The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

35. 2 Keys to Creating an ‘Extraordinary’ Customer Experience w/ Dan Gingiss

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Research shows that people are actually more willing to share about the positive experiences they’ve had with companies than the more negative ones. 

So, why don’t they? Well, most of us just haven’t had those kinds of really positive experiences. So, what can you do to create those positive experiences and change that sentiment?

That’s exactly what we’re talking about today with guest Dan Gingiss. Dan has run social media and digital marketing at companies with household names such as McDonald's, Humana, and Discover. He’s also the Chief Experience Officer at the company, Winning Customer Experience

Here’s what we talked about:

  • Why you should be your own customer
  • How to identify and resolve pain points
  • How to create extraordinary customer experiences

I always thought that executives in anycompany should be customers of their company and they should be regular oldcustomers. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host, eth and beaute hey welcome back to the customer experience podcast!This is going to be a fun episode. You will be glad that you click play onthis one. Our guest is Ron Social Media and digital marketing at companies withhousehold names like McDonald's humana discover he's the author of the book,winning its social customer care. He's the Co host of experience this anothercustomer experience podcast, which he cohost with my guest on episode.Fifteen of this podcast Joey Coleman and he's the chief experience officerat the company winning customer experience, Din, Gan Ges, welcome tothe customer experience podcast! Well, thank you so much for having me I'mexcited for the conversation and can't wait to get started. Yeah me too, andso we'll start where I always start, which is your thoughts or yourdefinition or that primary characteristics of customer experience.When I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? Well to me it means how customers feelabout every single interaction with your brand and the two underlines thereare the feeling part because perception is reality, and so, if we think we'vebuilt the best mobile AP in the world and Ur and our designers and ourprogrammers and everybody tells us that it's the best mobile AP in the world,but our customers say that it's really difficult to use. Then the answer isit's really difficult to use? The other part, though, is the every singleinteraction, and this is where I think most companies fall down is that everysingle interaction can mean everything from a direct male piece to a phonecall to a social media, interaction to the website to the mobile out to aninstore experience, and the problem is, is that all of those experiences atmost big companies are designed by different people in a very siledorganization? And then the result? Is S that we as customers, sort of feel thischoppiness, where things don't align or don't connect as well as we would likethem to? So those are the two things to me that make up the definition that arereally critical, it's great and something that you made me think aboutthere in the back. Half of that is that one weakness you know like the the achain is as strong as its weakest link or whatever just just one weakness inall of that set of touchpoints cast potentially negative thoughts andfeelings, and then ultimately, potentially negative stories about theentire experience. Even though you know eighty percent of it is spot on. Youknow the twenty percent that isn't can can really damage the rest for sure,and I think that's the biggest risk today is that it really only takes onemistake, sometimes to lose a customer, and so the staks are really high. Oneof the things that I have found really fascinating, and this is what I oftentalk about on stage and work with clients on is, that is that people areactually the research shows that people are actually more willing to sharehighly positive experiences than they are negative ones. But the problem isand ask any consumer. We just don't have very many positive experiences toshow, and so I love doing this on stage I'll say: Hey raise your hand. If youcan remember the last time you had such a remarkable experience with the brandthat you couldn't wait to tell your friends a family, and you know fourhands go up, and then I say: okay, now raise your hand if you remember thelast time that you were disappointed in an experience with a company andeverybody's hands God. So we tend to share these disappointments becausethey happen to us a lot and they are sort of on one end of the spectrum.That's worth sharing because theyre...

