The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

25. Why Friction is a Customer Experience Killer w/ Brian Gilman


Brian Gilman has decades of experience in product/service marketing. Right now, he’s the VP of Marketing at Vonage.

He was kind enough to come on the show to talk about how friction is killing companies, as well as how products and competitive intelligence relate to the customer experience.

Friction is the thing that is killing a lot of companies today in terms of their customer experience. If you can remove that layer of friction through having better intelligence, more machine learning to get from the appropriated the great customer to the appropriate agent, you win. You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Welcome back to the customer experience podcast. If you want to talk product marketing and service marketing and more, you're in for a treat here. We've got Brian Gilman, who has decades of experience in product marketing, service marketing, go to market strategy nationally and globally with companies like polycommon a via. He's currently the VP of product marketing at bondage, a position he's held for two years. Brian, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. Will start with you. Where I start with everyone which is a customer experience? What does it mean to you? What are its characteristics? How do you think about it? Yeah, we do. We think about customer experience. He here advantage. I think has been an evolution. When you look at you know, you mentioned my previous lives, that of I and polly calm. I think the customer experience is really changed. I think historically customer experience was about, let me flip out, the number of channels with which my contacts and our conserve you and it was always a very business driven experience and for a long time I think that that really satisfied the needs of most. But in the past several years, you know, I think that the market is really flipped on its head and customer experience now is more about serving the customers needs in the channel of their choice, and I think a lot of that is being driven by social media, a lot of that is being driven by video, a lot of these new tools and solutions that customers have that they're communicating with themselves, whether that be college kids communicating with their parents or, you know, with my kids. My kids don't talk to each other on a phone anymore. They talk to their friends over their xbox, and so the expectation of how they want to interact with one another is now carrying forward to the business and the businesses who are evolving are succeeding. Those that aren't are falling behind. I love it. I think something relatively unique at the that you've offered here. I've asked it to dozens of people now. Is this. Very explicitly, it has been business driven. What is the business want to do? How does the business want to dictate what the options are? And customers have a lot more power than they did before, they have a lot more choices than before, and so there's there's an evolutionary layer to it. What are just to follow up on that? What are some of the things that a Ford looking company might be doing in order to...

...accommodate the customer to meet or exceed those expectations that are now more important than ever? Yeah, absolutely so. I think when we look at the leaders in customer experience today, you're looking at companies like Amazon. I'm going to I'm probably going to going to kill one of my answers for later in the podcast. By a company that I always looked to is dominoes. You know, Dominos is a historically a pizza company, but they're not a pizza company anymore. There are technology company. That happens would liver pizzas to people. I think that when you look at companies and how they're having to evolve, you know, the retailer, the average retailer, isn't competing with the boutique down the block anymore. They're competing with Amazon, the local Credit Union or Community Bank. They're not competing against one another anymore. They're competing with Chase Bank of America, and these are companies that are providing next generations self service solutions to their customers. And so if I'm not being dealt with in the means that I want to be dealt with as a customer, today I'm going to go to the guy down the block, and the guy down the block once again, is it is only down a virtual block? It's not. It's not a literal block anymore and you're going to go where your needs are best served. So today, the companies that are evolving that are looking at, how can we change where the conversation is taking place. Before we started the podcast today, we were talking about the fact that I don't call my kids cell phones anymore because they know they're not going to pick it up. But I know that within thirty seconds of me sending them a text message I'll get a response. The companies that are thinking through these challenge wages of where can we serve the customer better? How can we solve for first call resolution when a customer calls with a complaint, sometimes that may be coming in over video and not having an audio conference at all. It may be solving their challenges. You know, think about to me, customer experience always has to have to do with context, and experience without contact, without context, really is meaningless because while we're having at the communications level a very generic conversation between in some form of communication, that form of communication is going to look very different, whether it's a doctor to speaking go patient and a teacher speak speaking to a student, a High Network Advisor speaking to their client, and so you have to look within the realm of what is the context with which that dialog is taking place. The companies that are really addressing that challenge first and foremost are the ones that are going to succeed in tomorrow's in today's and tomorrow's economy. Great I heard in there a lot of idea, a lot of really good and interesting ideas. The one I want to double back on is this kind of self service piece. Just from your perspective, in your experience, can self service be truly personal or is it just personalize? Talk a little bit about that relationship there. You know, personalized being I'm tied up with options based on my past behavior or whatever, personal being, there's actually a human representative on the other side or a human touch of some kind. Talk a little bit about that relationship. Yeah, I got asked a lot...

