The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

19. Why Customer Experience Is The Only Differentiator Left w/ David Cancel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Whatever job you do, whatever industry you’re in, people are going to tell stories about their experiences with you.

It’s been said for a long time that customers that have a negative experience with a business are two to three times more likely to leave a review of that business than customers that have a good one.


A couple more stats that prove how important good customer experience is:

  • 88 percent of people trust online reviews as much as they trust their best friends’ recommendations.
  • 80 percent of people choose to go elsewhere if they read bad reviews of your business online.

Needless to say, if your customers aren’t telling positive stories about you, it’s impacting you. Whether you know it or not.

We've been in this world. OfIt's a all we care about is the company problems, and whatever we decide, we inflip that onto our customers. You're listening to the customer experience podcasts, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughoutthe customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customersuccess experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here'syour host, Ethan Butte. Welcome back to the customer experience podcast. Today'sguest, and I'm really excited to have him, is a five time founderand two time CEO. He founded compete ghost to reperformable and look eary.He was the chief product officer at hub spot for three years. He's currentlythe founder and CEO of drift, cohost of the excellent seeking wisdom podcast,Co author of the Book Conversational Marketing, a self professed obsessive reader and entrepreneurand residents at her business school. David cancel, welcome to the PODCAST.Thank you for having me, even I'm Super Sache to be here. talkedabout all things video, things customer awesome I cool. I did not knowwe're going to have a good video conversation here, but I'm excited to havethat to now that you introduce it. I will start here with with customerexperience. You know, one of my one of my premise premises as Igot into this was that, you know, you ask ten people what it meansand you'll get seven point for answers. When I say customer experience. Where'sthat conjure for you? What are some of the sacteristics? Yeah,and to me the kind of kind of think the same way in terms ofbrand experience. So I think customer experience to me, is a bigger thingthan I've heard usually define. And what I mean by it is like itis literally every touch point and every emotion that your brand and your product andyour your experience puts onto the customer and what they feel like that. Howdo they perceive your brand? How do they perceive your product? That's thecustomer experience. So it doesn't start and stop with a website, it doesn'tstart and stop with a product, it doesn't start and stop with a brand. It goes across all those things because if we think about the brands andthe customer experiences that we look to as being remarkable. There's no way toseparate out the product versus the people, versus the brand. It's all becomesone thing, and so I'm obsessed about every detail being part of the customerexperience. So good. I think one of the key things you offered inthere is this idea that the feelings right. So it's when all these things happen, right, I see your website or I talked to a person,or I have a product failure or product success, and that's part of it. But what am I left with? How do I feel about it?How do I think about in what stories do I tell other people about it? Hmm, I love that last part about what stories do I tell otherpeople about it's so key in the customer experience because if you're doing a great, well whatever job, how do you do? People are going to tellstories about that experience, so you can focus on making them good or ifyou ignore them, they can become mediocre or bad experiences. Right, Ithink the default is a lot of folks just don't think about it at all. It's just happening. You hope you hired someone decent. You hope youmaybe train them. Well, you hope, maybe you empower them. You justkind of let it happen and that's that's why we're having these conversations onthe show all the time. So conversational marketing kind of teach us up alittle bit, just for context. For first it may not be familiar.Talk a little bit about drift, a little bit about conversational marketing and whatis this concept of conversational marketing? What does its role in the customer experiencelike? What problems does it overcome? What value does it provide? Whatgaps does it fill? It's funny because so conversational marketing and the way I'llexplain it and what drift does and customer experience are all one thing, right. All of this we're doing conversation marketing, why we created drift as a companyand as a product and why we use it ourselves all stems from onething, which was this obsession that I've...