...good stories, but we're actually morewilling to share those positive ones if we just had some positive ones to shareit. So I love to explore with companies. How do you create those positive onesthat people want to share just as much as the negative ones hat actuallychange that sentiment great and that that just leads right into I for anyone?Listening, I create outlines of these conversations. I try to keep them loose,but I do have places I want to go with them, and so this actually goes rightinto the next question. I kind of generated prior to our connecting here,which is like how are people operationalizing customer experiencelike in addition to speaking and writing and doing podcasting, youconsult so you're inside these organizations like what is theconsulting engagement, look like for you. What do people need, how how Aurcompanies operationalizing and creating his kind of alignment and consistencywithin their organizations where some? What does that look like today? Well,first of all, I don't claim to be able to knock down all the silos ecause thatthat can be an impossible task, but usually what I find is that there's twoways to approach the problem: The simplest fastest way and the way that Ialways suggest that you start is to identify the painpoints that are theretoday and to get rid of them and oftentimes companies get so wrapped upin innovation and big technology product projects that the Q to getlittle projects done is so long. They just never get done, and so one of thethings I did when I was at discover that was really successful. Is Imanaged to essentially grab the person from the technology team, and I said Ijust going to rent this person for like three weeks and all the person did waswork on little painpoints at the time it was the website just little thingsthat we had identified, that we knew were angering customers because theywere frustrating and they were so easy to fit, but we just never could getthem prioritized. Next to you know these giant innovation projects. So, inthe span of three weeks, we fixed about a hundred things, and not one of them.You know was big enough to knock the whole thing down, but a hundred littlechanges made a huge impact, and not coincidentally, that was the first yearthat discover one. The JD power award for highest customer satisfaction anaward that they were really pursuing because Amex had wan it. You know allseven years of this existence and if you think about ITMEX, is this big,highly respected brand discovers a much smaller brand midwest different kind ofa customer base and to win that award was a huge deal and I absolutelyattribute it to spending that time. Removing the painpoints. Then I thinkyou take a look at the flip side of it and you say all right: How do we make our experience just that muchbetter, and one of the things that I love talking about is the wordextraordinary, which really only means better than ordinary. It doesn't meanthat you have to do something that is like sending the man to the Moon Right.It's it doesn't have to be crazy, expensive. It doesn't have to beoutlandish. It just has to be a little bit better than ordinary and in anindustry like credit cards, which is frankly pretty commoditized, there'ssome great opportunities to do things that are a little bit better thanordinary. A couple things that I think discovered did that were that weregreat examples of this. They have the only call center that I or they havemultiple call centers, but they are the only credit card company in the US Shatas a hundred percent US based service. So what they started doing was theyasked every agent when they picked up the phone to tell the customer wherethey were so hi. This is Dan from Chicago. How can I help you and whatwas absolutely unbelievable is if you listen to these calls nine times out often. The very first thing out of the mouth of the customer was somethingabout the location that that person was sitting and it was either. Oh, I loveChicago or how is the weather, or even...

...as direct as Oh, thank goodness, I'mtalking to somebody in the United States, so it drew out and it createdthis immediate connection with the customer and for years they had had USservice. They just never did that extra thing to sort of make the customer aware of it and oncethey made that change. Every conversation you know was sort offorever altered, and so it's get rid of the painpoints and then figure out theparks that you can go just a little bit above ordinary and that's when youreally start to kind of get that ball rolling downhill, an the momentum goingof a great experience so good. I love your definition of t e extraordinaryand I separated those intentionally extraordinary little bit extra little alittle sum axtra and in this this idea of I mean in this case there's a realand perceived value to having US based service, but even if that's not a pointof contention for anyone listening just the idea of opening the call withsomething a little bit personal that you- and I can talk about in this case,geography is pretty easy to talk about wheathers, the easiest ist. Why we ot,you know, often start there, but you know ind, ask questions like what doyou do for a living, but just opening the call with something that we canconnect down as people is just a great tip? Can you go one step deeper on oneof those things, though so painpoints? I think the first thing that comes toMi two things come to mind, but I'm sure you with your depth of experiencewell offer maybe one more or add some color to what I'm about to suggest. Oneis have one or more people. Multiple people on the team go through theprocess to find out where the pain is because we created this process forthis website or this function or whatever months or even years ago, andno one's been back since right, so it hasn't been reviewed since it's beencreated or defined and so send people through it on some consistent cadenceand identify painpoints. That way. Another way, of course, would be somelevel of customer feedback, but I wonder if they, if customer feedbackgets specific enough, I guess Hou would find emerghant themes about really bigpain points, but just go one step deeper for folks listening to getpractical about how to identify painpoints yeah, that's a a greatquestion and both of your answers are correct. You have to sort of do them incombination, so I found when I first I was at discover almost ten years andwhen I first got there, it was suggested to me that I signed up for anemployee card, and I said why do I want an employee card and they said well,you know you get this benefit and you get this benefit and then, when youcall customer service they know that you're an employen. I don't want themto know, I'm an employee, that's exactly what I don't want right,because I don't want to be treated differently from a regular customer,and so I declined the employee card and I always thought that executives, anany company should be customers of their company and they should beregular old customers. You don't want the you know the red syren alarm to gooff when the CEO calls into the call center. You want that person to betreated just like everybody else, so that they can hear it and feel it andexperience it. So I always recommend that you become a customer of your ownproduct. Sometimes it's harder than other times. When I worked at Humana, Iwas 't eligible for Medicare advantage, so I couldn't really sign up for it,but you know signing up for a dental plan or doing something trying to signup at least going through. The processes is really important, and thenyou mentioned voice to the customer, which is also critical, and there aredefinite ways where you can capture that I'll. Tell you a story that I Ithought was really instructive again back at discover, so on discoverswebsite on every page. They used a survey mechanism and there's a bunch ofthem out there. They happen to use one called opinion lab and at basically atthe bottom of every page, unobtrusive, it's not a pop up they'se, just justlike a little icon that you can leave your comment about that page and whenyou click on the icon, it asks you a couple of quick, multiple choice,questions and then it gives you a place...

