleep on things, synthesize things and that's why I likereading so much other people respond to something else, and so we had ideas forall these different ways to communicate the idea of conversational marketing.But for people like me and people who enjoy books, the book was an importantpart, but not just having a digital book, but having a physical book thatthey could lean back on, cannot even a physical book that we published Wuth aphysical book that was available at stores all around the world, because Ithink it's important to have that kind of ability for people to kind of bumpinto these ideas right to be out there, thinking about some ofthe things andlike randomly bump into this book somewhere at an airport or a bookstoresomewhere, and that BUP being the right book for them at this right time. Andso the book was important for us for a bunch of reasons, but it really camedown to. We know there are people that just love consuming new ideas throughthis medium, and so we were going to use books, we've Beeng, to use videowe're going to use all these different mediums, and you know books areimportant because they last you know. If you write a great book, they canlast longer than any of these other medians that were exposed to so good.I'm thinking about right now, my head, I'm thinking about just on that lastpassage. H, t, I'm thinking about permission, marketing tes that Goden,which was published to any time ago, O...

...right more than twenty years ago, istwenty. It just turned twenty more it's going to like in a couple months orsomething like it's it. One thousand nine hundred an ninety nine. Well thathad big impact on me: permission, marketing, purple cow, so many ofstefgodens books me to in it. But I sorry your storry, we read permissionmarketing about a year ago and it's so funny how far we have not come relativeto those ideas right and I actually, you honestly see conversationalmarketing and what you're doing is as Abit of thy evolution. Theire xceptbook was so anghored into email. A hundred percent tiny percent theire,two books that conversation marketing is derivitiveof. One of them ispermission marketing, so you nail that and some aspects of Purbo cow kind of,but then the second is which I would advise everyone to go back and rereadthis. This book was from Nineteen Years Old. Now, back in two thozand publisanscalled the clue train manifesto Donso. We don't need to talk about thatbecause we guyll take weiht too much of your time. Baa sred those two books,just quict context for you I was in broadcast. I was running marketinginside the stations and in the early twosands. I was trying to figure outwhat was next, because I just felt like it kind of a dumb product on a daytoday, basis yeausefull in times of crisis, but otherwise kind of just adumb product, and I just wasn't that into it anymore, and so I was that wasthe rise of social, but it's also just the right. I guess it was called Webtwo point. No, what the time it was so so all that stuff had such asignificant impact on me as I started to figure out. How are these skillstransferable? Obviously, writing, shooting photos and shooting videos arehighly transverbale to a variety of things and they lent themselves well toweb to point. OCLUTRING manifester was just really really impactful, but it's likemost of the big transformations that we're going through now. All of theseare ideas that we were talking about twenty years ago. Yep theyeal, I guessevery single one of them were ideas before most of those ideas failed backthen, because it was not the right time for them right. We were not ready forthem, but most of the ideas of the most popular companies in the world today,where ideas from twenty years ago, not I guess from thirty years ago they'renot new ideas, because we are people. We have not evolved right, but now isthe time where a lot of these ideas are right. The scale is there for them toactually work. CUTRAIN MANIFESTI was all about conversations right it beingabout the conversations that has had the biggest influence on conversationmarketing, but it comes back from that book and permission. Marketing, yeahconversations and consumer choice is funny. Just go EA. I guess I am goingto stay on this topic. You know you know when I think about permissionmarketing. Why something that see that that resonated with me, probablyfifteen years ago, when I read it, and in even more so now that I have so muchmore exposure to to how thes stuff comes out in practice at the time isjust exploring ideas. I think it goes back to the beginning of ourconversation here, which is a lot of people ignore them, because it's easierto do it like we've been doing it, and we still think we have that controlthat we no longer have o course def tales into clude, Traine Manifesta,which is conversations as dictated by the consumer and now py the companythemselves. You mentioned video off the top of this. I want to know what do youthink about video? How are you using video? What is your interest in video?What is videos plays? What are its strengths? Yeah? I think if you, if youfollow drift online in any medium, you see that we are insane and obsessedwith video we've really double down on video from day one I'm starting thecompany and why? Why we've done? That is because we believe that it is one ofthese megatrends that we talk about, that is, transforming all O businessright. The first one megatrend that we talked about was messaging and that'swhy we createa drift and why we chose messaging as the beginning, because itwasn't about the technology. It wasn't about the idea of messaging againmessaging had been both of us, I'm sure we're using some form of messagingfifteen twenty years ago. Th there's...

