The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

30. Avoiding Branding and Marketing Mistakes While Driving Fast w/ Dave Knox


No one can tell the future.

And if anyone claims they can, walk away… slowly.

Yet, there are ways to anticipate some of the biggest turns your business will encounter.

Brand builder, digital transformer, venture investor, and startup advisor, Dave Knox, opens up about three major mistakes he sees startup marketers make. As an independent strategic advisor and host of the Predicting the Turn podcast, Dave has seen the entire gamut of startup mistakes, big business blunders, and enterprise slip-ups.

He has turned all of his experiences into a career of helping businesses anticipate market changes. In this episode, we cover the struggles Fortune 500s are experiencing, holistic customer experience, and more.

The great marketing teams are the oneswhere the marketing leader is comfortable enough with their own skin that they say,I am great at this and I'm going to hire somebody better than me inthis this and this area, the single most important thing you can do todayis to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceedcustomer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast.Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey, welcome back to the customerexperience podcast. You're going to love this episode. Our guest works at theintersection of brands and technology, with a focus on startups, seed funding andventure capital. He's currently a strategic advisor at predicting the turn. He's alsoa podcast host of the same name predicting the turn. He's a managing partnerat Vine Street ventures cofounder at the brandery, which is a tech accelrator. Ilook forward to learn a little bit more about that. And also interestinghere is that he spent seven years of CMO at rockfish. This is acompany that's owned by WPPA, of formerly known as a global advertising and PRagency, but now they call themselves a creative transformation agency. I can seethat becoming a conversation theme here today. And so our guest today, DaveKnox. Welcome to the customer experience podcast a thank you for having me.Yeah, I'm really excited about this. I think there's obviously a lot goingon with with brands, technology, disruption, innovation, and you're kind of inan interesting seat around all of that, especially over the past decade. SoI look forward to getting into it. But I want to start where Ialways start, which is your definition or your thoughts on customer experience.Yeah, so customer experience, you're being a brand guy by training. Istarted my career proctor and gamble back in the day, and I think ofcustomer experience is being everything that's the front of the House, anything that touchesthat consumer and can influence how they think about your company, your brand,your business. So that's everything from the essence of the brand design to marketing, to sales to how you show up at retail. That customer experience isevery single one of those touch points rolled together. That's awesome. You've givenme language that I haven't heard on this question before. I I've asked itdozens of times. It's this clear delineation between front of House and back ofHouse, back of House being, of course, two things that most peopledon't see, in front of House being, to your point, everything that everyoneexperiences. So I love that. So go into your branding background.You know I've had an I've had a couple branding experts on the show andand I put you a probably adjacent to, if not in that category. I'velet you decide how you feel about that. But there seems to bea fair amount of overlap from time to time in talking about out customer experienceand brand experience or branding. What do... see the relationship there as beingin a where they similar, where they different? You have a line betweenthose two, or do you see them as approximately synonymous? Yeah, Ithink frankly they're. They're similar in there, if not completely overlapping. Customer Experienceis definitely an emerging field that the language has really only come about,I'd say, in the last decade. You've seen it in the public eye. It wasn't something that when we were getting the training and branding back inthe day was ever really talked about is its own thing. It was justthe essence of one of the things that you had to do. But withthe rise of bet to be marketing and the right of direct to consumer efforts, I think that's what's given rise to the language of customer experience. Butif you're not doing branding the right way, if you're not thinking about it aspart of your core efforts, there what is the essence of good brandingto you? What what is its outcome? If someone is committed to brand building, what are the obvious consequences of that? Yeah, so the essenceof I think what makes great branding is evoking emotion, because that's what abrand comes down to. Is it sparking something in a person when