...had for the last decade, alittle over a decade now, on the customer experience and the customer experience beingthe most important thing and figuring out a way, which it's taking any timeto do over several companies, how do we incorporate that customer experience in everythingthat we do, right literally into how do we use it in building ourproducts from an engineering standpoint? How do we use it in our marketing?How do we use it, obviously in sales, but across every be partof the company? How do we incorporate that customer experience? So when westarted drift for you a little over four years ago now, we had anobservation. That observation was that customer experience was the most important thing. Butfor most of our our professional career, for my entire professional career, eventhough these ideas are not new and we had heard about the rise of thecustomer, the age of customer experience, they actually didn't matter, and I'llexplain that. It didn't matter because most companies were operating in ecosystems where itdidn't have much competition and those companies could dictate the sales process, could dictatehow they wanted to serve those customers. But if you fast forward to todayand back when we started the company four years ago, that's no longer true. Rite the entire paradigm is shifted. In every giving category there are infinitesupply of competitors, whether you sell directly to consumers, you sell be tobe, it doesn't matter. There's an infinite supply of competitors, and whatthat means is that all of a sudden, customer experience is the most important thingthat you can focus on his business. Even though we've known these ideas forten, fifteen, twenty years, they didn't matter back then. Theymatter. They're incredibly important today, and so we started drift. Drift basicallyhelps you, sits on your website and we are the fastest path between thecustomers and your prospects who come to your website and think about you upset asa store, even if you literally don't sell stuff on it, and thepeople inside your company and creating that conversation between those two two people. Theobservation was that we had also in the customer was in charge. And ifwe think about how businesses have always worked for all of time, if youhave a salespeople fin your your business. Okay, forget about Amazon and selfservice, but if you have the idea of a salesperson, you have neversold anything until you've had a conversation. Right. That is fundamental. Butwe have spent the last ten, fifteen years ago in this rise of digitalmarketing, in creating barriers between the customer, the prospect and the people inside thebuilding. And that's what we've all done and what I've done in thepast in terms of marketing, and it worked for a long time, butthen no longer works today. So conversational marketing allows you to turn Your Businessinto this twenty four seven, three hundred and sixty five available website that canservice your customers, and so we created this category conversational marketing like two yearsago, now, two and a half years ago, because we needed away to give this a name, and so we created this. We've writtena book around it. Now to category. Now there's lots of other companies inthis category and it's become a recognized thing of let's go to the fastestpath, let's actually literally have a conversation with our customers in our prospects,because that will always be the fastest path to one a customer but two tobuilding an incredible customer experience. That's excellent. You hit on so many things thatare really exciting to me. One of them is the idea that thebusiness used to dictate, or have the privilege of dictating the terms on whichyou engaged with customers. And of course that's to dramatically flipped to just toshare story. I think you'll enjoy this one. So we were about threemonths behind you and releasing our book Rehumanize Your Business. It's about simple personalvideos and we did a sales offer in the preorder window and Steve and Iare are CMO and my co author on the book. We were both hadwe used drift here at bombomb and so we had we had drift on thepage and you know, I was just monitoring it just to see if youknow, these conversations would pop up and it was easy to answer a bunchof the questions right, and so we could probably if we were going tocontinue to use that page, we probably write specific bots because we know,you know, twenty five percent of the...

...people ask some very variant of thisquestion in particular. But I had this guy that was so so we didthese tier packages. If you buy one, you get X, if you buythree you get why? If you get five hundred and ten and fifty, one hundred, five hundred and up to a thousand books. If youbuy a thousand books, you get all this stuff. So this guy's juststarts chatting about, you know, the higher level tears, and so I'mengaging. Then all of a sudden, you know, after back and forthof maybe fifteen or twenty messages with him live, we end up popping ontozoom and he did. Guy Buys a thousand books. That's a that's incredible. We should have done that tiered offer for conversational marketing. But you highlightan important thing which is now obvious to us, a drift and our customers, but wasn't obvious, I don't know why, in the early days ofstarting the company and building our product, which was those higher level people,those people capable of buying a thousand books, which is significant. Those people arenot going to convert the old way. They're not going to fill out aform, they're not going to wait for you to reply, to contactUS email, they're not going to wait for you to to get twenty sequencedemails. They want to talk to somebody right. It totally makes sense.Right, like those people and they probably want to talk to people off hoursbecause most of the time in business they're busy during the day and so theywant to converse with people. It's obvious now but we see it even ona data with our customers, like the higher level kind of titles, especiallyto see level titles. Those people will always default to talking to someone becausethey know what they're interested in, versus converting in the old ways. Butin the old you know, up until recently we were only giving them onepath to convert right in. The other interesting thing here to just in justto stay real practical on this example, is there's really no one else tohave that conversation with him right like Steve and I put them together. Ourwhole team was helpful and like building all the landing pages and doing all thestuff. But the sales team is not incentivized on book sales and the customerssupport and customers success team that's talking with customers all day and gets a lotof when people call into our toll free number. You know they don't knowall the details and nuances off this is there's no mechanism force internally in acompany of we're about a hundred and thirty people today. You know I'm notgoing to call it all company meeting to walk through the sales offer right andso so it was my conversation to have in and that he wasn't going toreply to an email with here my top fifteen questions before I commend. Soit was this. This to the conversational part of it. It's just kindof given give and take back and forth. The question he thought to ask inthe beginning is not where he landed. Five questions just for write. Youdidn't ask that fourth question off the gate or out of the gate,and so I think it was fantastic. I think I have about how importantthat customer is to bombomb a thousand books. Some credit right and what he wantsto do. I mean part of what we offered was that we will, Steve and I, on our own time, will come and spend anentire day with whoever you put in the room, if it's you and yourcofounder or if it's five of your best customers or your whole company or fivethousand people in an auditorium, will teach and talk on these themes for aday. That's really smart, that's really fun. We should have talk toyou before we launched our book, and there's maybe we'll get into that here. Truly there's so we just made it up as we went you know,there's no book for this thing is fun and interesting and things I do differently. But so let's go back to drift in customer experience. You know,it's obvious how this is a benefit to the company as well as to thecustomer, the customers. This gets the customer another channel or another means ofengaging with the company. Some people want to get on the phone, somepeople want to go back and forth an email, etc. So this isjust another way to do that, either partly or completely automated or truly personal, one to one, is what as what's my case with the gentleman whois kind enough to commit to that book purchase. So I understand it fromthose perspectives. But for you, as someone who is a self professed obsessiveon this topic and with per view over...