...about this question. I've been on panels where they've asked, you know, when will the robots take over? And I think that I think that where we're at right now, we're at a point in time in terms of a technology evolution where AI machine learning are really helping the self service experience, where you can now have a bot of some sort interject between customer and business and for on certain levels there's a certain level of intellect with which that bought can serve self service needs. I want to track a package, I want to cancel an appointment or set up an appointment. These are all things that could very easily be self served. The way I kind of look at it is. You have, you're very easy transactional behavior and then you have kind of like those moments of truth, a customer buying, a couple buying a first home, someone settling in a state for for for a deceased loved one, more complex interactions which will then require a facetoface interaction where I think that you start to talk about self service. I think that AI and machine learning can help direct the call so that you're not dealing with going from agent one, agent one, going Oh, you wanted an international flight, let me put you over to sally over an international having to you know, I think you solve for a lot of the friction within the within the communication, and I think friction is the thing that is killing a lot of companies today in terms of their customer experience. If you can remove that layer of friction through having better intelligence, more machine learn learning to get from the appropriated the great customer to the appropriate agent, you win. That's great. I like that the human examples you shared their where there is some level of empathy and comfort that a human can provide during it a difficult or complex or potentially intimidating experiences. Great. So I've had a ton of sales professionals, marketing people, customer success folks, some executives. I think you're the first product marketer, especially it at an executive level, to be on the show. So let's talk just for a few minutes about product. Like what is the role of product in the customer experience? To to someone that maybe isn't working in a software company or company that has a title like product marketing, what is product and what is its role in the customer experience? Sure, well, I have the I have the worst named title kind of coming into this podcast because, and this is actually something that I joked with my company CEO when I was interviewing when you look at the technology today, when and most of this most of this technology is now sitting in the cloud, product is kind of is antiquated terminology. We don't have boxes anymore that we're going to go to ploy on Prem we have platforms, we have solutions, and so the way that I looked at how product starts to impact is one how easily can I get it deployed within my network? But to and they clad, the cloud brings with it a lot of benefits. It's like Apis so apis take onto form.

So vantage bought a company called next Mo, which is our communications API platform which allows us to do embedded communications. So think of your Uber App, think of their BNB, where you can embed communications into another form, whether be your desktop or your or your mobile APP. But with that there's also more simple apis where now one platform can hook seamlessly into another platform. So as companies start to grow, they start to bring in sales force or Zoho or sugar crm or even g suite, and you can now start to take your technology or your products and Hook it into these other productivity platform so for every dollar that a company is going to go and spend on a communications platform like a vantage or one of our competitors, they're probably spending x, x x on these other productivity applications, which is all part of this whole digital transformation. Another another term that we like to throw around that everybody has a has a role in somehow. The product needs to work and interoperate in terms of impacting customer experience. What do I mean by that? You have a company that that's dropped F x what they're going to spend on their communications platform, on sales force. They have good rigorous training, they're implementing sales force appropriately, their sales team is entering all their information, but every time they have to make a phone call, there they're entering, they're entering and all this information and by hand manual from a productivity perspective on the employee side, incredibly inefficient. And then take that to the next level and inbound call comes in. Forget the sales guy calling out to someone and having me enter in that call called now coming in and I don't I have to go look up that person after they've come into my call. It's highly effective. So having your product be able to seamlessly interact with all these other productivity applications to drive a certain level of intelligent interactions with it. You know, within a business one improves the employee productivity, but to create a better customer experience where they're no longer having to having Awkward Weight Times or having to be handed off from one agent to the next, because that's all dealt with seamlessly through the through the interoperability of those two products and in that setup, of course, removing the friction that you describe before. So you're a product marketer, or at least by TI solutions market. I'll just call it that. Okay, it's okay. So really hard. So we'll go here to yeah, what are you know, one or two or three layers or levels down? What is a daytoday success metric around product marketing? What are team members of yours doing day to day and what a success look like in terms of marketing your solutions and your products? Yeah, so, I hope I'm not an oddball and saying this, but every product marker that I brought into my team there's been a couple of characteristics that I specifically look for. In part of this is dedicated on some of my history and roles that I played in the past,...

