The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

32. Meeting Customers’ Evolving Needs with a Customer Experience Team w/ Luke Owen


You only think you’ve built a great relationship with a client. didn’t check up on how their goals are evolving.

Churn, churn, churn.

I got to talk to Luke Owen, Director of Customer Experience at Formstack, about what it means to have the words “customer experience” in his job title.

“For me, customer experience is the heart and soul of an organization that supersedes that relationship with the client,” Luke said.


Customer experience is sort of the partner soul of an organization that supersedes that relationship with the client. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey, welcome back to the customer experience podcast. If you've been with us for a while. First, thank you, and second you may have noticed that we've only had a few folks on the show with customer experience in his or her title, and they tend to be advisors, consultant speakers in that type. So today we have a gentleman who has customer experience in his title. Will talk a little bit about that in particular. He spent more than four years and hub spot and account management. Spent four and a half years as director of customer success at Bedrock data. He's currently the director of customer experience at Form Stack Luke. Oh, and welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, Athan. Wet to beer. Good, really, really looking forward to this. I want to get into kind of the title, the role, the structure a little bit, and I think they're going to be some really fun nuances to get into there. But we'll start where we always start, with your definition or your thoughts or characteristics you'd identify in customer experience as a concept. Sure. So, for me customer experience is sort of the heart and soul of an organization that supersedes that relationship with the client, right and keeps everybody aware of how strong that is or how not strong that is, you know, so that we can put in the right playbooks to to make that relationship at even stronger. So it's kind of like this holistic view, right. It's not like one team per se. It's sort of a sort of an organization that has lots of moving parts, lots of different functions within it. Awesome, you've done something that I have not heard, I don't think, in asking that question, which is kind of personified in like that in the heart and soul piece, and and you tapped into something that is probably one of the most challenging things about customer experience, which is how do we get everyone on board. How do we create a holistic experience across the board and how do we make sure that all of these different I forget the term you used, but you know, department's team, silos, functions, parts of the organization are all operating together? Just for context, before we go a lot farther, what is form stack do for folks that might not be familiar? You know, what are you doing for customers? Sure, so form stack. Little background. Form Sex actually been around for quite some time. Started around two thousand and six. Is One of the first, you know, sort of no code form applications that you can build stop on your website to start, you know, getting people to fill out your form on your website. Over the...

