The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

19. Why Customer Experience Is The Only Differentiator Left w/ David Cancel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Whatever job you do, whatever industry you’re in, people are going to tell stories about their experiences with you.

It’s been said for a long time that customers that have a negative experience with a business are two to three times more likely to leave a review of that business than customers that have a good one.


A couple more stats that prove how important good customer experience is:

  • 88 percent of people trust online reviews as much as they trust their best friends’ recommendations.
  • 80 percent of people choose to go elsewhere if they read bad reviews of your business online.

Needless to say, if your customers aren’t telling positive stories about you, it’s impacting you. Whether you know it or not.

We've been in this world. Of It's a all we care about is the company problems, and whatever we decide, we inflip that onto our customers. You're listening to the customer experience podcasts, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Welcome back to the customer experience podcast. Today's guest, and I'm really excited to have him, is a five time founder and two time CEO. He founded compete ghost to reperformable and look eary. He was the chief product officer at hub spot for three years. He's currently the founder and CEO of drift, cohost of the excellent seeking wisdom podcast, Co author of the Book Conversational Marketing, a self professed obsessive reader and entrepreneur and residents at her business school. David cancel, welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you for having me, even I'm Super Sache to be here. talked about all things video, things customer awesome I cool. I did not know we're going to have a good video conversation here, but I'm excited to have that to now that you introduce it. I will start here with with customer experience. You know, one of my one of my premise premises as I got into this was that, you know, you ask ten people what it means and you'll get seven point for answers. When I say customer experience. Where's that conjure for you? What are some of the sacteristics? Yeah, and to me the kind of kind of think the same way in terms of brand experience. So I think customer experience to me, is a bigger thing than I've heard usually define. And what I mean by it is like it is literally every touch point and every emotion that your brand and your product and your your experience puts onto the customer and what they feel like that. How do they perceive your brand? How do they perceive your product? That's the customer experience. So it doesn't start and stop with a website, it doesn't start and stop with a product, it doesn't start and stop with a brand. It goes across all those things because if we think about the brands and the customer experiences that we look to as being remarkable. There's no way to separate out the product versus the people, versus the brand. It's all becomes one thing, and so I'm obsessed about every detail being part of the customer experience. So good. I think one of the key things you offered in there is this idea that the feelings right. So it's when all these things happen, right, I see your website or I talked to a person, or I have a product failure or product success, and that's part of it. But what am I left with? How do I feel about it? How do I think about in what stories do I tell other people about it? Hmm, I love that last part about what stories do I tell other people about it's so key in the customer experience because if you're doing a great, well whatever job, how do you do? People are going to tell stories about that experience, so you can focus on making them good or if you ignore them, they can become mediocre or bad experiences. Right, I think the default is a lot of folks just don't think about it at all. It's just happening. You hope you hired someone decent. You hope you maybe train them. Well, you hope, maybe you empower them. You just kind of let it happen and that's that's why we're having these conversations on the show all the time. So conversational marketing kind of teach us up a little bit, just for context. For first it may not be familiar. Talk a little bit about drift, a little bit about conversational marketing and what is this concept of conversational marketing? What does its role in the customer experience like? What problems does it overcome? What value does it provide? What gaps does it fill? It's funny because so conversational marketing and the way I'll explain it and what drift does and customer experience are all one thing, right. All of this we're doing conversation marketing, why we created drift as a company and as a product and why we use it ourselves all stems from one thing, which was this obsession that I've...