...where I need people who are technically savvy, who can handle the daytoday product marketing, work with product management, work with sales, work with sales enablement to make sure that as products are brought to market, they're responsible for the go to market activities. They're working with the demand Gen teams to create robust marketing to drive leads, you know, top of funnel, metal funnel, bottom fall. Okay, that's great, but the one characteristic that I've that I've begune looking for, and you know I've been very deliberate about is finding people who have had some level of vertical market expert expertise. So my background, I start off my career in finance and when I first started into marketing, you brought a polycom earlier. It was to lead a solutions marketing function which was, you know, help us not sell boxes anymore, because boxes was we're killing the video conferencing market. We would go and sell a company six boxes so that Joe CEO didn't have to travel from New York to London to Hong Kong. We'd go back six months later and say, let's sell you six more boxes and they'd said, nope, we're good. What it didn't work? Nope, work flawlessly, picture qualities, fantastic. The boxes are being used five percent of the time when I don't have to travel. It became an issue of that solution cell. We we didn't really understand what their needs were, whether that be interviewing and recruitment, distance learning. If it was a doctor, how do doctors look at things like tell the medicine not only within the walls of their network or the university? But we had one of our one of our primary customers was delivering telehealth services to oil ricks in the Gulf of Mexico. PERSON GETS injured. They cost the cost that company Fortyzero to metavack them. Off of that, off of that platform. Yea. The ability now to see facetoface to a doctor, you're now solving for bigger challenges, which drives adoption in utilization, and adoption in utilization is a thing that will kill anybody in the cloud. Today, I can go and buy all of your solutions today. If I don't use them, you're very easily replaced because you're in the cloud. I'm not making a massive capacs investment in your product, which kind of ties me into a, you know, five year amortization before I can rip you out. So to me it's, you know, bringing people who have some form of vertical expertise as well and as this company and as we are transforming our business, my team can evolve with the business. To say that we're going back to experience without context is meaningless. We're going to bring a product to market, but we're going to tell you how does that work? For a doctor trying to help a patient throughout the patient pathway, not just from the time the patient gets into the doctor's office. But in terms of postcare treatment, whether that be my company's ability to send SMS to to a patient whose prescription is I needs to be refilled well after they've ever left the doctor's office because as a doctor, I want to make sure that I'm that you're no longer being readmitted into the hospitals, I'm going to start getting penal lot by insurance companies. These are the things that we need to start to think through. And all of those workflows are different, albeit from, once again, that generic communications level,...

...they look the same. So I always look for that added level of expertise so that way, as we get smartyr and we work more with sales. Yeah, they need to know the product, but knowing that when they go to speak to a credit union that they can't use the word customer because credit unions have members really important things that let them know that we're a trusted advisor, we understand their business and we're going to be able to sell a more robust portfolio to them. I May, I guess so many places I could go with this, as that's such a great passage. I want to get into these multiple product portfolios. You know, you you already mentioned next Mo and how you how you and your team manage that. But I want to stay right here where you just were, which is they're subtleties, nuances, product based Solution Base that the sales folks need to know about so that they can really speak in a meaningful way to prospects and customers. What does that look like for you all? How are you how are you communicating this? Are you doing? How are you getting this information to salespeople? Sure, so I'm going to do it a little bit. I'm actually going to answer a first for your question, which was the multiple product line. So one of the challenges that we've had here advantages. Where a company WHO's grown through acquisition, a lot of acquisition. We bought next mo in the past year. We bought talk box, which was a video API platform which we've now tied into to fill out our API capability. Is We bought new voice media, a contact center company. So we now have these three legs of this school, you know, UNI by communications contact center and in Your Communications Api Platform. I'm going to bring this back to real is it to an answer and in one second. But you what you've now done from a sales perspective is you've taken three different sales sources, three different types of buyers who would normally come to us. You're going to have your your ubers and lits or your digital natives who want to build their next generation capability. KNOW THEIR MOBILE APP. They don't really have a need to transform their contact center or their UC platform. Today you have your company who's looking at upgrading from their on Frim PDX into a cloud based unified communications platform, and then you have your contact center company. You've got business all different personas. They all have different needs. It's a very challenging environment for sales to one get their arms around everything. Oh and you have to know the vertical markets as well. Well. Well, I'm not trying to do is verticalize our business. And what do I mean by that? Where we're going and creating very specific vertical solutions. That gets to be you get into a lot of rat holes when you get into certain vertical markets where you have to deal with regulatory and compliance issues. You have to go and get certified for different things, and there are things that we are attackling. We just announce high trust certification in the healthcare space. There are certain table stakes that you have to have, but verticalization perspective. We're not trying to do that today, but what we're trying to do is to show customer is that it's a lost opportunity, especially as a marketer, for me to just go and create a demandsion campaign against our...