...the entire organization, all that,all the people and all the touch points, what are you doing kind of tacticallyto create some holism or consistency, to manage handoffs well, to makemeasure what's working? What are you doing structurally and practically and tactically inside yourcompany? As someone who really cares about customer experience a lot, how areyou bringing people together around it? Yeah, that's a great question and it goesback to the something I reference earlier, which is like actually the whole ideafor drift and the whole overlap a customer experience. It's like super metare we we wanted to create the most customer centric company possible, so wecreated a tool that allowed us to converse with our customers and from to learnfrom our customers. Then we that is the tool that we sell to otherpeople and those other companies use that tool to converse with their customers and getcloser to the customers and build, ideally, a more customer centric company. Soit's like it's Super Meta and cursive, right, this thing that we've created. But we've we figured out how to operationalize within our company the thingsthat we're learning from customers and how do we change the existing hierarchy, inthe existing roles within the company to match what our customers want? Right,if we think about the old way, which is this old way of fillingout the forms and doing all this stuff that we talked about, that way, that company centric view, created a whole slew of roles within our companiesand we know what those rules are. Right, all different versions of salespeople, whether you call them, the count executives, bedrs, SDRs, IDRs, you know, account managers, CSM's, Bob, all these kind of differentthings that we've created to specialize and to deal with all those different handoffpoints and in order to optimize that from a company experience standpoint. But whatwe've done is we even flipped that onto our customers. Are Customers don't carewhat your role and what your title is, right, they just want to answerto your question. So it's causing us to rethink what are the rolesthat we should create within the company. How was you? How would wereorganize the entire kind of idea of a company, a modern go to marketmotion around the customer? Right, and I always use the example of likeI like the apple store experience of when I walk into the apple store experience, I just talked to someone who works there. They may or might notbe able to answer my question, but they always walk me over to theperson who can. I don't know what any of those people's roles are,nor should I. Right, that's the experience I want. Or a highend hotel or we have lots of different examples that you just have an experiencewith someone and they've figured out how how to operationalize the internally. What wedid early on to get the specifics is that we created tools and frameworks internallyfor a different teams. We have tools for our product teams how they interpretwhat a customer saying, even how do they break down sentences and what thecustomer might be implying based on how they frame a specific question, and Icalled out the spotlight framework and you can find that online. So there's awhole little framework around how to use that for product development. And then we'vedone that for sales, we've done that from marketing, we've done it forall different teams. We're actually building into our product all of these capabilities sothat our customers don't have to learn this on their own, because we thinkwe can take all of this conversation data over time and create these playbooks,create these rules, create these things in there to help you have better conversationswith your customers without having to figure out how to change and how to howdo you make this stuff operational within the company? I love it. Areyou doing that a are you doing that on a per account basis of mistplaybook? We're doing it both. We're doing it across our entire customer base. So those are basic things that you learn about language across different customer basesand people who may be in similar selling motions. Right. And then we'redoing it lower level. We are doing it specific to that company and theway that things work for them. So we will analyze and make recommendations basedon successful interactions that have happened in the...