...had for the last decade, a little over a decade now, on the customer experience and the customer experience being the most important thing and figuring out a way, which it's taking any time to do over several companies, how do we incorporate that customer experience in everything that we do, right literally into how do we use it in building our products from an engineering standpoint? How do we use it in our marketing? How do we use it, obviously in sales, but across every be part of the company? How do we incorporate that customer experience? So when we started drift for you a little over four years ago now, we had an observation. That observation was that customer experience was the most important thing. But for most of our our professional career, for my entire professional career, even though these ideas are not new and we had heard about the rise of the customer, the age of customer experience, they actually didn't matter, and I'll explain that. It didn't matter because most companies were operating in ecosystems where it didn't have much competition and those companies could dictate the sales process, could dictate how they wanted to serve those customers. But if you fast forward to today and back when we started the company four years ago, that's no longer true. Rite the entire paradigm is shifted. In every giving category there are infinite supply of competitors, whether you sell directly to consumers, you sell be to be, it doesn't matter. There's an infinite supply of competitors, and what that means is that all of a sudden, customer experience is the most important thing that you can focus on his business. Even though we've known these ideas for ten, fifteen, twenty years, they didn't matter back then. They matter. They're incredibly important today, and so we started drift. Drift basically helps you, sits on your website and we are the fastest path between the customers and your prospects who come to your website and think about you upset as a store, even if you literally don't sell stuff on it, and the people inside your company and creating that conversation between those two two people. The observation was that we had also in the customer was in charge. And if we think about how businesses have always worked for all of time, if you have a salespeople fin your your business. Okay, forget about Amazon and self service, but if you have the idea of a salesperson, you have never sold anything until you've had a conversation. Right. That is fundamental. But we have spent the last ten, fifteen years ago in this rise of digital marketing, in creating barriers between the customer, the prospect and the people inside the building. And that's what we've all done and what I've done in the past in terms of marketing, and it worked for a long time, but then no longer works today. So conversational marketing allows you to turn Your Business into this twenty four seven, three hundred and sixty five available website that can service your customers, and so we created this category conversational marketing like two years ago, now, two and a half years ago, because we needed a way to give this a name, and so we created this. We've written a book around it. Now to category. Now there's lots of other companies in this category and it's become a recognized thing of let's go to the fastest path, let's actually literally have a conversation with our customers in our prospects, because that will always be the fastest path to one a customer but two to building an incredible customer experience. That's excellent. You hit on so many things that are really exciting to me. One of them is the idea that the business used to dictate, or have the privilege of dictating the terms on which you engaged with customers. And of course that's to dramatically flipped to just to share story. I think you'll enjoy this one. So we were about three months behind you and releasing our book Rehumanize Your Business. It's about simple personal videos and we did a sales offer in the preorder window and Steve and I are are CMO and my co author on the book. We were both had we used drift here at bombomb and so we had we had drift on the page and you know, I was just monitoring it just to see if you know, these conversations would pop up and it was easy to answer a bunch of the questions right, and so we could probably if we were going to continue to use that page, we probably write specific bots because we know, you know, twenty five percent of the...

...people ask some very variant of this question in particular. But I had this guy that was so so we did these tier packages. If you buy one, you get X, if you buy three you get why? If you get five hundred and ten and fifty, one hundred, five hundred and up to a thousand books. If you buy a thousand books, you get all this stuff. So this guy's just starts chatting about, you know, the higher level tears, and so I'm engaging. Then all of a sudden, you know, after back and forth of maybe fifteen or twenty messages with him live, we end up popping onto zoom and he did. Guy Buys a thousand books. That's a that's incredible. We should have done that tiered offer for conversational marketing. But you highlight an important thing which is now obvious to us, a drift and our customers, but wasn't obvious, I don't know why, in the early days of starting the company and building our product, which was those higher level people, those people capable of buying a thousand books, which is significant. Those people are not going to convert the old way. They're not going to fill out a form, they're not going to wait for you to reply, to contact US email, they're not going to wait for you to to get twenty sequenced emails. They want to talk to somebody right. It totally makes sense. Right, like those people and they probably want to talk to people off hours because most of the time in business they're busy during the day and so they want to converse with people. It's obvious now but we see it even on a data with our customers, like the higher level kind of titles, especially to see level titles. Those people will always default to talking to someone because they know what they're interested in, versus converting in the old ways. But in the old you know, up until recently we were only giving them one path to convert right in. The other interesting thing here to just in just to stay real practical on this example, is there's really no one else to have that conversation with him right like Steve and I put them together. Our whole team was helpful and like building all the landing pages and doing all the stuff. But the sales team is not incentivized on book sales and the customers support and customers success team that's talking with customers all day and gets a lot of when people call into our toll free number. You know they don't know all the details and nuances off this is there's no mechanism force internally in a company of we're about a hundred and thirty people today. You know I'm not going to call it all company meeting to walk through the sales offer right and so so it was my conversation to have in and that he wasn't going to reply to an email with here my top fifteen questions before I commend. So it was this. This to the conversational part of it. It's just kind of given give and take back and forth. The question he thought to ask in the beginning is not where he landed. Five questions just for write. You didn't ask that fourth question off the gate or out of the gate, and so I think it was fantastic. I think I have about how important that customer is to bombomb a thousand books. Some credit right and what he wants to do. I mean part of what we offered was that we will, Steve and I, on our own time, will come and spend an entire day with whoever you put in the room, if it's you and your cofounder or if it's five of your best customers or your whole company or five thousand people in an auditorium, will teach and talk on these themes for a day. That's really smart, that's really fun. We should have talk to you before we launched our book, and there's maybe we'll get into that here. Truly there's so we just made it up as we went you know, there's no book for this thing is fun and interesting and things I do differently. But so let's go back to drift in customer experience. You know, it's obvious how this is a benefit to the company as well as to the customer, the customers. This gets the customer another channel or another means of engaging with the company. Some people want to get on the phone, some people want to go back and forth an email, etc. So this is just another way to do that, either partly or completely automated or truly personal, one to one, is what as what's my case with the gentleman who is kind enough to commit to that book purchase. So I understand it from those perspectives. But for you, as someone who is a self professed obsessive on this topic and with per view over...