they seewhat you are here, what you are, when they hear your brand, dothey know something and does it evoke an emotion with it? And there'sa wide range of what that emotion can be. But great branding has thoughtabout that, has dictated it and it's been and planned across the board,and it's where it goes back to its being across every touch point. Thinkabout a company like Zappos. You can think a lot of things with it, but as sence, it's going to be a great experience. That's probablywhat you evoke and that feeling of happiness that goes into it. Love it. The feeling part of it is often something that someone will offer in thedefinition of customer experience, and so to wrap both of those together that theyare very, very overlapping. This is just a personal curiosity for me.I mean coming up in PNG, I imagine you got essentially the equivalent ofan MBA in your in your onboarding and training. What was that experience likefor you and how did that shape your career? Yeah, it's funny youuse those those words of like an MBA, because for me that's exactly what itwas. PNG, especially in brain management. It's kind of unique placein that probably about ninety two hundred and ninety five percent of my colleagues asassistant brain managers were coming from an MBA program and coming from usually a toptier whether it was a booth or a Harvard or something of that nature.I was a twenty two year old kid coming from a public university with,you know, just a bachelor of science and business. So for me itreally really was the MBA because one of the things that's amazing of a fortunefive hundred company that invests in their people is you get that training. You'llprobably every week for my first two, if not three years, there wasa training that I was going to that would either be a couple of hoursor full day every time. When you... promoted, you went to AssistantBrand Manager College, then brand manager college and so forth and so on.And you know, those were week long of all day events that they fleweveryone in from across the globe that was in your class and at your level. So for me it really was that MBA, that kind of training.But I think where it was differed from a just a classroom MBA, whichyou combine that learning with the fact at the same time you were putting thoseprinciples to work the next day. You weren't just talking in theory and casestudies, but you were owning a twenty million dollar marketing budget the next dayand doing something with it. So that's why, you know, I doa lot of talks at college campuses and especially when I talk to entrepreneur students. They want to go start a business right away at twenty two and allencourage a lot of them. Of Go find a place that you can getthat training first, because me at twenty two made a lot of mistakes andit was a lot better to be making those mistakes on the the budget ofa several billion dollar company then my tiny budget if I was an entrepreneur.Right. You know, your error in that context is a rounding error versusan error. With you is that you know, a twenty two year old, maybe start up founder, could be fatal. Yes, that's exactly it, and it's one of my first bosses. He said the great thing he goes, you know, just remember that we've created a system that has asafety belt on you. So drive the far car as fast as you canand we know that we've got the seat belt. You'll be safe. Ilove it. It's it's such good permission. It sounds like there's a really goodculture there. You like when I think about are you familiar with theservice profit chain? Loosely, but not intimately, it sounds it basically thepremises. You know, so many people focus on the far end of revenueand Growth, but these are outcomes of a whole series of events that walkback through the customer all the way back to employees and so the premises thatwhen you invest in tiring, onboarding, training, developing and you produce agood employee experience, that everything else falls out from there as a consequence.So focus there. It sounds like that was a part of your experience thereat PG. I'm glad I ask. That's great and it actually leads meinto a pair of questions that I that I had prepared, which I'll ask. The first what's happening at the intersection of brand and technology from a startup standpoint, and then the and then the follow up is what's happening therefrom, you know, maybe a fortune five hundred or just a generally amedium or large corporation standpoint, like at that intersection of Brandon Technology, werekind of live and work and talk and advise and probably study and publish,etc. Talk about that intersection from kind of a startup point of view.Yes, I think one of the things that's really emerged is the fact thatyou have that prominence of branding and marketing coming into play. One of mygood friends is a guy named Tim Copp who was the CMO for exact targetand when Tim joined is the CMO there in two thousand and seven. Hekind of had the premise that most of...