...past. Let's say it's a salesinteraction overdrift, and we see success and we see commonalities, or your topperformers. We see commonalities there. So we'll make recommendations that are very specificto your product, to your team as well, and what's work before sogood. I also want to double back to your apple store experience, andnor should I so important your company's problems are completely irrelevant to your customer Yep, and we've done that. We've done that for an entire, you know, entire assass industry, but for so many industries like we have for solong been in this world of and this is a major shift. This iswhy it's a big shift for people to go from where we've been to wherewe are now. We've been in this world of it's a all we careabout is the company problems and whatever we decide, we inflict that onto ourcustomers and that can that does work and it has worked in the past,but that only works in an economy where you are monopoly or close to monopoly. How you have very few competitors. Most businesses are not like that anddefinitely the future is not trending that way, into a in a world where youhave infinite supply of competitors, infinite supply of options, even if theysupply something totally different, as service versus software. In that world it cannever work right. In that world it is closer to consumer package goods worldand you decide between two versions of launder detergent than it is about anything else, and it has to come down to that holistic customer experience. Hundred percentso good. I want to go a little bit personal here really quick.So I've heard I love the work that you do. I love the wayyou look at the world. It's privilege to heavy on the show. Oneof the episodes I listened to was that was from the BB growth show withJames Carberry, I think it. I think it was released last summer ish. Yeah, and so he was in a lightning round with you, whichwas pretty fun when we talked about Boston restaurants and stuff. Yeah, whatis the number one thing you're trying to optimize in your life right now?And, without missing a beat, you said do you remember what you said? No, okay, you said experiences. Okay, yes, it's so,so, I like true, but it was the lightning round, sothere's no context. Can you talk about that a little bit? What doesit mean to be optimizing experiences in your life? It's so funny, youknow, if you were to ask me that question right off the cuff rightnow, I would have said happiness. But happiness I will qualify as justa kind of further refinement of experiences. So it's like these happy experiences,not just experiences. I think you know, it goes back to everything that we'retalking about. I think the only thing that we value, once allof our needs are met right, and we've gone down the maslow's hierarchy ofneeds right, and once all of our needs are left, the only thingthat's left our experiences, and I think we live in a world now wherewe will only pay this proportionally for experiences and outcomes right in those things areintertwined so that an experience or specific outcome, and I think anything that doesn't providean amazing experience doesn't provide the outcome. You one is just a commodity andyou have to be the Amazon of your market to be able to sellthose commodities. Everything else, every other business in the world, if you'renot an Amazon like business, you need to be selling an experience, andthat's what I'm looking for, that's what I'm chasing myself, because I'm justlike everyone else listening to this, like I care about these experiences. That'sall that's left. I live in a very first world's problem context here,like there's not a lot of if we're watching podcasts and we're on these highin machines and doing video and stuff like that, we are like we areso far on the side of first of all problems, right, like,if you listen to this, you're with me, right and in that world, experiences the only thing that's left. There's nothing left but experiences, andthat's how our partis prioritize my life. One of the experiences that I wantto live through. Everything else is a commodity. Is it too simple orshortsighted? To say that when we talk...

...about experiences, it's about how wemake people feel about themselves. I love how you friend, I feel smarterfor having listened to this, or I feel happier or more entertained or smarterand more empowered, whatever. Like. It's about how we make people feelabout themselves. Is that because she's like going too far? No, it'snot going too far. I think that is the core of it. That'sexactly it. I think you nailed it and I think we have over complicatedthings. We have, and that's what we do as humans. We're verycomplicated things. We want to make things more rational and a logical than theyare. But at the end of the day, it is how you paymake people feel, and that's all that we can do on this planet ishow do we make other those people around us, how do we make themfeel, and how do those people around us make us feel? That isit. That is all that we are and and I think we're coming backto that. So we're, I think we're coming full circle into that becausenow again, if you're listening to this, all of your needs are pretty muchmet. You know, it's it's nuance at this point and now it'sback to the original concept, which is simple but it's not easy to live, which is like it's all about the experiences and how do I want tomake people feel around me? How do I want my product to make themfeel? And that is what people value so good, and we pay forit. Yeah, the only thing we pay for, I think, disproportionally, is experiences. Right. That's why we want a certain you know product, a certain coffee, a certain whatever. It's not because of the little logicalidea behind this coffee of what exact beans are in here, what cupthey use. It's about how does this make me feel when I hold thiscoup when I buy this cop and, by the way, this Cup andbought this coffee and Boston's more extreens and starbucks, if you can believe it. How does this make me feel? It makes me feel a certain wayand that's what I'm paying for. Nice, and I would assume that the retailspace probably reflects all of that. Yes, exactly, totally matches,and that's why I love it, because their entire customer experience is perfectly executed, and that's another thing that I kind of Keek out on, which I'mguessing Yuge got on as well. Is that is the customers sprints. Isthe entire thing. So I care about every detail. How does this cuphow does this Cup feel? What is their logo like on this cup?How does it match the experience the servers when you come into the into therestaurant? How does the esthetics of the restaurant look like? Every single thingabout that makes me feel a certain way and that's why this place, whichis a baker in your here, can sell sweatshirts and hats and people willactually buy them and wear them around because they value that experience so good.I think if people would buy I'm sure people do wear starbucks gear, butbut if more people would do it, not that it would be in thestores. As that one is. I have like at least four topics Iwould love to get. I'll respect your time as well. I want totalk about books at two players. One I really enjoy your conversation with DavidGerhard on seeking wisdom about essential drucker radical and her five dysfunctions behind the cloud, etcetera. Guys like walk through a whole bunch of books that are available. You have like a public bookshelf that anyone, essentially like one of thoselittle free libraries I see over Boston, like they're all over my town.kind of like that, but in your lobby. Why is reading so importantto you and specific layer here? Are you one of those people that saysI read fifty books last year, but you actually listen to forty of themon audible at to Xpeed, or do you or read books? Read bookslike talking about reading and why it's important to you and how you do it. I'm a I'm an obsessive reader, so I'm usually reading five books minimumat the same time, which I'll talk about. I think he sets upthe important there, which I like to dig in. I was obsessed withreading early in my life and then I think my school experience, and thisis just mine, my school experience taught me to dislike reading because I wastaught, which I think most people are,...

