The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

30. Avoiding Branding and Marketing Mistakes While Driving Fast w/ Dave Knox

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

No one can tell the future.

And if anyone claims they can, walk away… slowly.

Yet, there are ways to anticipate some of the biggest turns your business will encounter.

Brand builder, digital transformer, venture investor, and startup advisor, Dave Knox, opens up about three major mistakes he sees startup marketers make. As an independent strategic advisor and host of the Predicting the Turn podcast, Dave has seen the entire gamut of startup mistakes, big business blunders, and enterprise slip-ups.

He has turned all of his experiences into a career of helping businesses anticipate market changes. In this episode, we cover the struggles Fortune 500s are experiencing, holistic customer experience, and more.

The great marketing teams are the ones where the marketing leader is comfortable enough with their own skin that they say, I am great at this and I'm going to hire somebody better than me in this this and this area, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey, welcome back to the customer experience podcast. You're going to love this episode. Our guest works at the intersection of brands and technology, with a focus on startups, seed funding and venture capital. He's currently a strategic advisor at predicting the turn. He's also a podcast host of the same name predicting the turn. He's a managing partner at Vine Street ventures cofounder at the brandery, which is a tech accelrator. I look forward to learn a little bit more about that. And also interesting here is that he spent seven years of CMO at rockfish. This is a company that's owned by WPPA, of formerly known as a global advertising and PR agency, but now they call themselves a creative transformation agency. I can see that becoming a conversation theme here today. And so our guest today, Dave Knox. Welcome to the customer experience podcast a thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited about this. I think there's obviously a lot going on with with brands, technology, disruption, innovation, and you're kind of in an interesting seat around all of that, especially over the past decade. So I look forward to getting into it. But I want to start where I always start, which is your definition or your thoughts on customer experience. Yeah, so customer experience, you're being a brand guy by training. I started my career proctor and gamble back in the day, and I think of customer experience is being everything that's the front of the House, anything that touches that consumer and can influence how they think about your company, your brand, your business. So that's everything from the essence of the brand design to marketing, to sales to how you show up at retail. That customer experience is every single one of those touch points rolled together. That's awesome. You've given me language that I haven't heard on this question before. I I've asked it dozens of times. It's this clear delineation between front of House and back of House, back of House being, of course, two things that most people don't see, in front of House being, to your point, everything that everyone experiences. So I love that. So go into your branding background. You know I've had an I've had a couple branding experts on the show and and I put you a probably adjacent to, if not in that category. I've let you decide how you feel about that. But there seems to be a fair amount of overlap from time to time in talking about out customer experience and brand experience or branding. What do...

...you see the relationship there as being in a where they similar, where they different? You have a line between those two, or do you see them as approximately synonymous? Yeah, I think frankly they're. They're similar in there, if not completely overlapping. Customer Experience is definitely an emerging field that the language has really only come about, I'd say, in the last decade. You've seen it in the public eye. It wasn't something that when we were getting the training and branding back in the day was ever really talked about is its own thing. It was just the essence of one of the things that you had to do. But with the rise of bet to be marketing and the right of direct to consumer efforts, I think that's what's given rise to the language of customer experience. But if you're not doing branding the right way, if you're not thinking about it as part of your core efforts, there what is the essence of good branding to you? What what is its outcome? If someone is committed to brand building, what are the obvious consequences of that? Yeah, so the essence of I think what makes great branding is evoking emotion, because that's what a brand comes down to. Is it sparking something in a person when they see what you are here, what you are, when they hear your brand, do they know something and does it evoke an emotion with it? And there's a wide range of what that emotion can be. But great branding has thought about that, has dictated it and it's been and planned across the board, and it's where it goes back to its being across every touch point. Think about a company like Zappos. You can think a lot of things with it, but as sence, it's going to be a great experience. That's probably what you evoke and that feeling of happiness that goes into it. Love it. The feeling part of it is often something that someone will offer in the definition of customer experience, and so to wrap both of those together that they are very, very overlapping. This is just a personal curiosity for me. I mean coming up in PNG, I imagine you got essentially the equivalent of an MBA in your in your onboarding and training. What was that experience like for you and how did that shape your career? Yeah, it's funny you use those those words of like an MBA, because for me that's exactly what it was. PNG, especially in brain management. It's kind of unique place in that probably about ninety two hundred and ninety five percent of my colleagues as assistant brain managers were coming from an MBA program and coming from usually a top tier whether it was a booth or a Harvard or something of that nature. I was a twenty two year old kid coming from a public university with, you know, just a bachelor of science and business. So for me it really really was the MBA because one of the things that's amazing of a fortune five hundred company that invests in their people is you get that training. You'll probably every week for my first two, if not three years, there was a training that I was going to that would either be a couple of hours or full day every time. When you...

