The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 127 · 10 months ago

127. 3 CX Strategies for CROs w/ Darryl Praill


As a CRO, how do you change the culture of your org so that customer experience is everyone’s responsibility?

In this episode, I interview Darryl Praill, CRO at Vanilla Soft, about how he distributes the ownership of customer experience across the whole org by dissolving barriers between teams.

Darryl talked with me about:

- What a matrix organization is

- How colleagues are influenced by how they are compensated

- 3 ways to create a culture of empathy

- How marketing leaders can develop their personal brand

- The role of video in customer experience

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Neewer Photo and Video

- Darryl on Twitter

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Our ultimate goal here is have anamazing customer experience such that they want to do business with us, because ifthe front part of the customer experience, that the marketing and then the subsequentselling part, is a dynamic experience, they're going to be so pleasant andso delighted that when price comes out, is should be a reasonable conversation.The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success expertscreate internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal andhuman way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, EthanButte, director of marketing and director of Product Marketing, vice president of sales, vice president of marketing and senior vice president of sales and marketing. ChiefMarketing Officer, Chief Revenue Officer. These are among some of the titles thattoday's guest is held over the years, almost all of them in the softwareindustry. He currently serves as cro at Vanillasoft, a sales engagement platform.He's also a podcast host in a very consistent video user. In fact,we talked about video on episode one hundred and eleven of his show, inside, inside sales. I've been looking forward to this one since he scheduled itwith me. Daryl Prayale, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Oh you'retalking about me. I thought you were talking about some person did not knowwhat the hell they wanted to do with their life. Sales Marketing, salesmarketing. Oh my goodness. Thank you, sir, so goad to be yeah, it was fun. I obviously, you know, spend time on linkedinprofiles and stuff pared preparing for these, and it was just like the rangeof titles. But they're a there's a story there and I and we'llget into some of that. I'm really curious about cro in particular. Ithis will be the first specific cro conversation we've had on the show. Butbefore we get going, you and I have some we have many things incommon, but among them, one you probably wouldn't guess right away is thatI am on the board of directors for Karen Share, which is a foodbank here in southern Colorado serves dirty seven counties from one state line all theway over to the other, and you are on the board of directors ofcaring and sharing exchange tell you a little bit about who they are, whatthey do and what your involvements like. So the so I'm the resident marketingexpert there. They needed, you know, marketing expert help them how to,you know, Rais or visibility and their awareness to drive more contributionist donations, support that kind of stuff. So that's the role I play and thecarrying sharing exchange is actually an organization here in the National Capital Region, whichis what we say in Canada, for you know, Ottawa at across theRiver Gat no in Quebec. So and what we do? It's very straightforward. We variety of things, but the biggest thing were known for is makingsure that everybody at Christmas, no matter what, you know, what theyyear, Jewish or Christian or whatever, you've got a gift. You've gotsome kind of that you know, your love. Now we also do toydrives and clothing drives and we do a whole bunch of other things throughout theyear, but that's how it all began. That's over a hundred years of makingsure that everybody had a gift open a Christmas. What a nice originstory and a long history. So cool that you're enjoying your work there.I just saw the name and I was like, Hey, that sounds likewhat I do, that sounds like what I do. Yeah, yeah,cool. Let's start where we always start, darrel, which is customer experience.When I say that, what does it mean to you? Oh mygoodness, cusin, I'm okay. So my mind immediately, when you sayit, my mind goes in a thousand different directions. One is okay,and if it's the neurons firing, one is that's the feeling that I haveinside as a consumer when I'm dealing with a particular brand. So, forexample, if you were to mention my Internet provider, I would get anxiousand I would just get resentment and bitterness and hatred. Right. That's oneexample the customer experience, but then the neurons kept on firing. Is like, you know, I thought of contention and conflict, in confusion, becauseit's like people who owns customer experience and nobody really truly in most companies isdesignated with owning customer experience, or they do. It's just platitudes. AndI deal with that and the marketing side of my role all the time because, for example of somebody gives us a bad review on a GTWO or acaptain. Are Our trust radius, and you drill down realize it's because theyhad a probably because they had a really bad support experience. Well, isthat my fault or is that supports fault, and who is tasked with fixing that? So all those happen simultaneously. But first and viscerally, was themotion that I feel inside. Yeah, with you on the feeling part.It's a very consistent theme and it's so important, of course, because thosefeelings beget thoughts and beget actions. So it sounds like you don't have aformal role internally. I was going to ask that as a follow up.Does your gut like when you think about it, and obviously it's up forgrabs right now, but as you think...

