The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

3. Why Content Experiences Beat Content Marketing w/ Randy Frisch

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You feel cheated.

You‘ve tried to create amazing content to win the content marketing game.

And yet your revenue hasn’t shot through the roof. Why?

The problem isn’t your content, it is how you’re putting it all together.


You need to put your content into a content experience framework according to my podcast guest Randy Frisch, who is CMO at Uberflip, a speaker, and author of F#ck Content Marketing: Focus on Content Experience to Drive Demand, Revenue & Relationships.

The perspective that we have to keepwhen we look at and experiences is that creating one is great, but itmay get us an award, like a marketing award or whatnot, but it'snot necessarily going to help us always scale the business. You're listening to thecustomer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personalhuman touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales,marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customershumanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey. Thanks so much for clickingplay on this episode of the Customer Experience Podcast. You're going to lovethis one because I'm joined by a cofounder of a company who spent several yearsas chief operating officer before moving to chief marketing officer. They're leading a brandnew category called content experience. There's a book in the works, so muchgoing on with a company that we've evaluated several times here at bombomb. Lovewhat they're up to. Welcome to the customer experience podcast, Randy fresh ofUBERFLIP. Thanks so much, Eathan. I'm I'm excited to chat with youand love what you guys are doing at bombombs at this this will be fun. We probably will be speaking the same language, for sure. That's athat's the fun thing about being able to host these conversations is carvering some timeout of the day to catch up. I always like to start with thisquestion. Can you define, because be because the definitions are many and I'mtrying to work toward, over the course of the next hundred conversations, somesemblance of a clear picture that's informed by some of the best people working andoperating in in growing businesses today. Can you define customer experience? What doesthat mean to you? What are some of its characteristics? That's it's agreat question. Even the problem with terms like that is you get a hundredpeople in the room and you'll get a hundred different definitions. And you knowthe book I wrote, which kind of pokes a bit at another term,which is content marketing, which will get to, has the same problem.Right, you know what role are you in and and what do you careabout? And I know for your podcast you have a wide audience of peoplewho listen to this, from marketers to sales leaders to success leaders, andI think the definition of customer experiences different to all them, and that's partof the problem right, you know, because all of us have to unitearound this common understanding of what a customer experience is. Now no different thanthe the space that I'm in, which is content experience, which in manyways has as tie backs to content experience. I often really really explain content experiencein a simple way, which I think we can pull over here.With content experience, it's as simple as any time your audience encounters content,what is that feel like for them? You know, what is it looklike from an environment perspective, how we structured those steps of people go throughand how do we ultimately engage them? So I think about it in thatsame those three ways, environment, structure and engagement, and I think thata lot of us can. Can you customer experience in the same way?You know, it's, you know, it's going a little bit beyond content, if you will, although content often exist at many of these customer experiencetouch points. But, you know, think about the environment that we putpeople in, you know, into, think about the way we structure thesteps that they're going to take and think about the ways that we engage themto continue that journey, if you will, and you know so we can.We can tie this to so many different areas, software and retail experiences, where is customers. We just think about that journey that we go through. That's great, I love it and I want to go one step deeperthere. But you're right at one of the quotes that motivated me to goin this direction, as as thinking about if I can, if I can, get the time of smart people like you and talk about things. Whatdo I want to talk about? And...