...the entire organization, all that, all the people and all the touch points, what are you doing kind of tactically to create some holism or consistency, to manage handoffs well, to make measure what's working? What are you doing structurally and practically and tactically inside your company? As someone who really cares about customer experience a lot, how are you bringing people together around it? Yeah, that's a great question and it goes back to the something I reference earlier, which is like actually the whole idea for drift and the whole overlap a customer experience. It's like super met are we we wanted to create the most customer centric company possible, so we created a tool that allowed us to converse with our customers and from to learn from our customers. Then we that is the tool that we sell to other people and those other companies use that tool to converse with their customers and get closer to the customers and build, ideally, a more customer centric company. So it's like it's Super Meta and cursive, right, this thing that we've created. But we've we figured out how to operationalize within our company the things that we're learning from customers and how do we change the existing hierarchy, in the existing roles within the company to match what our customers want? Right, if we think about the old way, which is this old way of filling out the forms and doing all this stuff that we talked about, that way, that company centric view, created a whole slew of roles within our companies and we know what those rules are. Right, all different versions of salespeople, whether you call them, the count executives, bedrs, SDRs, IDRs, you know, account managers, CSM's, Bob, all these kind of different things that we've created to specialize and to deal with all those different handoff points and in order to optimize that from a company experience standpoint. But what we've done is we even flipped that onto our customers. Are Customers don't care what your role and what your title is, right, they just want to answer to your question. So it's causing us to rethink what are the roles that we should create within the company. How was you? How would we reorganize the entire kind of idea of a company, a modern go to market motion around the customer? Right, and I always use the example of like I like the apple store experience of when I walk into the apple store experience, I just talked to someone who works there. They may or might not be able to answer my question, but they always walk me over to the person who can. I don't know what any of those people's roles are, nor should I. Right, that's the experience I want. Or a high end hotel or we have lots of different examples that you just have an experience with someone and they've figured out how how to operationalize the internally. What we did early on to get the specifics is that we created tools and frameworks internally for a different teams. We have tools for our product teams how they interpret what a customer saying, even how do they break down sentences and what the customer might be implying based on how they frame a specific question, and I called out the spotlight framework and you can find that online. So there's a whole little framework around how to use that for product development. And then we've done that for sales, we've done that from marketing, we've done it for all different teams. We're actually building into our product all of these capabilities so that our customers don't have to learn this on their own, because we think we can take all of this conversation data over time and create these playbooks, create these rules, create these things in there to help you have better conversations with your customers without having to figure out how to change and how to how do you make this stuff operational within the company? I love it. Are you doing that a are you doing that on a per account basis of mist playbook? We're doing it both. We're doing it across our entire customer base. So those are basic things that you learn about language across different customer bases and people who may be in similar selling motions. Right. And then we're doing it lower level. We are doing it specific to that company and the way that things work for them. So we will analyze and make recommendations based on successful interactions that have happened in the...