...the Bob World wasn't practicing brand marketing. They had demand generation and they had traditional be to be marketing, butreally this essence of bringing brand into the world of technology was something that notmany people had done, and so that's something he really focused on and Ithink he was a pioneer in a lot of ways, because fast forward tenyears later and I think actually some of the most exciting marketing that's going onand the most exciting brand work is actually being led from the bet tob worldinstead of the beat Toca world, and ironically, the beat to sea worldis becoming more about demand Jen and performance marketing, which used to be thepremise of the beat to be back in the day. So you've got thisblending where I think people are switching in between both of those worlds kind ofinterchangeably as a result. Well, he kind of answered both questions in onethere, and it sounds like there's just a little bit of a flip flopthere, which is really interesting. Why do you think that is the case? Added just a couple ideas that came to mind as you were talking aboutit. But you know why do you think that's the case that BTC has, to your view, maybe historically been less demand jen based and moving inthat direction, and startups and tech being less brand focused and started moving thatway, or some be tob rather? Yes, I think the Bet Tocone is a really simple one, which is the rise of direct to consumerbrands has changed the business that these guys have to be in because, youknow, you look at a Peng Uni lever and even a Ford Motor Company, we called them the biggest consumer marketing companies out there, but they actuallydidn't sell directly to the consumer. You know, the auto guys had togo through their dealerships, the pegs in the UNI levers had to go throughWalmart and target. They never actually own the end customer and that's why youwould hear in those worlds they talked about a customer in a consumer Walmart wasthe customer and the consumer was the person that was buying the product. Sothat's one change that's played out, I think, in a lot of cases. And then on the flip side, the way the reason for be tobe is the I'd say infusion of technology into the lives of be to behas caused a Cole, that has taken place, and why I mean bythat is think back two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, as youknow, the iphone was just coming out. It used to be that, you know, the enterprise in the IT guys, they dictate what technologyyou got issued. You get your blackberry, get your laptop, and then youhad all these people that had two phones. They had their work blackberry and they had their personal iphone, and the iphone got started dragging inand know, more and more into be to be. And what end uphappening is the consumer and customer experience that you had with an iphone, withfacebook, with every piece of technology,... would then walk into the workplaceand expect that same level of high end experience and that's really, I think, driven that behavior. That in turn caused all the be tob marketers haveto elevate their game in the same way. I love it's a really interesting pushingpull there. You mentioned earlier that some of the more exciting and interestingmarketing is being done in the be tob space. What are a couple thingsthat come to mind there? Yeah, so you know, one of theones, and I know you have a favorite question around who's doing customer experienceright. So one of the companies I love is terminus, and terminus isone of these great startups that's really redefining this world of account based marketing,and what I love is it's a twofold thing one. I just think accountbased marketing as a whole is one of the more interesting trends we're seeing inthe world of marketing today, and the orchestration and Co ordination of a greatabm campaign requires you to just be a great strategic marketer. It's about anart and science that combines so one. I love the fact that they're helpingrise. You give rise to that, but they're also practicing what they preachand you look at the work that they're doing with flip my funnel, creatingthe community around that, the podcast that creates the content with it, allof those efforts together are just truly truly top notch across the board. Yeah, I love it. It's a great example. Sand Rum Vajeri leads itas as kind of the face in the personality and in the podcast host alloff and a speaker as well, and really coming from a place of valueand education and building a community around the concept or the problem of contemporary beto be marketing today rather than being pitching software, pitching software, pitching software, pitching software. It's so funny the way one just naturally rolls out intothe other and we're both here. Several might team members are both consumers ofthe stuff that they put out in as well as being subscribers to the softwareas well. I love that you took it. there. Anything else youwant to share about, like the large corporate standpoint, like what are someof the challenges that they're facing? I think the one big thing that Ithat I took note of already, is that the market has changed on themand that they are now direct to consumers a consequence of or more often thanbefore. I obviously they still use retail, but anything else going on for likesomeone that's in a large brand or a large company, that should beon the radar. Yes, so one of my favorite pieces of content outthere is something that was done by Stanford University, actually, that Aaron Levy, who's one of the the founder of box. He did a class alongwith another colleague. It was called the industrialist dilemma and you can go watchall the videos. They put all the content up online for it, andwhat I love about that whole premise is it plays off, obviously, theinnovator dilemma and talking about the struggle for...