...about it, is it something thatyou would hope or expect to have someone assigned to an individual or a team, or do you feel like share responsibility as the way forward, like youknow, what are you thinking about that? So a couple things. So internally, a vanillis off. I own it. So that's an it's astated rolls part of my job description. I own customer experience. Somebody doeshave to own it. But you know, there's always the story behind the story, which there was a time when nobody owned it right and it wasme sticking my nose in and saying, we'll wait a minute. You know, if we have a poor customer experience that affects churn, because we affectchurn, the CEO, the CFO is going to come back to me andsay, Darrow, you own Sayos, you need to make up the moneywe just lost, and I'm like, wait a minute, you're giving memore burden for something that happened outside of my department. That makes no sense. So yes, eye on it, which is then means I have,in a matrix organization, the ability to inject myself across the organization to makesure that we're doing all the things we can for churn. I'm sorry forCustomer Satisfaction and we measured that using things like NPS and other aspects. Allright, in most companies somebody needs own and it all depends on the companysize. For your small to medium sized companies, that could be a CEOlike me, that could be a chief marketing officer or a chief customer officer. I've seen a lot of people saying so of the CMO, you're theCCO, and I'm cool with both those approaches, but somebody does need toown it as part of their job description. But but then when you get bigger, you need a dedicated resource and this is all they do is continuallyoptimize that experience across the board. Awesome. I don't want to go too deepinto it, but for folks that caught the the term Matrix Organization,can you give me one layer on that? Yeah, a major's organization means that, you know, the head of support does not support, report tome, the report to the CEO, I report to the CEO, sowe have a shared boss. However, there's a major because there's a dotaline horizontally instead of up and down vertically, between me and the head of support. That says I have the ability to inject myself because I own atask under your purview, such as the customer experience, because it directly affectsme. So when I come to you and see, even though we're colleaguesrepeers, when I come to you and say I need you to do this, when I'm speaking as your boss, that's a matrix organization. Awesome.That was very concise. Thank you. For folk who aren't familiar, teus a little bit about Vanilla soft. Who's your ideal customer? What problemsdo you solve for them? So vanillas oft of sales engaged in solution.So we would sell to sales and marketing leaders who want to turn those Mqwels and s qls and ultimately deals. The whole premise around sales engagement isthat marketings making all these leads but then sales doesn't follow up with them fastenough, frequently enough or the right cadence or playbook of emails and phone callsand SMS and social touches. So our platform make sure the sales wraps doexactly that. That's what we do. If you know of other companies likea sales softer and outreach where, in the exact same space you do thesame thing, the difference those your question is where do we play? Unlikethose vendors, we play in SMB, small to medium sized business, andunlike those vendors we don't really play in high tech. We have lots ofhigh set clients. That's where they play. We play and what we like tosay are real world industries, industries that NSURANCE, finance givings, fundraisingin a higher read, manufacturing, real world, every day meat potato industriesthat may not have the most sophisticated text act, may I have the mostrobust it department, may not have the most savvy and men people may havesome employee churn more so than the average bear. That's where we play awesome. How do you advise people? You know, I think when I thinkabout sales engagement, part of my mind here's and I'm speaking as a cynichere, not just for myself but for the cynics among us, on behalfof the those people. You know, when I hear sales engagement, Ioften hear something like sales automation. Like give a couple of cautions, likehow do we make sure that that a tool like yours is being used ina way to benefit humans on both sides of a potential transaction, in away that doesn't dehumanize either party? Like give a couple piece of advice tothe synics to say this can be used well and appropriately and in a productiveway. So I'm the world's biggest synic as well. Brother, I'm therewith you. So I think look good is and the synic in me saysyou are right to be wary. And what I'd like to tell people isthat if you use wrong what it's going to do is way faster and waymore effectively than you ever could do on your own sales engagement. Were reallypiss off your target base and I'll never want to talk to you again.So I'll answer the question around what can you do to fix it? Butlet me explain that there's lots of Martech out there and sales tech that cando this right. So think about email. We did email for years. It'sgreat. Automated it. I'm I have a nice personal malks and anewsletter would have you. But then people...