...it was one of the quotes thatmotivated me in this direction, with Seth Goden' see, you know, ifit's noticed, it's marketing, which you know in a way it's just talkingabout customer experience, because you know as a marketer, he says that andtherefore everything is marketing and all people are marketers and you did a nice job, they're saying. You know, content is is a microcosm of the experienceoverall, and the way think, the way you and and your team thinkabout content experience, you can also think of about customer experience in the samecontext. So let's get really specific there. What is contents role? So whenyou step back and you are looking holistically at the entire customer experience,how do you describe contents role in there? Where are some of the best rolesthat it can play? Are the most important roles that can play ina broader, holistic view of customer experience? Yeah, it's a great question andit's something that I don't think we actually think enough about. I thinkwhen you think about content, most of us are first thought goes to thepeople on our team who are content marketers, right, and we associate that contentis simply creating content. So as long as we are creating content,we're doing content marketing or we are in the content marketing game or we're allin on content. That that's that's kind of only the first step, right. It would be like saying I'm going to go, you know, builda fort for my kids and I'm going to go get all this would nowI'm done right, you know, or I built the Fort, I'm done. Well, no, I have to create some sort of interactive experience withthat for it. So my kids care, right, so they want to getinvolved in that and I think that's the part that a lot of uskind of take a step back, I'll pull this back to your your areaof expertise, which is customer experience. You know, I can't tell youhow often I hear this with content experience. Something going to bet you'll you'll tellme it's the same. People will say something like, you know what, that whole customer experience thing, that's something we're really going to you know, take a look at next year, right, or that's like a queue. Fourth thing for us. You know, we're really going to go deep onon customer experience or content experiencing queue for and I laugh at that becauseit's that person thinking like, oh, it's not something I have to dealwith it until I decide to deal with it. I'm going to deal withother things. What we ignore is that anytime, as I said earlier,that someone encounters your content or in your case, and encounters the brand inmany other ways, they have an experience. So it's more of a question ofis the experience we're putting forward winning or losing deals for us? Andand that's when you start to say Holy Shit, like yeah, I am, I losing deals because I'm ignoring this or whose owning it? And andthat that's really what led me to the book that I wrote that comes outat you know, in on March, six of nineteen. Is this ideathat we're so wrapped up on the idea of creating content that we don't thinkabout mapping that content to a buyer journey. We don't think about, you know, the way we put that content to be, everything from the basicsof mobile friendly, which I still can't believe we're talking about ten plus yearslater. Crap. Yeah, it's like still some people are like, Ohshit, yeah, how is that going to look up? But it goesway beyond that. It goes into nail things such as, you know,how do we recommend other content? Right? How do we deliver experiences in thesame way that brands like spotify in Netflix of one us over through,you know, putting us in this immersive experience for week we click on onepiece to the next. Yeah, so it's you've already you've already kind ofwalked around it a little bit. I just want to give give people theopportunity to understand this content experience framework that you've built and I believe you probablyunpack. I've only read the introductory chapter to the book and I am lookingforward to its release here really soon. But this environment, structure, discoverabilityand engagement, I believe, are probably fundamental to the framework. Can youspeak a little bit very specifically to this content experience framework? Yeah, forsure. You know, the first question...

...is why do we even need aframework? Right, you know, we have so many frameworks thrown at us. You know my favorite one. So go back to university. I stilllove squat, right, like yeah, right, it's amazing. Who doesn'tuse Swat on a daily basis? We should always be evaluating things in thatway. But you know, the reality is, in anything, I getto do a lot of kind of round table discussion sometimes with marketers and oneof those questions we all love and around table is tell me that campaign thatyou're really proud of, right, and everyone goes around and they like talkabout this awesome thing that they did in marketing and how well it connected andeveryone's in a while I'll challenge someone to say, like, okay, howdid you scale that? And then they look at me and that like andknow you just asked you like one really good use case. We didn't scalethat, but it were really well that one time, right, and Ithink that's you know, that's just a one of those bunny anecdotes of thisthing that, you know, we have to keep our the perspective that wehave to keep when we look at and experiences is that creating one is great, but it make us an a war, like a marketing award or whatnot,but it's not necessarily going to help us always scale the business. Andthat's where, you know, the expectation today of our audiences is that wewill deliver personalized experience with deliver compelling experiences at every stage of the buyer trewrite. This ties perfectly back to that overall customer experience yet again. Andso to do that, how are we going to go take that on?And that's why we need a framework like the content experience framework. What itdoes is, and to clarify that, has nothing to do with creating content. Right, like, if you're looking for a content marketing creation framework,do not read this book at this is not a book for content marketers.It's not going to outline like the key to creating like the ultimate blog post. Listen, so I've only read the opening chapter, but I would saybefore you create a piece of content, read this book right after you readthe book. Then you can go get, you know, the eighteen best tipson how to make a blog post, how to make a you know,an interactive web page. That answers the top three questions. I thinkthis one probably goes first. The way you're describing it. I agree that. In fact, I believe you mentioned you have a great guess coming up. Who will tell you how to great, great content on your podcast, whichis a in Hanley right, like and it's fantastic. She'll tell youhow to write that great content. But this will help you think about howwe're going to map that content and all the different instances. The problem isa lot of us get overwhelmed its scale. Right. So what this framework doesis it takes you through five steps and the book, or I shouldsay the second part of the book, is fully focused on the framework througha combination of stories and actual marking examples. But some of the stories are justfun and funny. I'll, you know, take credit for that.Hopefully think I'm funny after you read it. My Wife, not always. She'sgot a good sense of humor, though. But you know, thefirst step of the framework that we go through is the the idea of centralizingyour content. It's so important for us to actually have a home for ourcontent that we can direct people to. I'll give you a quick story thatit's not even in the book. Is this one just happened this past week. There is a company WHO's trying to sell the me right now, right, software company. I'm not going to I'm not going to embarrass by sayingthe company name or I don't even what it rhymes with. But but theirony here. You're going to love this and people maze piece together. Theirtagline is only experience, right. So yeah, let's not embarrass them beyondthat. But I've got one of their reps who's emailing me. I'm onthe regular cadence every other week and the emails, they're pretty good, actuallytaking the time to personalize, make sense. Talks about my company, talks aboutwhat they could do, but then he always links out to a pieceof content, right, and the funny...