...lab the fortune five hundred today isthat the very things that gave them their competi advantage over the last few decadesare now a liability for them. In a world of six sigma, yougot your factories to be at this perfect balance line of profitability and you hadall these other things that went to perfection. But when the business that you're inchanges, what do you actually do with those historical things that once gaveyou an advantage? You you take what's happened in the world of shaving.It wasn't the Galette den See Dollar Shave Club coming. It was they couldn'tgo in and tell Walmart, Hey, by the way, we're going tolaunch something that competes directly against you. So those relationships become a liability.And what do you do with it? And that's kind of at the heartof what I wrote about in predicting the turn and the work I'm doing withthe podcast is how can you one address that fact, realize it's happening andthen do something about it? How can you go practice and learn from thisworld of innovation and then bringing them, bring that learning back into your hallways? And for me it's practicing this concept of market intelligence that gives you theability to see the how and when the future of your industry is going tohappen by being externally focused and learning from what's happening with venture and with startupsand everything else across the board. What are a couple ways that someone getsso? So it's one thing to see these trends and to identify them recognizeyour own liabilities. How are how is like, you know, a thousandperson or Tenzero or even hundred thousand person organization? How do they kind ofmake that Turner? They starting essentially doing startups inside the larger organization, givingthem freedom to explore and learn in a practical way. Like what have youseen or heard around that? Yeah, practical standpoint. Yeah, I meanthere's dozens of models that you can look at and not one is ever goingto be the right thing. You need to do a little bit of allof them, but a few that I personally really love. So one iscorporate venture capital. One of the reasons I love corporate DC is I thinka lot of people try and get incorporate DC for the same reason a VCgets into it, which is the financial returns. That's actually the least valuablething for corporate DC. You need to do it, you need to makea good return on capital and everything else. But the amazing thing about a venturecapitalist is every single day they have dozens of people walking into their doorsand telling them where the future is headed, and a great investor is able tosee all those things have their own thesis of where they think the worldis headed. But combine that with breadth and depth and pattern recognition of I'mhearing this, this and this. I think that means something to my businessand a corporate VC is a great way... be able to do that,to bring that in, to learn from it and not just look for dealflow and good investments, but actually uses as market intelligence for Your Business.So that's one thing that I love that I think a lot of you know. Nearly every corporation should have their an effort in that space. The secondone is involvement in the startup community, because corporate VC, while supervaluable,you only will catch a company at that moment that they're looking for investment.So you might limit yourself if you're only doing that. So that's why youneed to get involved with a lot of different versions of startup engagement, andthat startup engagement can be partnerships, it can be accelerators, it can beany of those elements. But the mistake most corporations make is they'd pick oneversion of startup engagement and that doesn't give them anough breath. You can't throwyour name on a corporate accelerator and said I'm seeing ten startups, so I'vedone everything. You need to get out there and do a lot more.So I'm at least of the belief that great engagement in the startup world andthe way to predict that turn is you have to do every thing that youcan, and that means doing investment, that means doing partnership, that meanslooking at launching your own efforts and that might even mean acquisition and finding companiesthat you can bring into your halls as well. Love it. I justoccurred to me, as you said, predicting the turn again for you.What is the turn? Yeah, so the turn is the moment when businesschanges. So the analogy I play off of is if you play poker,the turn is that fourth card that comes out and if you're in the gameat the fourth card coming down, you think you have a chance to win. And the thing where I watching right now in the world of business isthere's some people sitting around the table that don't realize they're actually playing a differentgame than they originally sat down with. And so the turn is that momentin business and in the game of business where things change and you need tobe anticipating what that change is going to be. It's a great analogy.I'm glad I asked. So, shifting it just a little bit, youknow, I've I've heard and observed that that VC's are giving a higher multipletwo companies with low churn rates and, of course, higher tension rates,and there are clear customer experience implications there. Is this something you've observed and areyou doing any advising around what you know smaller, younger companies can doout of the gate to be successful and get and get better multiples down theroad? Yeah, so, I mean the game of multiples is always aninteresting evolving one in the world of venture because it flows someone in line withthe public markets that as multiples change and different metrics matter more or less.You see that constant evolution. So what...