...to read in a certain way,to read for memorization, to read for to say that I completed something, to read to be forced to read something without having the context understand whyI was reading that at that time. So taught me that. Later inlife I came back and said, like I rekindled my love of Reading fora whole bunch of reasons. One of them was I kind of discovered onmy own that and I came to realization that I think I was reading inthe wrong way. Like why did I have to memorize things in a book? Why did I have to read? Why did I have to read thisspecific book versus listen to it on non audio book? Why did I haveto, you know, complete the entire book and not give up on books? Why? We're all these things that I was kind of taught to do, and I said, you know what, these are all, I think inM for me wrong. Like reading is about, is about learning,is about growing on your own, it's about learning from other people's failures and, you know, incorporating that into your life, and so like there areno rules around reading. There that reading is you have to complete an entirebook, that you can never give up on a book. My wife,phone still has a rule like if she starts to books, she will nevergive up on a book, even though she's miserable and, you know,a quartered through the book which you will force yourself through that, which Ithink is a crazy idea. I think reading should be enjoyable, reading shouldbe a growth exercise and I don't think you should have hard and fast rulesabout reading, and I think you should not. For me, what Ifound valuable is not thinking that I can only read one book at a timeor specase specific genre. I like reading lots of different things because those ideascross pollinate together and they create an entirely new set of ideas once I startto read from different meetings. I also pick up books all the time,read a little bit, put them down because I've decided that I'm not interestedright now or I want to come back to that later, and I maycome back to that months later. I mean never come back to it,I may come back two years later. I also re read a lot ofbooks because I think that's important as well, because you're in a different context eachtime you read a book, and so that same book that you readtwenty years ago, if you read it five years later and ten years later, fifteen years later, you may be taking different you will probably be takinglessons, different lessons out than the first time of the second time or thethird time you read that book, and so I think those things are important. But I could talk about books forever, but I do I don't know whatthe number is. Now. I'm kind of wellknown for recommending a lotof books and so I'm always sending on book recommendations. We have an internalbook club at Drift where you can order as many books as you want endless. Every conference room here is named after different authors. In those rooms thereare stacks of books and we encourage everyone, including guests, to come in andtake as many books as you want. They're all free and we mail allbooks for people who listen to podcast all of the world every single day. That's amazing. I do have a follow up question, but it's funny. When Steve and I went we made a commitment to sign about one hundredcopies of our book. So we so we went to eight hundred CEO readwho I assume you're familiar with, and sign them all in person on siteand while we were there it was like we were at drift, I guess, because you know, our partner and friend Aaron was like no, justjust take any book you want, and it's like like for to ceiling yourshelves. You know it is here. He's like it's just take whatever youwant. Were like really, so we each pick out like four and hegoes, is that all you want? Were like, can we hear totake more? Take what did you anyway shift into us. It was awesomehere. Every person that comes in, whether there vendor, a customer,prospect, anybody, just like take a friend, take as many books asyou want. Take as many books as you want, and that is tous, is the ultimate gift, right. It's just like, take as manybooks as you want. And, like I said, you know,because we operate. You all operate from you know, we have the reptilianpart of our brains. We operate from a place of fear and scarcity.You will never go broke buying books. I've not met that person. Right. So, like, yeah, you will go grow up, buy anotherstuff, but not books. All right, so good. I do want todouble back on something you shared in...