...started spamming and they can get permissioncontrol and all of a sudden it was like, oh, then everybody wasdoing it because they were selling lists. So that everything else, you've gotto use it with some intelligence. In the case of sales engage, thinkof it in the simplest contexts. The whole point of the tool is toremind you that you need to touch your prospects on a find pattern, frequencyor set period of time. So seven touches, seven days, twelve touches, eighteen days, whatever it might be, and it's just reminding you to doit now. Yes, you can automate some of that, but usuallywhat I'll do is say here's the email I'm about to send. You wantto send that? That's where you would get in and take a wait aminute, I'm going to go and research this individual. I need to finda point of commonality and I need that be relational about this as opposed tojust sending hey, going to have ten minutes on your calendar tomorrow. Youand I both know that's not going to work. So that's the first point. Second Point is when you design your cadences, design them to not makethat ask up front. So the words give, give, give, GID, give, Hey, I see you're in this ear, in this industry. We have customers in this industry. They get a lot of value inthis report. Just sharing it with you, boom. No ask. Play thelong game. So it touch seven, or touch twelve, or touch fifteen, or touch eighteen or touch twenty four. You FANI, start makingthose asks. Add values, you reach at them on social media, engagein conversation again, you're making the posits that you're going to show you're goingto actually make a withdrawal on later, as Sam it kind of likes tosay, in those early parts of your of your cadence, you want toshow me, you know me. Is supposed to treat me like a transaction. So in the end it's all about relationships. If you're dating, mostpeople, if you're looking for, say, marriage, most people won't go tothe first person you see, whom you find attractive, and say,will you marry me? Can we consummate the relations right now? All thosekind of things tend to work against you. This is the same way. Solong answer, but there you go. It's good. A lot of reallygood stuff in there, and the long game is really the perspective that, I think, when it's missing, leads to the worst use. AndI really like the I mean what you did there was blend kind of theart in the science, the science being let's be methodical, let's be consistent, let's see if we can set this up in a way that will beuseful across our team of Reps. but then the art is okay, Ihave these activities, but who is it for? WHO's the person on theother side of it, and how can I engage them in a more personalway. There's two things need to understand. From a sales point of view.Sales reps tend to really suck at having any kind of regular, ongoing, scheduled outreach. All right, they's kind of make a call or twoand forget it. That's it. Second thing is is you don't know howthat prospect likes to communicate. Do they want to talk to you on thephone? Do they just want to use email? Do they prefer SMS,do they prefer social touches? So the idea of mixing up the touches,the channels that you use and reminding you non stop at its time to saidanother touch, to Ethan at bomb bomb is what actually brings both worlds together. That's really the point and the beauty of that is it makes you,the sales trip, way more productive and ultimately gives you a better customer experience. Here's the thing. What you're doing now, the sales engagement part,it sets the tone for the continuing, say a customer experience. Are Onto get through the whole journey. So if you annoy them now, thecustomer experience starts off negative twenty two and can only get worse because now they'reon guard, whereas if you're accommodating, your respectful, your personal you're givingbefore you ask to take, then the customer experience can grow. So whatyou don't understand is a good sales engagement platform will do wonders for your customerexperience if implement it appropriately. Yeah, and used it, actually use it. It follow the things that it's telling you to do. Yes, yeah, really good. Okay, so, Cro I want to make an observationand then kind of set you loose a to react to that observation and thenbe you've already kind of talked a little bit about how you're structured in theorganization, but I'd love to get really explicit about that too. My observationis that the CRO movement is a lot like the current customer experience movement inthat, you know, what I'm trying to do with this show is tocreate more understanding and consistency and holism across marketing, sales and customer success,because the experience needs to be consistent across all of those. They all playa different role, but each of us sees the customer a little bit differently, and so we understand the customer differently and we we're not talking about itacross the entire life cycle, then we're probably not being consistent and I thinkthe cro kind of brings under one roof a lot of that same per view, obviously around the idea of revenue new, but it's impossible, as you've alreadydone, you know, it's impossible to talk about revenue and retention andexpansion and growth without talking about the customer experience. And again it you,and you already said this, to like...

...if the sales experience or the marketingexperience is bad from the get go, I have a negative impression it's almostimpossible to recover from. So I think giving one person per view over theentire revenue life cycle is kin in a lot of ways to creating awareness ora roll or whatever across the customer experience. It's just one of them is morefeeling and feedback and the other one is actual behavior in terms of revenueproduction. So everything you said is spot on. I mean, if wesit back an exam and how organizations historically have worked, we work in silosand it's not malicious, it just is. What is the marketing team is amarketing thing. Success Team does a success thing, sales does sales,and then maybe once a week or every couple of times a month we gettogether and say hey, what are you doing? Hey, what are youdoing? Hey, what are you great go team, and then you goabout your Salos and what you end up getting there is a very disjointed experiencefor the customer and you have to sit back and think what is our ultimategoal here? Our ultimate goal here is to have an amazing customer experience suchthat they want to do business with us, because if the front part of thecustomer experience, that the marketing and then the subsequent selling part, isa dynamic experience, they're going to be so pleasant and so delighted that whenprice comes out it should be a reasonable conversation and then it goes on boarding. Of that's good. Life is good too. So I that all goeswell. What happens? But on what happens is they tell a friend andthey tell a friend and they tell a friend, and word of mouth isa wonderful thing. Internally, they tell a department, they tell a department, another business union, other business units. So you grow within the install baseof your current account and then you grow with another accounts. That's thewhole idea. Your churn goes down, life is grand, but that can'thappen unless everybody's on the same page and the medium months, a week orcouple times a month doesn't do that. So you need to bring it togetherunder the revenue size. We got to put a line in the sand,we said in our case, and for those who don't know, Cros tendto own success and mark. I'm sorry, guess, success and sales and marketinggenerally. Now in my case, for now I only have marketing andsales. Success may happen. That's a discussion that we want to get thatin order. The reason they do that is so they can actually have alignmentamong all the people who touch the customer experience. That's why they do it, because if they leave because they don't like the free trial experience, becausesupport was bad, or they leave because success didn't do a great job andthey churned, then sales us to make up those numbers and that's bad.So the challenge, though, the Cero is what, over the years,what they've tended to do is they just tend to take a VP of saleswho owns revenue and they've said, okay, instead of giving you more money,I'm going to change your title and I'm going to give you a cee. I get you are chief now. So, VP sales, you're achief, your chief revenue officer, because, hey, there's not very many ofthose and that it's just a misnomer and because all they just keep ondoing is focusing on sales and they ignore their departments because they don't understand theother departments. So, yeah, I own it all, but because Idon't understand it all, I'm not gonna give it any time other than tomake sure. Yeah, it's going okay, it's going okay. Yeah, youguys are good. Get great pum. I'm going to focus here in sales, the Truro, the Sero. Why it's kind of getting a newbit of a renaissance and why it's shifting is now you're truly seeing the roadchange as marketing and sales blur, or that, you know, marketing topof funnel, sales bottom, a funnel of that middle funnel. That's gray. Do the SD air some bd air support to sales? Do they reportto marketing? My astirs were talking about open rates, but it isn't thata marketing metric. I'm so confused. So there is a blending going onand it is a seem as handoff and you need a person who understands thewhole thing. And now you're seeing ceuros more and more frequently come from ourmarketing background because they understand the digital marketing and digital marketing has become massive.Selling is still really hasn't changed. I still the big up a phone,I can still send an email, I can still send a linkedin touch,but digital marketing is like changing all the time. What's late? It's algorithms. Are You doing influencer marketing? Are you on social media? Do youhave a personal brand above and beyond a company brand? Are you using video? How are you using video? Are you at an event? Are youat a virtual event? Are you doing both? How are you spending yourmoney? Based on Jen x versus Gen Y, versus Gen z? Thelist goes on. All that's marketing, setting the tone, setting the message. It's so see, your row is meant to keep everybody in the samepage, because now we're just one team. We are the revenue team, andall that pickering and bitching goes away and now we are literally doing ahandoff like you would a football team on a field, from the quarterback tothe receiver with a block. We all have a rolls and the whole pointsto get a touch down with the whole role. The whole point is toget a customer that is a happy customer, that they answer your question. Yeah, so now within and beyond within this Revenue Organization or revenue function,you still kind of have these siles. What are you doing practically as aleader to create more understanding across the team's like more respect, more understanding,because it's one thing to give someone the...