...past. Let's say it's a sales interaction overdrift, and we see success and we see commonalities, or your top performers. We see commonalities there. So we'll make recommendations that are very specific to your product, to your team as well, and what's work before so good. I also want to double back to your apple store experience, and nor should I so important your company's problems are completely irrelevant to your customer Yep, and we've done that. We've done that for an entire, you know, entire assass industry, but for so many industries like we have for so long been in this world of and this is a major shift. This is why it's a big shift for people to go from where we've been to where we are now. We've been in this world of it's a all we care about is the company problems and whatever we decide, we inflict that onto our customers and that can that does work and it has worked in the past, but that only works in an economy where you are monopoly or close to monopoly. How you have very few competitors. Most businesses are not like that and definitely the future is not trending that way, into a in a world where you have infinite supply of competitors, infinite supply of options, even if they supply something totally different, as service versus software. In that world it can never work right. In that world it is closer to consumer package goods world and you decide between two versions of launder detergent than it is about anything else, and it has to come down to that holistic customer experience. Hundred percent so good. I want to go a little bit personal here really quick. So I've heard I love the work that you do. I love the way you look at the world. It's privilege to heavy on the show. One of the episodes I listened to was that was from the BB growth show with James Carberry, I think it. I think it was released last summer ish. Yeah, and so he was in a lightning round with you, which was pretty fun when we talked about Boston restaurants and stuff. Yeah, what is the number one thing you're trying to optimize in your life right now? And, without missing a beat, you said do you remember what you said? No, okay, you said experiences. Okay, yes, it's so, so, I like true, but it was the lightning round, so there's no context. Can you talk about that a little bit? What does it mean to be optimizing experiences in your life? It's so funny, you know, if you were to ask me that question right off the cuff right now, I would have said happiness. But happiness I will qualify as just a kind of further refinement of experiences. So it's like these happy experiences, not just experiences. I think you know, it goes back to everything that we're talking about. I think the only thing that we value, once all of our needs are met right, and we've gone down the maslow's hierarchy of needs right, and once all of our needs are left, the only thing that's left our experiences, and I think we live in a world now where we will only pay this proportionally for experiences and outcomes right in those things are intertwined so that an experience or specific outcome, and I think anything that doesn't provide an amazing experience doesn't provide the outcome. You one is just a commodity and you have to be the Amazon of your market to be able to sell those commodities. Everything else, every other business in the world, if you're not an Amazon like business, you need to be selling an experience, and that's what I'm looking for, that's what I'm chasing myself, because I'm just like everyone else listening to this, like I care about these experiences. That's all that's left. I live in a very first world's problem context here, like there's not a lot of if we're watching podcasts and we're on these high in machines and doing video and stuff like that, we are like we are so far on the side of first of all problems, right, like, if you listen to this, you're with me, right and in that world, experiences the only thing that's left. There's nothing left but experiences, and that's how our partis prioritize my life. One of the experiences that I want to live through. Everything else is a commodity. Is it too simple or shortsighted? To say that when we talk...

...about experiences, it's about how we make people feel about themselves. I love how you friend, I feel smarter for having listened to this, or I feel happier or more entertained or smarter and more empowered, whatever. Like. It's about how we make people feel about themselves. Is that because she's like going too far? No, it's not going too far. I think that is the core of it. That's exactly it. I think you nailed it and I think we have over complicated things. We have, and that's what we do as humans. We're very complicated things. We want to make things more rational and a logical than they are. But at the end of the day, it is how you pay make people feel, and that's all that we can do on this planet is how do we make other those people around us, how do we make them feel, and how do those people around us make us feel? That is it. That is all that we are and and I think we're coming back to that. So we're, I think we're coming full circle into that because now again, if you're listening to this, all of your needs are pretty much met. You know, it's it's nuance at this point and now it's back to the original concept, which is simple but it's not easy to live, which is like it's all about the experiences and how do I want to make people feel around me? How do I want my product to make them feel? And that is what people value so good, and we pay for it. Yeah, the only thing we pay for, I think, disproportionally, is experiences. Right. That's why we want a certain you know product, a certain coffee, a certain whatever. It's not because of the little logical idea behind this coffee of what exact beans are in here, what cup they use. It's about how does this make me feel when I hold this coup when I buy this cop and, by the way, this Cup and bought this coffee and Boston's more extreens and starbucks, if you can believe it. How does this make me feel? It makes me feel a certain way and that's what I'm paying for. Nice, and I would assume that the retail space probably reflects all of that. Yes, exactly, totally matches, and that's why I love it, because their entire customer experience is perfectly executed, and that's another thing that I kind of Keek out on, which I'm guessing Yuge got on as well. Is that is the customers sprints. Is the entire thing. So I care about every detail. How does this cup how does this Cup feel? What is their logo like on this cup? How does it match the experience the servers when you come into the into the restaurant? How does the esthetics of the restaurant look like? Every single thing about that makes me feel a certain way and that's why this place, which is a baker in your here, can sell sweatshirts and hats and people will actually buy them and wear them around because they value that experience so good. I think if people would buy I'm sure people do wear starbucks gear, but but if more people would do it, not that it would be in the stores. As that one is. I have like at least four topics I would love to get. I'll respect your time as well. I want to talk about books at two players. One I really enjoy your conversation with David Gerhard on seeking wisdom about essential drucker radical and her five dysfunctions behind the cloud, etcetera. Guys like walk through a whole bunch of books that are available. You have like a public bookshelf that anyone, essentially like one of those little free libraries I see over Boston, like they're all over my town. kind of like that, but in your lobby. Why is reading so important to you and specific layer here? Are you one of those people that says I read fifty books last year, but you actually listen to forty of them on audible at to Xpeed, or do you or read books? Read books like talking about reading and why it's important to you and how you do it. I'm a I'm an obsessive reader, so I'm usually reading five books minimum at the same time, which I'll talk about. I think he sets up the important there, which I like to dig in. I was obsessed with reading early in my life and then I think my school experience, and this is just mine, my school experience taught me to dislike reading because I was taught, which I think most people are,...