...past few years it's sort of migrated its platform into being way more for sophisticated right. So all the intake data that you would bring in from your forms can now start to be utilized and sort of a back office where to help smooth operations out within the organization. So lots of companies that find form stact really attractive nowadays. Are, you know, some of the eedu healthcare, you know, a form sex hip, a compliance. So a lot of these companies that operationally have a lot of inefficiencies, if you will, haven't quite gotten into the modern world, but now can through like the very sophisticated form application. So it's really the sort of smoothing the workforce, if you will, operations nice and so it's part of that evolution. Apis where the data can then be put into all the places that various people might need it. Well that it's interesting you bring that up. How I got to form stack was actually through the bed rock data crew, because we got acquired by form STAC earlier this year, and part of the reason they acquired us, you know, certainly we share the same values and the same mission, but they sort of need it this layer, or needed to make this layer more sophisticated, to take that data they're getting from their forms and be able to start moving it around a little bit more efficiently to very systems that some of their customers are are using. Awesome. Love it, and you actually answered a question I was going to follow up with there, which is how did you find them? How did they find you? But that already came out. So for context, what do you do as director of customer experience? I think you know your background is in Account Management and CE US in particular. What's in the title for you and for the organization, and maybe then also kind of how are you structured? How do you report up? Who reports to you? Kind of what does this role mean in a in a functional way? Right, right. So the role itself was was there before me, of course. So customer experience, but I actually I love the way that they've structured it. So what I what I focus on is the support organization and that the success organization, the success team. That didn't quite exist until I got there. There was a one gentleman who was doing some, you know, count management, general success type activities, on boarding and things like that, but wasn't fully developed out in any way. So I'm helping to develop sort of that Customer Success Account Management Component of the experienced team, as well as overseeing the support team that, again, has been there for for many, many, many years. There is another element to the customer experience team that's also very important to this sort of holistic, you know, view I have of what customer experience is we which is a professional services that's actually being developed. I don't oversee that. I've got a colleague that, along with her and me are overseeing sort of this whole customer experience team that comprises, of again, support success. That's me. She runs the... pro services. We have an operations believe it or not, we have a little bit of CX operations that I like to kind of draw I call like our our atmosphere, or protective ozone layer of the CX team. Cool. And so what does opps do in that scenario? Is that like text st AC and data integrity or like, what is it? What is opps in this context? Yeah, it's it is sort of the text St Act Management and primarily for CX, at least at the support level, it's Zendsk. So we use endesk at form stack, and so it's really that team keeping that system as healthy as possible alongside some of the other systems at obviously care customer data, such as sales force. Cool. So when you get acquired, you get this role, you get this title. What are like two or three of the first things you did, like assess the scene, and then, like, what are a couple things that you said? Okay, I'm going to start here, right and then the reason I ask is, you know, so, for example, we have we have a VP of customer success, who oversees the success organization and a support organization, and we have directors of both of those functions and, of course all the probably common rules that fall under those. You were, structures a little bit different, and so if someone is in a situation like ours here at bombomb and they want to move to a situation like you're in, like when you get plugged in as director of customer experience, what does this seem look like and what do you think? Okay, these are the first two or three things I'm going to tackle. So, given the support organization had been there and pretty well established by a couple of folks that have been running the team for about two or three years. One in particular had a strong background with apple retail and so she was really running a tight ship. So I looked at that team and they didn't have a lot to let's say fix if you will, although everything always needs to grow with the team. You know, the company's growing. There's a lot, a lot of these acquisitions, there's a lot of moving parts that certainly need to be to be worked through and work together on, but she's got a pretty good along with another manager recently promoted into the support team, since it's growing. So I was really been focused on the sixth on the customer Success Management Team, since that again didn't quite exist besides just one individual. And that's really where I kind of said, okay, we got to get our processes, we're going to get our how are we working in so alongside sales, you know, some the most part sales had been the primary sort of manager of clients to some extent, and so here comes along this customer success team and it's like, how do we work together and really making sure that we're getting that sort of relationship between sales and seat and customer success as harmonious as possible. You know, they as as you know, if you can't make a good experience in that first ninety days, you're in an uphill battle. So we have to really focus in as much as we possibly can on how those two teams are going to work. He is. That's really where my focus has been, is kind of getting well in hiring the CSMS. Let's be honest, I got in there... guy. We now have five CSM's, so that was mission critical, of course, when we first God and it's just building that team up. Cool. How do you organize your your CSM's is as they're like? Are Are they tiered based on account size? Like when you look to build that team out from scratchin a masking on behalf of someone that needs to do what you just did? You know, what were your thoughts on how to how to hire and arrange those? Yeah, so I'm going to answer it by saying there's a way I want to do it and there's a way we kind of had to do it to some extent because so, again, the background is with form set. They've gone through a bit of a hiring acquisitions free over the last year. So better ack was the fourth or third or fourth acquisition in the last year. So there was a bunch of brands that are now part of the form stack world and the customers that could the ideas that it's customer success oververseas. If you're a form stack customer, if you're a better rock customer, if you're web merge customer, you're a form stack customer and we're going to be a customer success manager for you at some level. So because of that we had to specialize a little bit, you know. So we got two people from the support team that, you know, support always can be a great place to look for customer success managers. Product driven, you know, so they've got a little bit of that relationship driven, you know, mindset, some of that sales acting then can be a great place to kind of find some success managers. And so we brought two folks up from the support team. So one of them just happens to be experienced with one of those brands, so she's focused on that brand as well as bet rock data because of both pretty technical. And then there's the form stack core sort of support reps, so she's focused really on form stack. We did bring one outside enterprise customer success manager who wasn't with in form stact as a way to you know, obviously I'm there as a director but in an additional leader to kind of be there along with this really junior team for the most part. So that was the only outside and she's just focus on enterprise, some of our more marquee clients kind of thing. That's so. So that's kind of specialize right. So it's very targeted in terms of like what you can work with at a technical level. Ideally, what would like to get to is more of its structure at a sort of revenue level. So if you're, you know, paying anywhere from three hundred and ninety nine to, you know, six hundred and ninety nine, you're in the small busin, you know, mid market team or small business team. And then we get to the midmarket and then we get to enterprise and it really doesn't matter which products you have. It's more we're going to tier it in that way. So it's makes it a little bit more you don't have to necessarily think about it at a product level, and I can get a little bit tricky and Harry because then as people buy more products, then you have to constantly be thinking about, oh now I got US sign this out over here to the sea, and then that customer experience this starts to break down. So if you make it more simplistic at a revenue level, likely, you know,...