...the in the previous answer, whichis this idea of reading different topics, different subjects, sign simultineously, becausewhat I hear in your words is creativity is blending previously disparate ideas into new, truly who ideas, because there's that line of thought that there are newidea. There are no new ideas, there is no new music, they'rejust different ways of blending these things together to create something new. Wish well, so talk about because I think this is an important part of it.Talk about consumption versus the free space to put those ideas together, like whileyou're reading. Sometimes that occurs to you. What I this is more of apersonal question than anything. Do you create quiet spaces for those things towork themselves out? A hundred percent. So I'm so glad that you broughtthis up, because this is a core part of of learning right, whetherit's through reading or through other means. Is like you always have to havethis quiet space in between the noise to be able to synthesize right and putthis stuff together. And for me it's a you know, everyone has adifferent way to do it. Like for me, this is going for longwalks, this is being nature, this is, you know, without headphones, without listening to something, this is just being comfortable being alone, andthose are the times when these things are synthesize. This is why we've heardthis age old stories of having ideas in the shower and ideas when you wentfor at the gym. It's not because the gym or the shower magical things. It's because you gave yourself permission to have that quiet time to let theseideas synthesize. So reading, this consumption, which I consume a lot, synthesisis totally there for an and synthesis happens after the fact. For me, sometimes it happens while reading, for more often than that it's after thefact. Is I'm just thinking about probably something out of left field just popsup and it's really a synthesis of these different ideas. Awesome. Talk nowabout conversational marketing, the look, not just the concept. Why a book? What role is it play? How is it surprised? You share anythingyou'd like about the experience of writing and publishing that book? Yeah, sowe you know we had an unfair kind of advantage and that we had Iwas at hub spot before this and so I had seen what the inbound marketingbook had meant and so how people reacted that. That was a long timeago now. But when we were thinking about this idea of conversational marketing,creating this category, we were thinking about how always the best way to communicateto this and I think it goes back to something that I think about alot and talk about a lot, which is, like everyone absorbs information slightlydifferent ways, right. So, like from my cofounder, he likes totalk things out and so he needs to experience write these things as he talksthem out and goes back and forth. Other people like me, need tolike sleep on things, synthesize things, and that's why I like reading somuch. Other people response to something else, and so we had ideas for allthese different ways to communicate the idea of conversational marketing. For for peoplelike me and people who enjoyed books, the book was an important part,but not just having a digital book, but having a physical book that theycould lean back on, and not of even a physical book that we published, but a physical book that was available at stores all around the world,because I think it's important to have that kind of ability for people to kindof bump into these ideas right to be out there thinking about some of thethings and like randomly bump into this book somewhere at an airport or a bookstoresomewhere, and that book being the right book for them at this right time. And so the book was important for us for a bunch of reasons,but it really came down to we know there are people that just love consumingnew ideas through this medium, and so we were going to use books,we're going to use video, we're going to use all these different mediums.And you know, books are important because they last. You know, ifyou write a great book, they can last longer than any of these othermediums that we're we're exposed to. So good. I'm thinking about right nowmy head. I'm thinking about just on that last passage. I'm thinking aboutpermission marketing. Yes, that going which...