...to read in a certain way, to read for memorization, to read for to say that I completed something, to read to be forced to read something without having the context understand why I was reading that at that time. So taught me that. Later in life I came back and said, like I rekindled my love of Reading for a whole bunch of reasons. One of them was I kind of discovered on my own that and I came to realization that I think I was reading in the wrong way. Like why did I have to memorize things in a book? Why did I have to read? Why did I have to read this specific book versus listen to it on non audio book? Why did I have to, you know, complete the entire book and not give up on books? Why? We're all these things that I was kind of taught to do, and I said, you know what, these are all, I think in M for me wrong. Like reading is about, is about learning, is about growing on your own, it's about learning from other people's failures and, you know, incorporating that into your life, and so like there are no rules around reading. There that reading is you have to complete an entire book, that you can never give up on a book. My wife, phone still has a rule like if she starts to books, she will never give up on a book, even though she's miserable and, you know, a quartered through the book which you will force yourself through that, which I think is a crazy idea. I think reading should be enjoyable, reading should be a growth exercise and I don't think you should have hard and fast rules about reading, and I think you should not. For me, what I found valuable is not thinking that I can only read one book at a time or specase specific genre. I like reading lots of different things because those ideas cross pollinate together and they create an entirely new set of ideas once I start to read from different meetings. I also pick up books all the time, read a little bit, put them down because I've decided that I'm not interested right now or I want to come back to that later, and I may come back to that months later. I mean never come back to it, I may come back two years later. I also re read a lot of books because I think that's important as well, because you're in a different context each time you read a book, and so that same book that you read twenty years ago, if you read it five years later and ten years later, fifteen years later, you may be taking different you will probably be taking lessons, different lessons out than the first time of the second time or the third time you read that book, and so I think those things are important. But I could talk about books forever, but I do I don't know what the number is. Now. I'm kind of wellknown for recommending a lot of books and so I'm always sending on book recommendations. We have an internal book club at Drift where you can order as many books as you want endless. Every conference room here is named after different authors. In those rooms there are stacks of books and we encourage everyone, including guests, to come in and take as many books as you want. They're all free and we mail all books for people who listen to podcast all of the world every single day. That's amazing. I do have a follow up question, but it's funny. When Steve and I went we made a commitment to sign about one hundred copies of our book. So we so we went to eight hundred CEO read who I assume you're familiar with, and sign them all in person on site and while we were there it was like we were at drift, I guess, because you know, our partner and friend Aaron was like no, just just take any book you want, and it's like like for to ceiling your shelves. You know it is here. He's like it's just take whatever you want. Were like really, so we each pick out like four and he goes, is that all you want? Were like, can we hear to take more? Take what did you anyway shift into us. It was awesome here. Every person that comes in, whether there vendor, a customer, prospect, anybody, just like take a friend, take as many books as you want. Take as many books as you want, and that is to us, is the ultimate gift, right. It's just like, take as many books as you want. And, like I said, you know, because we operate. You all operate from you know, we have the reptilian part of our brains. We operate from a place of fear and scarcity. You will never go broke buying books. I've not met that person. Right. So, like, yeah, you will go grow up, buy another stuff, but not books. All right, so good. I do want to double back on something you shared in...