...for feedback. Now I got a report everyday on the feedback that we got and we got hundreds of pieces of feetbackevery day. That's what happens you? You have fifty million log ens a monthright. You get lots of feedback and you're right. Sometimes the big issueswould just pop out and you could you get you'd see it ten times in one dayand you'd identify. You know it was a problem, but more often there werelittle things simmering under the surface that if you weren't puttingtogether those daily reports and sort of tracking some trends, it was reallytough to find so one of the things we did is we asked a question in themultiple choice section. We asked a question that came directly from theForester Customer Experience Index, which was how easy was it to dobusiness with us today on a scill of one to ten, and I then asked for areport that had never been generated before I said I want to see a list ofevery page in reverse order of the answer to that question. I want to seethe pages that people say are the most difficult and then I want to explorethe comments associated with those pages. Now the page that rose to thevery top, the most difficult page on the on the site, according to ourcustomers, was actually a super important page for us. It was the referfriend page. It was, you know, introduce someone to discover and we'llgive you fifty doar like man what's wrong. With this page, I went andlooked at it. I didn't see anything wrong, so we dig into the comments andit turns out that, for one specific browser to submit button was notshowing up, so people were filling out their names and their email addressesof their friends, and then they were stuck, and this was obviously annoying.We fixe that overnight and sure enough. The next day, those scores on eese ofuse, popped right back up and that's what sort of gave me this idea of.Let's go find the next hundred things that are wrong and just fix all ofthose, because they're not hard, but you do have to discover them, and sotha, no pun intended. So I think it is about having you have to have the rightsystem in place to capture the feedback, and then you have to have you've got tobe able to go beyond reporting and one of the things I find that I is a bigmistake. Is You ask companies witd? Do you listen to tha voice to the customer?Oh Yeah, I get this ruport every day. Well, a report doesn't fix anythingright and- and I can tell you from sitting in the chair when I get a dailyreport number one most days of the week- I don't even have time to read it, so Istart they start stacking up and then, when you have ten of them, there's noway you're reading ten of these reports, so you it's not effective, just to besending out a daily report to people because nothing gets done. You have toget it that step forward, that that next step, where it says, okay, we've got to identify these issues andthen have the ability to fix it and again that second piece was critical,as I had to figure out a way to get past the big q e in technology and andactually have somebody be willing to go fix these things, and it turned outthat that was a great project and very successful. I love that story and I recognize thepain in having all this really valuable information, but not being quite surehow to harness the resources internally, and I think this gets to the bigchallenge of customer experience inside organizations and breaking down theSyles, which you is this kind of objective third party that comes in youknow, to assess and diagnose and discover- and you know, prescribe andthings like that- can't do on your own. So you said earlier like I'm, I can'tbreak down the silo just too much, it's a different thing, and it's even hardfor people internally to do it's. You know if this is something producedthroughout throughout and across the entire organization. How can we workwithin these syles to get it done and just you know, the idea that you had totake someone out of an existing role speaks to the way that we're not reallystructured to get a lot of this important work done, and we need tofigure that out. I want to go to social media just in the title of Your Book,You're, obviously blending social and customer experience. Obviously, socialis inherent in some ways to the...