...got promoted, you went to Assistant Brand Manager College, then brand manager college and so forth and so on. And you know, those were week long of all day events that they flew everyone in from across the globe that was in your class and at your level. So for me it really was that MBA, that kind of training. But I think where it was differed from a just a classroom MBA, which you combine that learning with the fact at the same time you were putting those principles to work the next day. You weren't just talking in theory and case studies, but you were owning a twenty million dollar marketing budget the next day and doing something with it. So that's why, you know, I do a lot of talks at college campuses and especially when I talk to entrepreneur students. They want to go start a business right away at twenty two and all encourage a lot of them. Of Go find a place that you can get that training first, because me at twenty two made a lot of mistakes and it was a lot better to be making those mistakes on the the budget of a several billion dollar company then my tiny budget if I was an entrepreneur. Right. You know, your error in that context is a rounding error versus an error. With you is that you know, a twenty two year old, maybe start up founder, could be fatal. Yes, that's exactly it, and it's one of my first bosses. He said the great thing he goes, you know, just remember that we've created a system that has a safety belt on you. So drive the far car as fast as you can and we know that we've got the seat belt. You'll be safe. I love it. It's it's such good permission. It sounds like there's a really good culture there. You like when I think about are you familiar with the service profit chain? Loosely, but not intimately, it sounds it basically the premises. You know, so many people focus on the far end of revenue and Growth, but these are outcomes of a whole series of events that walk back through the customer all the way back to employees and so the premises that when you invest in tiring, onboarding, training, developing and you produce a good employee experience, that everything else falls out from there as a consequence. So focus there. It sounds like that was a part of your experience there at PG. I'm glad I ask. That's great and it actually leads me into a pair of questions that I that I had prepared, which I'll ask. The first what's happening at the intersection of brand and technology from a start up standpoint, and then the and then the follow up is what's happening there from, you know, maybe a fortune five hundred or just a generally a medium or large corporation standpoint, like at that intersection of Brandon Technology, were kind of live and work and talk and advise and probably study and publish, etc. Talk about that intersection from kind of a startup point of view. Yes, I think one of the things that's really emerged is the fact that you have that prominence of branding and marketing coming into play. One of my good friends is a guy named Tim Copp who was the CMO for exact target and when Tim joined is the CMO there in two thousand and seven. He kind of had the premise that most of...

...the Bob World wasn't practicing brand marketing. They had demand generation and they had traditional be to be marketing, but really this essence of bringing brand into the world of technology was something that not many people had done, and so that's something he really focused on and I think he was a pioneer in a lot of ways, because fast forward ten years later and I think actually some of the most exciting marketing that's going on and the most exciting brand work is actually being led from the bet tob world instead of the beat Toca world, and ironically, the beat to sea world is becoming more about demand Jen and performance marketing, which used to be the premise of the beat to be back in the day. So you've got this blending where I think people are switching in between both of those worlds kind of interchangeably as a result. Well, he kind of answered both questions in one there, and it sounds like there's just a little bit of a flip flop there, which is really interesting. Why do you think that is the case? Added just a couple ideas that came to mind as you were talking about it. But you know why do you think that's the case that BTC has, to your view, maybe historically been less demand jen based and moving in that direction, and startups and tech being less brand focused and started moving that way, or some be tob rather? Yes, I think the Bet Toc one is a really simple one, which is the rise of direct to consumer brands has changed the business that these guys have to be in because, you know, you look at a Peng Uni lever and even a Ford Motor Company, we called them the biggest consumer marketing companies out there, but they actually didn't sell directly to the consumer. You know, the auto guys had to go through their dealerships, the pegs in the UNI levers had to go through Walmart and target. They never actually own the end customer and that's why you would hear in those worlds they talked about a customer in a consumer Walmart was the customer and the consumer was the person that was buying the product. So that's one change that's played out, I think, in a lot of cases. And then on the flip side, the way the reason for be to be is the I'd say infusion of technology into the lives of be to be has caused a Cole, that has taken place, and why I mean by that is think back two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, as you know, the iphone was just coming out. It used to be that, you know, the enterprise in the IT guys, they dictate what technology you got issued. You get your blackberry, get your laptop, and then you had all these people that had two phones. They had their work black berry and they had their personal iphone, and the iphone got started dragging in and know, more and more into be to be. And what end up happening is the consumer and customer experience that you had with an iphone, with facebook, with every piece of technology,...