...thing I always look at is he'sgot me controlled there. I'm in an email between me and him, there'sno other distractions. He sends me to watch this video each time. It'sa different video every time, but it's on Youtube, right, and theproblem there is you know, this is where it comes back to centralizing.He can own that experience. Their Youtube's going to recommend a whole bunch ofother content to me at the right one, right. You know, there's actuallyhe's got the video titled Properly. It's going to be probably a lotof competitoring, competing ideas, if not competing companies, that I'm going tobe served up after I watch his or her video. Exactly. So thevideo itself is fantastic. It's a great video, but glaring at me inthe bottom corners this video by war about Warren Buffets Ten keys to success intwo thousand and nineteen, and I'm like, Ben, I want to be richlike Warren Buffett, right, like that's what I care about, aact, not how to go on the experience anymore. So I you know, this is just an anecdote to help you understand this idea of centralizing content. Right, we move on from centralizing to organizing. Not The sexiest part, I will I will admit some of the stories are great in the book, but the idea there is is the tagging, the auditing that we haveto do of our content to be able to move on to the next step. That next step is all the personalizing content, right, and that's theone part, that's the part that you know, we talked about at theround table. We love to talk about these examples, but the ability todo so, it's scale because you've invested time and effort in those first twosteps, which is centralizing organizing. That's what sets you up to be ableto scale once you've personalized, once you've built out these experiences, and there'sso many great ones that we go through that our marketing strategies is kind ofcomes to your earlier question than on, like the different ways that content canbe using. It gets used in ABM, it gets used in Inbail, itgets using to manage, it gets using sales enablement. Right. Wejust think of those terms that we don't think content first. But try andexecute any of those strategies without content, right, it's right or to everycampaign. So once we personalized for all those different ways that we're going tomarket, then we move on to step forwardich is distribution, and that's howwe're going to get the content into the hands. But that's I don't wantto take anything weight. That's easy at that point right, right now,it's often combersome. It's hard. Right. If if it's our marketing team andwe're doing an email inside of a marketing automation platform, then we'll gowe'll jump in there and we're struggling to figure out what content to link to, right, or we take this approach that update you to consume seven piecesof content, which IDG says is the average number that we need you toconsume through seven emails, versus thinking, how do I send you to oneemail? We you'll consume seven pieces at the same time. Right. Imean that's that's a big jump in productivity and acome and back to this wholeidea we're talking about. That's a better experience, right. That's the experiencethat you and I expect on spotify that gets us to listen to to thesedays, a hundred and twelve artists a month versus sixty eight artists a monththree years ago. spotify did that just by introducing the idea of recommendations.Yep, yeah, I love that to the adjacency and it's one of thereasons we were so serious about implementing your software. Is, instead of wonderingwhat warm Buffetts got for me, I'm wondering. Oh Gosh, they solvethis problem too. Oh, I can watch a video on this. Oh, I can check out a pdf about that. In this controlled environment you'retalking about. Did I miss number five? I got centralized, organized, personalizeddistribution and generating results. Right. I mean that that's what we're allin this for, and you know as much, as it's a framework tothis point, that kind of goes step by step. The generating of resultshappened as you do those first four steps. So it's not like all of asudden like okay, now we have to make sure this works. Youknow that's not how marketing works. We have to be doing the things alongthese stages to make sure that we can first of all track, we cananalyze, but we can also convert people,...