...title, it's something else to breakdown, because vanillasoft didn't start yesterday. You know, there's some history before. Well, what I'm thinking about here is a listener who's maybe a marketingleader or a sales leader who potentially sees this need to create the structure andtheir own organization. How have you, as a leader, kind of brokendown what exists of the silos, even if, even if they don't existon paper anymore, because they all fall together under here. You know,there's still some history there and we have different titles and things like. Howdo you lead to that? How do you manage to that. So it'snot easy and every situation is going to be different. And yes, weweren't. I wasn't always a zero, we didn't always have that role.We've been around for a while. How do you change established mindsets, existingcultures? So the best advice I can give you as a couple things,is what I've done, and I might full admission I'm still figuring this out. I've been in the job cotting on to a year now. They say, you know, walk a mile on my shoes and you'll have a wholenew appreciation for, you know, the journey that I'm on. And sowe've done that. So we've made marketing, do sales calls. We've been marketing, called customers, we've been marketing, handle support calls, we've made salesdo marketing campaigns to a be testing, you know, doing different demographics.And when you do in, doing copywriting, writing blogs, making inthe sales reps, generally they don't want to go write a blog, theydon't want to go write an ebook or white paper. You know, theyjust what I do the deal, then do the deal. So and themarketers are scared all the hell of get every rejection. So this cross pollinationgoes a long ways. I do it under the guise of cross training.If Joe gets hit by a bus, Susie, I need you to stepinto joe shoes for a little while. So you need to learn their roleand vice versa. Fine, but when you do that then there's a respectlike yeah, my open rights thirty two percent. His open rates forty onepercent. Damn it, what is he doing? All right, so allof a sudden there's this tell me more and there and you're swapping stories andbest practices here. Let me coach you. That opening monolog on that cold call. Your close, but you didn't handle this right. So that's abig part of the second part is is I as a zero. I don'thave a team of my marketing team. I don't have me I meeting themmy marketing me I don't have a medium sales meeting. I have a revenueteam meeting where all my reports come together and we go through all this goingon and we all drew down and challenge each other and as questions, andthen we do we really focus on just where are you in trouble? Andthen we brainstorm together. And that brainstorming together sounds stupid, but that's abonding time, that's experienced time. My job is to make sure that ifEthan's would being quieter in this session, I have to go hey, Ethan, what do you think? You Know Sally should do. So that's partof my job. Honestly, I find half my job is to be therapist. So the third part, and this whole element is to build the rightteam. If I've got people who are resistant to change, then there's twothings I can do. I can either talker rate them and there will beconflict organizationaline and I have to endure it. or I need to give them achance to improve themselves or I need to replace them. And like anyorganization, like any football going back to that sports analogy, that any footballteam, sometimes you got to trade players away. They're good players, they'regreat players, they just not the right players for your team. So thoseare the three things that we've really focused on to try to change the culturecross train, create some compassion, to some empathy, and it's made adifference. It's made a huge difference, I believe absolutely. At what Ireally like this idea of creating a sense of shared ownership by brainstorming together Ithink it also helps two different individuals and the different teams understand each other betterby working collaboratively in a very direct way to a lot of really good stuffin there. What do you advise? Like, like you've already, Ifeel like, coached a sales leader on how to potentially bridge this gap inin her or his career by saying, Hey, you should probably start understandingdigital marketing. Also baked in there was a idea of potentially being a littlebit more intentional or serious about your personal brand. What would you say toa marketing leader? How might they build the bridge into sales and even intosuccess for that greater understanding it perhaps in aspiration of being a crow? Sothis is you know, you hear lots of topics around sales and marketing alignments, as much of what I wanted to tell you falls same conversation. Butit's true. You need to understand how your colleagues, your success colleagues,your sales colleagues leadership, are compensated their mindset and the decisions that they make, which may make no sense to your like man. They're like, youknow, it's Mars and Venus and it's not Mars and Venus. They're beinginfluenced by how they're compensated. Once you understand how their compensated, all ofSud the decisions that are making make a lot of sense in light of that. And they're not compensated at the same way you are. So you needunderstand that. Second that you understands, you need to understand numbers better thanthey do. So you better know the sales numbers. You know conversations,activities, conversion rates, customer quisition cause lifetime values. You better know allthose numbers. You know better than your...