...you would then walk into the workplace and expect that same level of high end experience and that's really, I think, driven that behavior. That in turn caused all the be tob marketers have to elevate their game in the same way. I love it's a really interesting pushing pull there. You mentioned earlier that some of the more exciting and interesting marketing is being done in the be tob space. What are a couple things that come to mind there? Yeah, so you know, one of the ones, and I know you have a favorite question around who's doing customer experience right. So one of the companies I love is terminus, and terminus is one of these great startups that's really redefining this world of account based marketing, and what I love is it's a twofold thing one. I just think account based marketing as a whole is one of the more interesting trends we're seeing in the world of marketing today, and the orchestration and Co ordination of a great abm campaign requires you to just be a great strategic marketer. It's about an art and science that combines so one. I love the fact that they're helping rise. You give rise to that, but they're also practicing what they preach and you look at the work that they're doing with flip my funnel, creating the community around that, the podcast that creates the content with it, all of those efforts together are just truly truly top notch across the board. Yeah, I love it. It's a great example. Sand Rum Vajeri leads it as as kind of the face in the personality and in the podcast host all off and a speaker as well, and really coming from a place of value and education and building a community around the concept or the problem of contemporary be to be marketing today rather than being pitching software, pitching software, pitching software, pitching software. It's so funny the way one just naturally rolls out into the other and we're both here. Several might team members are both consumers of the stuff that they put out in as well as being subscribers to the software as well. I love that you took it. there. Anything else you want to share about, like the large corporate standpoint, like what are some of the challenges that they're facing? I think the one big thing that I that I took note of already, is that the market has changed on them and that they are now direct to consumers a consequence of or more often than before. I obviously they still use retail, but anything else going on for like someone that's in a large brand or a large company, that should be on the radar. Yes, so one of my favorite pieces of content out there is something that was done by Stanford University, actually, that Aaron Levy, who's one of the the founder of box. He did a class along with another colleague. It was called the industrialist dilemma and you can go watch all the videos. They put all the content up online for it, and what I love about that whole premise is it plays off, obviously, the innovator dilemma and talking about the struggle for...

...lab the fortune five hundred today is that the very things that gave them their competi advantage over the last few decades are now a liability for them. In a world of six sigma, you got your factories to be at this perfect balance line of profitability and you had all these other things that went to perfection. But when the business that you're in changes, what do you actually do with those historical things that once gave you an advantage? You you take what's happened in the world of shaving. It wasn't the Galette den See Dollar Shave Club coming. It was they couldn't go in and tell Walmart, Hey, by the way, we're going to launch something that competes directly against you. So those relationships become a liability. And what do you do with it? And that's kind of at the heart of what I wrote about in predicting the turn and the work I'm doing with the podcast is how can you one address that fact, realize it's happening and then do something about it? How can you go practice and learn from this world of innovation and then bringing them, bring that learning back into your hallways? And for me it's practicing this concept of market intelligence that gives you the ability to see the how and when the future of your industry is going to happen by being externally focused and learning from what's happening with venture and with startups and everything else across the board. What are a couple ways that someone gets so? So it's one thing to see these trends and to identify them recognize your own liabilities. How are how is like, you know, a thousand person or Tenzero or even hundred thousand person organization? How do they kind of make that Turner? They starting essentially doing startups inside the larger organization, giving them freedom to explore and learn in a practical way. Like what have you seen or heard around that? Yeah, practical standpoint. Yeah, I mean there's dozens of models that you can look at and not one is ever going to be the right thing. You need to do a little bit of all of them, but a few that I personally really love. So one is corporate venture capital. One of the reasons I love corporate DC is I think a lot of people try and get incorporate DC for the same reason a VC gets into it, which is the financial returns. That's actually the least valuable thing for corporate DC. You need to do it, you need to make a good return on capital and everything else. But the amazing thing about a venture capitalist is every single day they have dozens of people walking into their doors and telling them where the future is headed, and a great investor is able to see all those things have their own thesis of where they think the world is headed. But combine that with breadth and depth and pattern recognition of I'm hearing this, this and this. I think that means something to my business and a corporate VC is a great way...