I always encourage companies is you needto pay attention to your matrics, be super focus on your matrics, butyou should be doing everything about building a great business, not building a businessbased on what multiple you help you're going to get, because we're not goingto be in control of that. You know, next year, when ifthe world of MARTEC suddenly becomes unattractive on Wall Street, doesn't matter what youdid with turn rates or anything else, you're going to see your metrics blowup. You know, just ask any of the poor ad tech companies thatwent public three or four years ago how much they they were out of theircontrol in that. But with all of that, that's what our job ismarketers, is to figure out how to make the best metrics possible for ourbusiness and to really be driving, to put ourselves in the driver's seat,because the the single biggest thing that will influence, you know, later stageinvestment valuations or anything else, is not needing venture capital if you don't needthe money because you've created a business that has great metrics and maybe even,as hit profitability because of those great metrics, if you don't need the money,everyone's going to want to give you the money, right and that's ourjob to kind of put yourself in those controls. So that's exactly why I'vebeen doing. You mentioned the title Strategic Consultant. The work I've been doingsince live it, leaving WPP and rockfish is what I call being a strategicmarketing coach. So I'm not doing consulting in it. What I'm doing isexecutive coaching in terms of how can marketers positions themselves the best way within anorganization, how to mentor and Coach and help you get there faster, becausemarketing is a thing that anybody can figure it out. It's not something thatrequires a PhD, but it requires your tenzero hours of practice, and whatI'm trying to help marketers do is get their tenzero hours of practice a littlebit quicker by stealing some of the hours that I've had at the plate.Love it, since I have you here, since I am a marketer and wehave a lot of marketers listening as well. What are one or twoor three common things that you see in that coaching? Opportunities for growth orcommon errors or whatever like? What are what are a couple things that youtend to speak too frequently in these engagements? Yeah, so I think the themost common thing is what starts with talent, and it's amazing how oftenit comes down to that. That great marketers hire other great marketers, andwhere I've seen marketing organizations that have not been realizing their potential is generally wherethe marketing leader was. If they were, they were hiring below their level.And why mean by that was they were maybe not comfortable with something andinstead of hiring an a talent that would show how their weakness and expose theirweakness, they hired a B or a...