...customers aren't going to be jumping that often, although you of course want them to expand, but they're going to probably stay within a certain traunch for a little while and have that customer experience sort of stay somewhat, hopefully the same, the same person every time, really important. I love that this idea of being sensitive to, you know, breaking those relationships and starting new ones. You know, the handoff from sales to SS is enough to manage well, you know, and then handing additional handling, additional handoffs beyond that can be tricky. Cool. I it's interesting the situation and I can definitely see you going in the next evolution or kind of the next expansion of the team to go, you know, in the direction that you've described, once you have kind of the brands and product breaks covered a bit and people start to to grow. Let's get a little bit into your philosophy. I mean again, you have a you know, a decade of experience in Account Management and C S, which I guess actually let's start. They're at a conversation with a guy that I work with and we're talking about CS has, in a way just being the new language for account management. Talk a little bit about either or both of customer success or customer experience as kind of new languages or they feel new, especially to someone younger in their career that hasn't seen kind of the old become new again. Talk a little bit about either or both of those terms and kind of what they mean to you from a we've been working on customer success pretty much since we've been running businesses, but we have this language in some practices around to talk about that. Yeah, so I'll give you sort of my background, right is, as you mentioned, or so years at hub spot and I started there in two thousand and ten and when I joined, you know, they had this customer success management sort of team that was building out from the consulting team that they had and I you know, for me I didn't quite know what that meant to some extent, but as I got into the role it became kind of a running joke that we'd always be like, you know, I'm your customer success manager and that's just a fancy way saying your account manager. Right. We we constants in because clients of ours, you know, hot spot had all sorts of different kinds of customers, from mom and pop shops to, you know, various big businesses, and they didn't know what the Hecker Customer Success Manager was. We ended up actually changing the title at hub spot, I want to say maybe two years in when I was here, maybe in the year and a half or something like that, from Customer Success Manager to Account Manager. You said let's stop, let's stop having to say that extra thing, right you guys work out managers and then, funny enough, and I still have my business card phon when we were CSMS and I never got it changed. You know who use business cards, and all those times, and then I left in two thousand and fifteen and we moved back to being called customer success managers. So I think it was kind of like this evolution of the market, just shoving it down businesses sort of I wouldn't say throats, but hey, that customer success manager can essentially mean a dedicated person that helps you with your account over a life period of your which is kind of a again,...'s account manager. So for me, I it's I struggle with it to sometimes because yes, we have customers because as managers the form stack, but to me it's not just one team write the or. You know, if we had a customer success team at form stack, I probably structure it just like I am doing it, with the customer just like they did it and how I'm adopting it a with customer experience that it is sort of this pillar of foundational functions that involved that a ball around account management and on boarding and customer support proservices, right. So it's like those things in another themselves are customer success or customer experience, whatever you want to call cool. Let's get a little bit into philosophy and I'll start with, and I've just got a few of these for you, customer success as a philosophy, not as a function. This gets a little bit back to wholism, but I love you just kind of share your perspective and maybe a couple things you've learned over the past decade around around this. Yeah, I mean, I think to me it's pretty pretty obvious. Right at the end of the day, you have to lead out with the customers. What kind of value are they perceiving right to get out of your solution, or what do they want to get, and really centering all of your conversation from the beginning sale right all the way to the onboarding and throughout the life of that customer and really understanding what are your primary desired outcomes, as they want to call it, what do you want to achieve? And sometimes they don't always know, and it's our job to help guide them to what those might need to be. And if we lead out with that right, not to say, Oh, you know, I have product A, B and C and that's what you know. You woke up one morning saying you need it. We need to really be digging into not this is the product I have for you, but your use case that you have or your desire, you know, outcomes that you have I can help you with and it just so happens these solutions can get you there. And to me that philosophy has to has to be throughout the entire organization. It can't just be this customer success team that's carrying that philosophy through. has to be everybody and at the end of the day, your you need to build the resources to continue to not just say I'll weave successfully sold them on, letting them say, Hey, I can get my use cases imployment with this product and then we're all, you know, we're off to the new client. You have to continue to identify, okay, I got that use case, implement it. Now, what's a new one you want to do? You know in seven months or eight months there's something new. Otherwise you're just it's just a static thing or successfully did what I want to do. And then if there's no identification of other new things they want to do or other goals or other use cases and you're not tracking that and you don't have a team that's maintaining that, then that's where the SASS model breaks apart as we know it. You're just that that long tail is going to get chopped off the minute they get bored of your product and it's so easy to leave it out. So if you're not keeping that cycle of use case understanding...