UC capabilities or our contact center capabilities or AFI capabilities, because I'm going to hit this this universe of customers and two thirds of them may not be interested in what I just sold them because or what I was trying to sell them, because while I'm selling them the UC campaign, they may be interested in contact center, they may be interested in Apis. That's where I think verticals come come into play, because I can now tell this entire story of patient pathway. I can talk about from the moment that they come into the healthcare network all the way through to the time that they're discharged. Same thing with with finance, with retail. The stories are much bigger and more relatable when you start to talk about the customer experience and if I can go into a customer and say yes, we can sell you this today, but have you thought about the point is not to go and get the entire to swallow the whale today, because you're never going to get a company as a dedicated budget today to go buy everything that you're trying to sell them. But one, you're giving them a pathway to something that is going to be more advanced to you're telling them that they're very few companies too in the space who can tackle all three of these things. And then three, your future proofing their business and you may open up an opportunity for them to say, I didn't know about you in the contact center space, or Oh, I didn't even think about Apis that you know? You know, of course I use Uber, but I what? How does that impact me? We're storytellers at the end of the day as marketers and wherever there's an opportunity unity, we need to be storytelling, and so we need to be robust about what we're talking about. We need to be specific about the target audience with which our campaign may be focused on, but we need to open eyeballs up to a greater universe and we need to use real life case studies. We need to use a better narrative around a vertical market application, and I think that's really the challenge that we have, because we are threading a needle sometimes where you're trying to do a lot around a lot of different products and telling a very concise story. But when you can, when you can tell these great stories around these moments of truth that I talked about, they're bringing emotion into a play and emotion is a very good motivator for people that're going by. Yeah, the other thing there too, that's kind of baked in is you know I'm going to bring you in on this, but we have all these other solutions in ones where, a trusted partner, we can go ahead and proceed as appropriate over the coming months and years, where we can help feature proof your business. So one second. Sorry. I mean it's difficult because you know, historically vantage is known as a residential voice company and so a lot of times we're not even brought to the table for all three of these things. And so we're overcoming the hurdle of being a be to be business company where the overwhelming majority of our revenue is coming from, but nobody knows it. And so you have to open up some of these doors because one people think of you as a residential way company and if they think of you as a be to be company, they think of you as a micro be to be company, as you know, residential plus almost, and so you have to open up these stories that people think of you in in that van head's great.