...sales kind of parts. Same thingon a success side. But the MPs score. What's going on with achurn rate? How's that tracking? So you can have an intelligent conversation withthem and then you can approach them. This is really how you start toreally built across, you know, Bill Bridges, is to see how canI help you with your MPs scores and make it better? All right,what can we do here? Because some ideas. So yeah, no,their conversation. Know how the Keypis and the data. Third thing, thisis because sounds silly, it's one more after this, which is you doyou do their job, like I just said, all right, you asyou hang on calls, you you insert yourself in the calls and you speakup. You Cherry pick only where you can add value. But you don'tjust sit there quietly. You add value because when the customer reacts and says, Dang, Darrell, that was a really good point. Thank you.And and the rest of the rooms full of sales reps and they're going,holy smokes, he just sunk a three pointer at the buzzard with that littlecomment. We like there'll maybe he's on our side. That goes along ways. The last thing is it's a contract. You need to have a service levelof agreement, some of the words. You need to have an agreement witheach your counterparts that says we commit respectively. I will do this,you will do that. If you don't do that, this is the consequence. So, in other words, this is how you get rid of anykind of power struggles internally, because some organizations will the fault to say,often the sales or to R and D if there an engineering centric so youthees La allows you to nip that in the butt, often by actually havinga rules of engagement and expectations. But it means you've got to hold upyour end all right, and you got to have the courage to respectfully callout your colleagues and saying you drop the ball here. Also, when youdo the s La you need to have finally, view that done by theCEO. The CEO, they're bought in and they're to act as arbiter andreferee so that the end of the day, if you need to hold your counterpartaccountable for something that they drop the ball on, they can't just playyou off because they have more political influence. You can go back to the CEOand say you agreed to this and he will hold or she will holdthe head of sales accountable. Once that had a sales with a head ofsuccess understands that the power is equal, they change their approach entirely want towork with you instead of against you. So for tactics, I think Ijust gave you. Yeah, that was really good. And for folks whoare listening, of course, I don't know where you're listening to this.I use apple podcast and I use the sixty two back button when I'm listeningto a show and a guest did something that Darrell just did. So considerprobably that'll be probably be a to click sixty two, sixty second, backbackfor really, really good tips there. I'm going to kind of build amedium size segue here. You first came on my radar. It was onLinkedin and I think it was the video where you were announcing that you weretaking on the crow roll. Yes, before we move on into video,see what I did there. That was good. Thanks, I just madethat up. That was really good. Anyway, what over the past yearin this role has been surprising to you? Good? Bad, otherwise, likewhat is unlike what you were expecting. Okay, so two things come tomind. So clearly I own marketing before, so there was no changethere. I knew that game inside it up for so for me, Igained the saleside. So everything I've learned that was unexpected was going to bethere. And two things going to mind. The first thing I found, andand I don't want to generalize, and I know I totally am isthat sales wraps as a whole. And I've talked to you a thousand peopleabout this since then and they've all said that sales sales reps as a whole. They don't believe you. So if I went to a marketer and Isaid I need you to do x, Y and Z. They're gonna go. Okay, are you? I may go for the say and, becauseif you do this, then this is the outcome. That's your contribution Ineeded by this day. Any problems, you let me know. We're good. We're good. Fine. Go sales wraps as a segment of the populationwhere you would do the exact same thing. I need to do this many callsand need to reach to this person, but I need you to we're tochange the compensation and reflect what I've heard. Blah, blah, butwe want to move the team around a little bit, re org a littlebit, whatever it might be. Whatever. Once you're gone, they're going totalk amongst themselves and go what does he really mean by that? What'she not telling us? I think he's doing this, even though he didn'tsay it was going to do this. So this this whole conspiracy theory,inclination amongst them, and half the time they'll take it offline. They'll texteach other privately, not an email, non in slack or teams. Theywant to go behind the scenes and then eventually this bubbles up and you gotto go. What the Hell I did? Did I say something convoluted? Andyou'll spend hours of them for they finally say, well, I justdidn't leave you. Well then, why didn't you come to me? Andthat's not how they're wired. That's just not how they're wired. So thatwas the first part, and I know I'm generalizing, but there's a lotof people listening to we're not going. Yes, yeah, the second partwas I'm a therapist as a CEO. I said this already and I've saidthis again, my number one job, because I've got, I had abackfill on myself, backfill myself. So I've got ahead of sales, I'vegot ahead of marketing and I let them,... know, run their show likeI wanted to run my show. So that leaves me to be thestrategic guy. That leads me to be the guy and keeps her away inthe same direction. And what it ultimately means is that I'm not this digitalmarketer Guy, I'm not this ace closer guy. What I am is thetherapist. You're working hard. You really look run down, you UKA.I see you and Susie aren't getting along. What's the root cause of that?Susie, I see you and billy aren't getting along. Billy says,is this? Is that for you? Yeah, what are we go gettinga room and seeing Kumbayo, see if we can't overcome this. All right, everybody, just now. Let's just chant and meditate them this for awhile. So there's a lot of counseling therapy involved. And make sure everybodyand and it's not helped with covid everybody's locked up. And you know,historically we, many of us, would be in our office, we'd feedoff each other, we would blow off steam in the office and it wouldbe done. So that's when the two biggest things that have been I justbang my head around. I'm like, is it me and my stupid butevery I talked to they just laugh at me and they I'll say, Yep, that sales, though, really good. I the humans most complicated factors inany anywhere we are, where we're typically the complicating factor. are avideo when did you get turned onto video kind of? What was the Yahamoment for you and what are a few ways that you use video for thebenefit of yourself and or Your Business? So you know, I've been doingvideo for for a freaking ever, like a very, very long time.I'm but I have my own agency that I was I ran for almost adecade before Vanillosoft recruited me and I closed it down to take the job.And a big part of my income was doing live streams and podcasts and,you know, video. So videos been big for a long time. Butin when, in the early days, video was, you know, here, give me five thousand dollars and I produced for you a two minute video. We'll bring a crew in and all this gear and the gearwait forty twopounds each and you know, it was a big production. So when Ireally got jazz was it would kind of it kind of came down to whenI took on the job at Vanillosoft, because I was like vanillas offt likeokay. So at the time I'm going on competing in sales, off andoutreach a little bit. We hadn't really defined that. We were SMB andthey've got like three hundred million dollars in funding and I don't. I havenone of the less than one percent of that. How do I compete withthem on something that costs me nothing? Are almost nothing and it was aone to punch it was. Well, if I do social I can reachout the influencers and I want to build up a following. It's always aboutrelationships. Relationships come a cross in videos way more than they do on atext. Boss, as the first part, second part was webinars. We needthe leads. So again we can do video webinars, but let's doour production quality and engages. Let's do talk show, let's do CNN,because that time no one was doing that right. They were still doing anaudio only webinars. So let's just go nuts with this. So they becamea competitive weapon. That's what got me so jazz about it. and thecost to do video drop like a rock. You know, I could do avideo on my smartphone if I wanted to. My biggest investment was acouple of soft lights and maybe our whilartis microphone and maybe a Dongle to gofrom the waters microphone, from my phone to the DSL our camera that Ibought used on Ebay. I mean it was really the cost came down dramatically. So that's what was for us. It was literally probably three, fouryears ago, when we said this is a weapon. This is a weaponthat will allow us to play with the big boys, which, ironically,it's exactly what happened, and it's also the exact same timeline that you sawthe emergence of the personal brand. So they go hand inhand. I can'timagine doing our job sales or marketing today without that. The disadvantage you're atwithout video, just forget it. It's you're going to get lost in thenoise. Do you have a lot of team members who are using video kindof on their own, but, you know, similar to you. Imean obviously there's this personal component to it and you're doing a lot of teaching, an education in an entertaining format. You're just you're fun and easy towatch, by the way, and this of that'll lead to a follow upquestion. But are any of your team members using it in a similar way? No, and I wish they were and we've they all want to.I think too many people get stuck in their own head and the one thingI try to tell them over and over again is listen. You should beno different on video than you are in real life, like if you wereto go and watch me speak in a public stage. When we remember yousaid have trade shows and people totally yes, I would look the same one thatstage as I do in the video. So if I can go do that, why can't I go do that? I think people just get really,really in their head now. So the question was that they do notlike me. No. Do I have several team members using video? Yes, I've got several reps who use tools like bomb bomb that are stunning andthey because it's a way to be personal with with their target audience. They'lluse videos on linkedin. If I dealo...