...and what they want to get, what their desire outcomes, are you not tracking that? You don't have a process, whether that's a human being process, if you're a BB company selling a large inner preest solution, or some automated team working through and tracking these things, and you're you're dead in the water. Over, I don't know how long you're going to be around, but it's going to take. It'll happen. Yeah, so so let's pick up on that. I love the documentation and the continued conversation or that is such that you can retain and expand these accounts metrics and measures. So you know got traditional ones like churn and health scores. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the customer Maturity Index. And when we were chatting before we hit record, you know you're working on something else. So I don't know how secret it is, but you know, I'd love to know how you see the future of metrics and measures of success. So start with the traditional going to the maturity index and then share as much as you're willing and able. Sure. So, so right churn. Everybody always focusing on and it's important. We tend to look more specifically at net revenue, retention, at form stack, so kind of taking all that into one you know, consideration, you know, we look at it from a quarter to quarter basis. We look at net retension. So it is a key KPI for us. Don't don't get me wrong, but I always struggled with it. I think a lot of us do. That that's that's a that's a lagging in the kit. You know, it's not so much what should I be looking out for, Worre should be focusing my time? So I stumbled upon bowses bowse mayors right customer Maturity Index, I guess what about two years ago, and to me it was kind of a light bulb moment in some regard of that. We always are asking ourselves at hut spot I you know a lot of smart people. They're of like, how else can I say this customer success team is being success. Like how are we? How are we measuring what the customer success team was doing and then ultimately leading to our customers being successful, or potentially successful, if you will? Like what kind of measurement can we do? And is always lots of different like experiments and stuff like that, but nothing really seemed to stick, and so his idea really Reson it with me now what we're doing at form stack. So I don't know if you want me to go into details of what the CMI is or maybe basics, like like a quick drive by, and again I'll link up to it in the in the block post. For anyone that's listening that wants to check it out. Just go to bombombcom slash podcast and then all the all the blog post will be posted there and I'll link it up. But yeah, just give a give a, you know, a couple lines on the CMI here. So the idea is that obviously everybody knows health scores. Generally speaking, you're building out sort of this score of like how healthy is the client based on their usage of your product? Right, so it's more of a how healthy is that relationship from with your customer and your product, which is important. It's great to have that insight, but in and of itself that's not a great sort of idea of how successful they might be. Are How happy it might be, or are they a churn risk it? You know you have somebody using your product like crazy but still be a churn risk.

So he add this idea of the customer maturity index, which would be sitting alongside another access point with the health score, that really focus more on the relationship of your customers abilities to gain value out of your product. How structured are they in their organization, from things like have they used a product like yours before? Who are the stakeholders? How many are there? Does this go all the way up to the sea suite or is it just some one employee that's overseeing one department, that's that's bringing this in as an experiment? And how likely, what do they need to be successful in kind of gaging that sort of whatever those attributes are for your business can vary. So it's building that index alongside with the Health Score, gives you this sort of Matrix that you can then start plotting your customs on. Okay, they're using our product, but they're not really set up to really understand how to gain that value. Right. So you have all these playbooks based on the four quadrons that you have that you can start to play out. You start to think like, oh, top right, those are people that are using our product and our wealth positioned within the organization. Based on their structure, they should be our success stories. Does it mean? Again, none of this means that these people are happy and I'm not turn risk. It just means that's what they should be and that's our playbook, right. We now to make them happy, you know, be they should be our our advocates and our referral mechanisms. And then the lower left, of course, are you're not using your products, not really structured that well, lot of effort to go in right to try to make those people turn around, and sometimes you have to make decisions, right in our kind of businesses, that you might just have to leave those folks alone for a little bit and start focusing on the areas we have their opportunity. And that is that, in the nutshell, right. and to me, and I open to add this extra layer along your health scool. Now, how we're doing that at forms to act slightly different variation that we're starting to play out. It's very early stage. Is I don't have any results, but it's kind of being piloted right now where we're taking this sort of approach of if you think about this journey, right, of a customer within a company like form stack or any software or it really any company, I guess there's all these different periods and milestones that you have that you call this desired outcome. Right, I have a desired outcome on a feature. There's a feature I really like to it. Would like to have so I can do more things with your solution. Right, that's a desire to coming now. Maybe I needed immediately, maybe it's a nice to have. So if you get it in six months, great, whatever it is, but there's some desire there. And then there's also down to the like its minutia things up. I got a support ticket and it's turned into a bug and it's impeding our ability to really use your product. Well, so I have a desired outcome of having that bug fixed in a certain time period. Tracking those is really tricky because you've got all those things happening in various places. But if your organization like forsac where you're building a customer success component, or Account Management Team Component, whatever we want to call it, in this sort of layer of customer experience. Then you have this opportunity to have this team that oversees their clients be able to identify those desired...