...customer experience. But can you speakto your view of like how are those twointegrated? What is where to social fit into this picture? So I actually believe that the adventof social media is why we're talking about customer experience so much today,because social media gave customers a voice that they never had before andshockingly they use that voice right and so thus we're now all focused onlistening to that customer and trying to respond. I look at it as sort of acircular relationship, so I'm a believer that again with the advent ofsocial media, there's no longer such a thing as an offline experience. Justask a certain airline that got caught dragging a guy off a plane, and youknow you realized that man. It used to be that when we were on a plane thatwas like the ultimate offline experience and now even that isn'toffline anymore, and so everything can come online and therefore we ascompanies, even we AE social media teams have to be. We have to knowenough to be dangerous about every part of the experience, because any partfails and you're probably going to find out about it on social media. Inseveral of my jobs, I have found out that the website was down from twitter.You know before even the internal technology people know it's like yourcustomers are going to tell you the flipside, then the other part of thescircle is that how we respond to people talking to us on social media feedsright back into that experience. So if we are responsive and empathetic and wecan resolve problems, we can often turn tetractors into advocates and I've seenthat happen tons of times. You start with an angry customer who reallydoesn't expect you to solve their problem. They just want a vent and thenall of t a sudden, their problem is solved and they love you. The opposite is true, too, is that ifyou have a customer either an anquy customer or, frankly, a very happycustomer who reaches out to you and you ignore them now, you've changed their opinion ofyou and that feeds back into their overall experience. So to me, social, Igot into it as a marketer. The first thing I realized about it was: I don'tthink this is another broadcast channel, which is what brands did when it firstcame out. I mean I remember, being in conversations how about we put our TVcommercial on facebook. It's like what wait a minute. I fast forward to the TVcommercial on my television. Why do you think I want to see it on face? Butthat's not what I want to see, but that's what people immediately thoughtthat you know hey? This is a free channel where we can broadcast ourmessage to the to the masses and instead I think what happened is. Itbecame the first marketing channel where customers could talk back andthat changed everything because they did talk back and they gave feedbackand they said stop with these commercials. We don't want to see theseor they when you interrupted their facebook feed, it reminded them thatthey had been meaning to call you about some completely different issue, and sothen they type in their their problem, even though it has nothing to do withthe marketing piece you just put in front of them, so it changed everythingand that's why I've loved to keep. I love social media anyway, but I lovethe interaction of social and customer experience because I think they arereally sort of two sides to the same coin. FFO will yeah. It was superimportant in my career I was in broadcast television. I ran marketingteams inside local TV stations, and so you need to occasionally do the eventslike a parade. You don't there's very little customer interaction, you're,just like high people over there on the curb and you'd go to like festivals andevents where you would maybe talk to people, but there's so little customerfeedback, except for research, which is all anonymized and lump together. Andso I remember I was still in television when social was on the come up and thisidea of people a being able to talk about whatever you're talking about andthen be talking about things that have absolutely nothing to do with whatyou're talking about. But you still need to find the right home toparticipate with it. So obviously the...

...rise of social changed all of this, and-and I agree with you that that yeah this does look like a marketing channel.No, actually, this looks like something a lot more and a lot more important.But let's get a little bit more nuanced. How Ave you seen that kind of change,maybe maybe over the past five years or so like what? What are some of thechanges that you're seeing happening in social for better for worse, forneither that has an impact on maybe the waycompanies are engaging with customers. We think the biggest change has beenthat social media as a service channel, started off as the Custas, the channelof last resort. So I had already called and was put on hold for an hour or Iemailed and they didn't respond, or my chat session took forever or whatever,and I'm already really frustrated, because some other customer servicechannel has failed me. So now I'm going to go to social, but I think, what'shappened over time- is that people realized that engaging with brands onsocials actually quite pleasant, and it's it's fast. It's there is no hold time like there is.You know when you're sitting on the phone, because you can tweet and goabout your day and and come back and see the response. You know wheneverit's convenient for you and as companies sort of quickly funded andresourced social media. What happened is they put some really good serviceagents on this channel and people started figuring out? Man I can get myproblem resolved really well on this channel I'll, tell you that I go tosocial always first, now it's my channel of first resort and I thinkthat's really the trend that has happened and it's because for me anyway,it's the most convenient fastest, most pleasant service channel that there isout there. I think the other thing that has happened and the other trend thatwe're seeing happening right now is actually thismove to from what I'llcall public social to private social, which is to sort of these messagingAPPs and facebook, messenger and twitter, DM and wee chat, and all thesethings- and this is a really nice trend for both customers and companies.Companies of course love it, because the complainers are now taking theircomplaints off line so to speak. You know out of the public sphere, so it sothe PR people can relax a little bit and and companies don't have to be soafraid of complaints. Customers like it because again, it's a very fastconvenient channel. The entire history is there, so you know you', don't youfind yourself not having to repeat your problem or even repeat your loyaltynumber whatever? It is your identifier because t all you got to do is scrollup and you share D it a while ago, and so you can just continue theconversation. I've had an ongoing conversation with American Airlines,for you know a year or two now where it's like every time I have a questionor I've got an issue or I want them to look something up for me. I just goback and they know me and they and it's so easy and way better than calling oranything like that. So I do think that's a nice trend again for bothparties and that's probably the second thing thathas that has happened. I think again. Thethird thing is the one that hasn't quite happened yet, but that I'mpushing for a D that I really hope happens. Is this move towardspositivity and this abiithe ability to change the sentiment by, as we used tosay at McDonald's, creating more lovers than haters are making the loverslouder than the haters and, of course, by you know, by creating experiencesthat people want to share positively with with friends and family andfollowers and sort of drowning out some of the unfortunate hatred and trols andother stuff that is out ind social, that is, you know, still kind of thethe dark underbelly of the channel Yeah, so many good pieces in there. I want toget practical for people in companies smaller than the ones you've you'vebuilt value into through your engagement there you know in a smallerorganization. Social is often kind of tossed off over there to thatindividual. If you're lucky it's a team,...