...right. I mean this is we'retalking about, of a marking funnel. We're talking about different stages that contentis supporting, right. We talked about in them, we talked aboutepm there, we talked about sales enablement. Those are happening and, depending onhow you look at your funnel, at anywhere from the lead mql stagedown to you when you're in Essayo stage and trying to convert someone at thatrevenue stage. I've had many people who have commented already on reading early copiesof book. It's a I'm taking a lot of this into what we're doingfrom a customer success perspective, because content is the key to US building arelationship that sustains and ensures it when renewal time comes. We're thought of asa trusted advisor to this organization right and I think that that speaks to thespirit of the podcast. Two of you know, we talked about especially whenwe're producing marketing materials, we're thinking about generating leads, nurturing leads, convertingleads, maybe to the point of on boarding leads, and and that thatexperience. And then the other side of the house is going to manage itfrom there, because sales and marketing or joined at the hip and we doall this work together, and a lot of that is the content marketing,or at least you know I'm I'm going to walk it back just in thespirit of your book and you in the spirit of how you teach all ofthis around content experience. It's, you know, that's content production essentially,and most of that lives over in sales and marketing. The CS side ofthe House is, you know, how do you make sure someone successful?How do you double down on the successful people, how do you rescue theones who are unsuccessful, and how do you, you know, work themall to you know, advocacy and ultimately, referrals and and all these other thingsthat we want out of happy, successful customers and content is court ofthat whole experience. Again, something really interesting and looking at your background,Randy, in addition to cofounding the company, you know you started as chief operatingoff from change in speeds a little bit. But again, just todraw this line of handoffs from sales to marketing to see us, I assumethat it's chief operating officer, you oversaw a lot of that, or atleast had per view into, you know, how this works. While can youtalk a little bit about your experience in managing either? We have alot of experiences going on here and I want to get quickly to the livein person experience of the conference you you all are running to, but canjust spend a minute on how serving as a chief operating officer put you ina great position to transition to marketing and and to see maybe customer experience andcontent experience differently. Yeah, so early days it was kind of by necessitythat I took on more of a CEO style rule then then a pure marketingyeah, I am a marketer at heart. I grew up wanting to be amarketer. The fact that I not only get to be a CMO atthis stage but you know, of a Marquette company that I was involved themin starting, is is a dream come true. So I'm kind of livingthe dream, as I just said there, but doing that CEO Gig where Ihad and so today I have a few other parts of the Organization reportedto me, definitely gives you an understanding of that entire buyer journey right.You know, throughout different times in the in the business, I've had everythingfrom sales through CS and as well as fine and its reporting to me.So you start to understand the cost and you also start to understand that thateverything we do in marketing is for nothing if the other pieces aren't working right. I mean one of our core values here at a reflect really ties intothe idea of what it means to be an entrepreneur and I am the lastone to say that being an entrepreneurs about starting a business. It's about owningwhat's in front of you. Right, like that's what it's all about.And you know there's there's one of the analogies I'll sometimes use is think ofof that car that is pulled over in the ditch. I'm in Toronto now, where there's like way too much now, so you see this happening a lot, sure, and there's there's an exponential di difference from when you betweenwhen you go from two to three people...

...trying to push that car versus threeto four. Right, like when you get one person on every wheel,that thing just moves. Right when you got three people, you know,if you can't think of the car one because you're in a warm climate,your kind of never get stuck. I think of like moving that awkward diningroom table right where you got like two people on two corners and one personkind of like straddling the rest of the load. It just doesn't work right. You need all areas of the business operating together in unison. If onepiece lets up, that car is not moving, that table is not moving. It falls of bricks right and and that's the viewpoint I got in thatCEO roll is what's working well on our success ast side was working well onsales, marketing and other parts of the business, of course, including productand whatnot. You know, and what do we need to do to geteveryone to communicate better and to make sure you know? I'll bring this backto the topic. We have that there were delivering a great customer experience.Right in every point feels the same, and I actually the last, Ithink it's last chapter of the book, I talked about a time where wedidn't have that down well, right, like we're not perfect here. Ithink every company goes to that, see, and there was a point we hadthis this concept that we would use to explain what we did to customers. So we don't use it as much anymore. It was it was calledthe content experience wheel. So it's before we had a framework and it wasit was a lot less thought out, and part of it being less thoughtout is everyone had a different name for it, right. So customer successcalled it the death star, right, like like like an evil killing machine. Lats buy in there a lot of buy and parts of marketing we're callingat the connext wheel. I I'll take credit. I had this idea thatwe should call it the helm, like, you know, fearing a ship.So all of a sudden you had all these visuals going through the companyand, as a result, what would that mean for a customer? Rightlike you, you hit under Ethan is. You know, eventually we want toadvocacy. What is what our advocates going to go tell their you know, the people they're going to refer that we are. Are we all wheelat helm or a death start right? It's just like it's really scary.So we have to find ways to make sure that we have that same narrative, that same experience at the end of the day, at every stage ofthe buyer journey and internally throughout the organization. Hey, before I get to theway we like to close this, Randy, talk a little bit aboutthe live experience that your team is creating with connects. You know, whythe live experience? How does that serve the company or the community or,you know, people thinking about how to implement content experience, like why thelive event and where does that plug into the whole thing for you all?Absolutely so. So this will be the fourth year that we do connects,since for content experience, it happens in Toronto towards end of August. Thisyear's the twenty of the twenty two. We had seven hundred fifty people lastyear. It's a fourth year, but in the second year we made abig strategic change on the conference. We dropped UBERFLIP from it. Essentially coolso he's called the Uber Flip experience. We dropped UBERFLIP. We remove productkeynotes we really needed about thought leadership and pulling together a movement of people whobelieve the greeting contents not enough, that we have to use that content.So it's not just content marketers you come out to this thing. It's Demandagenmarketers, it's digital marketers, it's sales people were who are have a passionfor, you know, being better. It had to communicate at the endof the day, and it's become quite a movement as well. At lastyear, the first year that I don't know if you know, Jay bearof convincing burt. Yeah, partnered with convincing convert and Jay to ultimately takethis event to the next level and and we really did that last year.This week I'm actually securing all of our...