...outcomes and start tracking and creating literally an activity fee, because that's what desired outcomes are. They're going to happen, they're going to happen multiple, multiple times. Some of them are going to have more importance to the likelihood of the customer being happy over a period of time. So you can start to kind of envision a similar sort of constituted cmi where you add a different layer of waiting mechanisms to those desired outcomes to give you that extra index alongside your product usage. That's kind of where we're focusing our love. It really I'd love to follow up in like six to ten, six to ten months and to see how it's going. Is really clever ways to layer that lasting here. Before we kind of move on to a couple slightly more personal questions for fun. Three pillars of success here, you know, onboarding, account management and support, or kind of the three pillars of success. Where do you see maybe for each of those, where do you maybe see people fall down or missed opportunities or, you know, for someone that's that's listening, it's that that is in C S or Cx. Talk about the importance of these three pillars and maybe a just a pro tip around each of them. Yeah, I think it's easy for organizations to want to say right that they're a unified organization, but at the end of the day these are separate teams. Right, support has its functions and its processes, customer success has its functions in the processes and pro services and on, you know, whatever it is, technical services and support engineers, they have their processes and teams and managers. So you know, you we're all under one umbrella, but we have to we have to have this vision right, that were we are one team, you know, doesn't matter where you sit and where you might be in terms of your responsibilities with the client, at the end of the day we're one big outfit called customer experience, and I think it's it's easy to like lose that, I guess, focus and lose that, lose that vision sometimes because when we go back into like our respective teams were, back into the brind right of the daytoday. So it's trying to kind of keep everybody, you know, reminding of what is that vision, even if it's not fully implemented right that moment and it may still be a little disjoint. It in people are saying like, when's this going to happen? When are we going to be like seeing across both internally and organization and externally by our customers as is one big giant organization that can help you grow and be successful with our with our business. I think it's just continuing to have that focus, even if things are going to they're going to fall apart from time to time, right, and you just got to keep keep people's energy up about where we're going to go. And it might take six months or might take ten months or whatever. So that's the thing. Don't you don't lose helpe very it. It's gets good for anyone. Kind of a fun question that I that I tend to ask people who specialize and I've asked it across all three of these kind of department's marketing, sales and see us. I'll just ask this to you one way. What do you wish in your experience? What do you wish more sales people knew or understood about customer success? Great Question.