So let's go back then, to where we where we went down the the multiple product pathway. And again, how do you communicate this? And I asked this because it's a challenge for us, you know, from a software development, a product development, management, marketing even see us in the feedback loop into sales, like communication at a really high level. The communication between teams is so critical, so that you know, a sales rep who might be the second or third touch of anything that's being communicated outward to the prospect and customer base. You know, they obviously need to be informed and to manage expectations and to see all these opportunities, for example, that you offered with the three legs of the stool. What are some basic tactically, what are some mechanisms, are tools that you all are using successfully to make sure that your salespeople are aware of these opportunities in the state of affairs and where things are going and what they can say and can't say, should say, shouldn't say, etc. Well, so I'll take this from an organizational perspective, and I'll take this from more tool training tactics. So because of the different buyer personas and because of the very different customer journeys and which from which they would come to a company like vontage, we've separated our business. It's what we call our API group and our applications group. So the API group are's more that develop or led journey of digital natives who want to go and play with Apis and build their next generation communications schools, and then we built o our applications group. And our applications group is the contact center and unified communications portfolios. The reason we broke it out that way is we're seeing a massive acceleration now in terms of how people are buying both contact center and unified communications. It used to be back in the day when it would be rare that you would see a company go and buy joint its seats. The cloud is driving some of this now, through our acquisition, having all the all of the technology under one roof, we're seeing now, you know, one in two deals now looking at joint seat opportunities between you see and contact center. So Cross training the sales teams for you see and C see clearly in a space where we have to be at the forefront of that because though, in the terms of that then diagram, a while ago they were just kind of touching, we're now seeing like this. So that cross cell training has to take place. But it's not a huge leap for a sales guy to have that, you that have a unified communications and contact center discussion, because a lot of times are almost inseparable and if they're only having a UC conversation, they're starting a conversation will how do you integrate within my existing contact center? So they're having a lot of those discussions anyway. Tactically now, what we've done is from the sales enablement perspective, you know, we've implemented CEC guest training, which is, you know, it's a solution selling methodology with which all of our sales guys are getting trained. is to ask the questions,...'s to go in without your pitch deck but to have, you know, those very specific conversations to their business, to have a really good understanding of what their challenges are before they go in and, you know, under sell themselves from a you know, it's on the marketing team. Then to make sure that we have competitive intelligence pretty well cinched up, because we're going to be running into a much larger multitude of competitors where if you're dealing with two different industries instead of one, how do we get our guys comfortable with our UC competitors as well as our contexts on our competitors? Oh and, by the way, there's a whole slue of net new competitors that are coming down the coming down the pipe and, you know, every day. So it's making sure that those tools are available. It's making sure that as we bring new campaigns to market, that we're training the sales teams to let them know that we're training our bedrs for inbound leads, if we're doing outbound dialing, that it's my team that's sitting down with those teams and giving them the verbiage and the scripting that they need to have those upfront conversations. It's it's a lot of work but you know, as I said, when when you boil it down into those two groups, as opposed to trying to do it all under one one umbrella, it makes it a little more manageable for people to understand. And Yeah, every group is trained up to have have those questions asked. But you know, if all of us and there's a big API lead that comes in through a UC deal, we make sure that we're bringing in the right people. One of those bees sees or other sales teams from the other side of the house, whether we're barless of which side it comes from, to make sure that we're covered. That's great as really helpful. You know, it's so fun talking with someone like you who's got a great deal of experience in a much larger organization, because you know you've already walked through a lot of the things that we're trying to figure out. It's one of the reasons I'm so excited to do the show and to have guests like you on. It's really helpful and interesting. So thank you for that. Pass as really great. You actually touched on something I wanted to ask about, which is competitive intelligence and market intelligence. Is something of a great deal of experience in. You know, what's its primary role is it and how is it structured in the organization? Is this just something that happens as part of the processor? You have people dedicated on these tasks and then and then you find ways to roll it into other communication throughout the organization. What what is competitive or market intelligence that look like as a function inside and organization like yours? In every company that I've been at, this is probably been one of the more difficult challenges we've had to go in solved, because no matter how much competitive intelligence you do, your sales teams will never be happy with how much competitive intelligence you've done. You're going to give me competitive intelligence on our a prime competitors. They want twelve, you do twelve, they want twenty. So, due to limitations, I don't have I don't have another brending budget, I don't have teams of people within the Product Marketing Organization. We have finite resources to go and