...c player that was maybe at parodywith their weakness. And I don't think anybody does it maliciously or intentionally,but almost every single time I've seen a weakness in a mark a marketing team, it comes down to that. And on the flip side, those organizationsthey're great is when a marketer realizes you can't do everything and a great marketeris probably only actually going to be great in two or three areas at bestand weak in a lot more than that. And the great marketing teams are theones where the marketing leader is comfortable enough with their own skin that theysay, I am great at this and I'm going to hire somebody better thanme in this, this and this area, and what ends up happening is theentire team ends up elevating in a great place, so that in prettymuch every company I work with, the ones that aren't hitting on all cylinders, that is the common cause in ninety eight percent of the situations. SoI always start with that one. The similar one to that is I thinka few you're of thinking you have to build everything yourself. There is areal value of tapping into expertise externally and using that to your advantage, becauseyou get credit for success. You don't get credit for doing the work yourself. But I think a lot of marketers we feel like we have to getcredit for doing the work ourselves. So if you can go pull in ademand an agency to help you for four or five months that get your foundationbuilt built, get your marketing TAC in a great place, do it,take advantage of it. Don't spend the time to hire that person, bringthem on on board. Them like, just go off and do it,and that's something that I think we're afraid of sometimes. To do, butwe don't have time. As a startup, your most valuable thing is executing,executing quickly, to bring an experts to help you higher great things whenyou can, but bring in partners help you get things done faster as well. And then I think the final thing that marketers kind of make a mistakeis in not building up, up, building up enough credibility with their peersand other functions. They put their head down and say I have X,Y Z to accomplish in marketing and I'm going to go off and go doit. But what you actually first need to do is figure out where canmarketing help your peers across loss the organization to do their job even better.So sit down with your peer over and sales, with your CEO, withcustomer service, go across that board and how can you help them? Becauseif you have that give first mentality, that's going to paste maximum dividends foryou later on down the road. Yeah, such great advice. They're all threeof those were fantastic. That last... is really something I'm trying toexplore here on the show, because customer experiences delivered in part by all thepeople you mentioned, and so in the customer looks different at different points basedon what seat ear and in the organization, and so the more holistic view youcan give yourself as a marketer and the more you can share your ownunderstanding and point of view with other people at other touch points, I think, the better off we're all going to be. The other interesting thing theretoo is bridging one and two together. The ability to hire that outside resourceor that outside talent or that outside service is going to be much easier whenyou have someone who is more expert in that topic area, you know,to your point of like hiring to complement your weaknesses as opposed to, youknow, hiring poorly to protect your strengths or protect your ego or, youknow, all those other things that we're not consciously doing what we're doing.We're going to be able to contract, probably contract and negotiate and evaluate thatwork in that partnership with a third party more effectively if you have someone who'smore expert in that topic area. Yeah, without doubt. So at bombomb herewe are bootstrapped. You know, we took some friends and family moneyearly on. We've been in and out of a couple debt deals. Butyou know, pretty much that some of the primary owners of the company arein the business every single day working here. Talk a little bit for people thatare that are at a point. You know, because we've looked at. We've looked at obviously all the opportunities are CEOS. Phone rings regularly andgets emails on, solicited and solicited, about opportunities. Talk about the kindof the pros and cons in the various like big buckets. For someone thatisn't super familiar with ways to fund an operation and get it, get abusiness to a healthy point, what are some pros and kinds of different waysto go? Yes, I think it really does depend on the company,what your goals are and what you're looking to accomplish. The only reason toever look at funding and whether it's fundings, venture capital, friends and family,debt rounds, any of the different options out there, funding should beabout helping you accomplish milestones and that needs to be the goal of any timeyou ever take money, because you know, taking money it's like getting a mortgageon your house and we never go brag about how big of a mortgagewe got when we purchase a house. Yet a lot of times we goraise money and we want to go brag about how much money we raise,and that's the wrong thing to be doing. So whenever you approach any sort offunding, it should because this helped me do a milestone, quicker,faster, better, etc. And then know that any of those models offunding will all call it come with different things that they dictate from you.You know, if you take a line of credit or venture debt, well, that's something that has to be steadily repaid, and so you better havea consistent flow of cash that's coming in to be able to do that,because if it takes you a little bit of extra to get your product outor something else, well, you still got to start paying back the intereston that debt, whether you like it or not. On the flip side, you look at venture capital, it's...