...to be able to do that, to bring that in, to learn from it and not just look for deal flow and good investments, but actually uses as market intelligence for Your Business. So that's one thing that I love that I think a lot of you know. Nearly every corporation should have their an effort in that space. The second one is involvement in the startup community, because corporate VC, while supervaluable, you only will catch a company at that moment that they're looking for investment. So you might limit yourself if you're only doing that. So that's why you need to get involved with a lot of different versions of startup engagement, and that startup engagement can be partnerships, it can be accelerators, it can be any of those elements. But the mistake most corporations make is they'd pick one version of startup engagement and that doesn't give them anough breath. You can't throw your name on a corporate accelerator and said I'm seeing ten startups, so I've done everything. You need to get out there and do a lot more. So I'm at least of the belief that great engagement in the startup world and the way to predict that turn is you have to do every thing that you can, and that means doing investment, that means doing partnership, that means looking at launching your own efforts and that might even mean acquisition and finding companies that you can bring into your halls as well. Love it. I just occurred to me, as you said, predicting the turn again for you. What is the turn? Yeah, so the turn is the moment when business changes. So the analogy I play off of is if you play poker, the turn is that fourth card that comes out and if you're in the game at the fourth card coming down, you think you have a chance to win. And the thing where I watching right now in the world of business is there's some people sitting around the table that don't realize they're actually playing a different game than they originally sat down with. And so the turn is that moment in business and in the game of business where things change and you need to be anticipating what that change is going to be. It's a great analogy. I'm glad I asked. So, shifting it just a little bit, you know, I've I've heard and observed that that VC's are giving a higher multiple two companies with low churn rates and, of course, higher tension rates, and there are clear customer experience implications there. Is this something you've observed and are you doing any advising around what you know smaller, younger companies can do out of the gate to be successful and get and get better multiples down the road? Yeah, so, I mean the game of multiples is always an interesting evolving one in the world of venture because it flows someone in line with the public markets that as multiples change and different metrics matter more or less. You see that constant evolution. So what...

I always encourage companies is you need to pay attention to your matrics, be super focus on your matrics, but you should be doing everything about building a great business, not building a business based on what multiple you help you're going to get, because we're not going to be in control of that. You know, next year, when if the world of MARTEC suddenly becomes unattractive on Wall Street, doesn't matter what you did with turn rates or anything else, you're going to see your metrics blow up. You know, just ask any of the poor ad tech companies that went public three or four years ago how much they they were out of their control in that. But with all of that, that's what our job is marketers, is to figure out how to make the best metrics possible for our business and to really be driving, to put ourselves in the driver's seat, because the the single biggest thing that will influence, you know, later stage investment valuations or anything else, is not needing venture capital if you don't need the money because you've created a business that has great metrics and maybe even, as hit profitability because of those great metrics, if you don't need the money, everyone's going to want to give you the money, right and that's our job to kind of put yourself in those controls. So that's exactly why I've been doing. You mentioned the title Strategic Consultant. The work I've been doing since live it, leaving WPP and rockfish is what I call being a strategic marketing coach. So I'm not doing consulting in it. What I'm doing is executive coaching in terms of how can marketers positions themselves the best way within an organization, how to mentor and Coach and help you get there faster, because marketing is a thing that anybody can figure it out. It's not something that requires a PhD, but it requires your tenzero hours of practice, and what I'm trying to help marketers do is get their tenzero hours of practice a little bit quicker by stealing some of the hours that I've had at the plate. Love it, since I have you here, since I am a marketer and we have a lot of marketers listening as well. What are one or two or three common things that you see in that coaching? Opportunities for growth or common errors or whatever like? What are what are a couple things that you tend to speak too frequently in these engagements? Yeah, so I think the the most common thing is what starts with talent, and it's amazing how often it comes down to that. That great marketers hire other great marketers, and where I've seen marketing organizations that have not been realizing their potential is generally where the marketing leader was. If they were, they were hiring below their level. And why mean by that was they were maybe not comfortable with something and instead of hiring an a talent that would show how their weakness and expose their weakness, they hired a B or a...