...nothing new, like people, think slackis new, or what up is you all? Those ideas existed. I use some version ofthat twenty years ago, what's different though today, and why it's a mega trendis that, because, mostly because of the smonthphone adoption throughout theworld, all of a sudden we're going from audiences of millions, you know evensky took a long time to get to a hundred million people to billionsovernight, and all of those people are conversationally native is what we callit they've been born in messaging. They think it's normal. That is how they act.That's how they pay their bills. That's how they do everything around most ofthe world outside of the US. That's why it's a mega trend and why it'simportant for business, the Second Medi Megatrene that we've talked about fromthe beginning of drift. His video and video, is something that again justlike messaging around the world is totally normal native. These are videonative people. Are Being born and raised right now and it's Nhot aboutjust younger people think about all of the demographics across the world andcountries that never had access to the Internet. Those people are mess,conversation native and their video nated and look at consumption patterns.If you look at consumption patterns- and you see that most of online trafficmost of the time and you don't have to read any stats to know, thet's justwalk across the street, walking to starbucks walkingto any place aroundthe world, and you see people doing this won. What are they consuming?Mostly Yeah consuming most of the time on here, video yep they're consumingvideo, and so, if you don't think, video has a place in your businessyou're crazy, because all consumption has moved there and even when you lookat companies like like facebook, an other companies, they say in a coupleyears: niney percent of their traffic ol be video. So how do you thinkvideois not going to have an impact on your business right? It's good! I lovethat you had that that vision. Four years ago yeah, we were just following the trends. Itwas not even about like we saw something that other people you justlook at consumption patterns, and this is kind of a lesson. That's Il leadthis lesson for your audience, which is like this lesson took me more than halfof my career and if you can look at the white hairs on my beard, you know thatcareer has been long but, like it took me a long time to figure this out,especially as an entrepreneur as an engineer and product person, which isyou have to it's not enough to have a good idea. It's not enough to build agreat product. You have to look at the momentum and the trends that arehappening in the world. What are the changes in the world and how di theymake the product of the service of the thing that you're building or sellingrelevant today, and so that took me a long time? That's pretty obvious, butit took me more than half my creer to figure that out and why, because egoand pride gets in the way when you want to create your own ideas, and now Istart by saying what is changing, what is becoming normal? What is the newnormal out there and then how do I change my business my service byoffering to match how people want to either consume things digust things howthey want to be treated, how they want their the experience to be, and sothat's the job, oth business, all businesses to follow the way that allof us want to change in our lives and what match is thereis just this ideathat evolution is the default right. Things are constantly changing. Theyshould be changed to this idea that we can set it up, like whatever it is, ourbusiness or some aspect of our business and like it's going to be okay becauseit worked for the last eighteen months. You know that's over and I think wefinally have enough examples that we're s starting to see that even in thebiggest of companies right, they've seen all the massive disruption- that'shappening in the world today across every given category and segment, andthey know that if they have not been disrupted yet they're about to bedisrupted, Yep- and it's to so many consistent themes here, going back toessentially potentially infinite competitors. Yes, we are living in aworld of infinite competition. Whether you want to believe that or not so thatis the way the world is going just in Sats, which is the industry that thatI'm in that we're in together, which is just a small subsede of the world. Butyou look at just my history in Saus and...