...speakers for this year. It's aton of fun. I was kidd that it's a one time of year Iget to feel like a general manager for like a sports team forever. Right. My roster is even better than last year exactly. You know you wantto sign everyone, but you know you've got a cap that you got towork within. So it's a lot of fun and you know it's not yourregular conference, and I know a lot of people say that, but youknow we do fun, silly things, but we also walk away with reallytransformative ideas and great networking sessions, including the first day, which is allworkshop based. So it's a great opportunity and you know, I look forwardto welcoming a lot of the peoplefully listening to this to Toronto. And ifyou want to get a taste of it, we're actually in the midst of aroad show of eight cities. Just wrapped up Atlanta. WE'VE GOT AUSTINCOMING UP, BOSTON, Chicago, Seattle's and Jose, Toronto a few othersalong. They're awesome. So road show any day across the continent and Torontoand August sounds awesome. It doesn't snow in August, right, of coursenot. And I think Michigan, I wish it came with Canadian citizenship andI've been to Toronto several times. A great city, even in the winter. You just gotta have decatitions. We Michigan State or you have them.Guy, University of Michigan Alumnus. Yeah, to the big has funds. Itwas fun. Yeah, it's that's yeah, that that is an experiencein and of itself. I recommended to everyone, even if you are nota fan. Hey, because we're all about relationships here at bombomb and.On the customer experience podcast I like to give everyone a chance to to mentionor thank someone who's had a really positive experience on your life or on yourcareer in and give a shout out to a company that's doing customer experience reallywell. Oh Wow, okay, that's a fun one. So I willdefinitely think my family. I mean, I can't, I not do there. But you know, when you get into more of the workspace, youknow, in shaping the ideas, I think it's the opportunity to interact withpeople. The podcast you're doing now is definitely amazing for the audience, butit helps you right. So it's a lot of the guests. I runa weekly podcast. You know, we're I think we're over two hundred episodesnow and you know, just interacting with marketers on a day to day isso important and I think it pushes us to remember that as marketers, assales eater, success leaders, we got to talk to our customers and wegot to talk to people in the field. So I definitely think people who justpush me in that way on the company that inspires me. I stillemit and in impressed with slack. Like the experience that they deliver, youknow, the consistency of their brand and narrative. I'm not crazy about thenew logo, but it's a whole episode in and of itself, I know. But but you know, they they deliver a consistent customer experience to yourpoint, and you know their content, their their help desk, their product. It all speaks in the same language and I think that's something a lotof us should really reflect on. That's great. I've received that answer tothat question before, so they're obviously doing it right. Last thing, youknow, you have a book, you have a company, you have aconference, you have a podcast. This is your chance to date, ifanyone enjoyed any aspect of this conversation and they want to take it further byconnecting with you or the conference or the book or the Company Online. LayIt all out. How could people find you? How can people take thenext step on any of the stuff that we just covered? Yeah, nowthere's there's a lot going on. I'm so excited for you all. Thanksso much. At the best place to go to interact with me these days, kind of as essential point, is my website. So not you cango to Uger flipcom to learn about Uger flip, but if you want tolearn more about me and get your hands on the book, Go to berandcom. So that's like brandcom with the...

...most of my friends actually call merand, not randy. So we're gonna have fun with the branding there.If you have and it can go there, you can get an ex into thebook. You can buy it on Amazon as of March six and fromthere as well you can see some of my favorite podcast episodes that we've gotposted there, and some of the speaking that I do on a regular basisis posted there too. Awesome, Brancom Rant, I'm go ahead and elevatemy relation. Where is nows? I love it. Thank you so muchfor your time. Really enjoyed it. So much good stuff and there weresome some shoots I wanted to run down, but I knew we just go toolong and I want to respect your time in that of the listener.So thank you so much for your time and hope you have a great restof your afternoon. Thanks so much. Thank you. You're listening to thecustomer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers,you're in trusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. rehumanize the experience by getting face to face throughsimple personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You'vebeen listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss anepisode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bomb bombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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