...get stuck, to say hey,that I miss something. so that works like videos on Linkedin. When it'slook, yeah, it's a green. These case it's like goal. Likeninety nine percent the time I like, I'm so sorry, you have beenbusy. Get right on that. I do have a lot of my productpeople now who are now only because I forced them, are wanting to getan and are certing to get very busy. They're having they have their own webinarseries now, they have their own podcast now on or been a thosauce brand and COSS, but they're getting out there and the best example Isay to them is this Nema. Take a look at them and read it. Gong think a look at Sarah Brazier at Gong. Take a look atGong and let's just be them right. You know, you should be atrust, a resource, and how I often said that these people is we'regoing to hold your hand, we're going to everything for you, so youhave to worry about will edit you? Will make it? Wills will buyyou the gear, will put it in front of you. Right you seeyou at the right mic, the right lights of stuff. Done, boughtit. I just need you out there. And the reason we're doing that,because I have had good traction on my own, is because I can'tscale. So if I truly want to become an expert in my markets thatI serve, I need brand ambassadors for each of those markets and that's whywe're doing it. Yeah, really good. Good. Go one layer deeper onkind of the why video. Obviously it's a unique format. It's avisual format, it's more emotionally engaging. People feel connected to you even thoughthey've never met you. This kind of like pair of social dynamic that youknow, we've had with television people in film people for years talk about methat the human side or the psychological side, like what got you lit up onit, like what was your oh my gosh, this is definitely differentand better, and all my team members should be doing it, even theones who aren't as sharp, witty or extroverted as you are, which,ironical, is funny because I'm an introvert to St're Claire. Cool. Yeah, so what was really got me? I think it was the it wasthe reaction, it was the visceral reaction of the audience. And you saidit. All right, so think about it this way again. When Ibegan at Vanillasof in my linked to profile was reasonable. You know, I'dearned the position I had, but nobody really knew who I was. Sohow do I insert myself into the conversation? And I quickly learned with video.Video is relational. So you don't need to be me, you don'tneed to be funny, you don't need to be exaggerated, you just needto be in it. I'm going to use a overused word here, authentic. And when you were just you, people smell it, they feel it. Then all of a sudden, involuntarily, they're smiling watching you and you makethem feel good. There's trust that's built up and you've never talked tothem so it was it will be sold. A couple things happened. We sawjust our traffic go through the roof. We saw the engagement go through theroof, and that of course, at you know, the upside ledto a lot of inbound leads. That became deals, lowest cost of youknow, acquisition going right there. But the other part was we saw trust. So people would come to us. I this is a rolls all thetime. They're all been watching your content for a long time. Love it. You've made such a difference in my life. Can I ask you aquestion? And so the trust then led the word of mouse, even ifthey weren't buying, was word mouth before saying, you know, you're lookingfor sales engagement. You had Dar all prey O vanillas of if you needto go check them out, they're awesome here. Let Me Hook you upright. So it was the reaction of people and in fact I knew Iwas really in trouble. was that weird experience when, maybe about a yearunto the process, I was walking, I just arrived at a trade show. I was walking the halls and I would watch people stop and stare atme and whisper amongst themselves as I walk down the hallway, and that soundsvain. It's not meant to, because it was. It's the most disconcerting, spooky thing going. And you know they're all recognizing you. Know,the conversation is that they're a pre or he looks familiar, I've seen himaround. Who is that guy? Right? And so when you're having that effect, you're tangibly impacting people's lives and it's all through the power of videoand videos just the medium. It's the relationship that you're establishing and building,whether you're telling them how to set up Gmail or how to configure their iphoneor how to sell better. You become a trusted resource and then you becomea destination, you become a brand, and it's just people want to likeyou, they want to be with you, they want to trust to you,they want you are their friend, you, they bring you into theirhomes, they watch you on their seventy and TV. You know, thisis what they do. I cannot tell you how many times that's been sharedwith me about yeah, they're all I...