...the in the previous answer, which is this idea of reading different topics, different subjects, sign simultineously, because what I hear in your words is creativity is blending previously disparate ideas into new, truly who ideas, because there's that line of thought that there are new idea. There are no new ideas, there is no new music, they're just different ways of blending these things together to create something new. Wish well, so talk about because I think this is an important part of it. Talk about consumption versus the free space to put those ideas together, like while you're reading. Sometimes that occurs to you. What I this is more of a personal question than anything. Do you create quiet spaces for those things to work themselves out? A hundred percent. So I'm so glad that you brought this up, because this is a core part of of learning right, whether it's through reading or through other means. Is like you always have to have this quiet space in between the noise to be able to synthesize right and put this stuff together. And for me it's a you know, everyone has a different way to do it. Like for me, this is going for long walks, this is being nature, this is, you know, without headphones, without listening to something, this is just being comfortable being alone, and those are the times when these things are synthesize. This is why we've heard this age old stories of having ideas in the shower and ideas when you went for at the gym. It's not because the gym or the shower magical things. It's because you gave yourself permission to have that quiet time to let these ideas synthesize. So reading, this consumption, which I consume a lot, synthesis is totally there for an and synthesis happens after the fact. For me, sometimes it happens while reading, for more often than that it's after the fact. Is I'm just thinking about probably something out of left field just pops up and it's really a synthesis of these different ideas. Awesome. Talk now about conversational marketing, the look, not just the concept. Why a book? What role is it play? How is it surprised? You share anything you'd like about the experience of writing and publishing that book? Yeah, so we you know we had an unfair kind of advantage and that we had I was at hub spot before this and so I had seen what the inbound marketing book had meant and so how people reacted that. That was a long time ago now. But when we were thinking about this idea of conversational marketing, creating this category, we were thinking about how always the best way to communicate to this and I think it goes back to something that I think about a lot and talk about a lot, which is, like everyone absorbs information slightly different ways, right. So, like from my cofounder, he likes to talk things out and so he needs to experience write these things as he talks them out and goes back and forth. Other people like me, need to like sleep on things, synthesize things, and that's why I like reading so much. Other people response to something else, and so we had ideas for all these different ways to communicate the idea of conversational marketing. For for people like me and people who enjoyed books, the book was an important part, but not just having a digital book, but having a physical book that they could lean back on, and not of even a physical book that we published, but a physical book that was available at stores all around the world, because I think it's important to have that kind of ability for people to kind of bump into these ideas right to be out there thinking about some of the things and like randomly bump into this book somewhere at an airport or a bookstore somewhere, and that book being the right book for them at this right time. And so the book was important for us for a bunch of reasons, but it really came down to we know there are people that just love consuming new ideas through this medium, and so we were going to use books, we're going to use video, we're going to use all these different mediums. And you know, books are important because they last. You know, if you write a great book, they can last longer than any of these other mediums that we're we're exposed to. So good. I'm thinking about right now my head. I'm thinking about just on that last passage. I'm thinking about permission marketing. Yes, that going which...