...c player that was maybe at parody with their weakness. And I don't think anybody does it maliciously or intentionally, but almost every single time I've seen a weakness in a mark a marketing team, it comes down to that. And on the flip side, those organizations they're great is when a marketer realizes you can't do everything and a great marketer is probably only actually going to be great in two or three areas at best and weak in a lot more than that. And the great marketing teams are the ones where the marketing leader is comfortable enough with their own skin that they say, I am great at this and I'm going to hire somebody better than me in this, this and this area, and what ends up happening is the entire team ends up elevating in a great place, so that in pretty much every company I work with, the ones that aren't hitting on all cylinders, that is the common cause in ninety eight percent of the situations. So I always start with that one. The similar one to that is I think a few you're of thinking you have to build everything yourself. There is a real value of tapping into expertise externally and using that to your advantage, because you get credit for success. You don't get credit for doing the work yourself. But I think a lot of marketers we feel like we have to get credit for doing the work ourselves. So if you can go pull in a demand an agency to help you for four or five months that get your foundation built built, get your marketing TAC in a great place, do it, take advantage of it. Don't spend the time to hire that person, bring them on on board. Them like, just go off and do it, and that's something that I think we're afraid of sometimes. To do, but we don't have time. As a startup, your most valuable thing is executing, executing quickly, to bring an experts to help you higher great things when you can, but bring in partners help you get things done faster as well. And then I think the final thing that marketers kind of make a mistake is in not building up, up, building up enough credibility with their peers and other functions. They put their head down and say I have X, Y Z to accomplish in marketing and I'm going to go off and go do it. But what you actually first need to do is figure out where can marketing help your peers across loss the organization to do their job even better. So sit down with your peer over and sales, with your CEO, with customer service, go across that board and how can you help them? Because if you have that give first mentality, that's going to paste maximum dividends for you later on down the road. Yeah, such great advice. They're all three of those were fantastic. That last...

...one is really something I'm trying to explore here on the show, because customer experiences delivered in part by all the people you mentioned, and so in the customer looks different at different points based on what seat ear and in the organization, and so the more holistic view you can give yourself as a marketer and the more you can share your own understanding and point of view with other people at other touch points, I think, the better off we're all going to be. The other interesting thing there too is bridging one and two together. The ability to hire that outside resource or that outside talent or that outside service is going to be much easier when you have someone who is more expert in that topic area, you know, to your point of like hiring to complement your weaknesses as opposed to, you know, hiring poorly to protect your strengths or protect your ego or, you know, all those other things that we're not consciously doing what we're doing. We're going to be able to contract, probably contract and negotiate and evaluate that work in that partnership with a third party more effectively if you have someone who's more expert in that topic area. Yeah, without doubt. So at bombomb here we are bootstrapped. You know, we took some friends and family money early on. We've been in and out of a couple debt deals. But you know, pretty much that some of the primary owners of the company are in the business every single day working here. Talk a little bit for people that are that are at a point. You know, because we've looked at. We've looked at obviously all the opportunities are CEOS. Phone rings regularly and gets emails on, solicited and solicited, about opportunities. Talk about the kind of the pros and cons in the various like big buckets. For someone that isn't super familiar with ways to fund an operation and get it, get a business to a healthy point, what are some pros and kinds of different ways to go? Yes, I think it really does depend on the company, what your goals are and what you're looking to accomplish. The only reason to ever look at funding and whether it's fundings, venture capital, friends and family, debt rounds, any of the different options out there, funding should be about helping you accomplish milestones and that needs to be the goal of any time you ever take money, because you know, taking money it's like getting a mortgage on your house and we never go brag about how big of a mortgage we got when we purchase a house. Yet a lot of times we go raise money and we want to go brag about how much money we raise, and that's the wrong thing to be doing. So whenever you approach any sort of funding, it should because this helped me do a milestone, quicker, faster, better, etc. And then know that any of those models of funding will all call it come with different things that they dictate from you. You know, if you take a line of credit or venture debt, well, that's something that has to be steadily repaid, and so you better have a consistent flow of cash that's coming in to be able to do that, because if it takes you a little bit of extra to get your product out or something else, well, you still got to start paying back the interest on that debt, whether you like it or not. On the flip side, you look at venture capital, it's...