...it's easily silod like how do weintegrate it back in? For specifically, you know, for us, social and socialengagement, even in a support type scenario, was all driven out ofmarketing. You know was me and thet. It was this Gal that I hired and we woulddo it together and then we put someone on social full time and now it's her,but she takes vacation and, like most humans, get sick from time to time, andso we're trying to figure out how to rope customer service and customersuccess in there. So people get more timely responses. So I guess I have abunch of questions. I'll save theni'll save the one that isjust occur to me for to get your ratioally when a team is much smaller oyou have any tips or recommendations around that like how do we? How do weintegrate social like? How do we elevate it out if we're in a companysmaller than a humana or a discover or McDonald's yeah? It's a great questionand it's interesting because small companies present different problemsthan big companies. You know the the big company problem. Certainly atMcDonalds was there were more than a million mentionsevery single day. How do you handle? How do you hire enough people to handlethat right now for a small company, even ten or twenty mentions a day?Maybe that same question of like how do we handle this, because your socialmedia person probably has a lot of other things on his or her plate andmaybe is also your email person or you'R, you know, or your website person,so they're doing multiple things. I think the first thing to keep in mindis that it is still critical that you communicate with your customers,especially when they want to communicate with you. I mean I alwaysask, and I have worked in small companies as well, and I think thatthing that we have to remind ourselves is without customers. We don't have abusiness, so there is nothing more important than communicating thentalking with our customers, especially when they want to talk with us. So interms of prioritizing work, I would tell the I would tell the social mediaperson forget about your next facebook campaign and answer that customersquestion, because that's more important right, that's, I think that's one piece.The second thing is is that it's really important just to set expectations foryour customers, because people are generally very accepting of smallercompanies and understanding that they're not twent for seven like anairline or like a hotel chain right, but you do have to come out in front ofit and on your profile, pageest say: Hey! We're here to service you fromNineto, five or whatever, and if you, if it's after five, we'll get back toyour first thing in the morning, and people totally understand that it'swhen you you sort of either don't set expectations or set the wrongexpectations. You know, for example, if I tweet you at two o'clock in themorning and you've got somebody answering then the next time I tweetedtwo o'clock in the morning. I'm assumiging somebody's answering right,and so you almost want to not do that and wait until Niney am and now you'veset the expectation with me that you're going to get back to me and Busi thishours, and so it's absolutely fine. I often get asked like you know: Do wehave to be twenty four seven and for most businesses the answer snow I mean.Obviously, if you're an international airline and people are flying, t otwend a or seven and are having problems yeah, you got to be there, butfor a lot for most companies. That's not the case. The other question I getasked all the time is well. What channels do I do we have to be in, andmy answer is I'm going to tell you ahead of time is somewhat disappointing.It is wherever your customers are, and so, when I was working on a Medicareadvantage product at aimed at seniors, we weren't one snapchat, because that'snot where seniors are, but we sure, as heck were on facebook right and so yourbusiness may be very highly focused on snapcheck, as that might be where yourcustomers are, in which case you've got to be there, and if not, that don'tworry about not being there. There is a lot of companies, big and small, makethe mistake of feeling like they have to be everywhere, and then all thatdoes is stretch your one person too thin, and so I would say, focus onwhere your customers are the one or two channels and set expectations andremember that not only are we nothing...