I love that question. What I wish they understood about is that we're we're partners with them and that we're not competitives. We're not in a competitive space, like we're not fighting to get, you know, the upgrade. You know that that you might be also try. Like sometimes you get these various scenarios of like sales has, you know, measured also on their retent with their ability to grow their install base, and then CSMS come along and it's like, Whoa, Whoa, wait a minute, what's happening here, like, are they taking over my relationship with this client? And it has to be seen more as a partnership, you know, in that customer success is there to help really grow that customer together and hopefully benefits both of us, of course, the end of day, but certainly you salesperson will reap the benefits because we'll be helping those customers use the product more and those expansion opportunities and up grappatudos will come along the way. Love it one team. Don't lose hope. So personal question, just because I'm curious and that's the fun opportunity I have as the host of the show to talk to smart folks like you. You aren't a Bachelor of Science and philosophy at the University of Vermont. Why Philosophy, and is there any kind of unique or surprising way that it's you know, you found yourself somewhere along your career dream said man, I'm so glad I have a background philosophy. Right. So it's one of those stories, right. I. You know, backgrounds easy. I. How did I get into it? I was a business major starting out and I hated the professor's right the end of the day, I had a hard time going into that building and actually feeling like I was going to have a successful educational outcome, whereas I'm like philosophy classes, I loved all the professors engaged, you know, going into that building was was a breath of press here, and so for me it was like a nobrainer, like I don't want to go through this next four years not being happy with who I'm being taught by. I'd rather go and have a good relationship with my profressor. That was really the big obviously, at the end of day, reason why I went to philosophy. I'm somebody who likes debate. I like having the ability to talk to people about my ideas, of my opinions, but also listen to them and try to understand their arguments and I find that aspect of philosophy and what I learned in that process has immensely helped me in what I've done over the last ten years of my career. Working with customers all walks of life. You have to really understand where they're coming from. You can never assume right that somebody knows something that you might know or knows it in the same way right and how they're talking to you about it. So to me that is such a great background if you're somebody WHO's trying to get into customer service sales. Even just being able to understand how to have those dialogs so good. I'm so glad I asked. Hey, this has been awesome. I've really enjoyed it. Love what you're doing. Love that you already have a vision for where you're going while you're, you know, turning,... know, building this team out under you know, an acquisition and merge situation here. Relationships are our number one core value here at bombomb and on the podcast and so I always like to give you the chance at this point to think or mention someone who's has a had a positive impact on your life or career and to give a mention to a company that you really respect for the types of experiences they're delivering to you as a customer. I've had some really I mean it's a tough question and yet I know you were going to ask him. I've been thinking about in my head, like who who has had the biggest impact, and it's kind of one of those things where it's the most recent. I guess that I would say when I came into bed rock. You know, I came out of hub spot. Had A lot of experience, obviously there with the customer experience, but not a ton of focus. Right. If you think about it, it's like million things that you want to try to do when you get this opportunity coming out of like being an interest or contributor and wanted to grow a team. It's like where do you focus? So I was I admittedly, probably not focus very well. When I was first at bed rock. We brought on a crow chief Evan Officer, probably around two thousand and thirteen the amount, and de Petro and he his backgrounds log me in. He's had tons of experience in the Boston area in the revenue space, but he really helped kind of tone my ability to focus on working through the problems that needed to be worked on the most. And I would say that experience and understanding that the sales relationship between sales and customer experience, customer success. I owe a ton to that man. Awesome. How about a company that you've had some good experiences with great experience? Well, you know, for talking about from a business software, I guess experience. You know, I myself tend to try to limit how much TEXTAC I have to be honest with you, so I don't. You know, I use sales force and I can't say too much about their experience, to be perfectly honest. But you know, in terms of I use every note. I absolutely love ever notes. You know, it's not a you know, it's a one too many experiences of product experience, what they do and how they help me guide, like how I can structure my notes and just little things that the tech touches that they do. I think there are phenomenal company in that regard. I am a big user, though, at a music level. I use all sorts of applications for music. I use from spotify to soundcloud to, you know, use workpress for for a blog that I used to run, and medium, you know. So all those companies inspire the heck out of me, you know, at a sort of how do I make the experience? How can I somewhat are you know, replicate some of those experiences of those company do like spotify, Netflix and those companies, and bringing into the BB space, obviously with the not the data scientists that they've got, but sort of be able to replicate that in some level? Awesome. So I you know, take away there for anyone...

...listening is look around you, because you have everyday experiences that could be you know, if you're a little bit more conscious or intentional about it, you could apply the things that you're experiencing yourself and and turn those into practices and experiences for your customers every day loop. This has been awesome. How can someone connect with you or follow up with you and or with form stack whim on twitter. Pretty active on twitter. My handles KIP Owen. That's Kip from a nickname throughout high school and college and just never goes away. Might as well. Keep it at Kipoh and if you want to pay me there and also on Linkedin. You know, it's pretty simple. Luke Owen cool and form stack is form stackcom, form stack, Yep loop, dot Owen a form stackcom. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks so much for your insights. Continued success to you. Love the journey that you're on and I really appreciate your time with us. Thanks Eve. Thank you. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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