...a little bit more patient, but it's only patient for so long because venture funds have to be usually they're raising a ten year venture fund, so they need you to repay that at some point as well, and there will be pressures that come into that, etc. So with all of them it's just being cognizant. What do you want to do as Your Business? And then what are the things that will happen with those different sources, based on your goals. What's going to be the best way to go off in to do it, though? Final thing I'll say on that is that realize that all money isn't created equal either. I think the biggest mistake I see from startups in the law cases is when they do make the decision to go raise money, and lest a raise, I mean usually venture capital or private equity, they are optimizing based on valuations, and optimizing on valuation is the exact wrong thing to do. What you should be doing is optimizing about the people that will be around the table and who will help you be successful to do that. So find the the smartest people you can and raise money from them, because hopefully what you want is those that can help you do your business better. Such good advice. I absolutely love what you offered there. The money is a means to an end. You need to be clear on the end, and in this case it's achieving another milestone or two. And I would go out on a limb to say, because I've not been in that conversation before, but I'd go out on a limb to say your clarity on the answers to those questions of what are you trying to get done here are going to be questions you need to answer anyways. You should be culiar on that regardless. And then the final offering there is that it's all about relationships and fit. I would say that a culture match is probably critical. They're like again, more important than the multiple is is the kind of the culture match, who's there? What additional intangible value are you can get out of it besides just the financial or transactional aspect of it? Exactly good, and so I'll just use that to roll right into to the question I always like to ask here as we wrap up, because relationships are our number one core value. Can you think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or your career and give a mention to a company that you think is doing customer experience and and in this case branding? I might have just been redundant. There do doing that really well. Yeah, so the you know, the first one I'd kind of say from a thank you standpoint in somebody that's been a big impact is a woman named Wendy Lee. And when Ndy is she was on the board of Directors or is on the board of directors for Text Stars, but we actually met when she is the CEO of gets satisfaction, which was a great company in the the customer experience space back late to thousands, and when I was thinking about leaving PNG, Wendy was one of the people that I first sat down with and said here's what I'm thinking about, here's why I want accomplish and she gave me amazing advice that I've given to countless people after me, which was, you know, think about where...

...you want to go in life and go one degree closer every time you make a move. And she said every time I've seen somebody fall on their face, it's because they're trying to jump to Ma degrees over and that's very tough to do. And so that's been amazing advice for me and it's something that I've shared a lot and I've seen Wendy share a lot because she then, after gets as faction, actually came here to Cincinnati for the last few years to be our CEO for cent reviews, a great organization that we had here in town that's doing really kind of fun things making impact. And then, you know, to your question about who's doing it doing it right I'll actually bring back the example I've shared earlier, which is I do think terminus is one that, if you haven't studied it as a Betab marketer and as a concustomer experience professional, it's one you need to dive into. And the reason I think it's interesting is there's a mantro, especially with so much of Silicon Valley being a driver of the startup world, that you here the well, you need the hacker, the Hustler and the designer as that Holy Trinity for the Startup World. And what was fascinating with terminus is that Sangrum was one of the CO founders as the chief marketing officer, and having a marketer as that founding team member, especially for a company that was going to be selling to marketers, you saw from day one they built the customer into the heart and soul of what they were doing and there's so much inspiration of how can you do that from day one that just will pay dividends for a long, long time. It's outstanding. I really love the e double down on that and look forward to sharing that feedback with him too. I'm sure he'll appreciate that. Can you give people a few ways anyone wants to go deeper learn more about the the various projects that you're involved in. Check out the PODCAST, check out the book. What are some ways that people can follow up with you? Yeah, so a few different ways. One is pretty much any social thing you can think of. I'm at Dave knocks, so twitter linkedin. Go go down the list. All there. So just at Dave Knox all one word. And then predicting the turncom is my website that you can find all kinds of information, whether it's about a link to the book, to my podcast, to the work I do actually as a professional speaker with conferences and corporates or just what I'm doing from an Executive Marketing Coaching area. So any of those are a great place and always happy take an email at day of at predicting the turncom. Excellent. I hope people take you up on that really, really great advice. You've seen a lot of stuff. You obviously have a very intelligent, informed perspective and I love the you continue to explore it through the podcast medium as well. If you want to subscribe to predicting the turn or to the customer experience podcast, you can find either of them in apple podcasts itunes in in all the other spots where you normally listen to a podcast. Thanks so much for this episode. Thank you, date for your time. Thank you, thank you for everything you're doing with bombomb as well. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These...

...are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do, which is a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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