do everything that we're saying. And... we've done a couple things. One is we've agreed upon, with sales leadership, the core competitors that we are going to go and build up battle cards and and scripting against, and we said that we would keep it at, you know, depending on the competitor, a certain caidence of updates. That is something manageable that I can give me up a in and amongst my team myself included, I own competitive intelligence. I own certain competitors that I keep an eye on as well, because it's all hands on deck when you have a market that's moving as fast as ours is. We've also gone and deployed a competitive intelligence platform, so it's something for us to go and manage in terms of doing a lot of the heavy lifting and putting in information, but there are things that we can automatically set so I can put page links into the platform and anytime there's a change on a compete on a competitors pricing page, I'll get an alert and it may be a maybe that they just change some of the words, but it may be that they had a whole wholesale change of their how they priced out their platform, things that give us better intelligence. That way we can be a bit more or drive a bit faster speed to market than we would otherwise, because quarterly, every six months. You think the quarterly would be enough, but it's not in this market, and so anytime that you miss something you're always going to get all on it. So bringing some level of automation into CEI has been a big help for us and also having an ear to the market for those next competitors. As I said, this market is moving very aggressively. There are large companies. Everyone wants to share the desktop, and so whether it's the CRM company that's looking to move into the contact center or it's you know, everyone's always looking to have phone as well as well as the productivity APPs. It's going to shows walking the floor, meeting with analysts, talking with people that you may never have a conversation with in your life again because they work at a competitor, but you hide your badge nice enough that they're willing to talk. It's anything that you can get just to make sure that things don't slip. And no matter how much you do, you always miss things. But as long as you know there's an agreement and a set up on course for how you're going to do with CI, you'll you'll least win more battles and you'll lose with your self teams. It's great. I'm going to go back a little bit to video, but maybe to the softer side of it. You know, you you gave that great example of any I think you were at video at the time, right of the poor convertectures, and then a video for for to yeah, and so that the I'm thinking is specifically the story you just shared of a METAAC being forty grand to get the person off the oil rig versus tell a health you know, video conferencing. So there's the obvious practical side of it, but can you speak to like the human side of it, like what is the why is video going forward such a valuable part of customer contact and Customer Communication? Not just from an efficiency standpoint,... I can put my face in front of anyone anywhere, anytime, as long as we both have an Internet connection and a device, which every device is a video device at this point. But talk a little bit to the to the human side of that as well. Yes, I think their video does a lot in terms of the emotional using emotional loosely, but the emotional side of a customer experience interaction. You know, we brought up the telemedicine, we brought up, you know, the doctor patient. But take contacts on our agent WHO's having to deal with volumes of calls. That person could be sitting within a financial institution and I could be okay, I'll give an example from from actually from when I was at video. You know, one of the challenge is that that a credit union that I used to work with had was a small credit union. I think it was like forty is shfts. They had period spike periods of traffic in their branches and what would happen a lot of times is you would go into the branch, you would go and speak to the person behind the desk who maybe a your two out of college, you know, the guy goes your withdrawals out of your account. You'd ask some question about a mortgage or whatever and they would hand you off to a one eight hundred number because they didn't all the answers, they weren't a specialist in whatever you were asking. The very cold experience you get rather through a dialer. And what this credit union said was, you know, every opportunity that that person leaves our branch to go and call a one eight hundred number as a lost opportunity because they're probably equally is likely going to go call chase or back of America or whoever down the street. So they started putting in video kiosks within the branch. You have now the facetoface interaction and there's proven studies about the effectiveness of having a facetoface interaction in terms of close rates from you know how much it drops from a from in person to video to to voice, being the least common denominator. So you're getting the emotional feedback. So, whether or not really upset with you because it's something you just said, whether I'm happy, I can gage that interaction a little bit more. So you're getting the physical nuance of the conversation that, yeah, we can somewhat derive out of out of an audio call, but I can physically see it over video. And these are more on the basic interaction side. You know, when you're now dealing with the ability to take video and expand it into the fields of like field services, where my Internet's down, you're going to try and deploy a truck to me a week from now. Well, if you take your phone and the camera on the back of it, let's go look at the back of your router. Oh that wires out of place. You fix to. You're solving four issues that are causing me emotional distress. And when you have an amount of kids that I have in my house, they arenet being down is an emotional distress. So it's you know, how are you solving for my issues? And that facetoface interaction or sometimes the ability to show what I'm what, but I can't verbalize to you because I'm not technical and I don't know what wires are coming in and out of my route. And yet you know, sending a guy a week from now isn't going to solve my problem. These are the emotional connections that we...