...a little bit more patient, butit's only patient for so long because venture funds have to be usually they're raisinga ten year venture fund, so they need you to repay that at somepoint as well, and there will be pressures that come into that, etc. So with all of them it's just being cognizant. What do you wantto do as Your Business? And then what are the things that will happenwith those different sources, based on your goals. What's going to be thebest way to go off in to do it, though? Final thing I'llsay on that is that realize that all money isn't created equal either. Ithink the biggest mistake I see from startups in the law cases is when theydo make the decision to go raise money, and lest a raise, I meanusually venture capital or private equity, they are optimizing based on valuations,and optimizing on valuation is the exact wrong thing to do. What you shouldbe doing is optimizing about the people that will be around the table and whowill help you be successful to do that. So find the the smartest people youcan and raise money from them, because hopefully what you want is thosethat can help you do your business better. Such good advice. I absolutely lovewhat you offered there. The money is a means to an end.You need to be clear on the end, and in this case it's achieving anothermilestone or two. And I would go out on a limb to say, because I've not been in that conversation before, but I'd go out ona limb to say your clarity on the answers to those questions of what areyou trying to get done here are going to be questions you need to answeranyways. You should be culiar on that regardless. And then the final offeringthere is that it's all about relationships and fit. I would say that aculture match is probably critical. They're like again, more important than the multipleis is the kind of the culture match, who's there? What additional intangible valueare you can get out of it besides just the financial or transactional aspectof it? Exactly good, and so I'll just use that to roll rightinto to the question I always like to ask here as we wrap up,because relationships are our number one core value. Can you think or mention someone who'shad a positive impact on your life or your career and give a mentionto a company that you think is doing customer experience and and in this casebranding? I might have just been redundant. There do doing that really well.Yeah, so the you know, the first one I'd kind of sayfrom a thank you standpoint in somebody that's been a big impact is a womannamed Wendy Lee. And when Ndy is she was on the board of Directorsor is on the board of directors for Text Stars, but we actually metwhen she is the CEO of gets satisfaction, which was a great company in thethe customer experience space back late to thousands, and when I was thinkingabout leaving PNG, Wendy was one of the people that I first sat downwith and said here's what I'm thinking about, here's why I want accomplish and shegave me amazing advice that I've given to countless people after me, whichwas, you know, think about where... want to go in life andgo one degree closer every time you make a move. And she said everytime I've seen somebody fall on their face, it's because they're trying to jump toMa degrees over and that's very tough to do. And so that's beenamazing advice for me and it's something that I've shared a lot and I've seenWendy share a lot because she then, after gets as faction, actually camehere to Cincinnati for the last few years to be our CEO for cent reviews, a great organization that we had here in town that's doing really kind offun things making impact. And then, you know, to your question aboutwho's doing it doing it right I'll actually bring back the example I've shared earlier, which is I do think terminus is one that, if you haven't studiedit as a Betab marketer and as a concustomer experience professional, it's one youneed to dive into. And the reason I think it's interesting is there's amantro, especially with so much of Silicon Valley being a driver of the startupworld, that you here the well, you need the hacker, the Hustlerand the designer as that Holy Trinity for the Startup World. And what wasfascinating with terminus is that Sangrum was one of the CO founders as the chiefmarketing officer, and having a marketer as that founding team member, especially fora company that was going to be selling to marketers, you saw from dayone they built the customer into the heart and soul of what they were doingand there's so much inspiration of how can you do that from day one thatjust will pay dividends for a long, long time. It's outstanding. Ireally love the e double down on that and look forward to sharing that feedbackwith him too. I'm sure he'll appreciate that. Can you give people afew ways anyone wants to go deeper learn more about the the various projects thatyou're involved in. Check out the PODCAST, check out the book. What aresome ways that people can follow up with you? Yeah, so afew different ways. One is pretty much any social thing you can think of. I'm at Dave knocks, so twitter linkedin. Go go down the list. All there. So just at Dave Knox all one word. And thenpredicting the turncom is my website that you can find all kinds of information,whether it's about a link to the book, to my podcast, to the workI do actually as a professional speaker with conferences and corporates or just whatI'm doing from an Executive Marketing Coaching area. So any of those are a greatplace and always happy take an email at day of at predicting the turncom. Excellent. I hope people take you up on that really, really greatadvice. You've seen a lot of stuff. You obviously have a very intelligent,informed perspective and I love the you continue to explore it through the podcastmedium as well. If you want to subscribe to predicting the turn or tothe customer experience podcast, you can find either of them in apple podcasts itunesin in all the other spots where you normally listen to a podcast. Thanksso much for this episode. Thank you, date for your time. Thank you, thank you for everything you're doing with bombomb as well. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These...

...are just some of the benefits ofadding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do,which is a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize YourBusiness. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more inorder today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening tothe customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can dotoday is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learningthe latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player,or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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