...go to sleep with you every nightbecause they're listening to my podcast or putting me on TV and fallen asleep,which is what I do. I put people asleep. So there you go. I mean that's the impact that it is just very, very personal,the best way to put it. Yeah, really good. Two things there.That authenticity piece. There's to me, I think the dynamic there, becauseyou said they people can sense it on you or they can whatever theythey sense it. I think it's this kind of confidence and comfort in yourown skin and having found your voice like that blend there of I'm secure asan individual human being and, Oh, by the way, I have informationthat I can help you with. I think that combination is the sweet spot. Again, speaking to people. I am also an introvert, speaking topeople who feel like maybe they don't have a big enough energy or a bigenough personality or enough extraversion to be in front of people. It's this ifyou are secure in yourself, that is fundamentally attractive, and I don't meanthat like in a physical way. It's like it's an attractive quality of someonewhere you feel like, Gosh, that person you know, comfortable in theirown skin, confident in what they're sharing, and so I think a lot morepeople should be pursuing this. I have had the same experience. Bythe way, it trade shows. We're very focused in a particular industry fora couple of years here at bombomb and so when I would go to tradeshows in that industry in particular, I would have conversations in line at starbucks, I would have conversations the elevator. I would have kind of like somany good conversations and sometimes it was like hey, Ethan, and sometimes itwas like yes, Hey bombomb guy, and sometimes it was like Hey,I know you don't yeah, it's just it just creates. It's just sofun because I had the conversations you never would have had otherwise and because theyfeel like they know you, like you're a friend in a trusted resource,they skip what I call the how's the weather questions. Yes, right,so you get in the elevator at the trade show it's like hey, howabout that? How about that mainstage this morning? That's pretty good. Huh. Or Gosh, it sure is warm here in San Diego. Huh.You know, and you get to like really good stuff. I find oftenthey reference back to the content I've done as if we've been having this conversationfor a long time. So, Hey, when you talk to that person andthey said this and you said that. Why did you say that? AndI'm like in my mind going okay, which I do like a zillion productionsa week. which production are they referring to? Write and it?Could they just skip it? Like you see, they skipped the high hello, the your friends. Yeah, of course, of course, you knowwhat we're talking about, right, Bud, and which I love, I absolutelylove, and then I just I'm like, hape, do them,I'm slow, I'm sored. Remind me again what the conversation was those whatthis all right? Okay, cool, yeah, so good. I couldtalk with you all afternoon. For Your Sake and for the listeners, Iwill say I should probably have you back because I have several other questions thatwe're not going to get to today, including inside, inside sales, podcasting, what you've learned on that journey mentorship. We're both in a peak community group. I know you've done some education in that group. There's a lotmore we should, can, should, would talk about, but for nowI will say if you've enjoyed your time with Darrel, as I have,you should probably check out episode ninety with Todd Capony, mutual friend of bothof ours and the author of the transparency sale and we talked a lot aboutauthenticity and transparency and reputation and reviews and some of the things we talked abouthere, and then, a little bit more recently, episode one hundred andtwelve, with Lisa Earl McLeod, who is the author of selling with noblepurpose and having this kind of clarity of intention in this idea that the wayyou do your work matters and focusing on the process can produce the outcome ina better way than focusing on the outcome alone. This idea in this thereason I thought of it was you're offering early on about sales engagement and howto do it in a way that is helpful and productive and doesn't ruin theexperience for anybody or frustrator, confuse anyone or dehumanize either party, because Iwas ninety with Todd Caponey and one hundred twelve with Lisa Earle mcloud. BeforeI let you go, Darrel, can you do two things for me?The first is to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on yourlife for your career, and the second is to give a nod or ashout out to a brand or a company that you appreciate for the experience theygive you as a customer. All right, so the somebody. It's going tobe Cliche, I apologize, not original. It's going to be mywife. She has been in the most tolerant, patient woman ever and we'vemarried over thirty years and she has come with me all over the country,all over this world. She's see me and my best, see me amworse and she's never stopped believing in me and she keeps telling me every dayhow lucky and gifted I am and I tell every day she should stop drinking. So that's the first person. Second person the brand. I was thinkingabout this. Okay, I full disclosure. Ethan Mighty giving me a heads up. He's going to ask me the brand question, but not long ago, and I didn't have an answer. But I was inspired. I havean answer and I'm feeling good about this...