I kind of think there's three waves ofevolution that have happened. I was in the first generation of assassin earlytwo in two thousand right in you. Before we even had the name Sass wedidn't have a category. We didn't even know what to call. We was. We saidwe're going to sell software. They e commerce right. That was our idea forsubscription in that world net when sales forcs and that's we din all thesecompanies got started in that world. Those companies had no equivalentcompetitors right that sold SASS. They were competing with old kind of ompramsoftware solutions that was their competition, so their competition wassingle digits or not. Then you go to the next way, which was zen. That's anhub spot and all these companies got aformed there. We had some competitors,but they were. Maybe we had five competitors that we could name really.We didn't have that much competition. You lookin SAST, now in every givencategory, and I love for anyone to tell me a category where they don't havetens, hundreds or an our case, which were in sales and marketing thousandsof competitors, and that friend is increasing. It's not holding steady,it's not going down. It's increasing the reason why its simple all of thesecountries around the world are coming online. Now and now they know theblueprint they know how to build the technology. They know the go to marketstuff, it's all available free on the on the Internet. How to build tha salesteam, how to sell a product? How to you know how to build it from a technicalstandpoint. It' all information is free, so the only thing left is experience atthis point, so good, just kind of taking it back to where we started Icould go. I don't know. Ther's been an absolute pleasure, your joy to speakwith and to listen to. I want to end this W, where I always do, which is youknow, relationships Ar our number one core value, and- and so I like to giveyou the chance to thank or mention someone who's, had a positive impact onyour ife for career mention one or more companies who you really respect forthe way they're delivering customer experience today sounds good, so I will. I will leave out the the copout answers,which are my family and my wife, my mom, all those, but those are supermeaningfall. I will say from a SHOUTUP STANDPOINT: I've had three. I've hadIHAVE had a lot of mentors in my life, but I have three early mentors in mylife and they all had two of them. Ore, my rel mentors and one of them was avirtual mentor who learne through their writings and through their experiencesand those three mentors were all named Sam and so first with family who workfor when I was in high school at a warehouse, and you really taught memost of the lessons that I'm still figuring out this today. Then it wasSam, Walton, the founder of Walmart, and so, if you haven't read the bookmade in America, read that book and Hou Talght me about servint leadership andother things that were important, N and really focusing on the customer,whatever you think about Walmart that book than what they did wastransformational and the third one with his name, Sam Zales and he's Anon, he'san entrepreneur and runs a public company here in Boston. He's taught methe importance O of people and overproduct and now I believe, ninetynine percent of this is all about people and one percent is about product,and so those are the three that have really had an impact on my life andthen last e. The company that I, like. That's a tough one because I have ahigh bar, but I think we model a lot of things that a lot of the experiences ofa hotel chain called four seasons or seasons. You know that experience andwhat there's a great book that the founder of Four Seasons wrote that Irecommend to everyone, and it's about this idea of building this incredibleservice in a world where very little of it could be scripted right. And so howdo you get your entire company? Providing this amazing experience overand over and over and I'm always fascinating by restaurants and byhotels, specifically, because the product changes every single day? It'snot like building, you know a wigit or a piece of software. What have you oryou can get repeatability, because these are people based businesses andpeople are going to wake up on the wrong side of bed, whether it's acustomer or someone on your team? And...

...so how do you build those amazingexperiences? I'd say Disney will Disney, as in the Worl Disney world is prettypretty close as well, so good, three SAMs ind four seasons yeah. This has been an absolutepleasure for those of you. Who've been listening. If you are a reader likeDavid cancel, you might want to pick up conversational marketing our book thatwe just released rehumanize your business, even if someone wants tofollow up with you or your book or your podcast or your company person, waysfor people to connect with you online yeah, driftcom, the riftcom and for mepersonally, it's instagram is decancel DCA and Cel andthe same handle on twitter, and so those are the best ways to get to meawesome. I appreciate and value your time so much. It was an absolutepleasure and- and I hope you have a great rest of your afternoon- thank youthen, thanks for having me, I appreciate it and we can talk cluetrain any time you want. Okay sounds good. I gotto reread it now how Quizyou, okay, all right, you're listening to the customerexperience, podcast, no matter your role in delivering value and servingcustomers. You're intrusting, some of your most important and valuablemessages to faceless digital communication. You can do betterrehumonize. The experience by getting face to face through simple personalvideos, learn more and get started. Free at Bombomcom. You've beenlistening to the customer experience podcast to ensure that you never missan episode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visitvombomcom. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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