...see a lot with video and I still think that the more extreme, extreme use cases, but beyond facetoface interaction, are still in their infancy. You know, you look at Tele Medicine. Tele Medicine is really starting to take form now and I think is being driven now from outside factors outside of the medical community, primarily insurance. Insurance is now going to reimburse for tell him that tell a medicine engagements. They're now going to penalize doctors for readmittance back in the hospitals of patients. So if I'm a doctor and I can get on facetoface with you to check in on your diabetes protocol, you know, several months after you've left it left the hospital, and I can check in on how your diet is. These are things that are now going to solve for challenge as well, above and beyond just being a phone replacement because, honestly, if we weren't over video right now, we would pick up the phone and we would do this over our we would do this over audio. The experience wouldn't be as good, but we would solve for the majority of what most podcasts look like today. So it's solving for the needs above and beyond replacement of a phone. That's where video is stilling the void and I think that the faster we get their customer experience will start to really shift leaps and balance. It's fantastic because you went straight to where I spend almost all my time, thinking and working and teaching around video, which is largely unscripted, unproduced, unrehearsed. Is True person to person communication, with a little bit of show Intel mixed in as well as necessary. So good, Hey. Relationships are our number one core value at bombomb and here on the podcast. So I always like to give you and thank you again so much for your time and your insights. It's been awesome. I like to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life, for your career, and to to give a mention to a company that's doing customer experience really really well. So I had to find that if had a little bit of fun to think about this. I think the one person in my career that I would think actually goes way back to my first job in marketing when I was out of a woman by the name of Sophia Williams. She was the for the vice president of marketing that I reported up into. She's the first person who beat it into my head this concept of big n marketing and that marketing is not just a lead Gen team. They're out the ones who just build battle cards and data sheets, but marketing has a state of the sales table. Marketing has a seat of the finance table. Marketing has a seat at all tables and while they may not be the lead, the lead voice at those tables, you know, to always have that optic of marketing is is as close to the customer of sale, sometimes sometimes more so. They're definitively closer to the street than product is and and finance, and so it's always been a help helping my career in in orienting myself to that North Star of you know, are you thinking big and broad enough about how marketing plays in this world in terms of companies that are doing customer experience. Well, I'm spoiled because I get to watch net new companies come... to market with very cool applications every day through our next UPAS I look at companies like Buber and Dominos and I kind of see, yes, there's a lot of failed ways to go in order a pizza, but you know, every other day it feels like you're watching the other domino's commercial and it's like I would never order repeat it that way, but I but I'm inspired by by the aggressiveness with which they want to sell me pizza. Yeah, you know, I it's something that you know, in con terms of companies that are pushing the limits, in terms of companies that are, I think, really kind of pushing how far customer experience can go, those are the ones that I always look to. And you know, who would have fought a mirror three years ago that you'd look to a pizza company as where you're going to draw your technology and inspiration from? It's when you look at two really simple things that we used to do without thinking about it, hailing a cab and ordering a pizza, and how far that's really changed. I really I'm inspired by those types of companies every day, so outstanding. This has been an absolute pleasure. I love everything you brought. I know folks are going to find it valuable. If someone wants to follow up with you or with vantage, what are some ways they can connect with you or the company? Brian, sure me personally, you can follow me on Linkedin. You can follow me on twitter. I believe my handle is be Gilman, thirteen one L. people always miss that. If they wanted to get in touch with vantage, they can reach US aid bontagecom and if they wanted to learn more about our API is like also go to next mocom. They can reach that at your Vantagecom as well, but a lot of developers like going straight to the next my website. I love it. What I learned about next Mo is was one of many, many really interesting things here. If you enjoyed this conversation and you want more like it, you can always subscribe to the customer experience podcast. You can find it at Bombombcom, slash itunes, bombombcom, spotify, bombombcom, slash podcast, where everywhere that you would want to listen to a podcast. Brian Gilman with vonage. Thank you so much for your time today. Hope you have a great afternoon. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're entrusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. Rehumanize the experience by getting facetoface through simple, personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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