...was published to one time ago, right, two more than twenty years ago. It's twenty. It just turned twenty more it's going to like in a couple months or something like. It's it was one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. Well, that had big impact on me. Permission Marketing, purple cow, so many of Steff gooden's books. Me Too in it. But I sorry, you're sorry. reread permission marketing about a year ago and it's so funny how far we have not come relative to those ideas. Right, and I actually you honestly. I see conversational marketing and what you're doing is as a bit of the evolution. Their set. Book was so anchored into email. A hundred percent percent they're two books that conversation marketing is derivative of. One of them is permission marketing, so you nail that and some aspects of purple cow kind of. But then the second is which I would advise everyone to go back and reread this. This book was from nineteen years old now, back in two thousand publish. Its called the cluetrain manifesto. Don't so good. We don't need to talk about that because the guy I'll take way too much of your time. Yeah, see, those two books just quit context for you. I was in broadcast, I was running marketing inside the stations and in the early S I was trying to figure out what was next, because I just felt like it kind of a dumb product on a daytoday basis. It was full in times of crisis, but otherwise kind of just a dumb product and I just wasn't that into it anymore. And so I was. That was the rise of social but it's also just a right. I guess it was called Web two point out at the time it was so so all that stuff had such a significant impact on me as I started to figure out how are these skills transferable? Obviously, writing, shooting, photos and shooting videos are highly transferable to a variety of things and they lent themselves well to web. Two Point O clutrain manifesto was just amazing, really, really impactful. But it's like most of the big transformations that were going through now. All of these are ideas that we were talking about twenty years ago. Yet they were all, I guess every single one of them, where ideas before. Most of those ideas failed back then because it was not the right time for them, right, we were not ready for them. But mostly ideas of the most popular companies in the world. Today we're ideas from twenty years ago, if not ideas from thirty years ago. They're not new ideas because we are people. We have not evolved right. But now is the time where a lot of these ideas are right. The scale is there for them to actually work. COLU train manifesto was all about conversations, right, it being about the conversations that has had the biggest influence on conversational marketing. But it comes back from that book and Permission Marketing. Yeah, conversations and consumer choice is funny. Just going I guess I am going to stay in this topic. You know you know when I think about permission marketing, why something that see that that resonated with me probably fifteen years ago when I read it, and even even more so now that I have so much more exposure to to how the stuff comes out in practice. At the time as just exploring ideas. I think it goes back to the beginning of our conversation here, which is a lot of people ignore them because it's easier to do it like we've been doing it and we still think we have that control, that we no longer have the course details into clue trained manifesto, which is conversations as dictated by the consumer and not by the company themselves. You mentioned video. Off the top of this I want to know what do you think about video? How are you using video? What is your interest in video? What is videos plays? What are its strengths? Yeah, I think if you if you follow drift online in any medium, you see that we are insane and obsessed with video. We've really doubledne on video or from day one of starting the company. And why why we've done that is because we believe that it is one of these mega trends that we talked about that is transforming all of business right. The first one mega trend that we talked about was messaging, and that's why we create a drift and why we chose messaging as the beginning, because it wasn't about the technology. It wasn't about the idea of messaging. Again, messaging had been both of us. I'm sure we're using some form of Messaging Fifteen, twenty years ago. That there's nothing new. Like people think slack is new or WHATSOPP is new. All...

...those ideas existed. I use some version of that twenty years ago. What's different, though, today, and why it's a mega trend is that because, mostly because of the smartphone adoption throughout the world, all of a sudden we're going from audiences of millions. You know, even sky took a long time to get to a hundred million people two billions overnight, and all of those people are conversationally native, is what we call it. They've been born in messaging. They think it's normal. That is how they act, that's how they pay their bills, that's how they do everything around most of the world outside of the US. That's why it's a mega trend and why it's important for business. The Second Med mega trend that we've talked about from the beginning of drift is video, and video is something that, again, just like messaging around the world, is totally normal native. These are video native people are being born and raised right now, and it's not about just younger people. Think about out all of the demographics across the world and countries that never had access to the Internet. Those people are messy conversation native and their video native. And look at consumption patterns. If you look at consumption patterns and you see that most of online traffic and most of the time, and you don't have to read any stats and know that's just walk across the street, walk into starbucks, walk into any place around the world and you see people doing this. Well, what are they consuming? And mostly yeah, consuming most of the time on here, video. YEP, they're consuming video. And so if you don't think video has a place in your business, you're crazy, because all consumption has moved there. And even when you look at companies like like facebook and other companies, they say in a couple of years ninety percent of their traffic will be video. So how do you think video is not going to have an impact on your business right it's good. I love that you had that, that vision four years ago. Yeah, we're just following the trends. It was not even about like we always saw something that other people if you just look at consumption patterns, and this is kind of a lesson. That's I'll leave this lesson for your audience, which is like this lesson took me more than half of my career and if you can look at the white hairs on my beard, you know that career has been long. But, like, it took me a long time to figure this out, especially as an entrepreneur, as an engineer and product person, which is you have to it's not enough to have a good idea, it's not enough to build a great product. You have to look at the momentum, in the trends that are happening in the world. What are the changes in the world and how did they make the product, of the service or the thing that you're building or selling relevant today? And so that took me a long time. That's pretty obvious. But it took me more than half my career to figure that out. And why? Because EGO and pride gets in the way when you want to create your own ideas and now I start by saying what is changing, what is becoming normal, what is the new normal out there? And then how do I change my business, my service, my offering to match how people want to either consume things digest things, how they want to be treated, how they want their the experience to be? And so that's the job of business, all of businesses, to follow the way that all of us want to change in our lives and what matches. There's just this idea that evolution is the default. Right, things are constantly changing. They should be changed to this idea that we can set it up like whatever it is our business or some aspect of our business, and like it's going to be okay because it worked for the last eighteen months. You know, that's over and I think we finally have enough examples that we're set through starting to see that even in the biggest of companies right, they've seen all the massive disruption that's happening in the world today across every given category and segment and they know that if they have not been disrupted yet, they're about to be disrupted. Yep, and it's to so many consistent themes here, going back to essentially potentially infinite competitors? Yes, we are living in a world of infinite competition, whether you want to believe that or not. So that is the way the world is going. Just in Sass, which is the industry that that I'm in, that we're in together there, which is just a small subset of the world. But you look at just my...