...was published to one time ago,right, two more than twenty years ago. It's twenty. It just turned twentymore it's going to like in a couple months or something like. It'sit was one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. Well, that had bigimpact on me. Permission Marketing, purple cow, so many of Steff gooden'sbooks. Me Too in it. But I sorry, you're sorry. rereadpermission marketing about a year ago and it's so funny how far we have notcome relative to those ideas. Right, and I actually you honestly. Isee conversational marketing and what you're doing is as a bit of the evolution.Their set. Book was so anchored into email. A hundred percent percent they'retwo books that conversation marketing is derivative of. One of them is permission marketing,so you nail that and some aspects of purple cow kind of. Butthen the second is which I would advise everyone to go back and reread this. This book was from nineteen years old now, back in two thousand publish. Its called the cluetrain manifesto. Don't so good. We don't need totalk about that because the guy I'll take way too much of your time.Yeah, see, those two books just quit context for you. I wasin broadcast, I was running marketing inside the stations and in the early SI was trying to figure out what was next, because I just felt likeit kind of a dumb product on a daytoday basis. It was full intimes of crisis, but otherwise kind of just a dumb product and I justwasn't that into it anymore. And so I was. That was the riseof social but it's also just a right. I guess it was called Web twopoint out at the time it was so so all that stuff had sucha significant impact on me as I started to figure out how are these skillstransferable? Obviously, writing, shooting, photos and shooting videos are highly transferableto a variety of things and they lent themselves well to web. Two PointO clutrain manifesto was just amazing, really, really impactful. But it's like mostof the big transformations that were going through now. All of these areideas that we were talking about twenty years ago. Yet they were all,I guess every single one of them, where ideas before. Most of thoseideas failed back then because it was not the right time for them, right, we were not ready for them. But mostly ideas of the most popularcompanies in the world. Today we're ideas from twenty years ago, if notideas from thirty years ago. They're not new ideas because we are people.We have not evolved right. But now is the time where a lot ofthese ideas are right. The scale is there for them to actually work.COLU train manifesto was all about conversations, right, it being about the conversationsthat has had the biggest influence on conversational marketing. But it comes back fromthat book and Permission Marketing. Yeah, conversations and consumer choice is funny.Just going I guess I am going to stay in this topic. You knowyou know when I think about permission marketing, why something that see that that resonatedwith me probably fifteen years ago when I read it, and even evenmore so now that I have so much more exposure to to how the stuffcomes out in practice. At the time as just exploring ideas. I thinkit goes back to the beginning of our conversation here, which is a lotof people ignore them because it's easier to do it like we've been doing itand we still think we have that control, that we no longer have the coursedetails into clue trained manifesto, which is conversations as dictated by the consumerand not by the company themselves. You mentioned video. Off the top ofthis I want to know what do you think about video? How are youusing video? What is your interest in video? What is videos plays?What are its strengths? Yeah, I think if you if you follow driftonline in any medium, you see that we are insane and obsessed with video. We've really doubledne on video or from day one of starting the company.And why why we've done that is because we believe that it is one ofthese mega trends that we talked about that is transforming all of business right.The first one mega trend that we talked about was messaging, and that's whywe create a drift and why we chose messaging as the beginning, because itwasn't about the technology. It wasn't about the idea of messaging. Again,messaging had been both of us. I'm sure we're using some form of MessagingFifteen, twenty years ago. That there's nothing new. Like people think slackis new or WHATSOPP is new. All...

...those ideas existed. I use someversion of that twenty years ago. What's different, though, today, andwhy it's a mega trend is that because, mostly because of the smartphone adoption throughoutthe world, all of a sudden we're going from audiences of millions.You know, even sky took a long time to get to a hundred millionpeople two billions overnight, and all of those people are conversationally native, iswhat we call it. They've been born in messaging. They think it's normal. That is how they act, that's how they pay their bills, that'show they do everything around most of the world outside of the US. That'swhy it's a mega trend and why it's important for business. The Second Medmega trend that we've talked about from the beginning of drift is video, andvideo is something that, again, just like messaging around the world, istotally normal native. These are video native people are being born and raised rightnow, and it's not about just younger people. Think about out all ofthe demographics across the world and countries that never had access to the Internet.Those people are messy conversation native and their video native. And look at consumptionpatterns. If you look at consumption patterns and you see that most of onlinetraffic and most of the time, and you don't have to read any statsand know that's just walk across the street, walk into starbucks, walk into anyplace around the world and you see people doing this. Well, whatare they consuming? And mostly yeah, consuming most of the time on here, video. YEP, they're consuming video. And so if you don't think videohas a place in your business, you're crazy, because all consumption hasmoved there. And even when you look at companies like like facebook and othercompanies, they say in a couple of years ninety percent of their traffic willbe video. So how do you think video is not going to have animpact on your business right it's good. I love that you had that,that vision four years ago. Yeah, we're just following the trends. Itwas not even about like we always saw something that other people if you justlook at consumption patterns, and this is kind of a lesson. That's I'llleave this lesson for your audience, which is like this lesson took me morethan half of my career and if you can look at the white hairs onmy beard, you know that career has been long. But, like,it took me a long time to figure this out, especially as an entrepreneur, as an engineer and product person, which is you have to it's notenough to have a good idea, it's not enough to build a great product. You have to look at the momentum, in the trends that are happening inthe world. What are the changes in the world and how did theymake the product, of the service or the thing that you're building or sellingrelevant today? And so that took me a long time. That's pretty obvious. But it took me more than half my career to figure that out.And why? Because EGO and pride gets in the way when you want tocreate your own ideas and now I start by saying what is changing, whatis becoming normal, what is the new normal out there? And then howdo I change my business, my service, my offering to match how people wantto either consume things digest things, how they want to be treated,how they want their the experience to be? And so that's the job of business, all of businesses, to follow the way that all of us wantto change in our lives and what matches. There's just this idea that evolution isthe default. Right, things are constantly changing. They should be changedto this idea that we can set it up like whatever it is our businessor some aspect of our business, and like it's going to be okay becauseit worked for the last eighteen months. You know, that's over and Ithink we finally have enough examples that we're set through starting to see that evenin the biggest of companies right, they've seen all the massive disruption that's happeningin the world today across every given category and segment and they know that ifthey have not been disrupted yet, they're about to be disrupted. Yep,and it's to so many consistent themes here, going back to essentially potentially infinite competitors? Yes, we are living in a world of infinite competition, whetheryou want to believe that or not. So that is the way the worldis going. Just in Sass, which is the industry that that I'm in, that we're in together there, which is just a small subset of theworld. But you look at just my...