...answer. To Ethan, I wantto see your reaction this answer. My reaction is a brand that I trust, that's never let me down, never disappointed me. I feel like agood value from and yet I've never, ever seen anybody from their organization everspeak. It's just the quality of the product for the money that I payfor it is if you're in the A V world, it's newer, oryou may hear him and cause newer and Dobweer and they sell, you know, video, photographotography, gears, tripods, everything you meant, lights and it'sjust it's just good value for the money and when you're trying to buildup all your gears, you can do what you got to do. Youcan't afford a lot. They've just been there for me every step of theway. So kneework comes to mind. I really like that one. Gogive give me just a little bit more there. I mean this idea ofyou know, we talked obviously a lot about video on this idea that Ihave a relationship with the the company, through an individual. This is onewhere or you haven't had probably much, if any, no, human interaction. Talk about the components of trust there. I think consistency is certainly part ofit does what it says it's going to do. I placed in orderand it confirms it and it gets everything good would trust is a powerful thing. How what in this six in this context, how they built a trustingrelationship with you? Trust and value for me that's okay. I'm you know, every I'm going to spend money, but I don't want to spend crazyamount of money and anything and right goes for software, goes for a car, goes for a house and it goes for audio vide year. So howthey built trust with me? Just by you know, we've got the advertising. They give you all the spects, they understand owner it is. Theydon't oversell something, but they do a really good job developing the community.So if you look at the reviews and Amazon, these reviews are like oneor two or three. These are like hundreds or thousands of reviews and theresponsive. So you understand that it's not just the brand is good and thevalue is good, because you can see what all the prices go for.They've not dramatically jacked their prices up over the years. Their brand has growna little bit maybe, but not a lot. So they've held true totheir values and their principles. I respect that about them so now so muchso then whenever I'm going to buy something, like literally Friday I took delivery ofsome by led lights, white yellow six under six, the lads withthe barn doors, cheap stands, I think I paid in Canadian dollars toin a quarter, so in American dollars is like fifteen cents. And youknow, boom, they were there within two days. It had to comein oversee you on a container ship through. They're nicely there's stocked. Customer Servicesalways there. You Plug it, everything comes in, is beautifully package. This is everything over and over and every time. I buy from themand I know if have a problem I can go back and the on thestand behind their product. That's what it is. I just have faith intheir gear. They've given me a consistent experience and now that the first placeI go looking when I need to buy gear, not the last place onthe middle. The first place I go what does Neiber have on this?What's their price? Now that becomes the baseline that I measure other vendors offof. So good. And the that that last piece you added there thisI have the confidence that if something goes sideways, they'll be there for me. Like this idea of risk management, like it's taken care of, youdon't have any concerns. So good. All right. If someone enjoyed this, and if they're listening right now, I know they did. How canthey connect with you, Daryl? How can they connect with the Nillisoft?How can they connect with inside, inside sales? Where would you send peopleto follow up on this? Then us offtcom, pretty straightforward. No,we don't give free soft ice cream, but is another place that does that, I'm told. So you're good. That way. For me, Linkedinis obviously the easiest. If you just want to Google the word prayal PRAAill, you're going to see a gazillion matches, of which I am agazillion less to maybe. So I am like everything you you'll find me.There are prailcom, twitter out opinionated on club head was opinionated. So youcan find me, no problem, awesome, and I will throw some of thoselinks. We always write these up. We do short write ups full embeddedaudio with a new searchable player. By the way, if you there'sa phrase you heard while you were walking and talking, or, sorry,walking and listening, you can always go to bombombcom slash podcast in type inlike Matrix Organization. You can hear that section again. I'll take you rightto it. And we also do video clips to that's all at bombobcom slashpodcast darrel, thank you so much for your time. Really enjoyed it,as I expected, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some ofthe benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easyto do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book rehumanizeYour Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn morein order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listeningto the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a...

...better experience for your customers. ContinueLearning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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