...history and Sass and I kind of think there's three waves of evolution that have happened. I was in the first generation of Sass in the early two in two thousand, right in you before we even had the name Sass. We didn't have a category, we didn't even know what to call we would. We said we're going to sell software. They e commerce right now was our idea for subscription in that world. That's when sales force and next weed in all these companies got started. In that world, those companies had no equivalent competitors, right that's sold SASS. They were competing with old kind of on Prem software solutions. That was their competition. So their competition was single digits or none. Then you go to the next wave, which was ZENDESC and hup spot and all these companies got it formed. There we had some competitors, but they were. Maybe we had five competitors that we could name. Really we didn't have that much competition. You look in Sass down every given category and I'd love for anyone to tell me a category where they don't have tens, hundreds or, in our case, which were in sales and marketing, thousands of competitors. And that trend is increasing. It's not holding steady, it's not going down, it's increasing. And the reason why? It's simple. All of these countries around the world are coming online now and now they know the the blueprint, they know how to build a technology, they know the go to market stuff. It's all available free on the on the Internet. How to build a sales team, how to sell a product, how to you know how to build it from a technical sample, and it's all information is for. So the only thing left is experience at this point. So good, just kind of taking it back to where we started. I could go I don't know. It's been an absolute pleasure, your joy to speak with and to listen to. I want to end this where I always do, which is, you know, relationships are our number one core value and and so I like to give you the chance to think or mentioned someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and mention one or more companies who you really respect for the way they're delivering customer experience today. Sounds good, so I will. I will leave out the Cup out answers, which are my family and my wife, my mom, all those, but those are super meaningful. I will say from a shout out standpoint, I've had three. I've had have had a lot of mentors in my life, but I have three early mentors in my life and they all had two of them were my room mentors and one of them was a virtual mentor, where I learned through their writings and through their experiences. And those three mentors were all named Sam and so first with Sam Lee, or work for when I was in high school at a warehouse, and you really taught me most of the lessons that I'm still figuring out this today. Then it was Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart, and so if you haven't read the book made in America, read that Book and You taught me about servant leadership and other things that were important and really focusing on the customer. Whatever you think about Walmart, that book and what they did was transformational. And the third one was named Sam Sales and he's a he's an entrepreneur and runs a public company here in Boston. He's taught me the importance of people and over product, and now I believe ninety nine percent of this is all about people and one percent is about product. And so those are the three that have really had an impact on my life. And then lastly, the company that I like. That's a tough one because I have a high bar, but I think we model a lot of things that a lot of the experiences of a hotel chain called the four seasons. For seasons, you know that experience and what there's a great book that the founder of Four Seasons wrote that I recommend everyone, and it's about this idea of building this incredible service in a world where very little of it could be scripted right. And so how do you get your entire company providing this amazing experience over and over and over? And I'm always fascinated by restaurants and by hotels specifically, because the product changes every single day. It's not like building, you know, a widget or piece of software, what have you, where you can get repeatability, because these are people based businesses and people are going to wake up on the wrong side of bed, whether it's a customer or someone on your team. And so how do you build those amazing experiences? I'd say Disney. Walt Disney,...

...as in the Walt Disney world, is pretty pretty close as well. So good free SAMs and four seasons. This has been an absolute pleasure for those of you who've been listening. If you are a reader like David cancel, you might want to pick up conversational marketing, our book that we just released. Rehumanize your business deepnes someone wants to follow up with you or your book or your podcast or your company. Are some ways for people to connect with you online? Yeah, driftcom, theraftcom and for me personally, it's Instagram, is decancel DC and Cel and the same handle on twitter, and so there's are the best ways to get to me. Awesome. I appreciate and value your time so much. It was an absolute pleasure and and I hope you have a great rest of your afternoon. Thank you, than thanks for having me. I appreciate it and we can talk clue train anytime you want. Okay, so it's good. I got to reread it now. Quiz you. Okay, all right, you're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're entrusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. Rehumanize the experience by getting facetoface through simple, personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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