...history and Sass and I kind ofthink there's three waves of evolution that have happened. I was in the firstgeneration of Sass in the early two in two thousand, right in you beforewe even had the name Sass. We didn't have a category, we didn'teven know what to call we would. We said we're going to sell software. They e commerce right now was our idea for subscription in that world.That's when sales force and next weed in all these companies got started. Inthat world, those companies had no equivalent competitors, right that's sold SASS.They were competing with old kind of on Prem software solutions. That was theircompetition. So their competition was single digits or none. Then you go tothe next wave, which was ZENDESC and hup spot and all these companies gotit formed. There we had some competitors, but they were. Maybe we hadfive competitors that we could name. Really we didn't have that much competition. You look in Sass down every given category and I'd love for anyone totell me a category where they don't have tens, hundreds or, in ourcase, which were in sales and marketing, thousands of competitors. And that trendis increasing. It's not holding steady, it's not going down, it's increasing. And the reason why? It's simple. All of these countries aroundthe world are coming online now and now they know the the blueprint, theyknow how to build a technology, they know the go to market stuff.It's all available free on the on the Internet. How to build a salesteam, how to sell a product, how to you know how to buildit from a technical sample, and it's all information is for. So theonly thing left is experience at this point. So good, just kind of takingit back to where we started. I could go I don't know.It's been an absolute pleasure, your joy to speak with and to listen to. I want to end this where I always do, which is, youknow, relationships are our number one core value and and so I like togive you the chance to think or mentioned someone who's had a positive impact onyour life or career and mention one or more companies who you really respect forthe way they're delivering customer experience today. Sounds good, so I will.I will leave out the Cup out answers, which are my family and my wife, my mom, all those, but those are super meaningful. Iwill say from a shout out standpoint, I've had three. I've had havehad a lot of mentors in my life, but I have three early mentors inmy life and they all had two of them were my room mentors andone of them was a virtual mentor, where I learned through their writings andthrough their experiences. And those three mentors were all named Sam and so firstwith Sam Lee, or work for when I was in high school at awarehouse, and you really taught me most of the lessons that I'm still figuringout this today. Then it was Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart,and so if you haven't read the book made in America, read that Bookand You taught me about servant leadership and other things that were important and reallyfocusing on the customer. Whatever you think about Walmart, that book and whatthey did was transformational. And the third one was named Sam Sales and he'sa he's an entrepreneur and runs a public company here in Boston. He's taughtme the importance of people and over product, and now I believe ninety nine percentof this is all about people and one percent is about product. Andso those are the three that have really had an impact on my life.And then lastly, the company that I like. That's a tough one becauseI have a high bar, but I think we model a lot of thingsthat a lot of the experiences of a hotel chain called the four seasons.For seasons, you know that experience and what there's a great book that thefounder of Four Seasons wrote that I recommend everyone, and it's about this ideaof building this incredible service in a world where very little of it could bescripted right. And so how do you get your entire company providing this amazingexperience over and over and over? And I'm always fascinated by restaurants and byhotels specifically, because the product changes every single day. It's not like building, you know, a widget or piece of software, what have you,where you can get repeatability, because these are people based businesses and people aregoing to wake up on the wrong side of bed, whether it's a customeror someone on your team. And so how do you build those amazing experiences? I'd say Disney. Walt Disney,...

...as in the Walt Disney world,is pretty pretty close as well. So good free SAMs and four seasons.This has been an absolute pleasure for those of you who've been listening. Ifyou are a reader like David cancel, you might want to pick up conversationalmarketing, our book that we just released. Rehumanize your business deepnes someone wants tofollow up with you or your book or your podcast or your company.Are some ways for people to connect with you online? Yeah, driftcom,theraftcom and for me personally, it's Instagram, is decancel DC and Cel and thesame handle on twitter, and so there's are the best ways to getto me. Awesome. I appreciate and value your time so much. Itwas an absolute pleasure and and I hope you have a great rest of yourafternoon. Thank you, than thanks for having me. I appreciate it andwe can talk clue train anytime you want. Okay, so it's good. Igot to reread it now. Quiz you. Okay, all right,you're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering valueand serving customers, you're entrusting some of your most important and valuable messages tofaceless digital communication. You can do better. Rehumanize the experience by getting facetoface throughsimple, personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you nevermiss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visitbombombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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