...without our customers, but it is awhole lot easier to keep an existing customer than it is to acquire a newone. And yet, when you look at the dollar spent and the focus given tosales and acquisition and marketing versus customer success and customerservice and retention in almost any size business, it's way off. And so Ithink that's. The other piece of advice I would give. Is that this termcustomerx success. I have some skepticism about, because I've been ina customer success role and to me it felt a little more like inside salesand it did really making my customers successful. But I do think that that isa critical role, because when your customers are successful, then youdon't have to sell as much because they're going to renew and they'regoing to stay and they're going to be Loyalto, yeah really good stuff thereand you tackle the other question I had which was about it was really aboutexpectation. So T it wasn't the language I was going to use. But youknow your customers when they reach out through these. Let's just call them,even though it's ridiculous to do so in two thousand and nineteen alternativechannels, alternative to email chat phone, that they have an expectation,but you have the opportunity to manage it and set it, and as long as you're,clear and explicit, you know what they can expect in this channel. Then thisidea of being on twenty four seven. It was for me. It was like what is theurgency of response, because th earlier talked about this acincrinicity, whereyou ase a costom working between and then you know a while later you checkin, and there is your responsor. Your answer, like you know how urgent doesit need to be so that was awesome. That's really really good practicalstuff. Let's talk about your podcast a little bit. You also have a customerexperience based podcast. It's called experience this, it's a very fun format.It is not. I run a very traditional format where I bring on really smartpeople and ask them questions that either a I needer want the Hanswers toor be. I think the listeners would really enjoy and really evoke the steemand build the signgoing conversation youhave sthink, that's a little bitmore timely, topical back and forth. You do with Joy Coleman, who wrote hisbook on the topic. You concluded that that last response with talk about whatyou're trying to do with experience this yeah, so we are about to enter ourfourth season of experience this and it has been a ton of fun to do, and I hope-and I think that that comes out in the product is that Jo and I really have alot of fun doing the show and we looked at the whole show top to bottom andsaid we want to do something different. If we're going to talk about creating remarkable experiences, weneed to create an experience for our listeners. We need to do something thatis extraordinary. That's a little bit better than ordinary or or justdifferent from ordinary, and I actually previous to experience. This did hostanother podcast. That was an interview show, and so I love I love listening tointerviews he smart people and learning from them as well. So it's not thatthere's a knock on that format. It's just simply that we wanted tointentionally do something different. So what we landed on was essentially roughly twenty five tothirty minute episode, that's broken into three different segments, and Ilike to compare it to. If you remember the price's right game show. You knowthey have like fifteen different games, but they only play five or six games inevery episode, and so you never even quite know what game you're going toget and that's exactly what we do. So we have about ten different segmenttypes, but we only use three in every episode, and so you don't even knowwhich of the ten you're going to get so every episode feels different. It's notthere's not it's sort of. If you can't fall asleepat the wheel, because the next episodeis going to be something reallydifferent. The shorter format segments also of like seven eight. Maybe tenminutes allow for just sort of a quicker discussion that that's reallylively, really interesting, really doesn't lull at all, because you sortof getting to the point and then we...

...move on and we capture it takeaway sothat it's really important to us thatthere's a that there's a concrete takeaway from every story that we tell.That is practical, that people can kind of go back to work and be like hey. Iheard this great story and here's how it would affect our business and IVsaid the word story now a couple times to. I think we also try to focus onscorytelling. I think the best way to get people interested in customerexperience or enthused about doing something at their own business is justto tell them stories that are memorable. That are practical. I personally try tostay away from stories that are might be amazing, but are so outlandish thatan t, a a typical company couldn't possibly do it right. It's Li I meanmost, companies aren't going to spend half a million dollars on you know onecustomer and you know just to get the PR value out of it right. So we reallytry to focus on stories that are practical. One of my favorite partsabout the show is that a lot of the stories now are coming from ourlisteners. So theire call there. You know we have this ability. We have likea digital voice, mail kind of thing, where you can leave a recording of astory that of your own experience, and so then we bring on these other voicesnot as an interview but as just sort of a snip it where we have sally, tell herstory for two minutes and then joy and I kind of riff on it and come up withthe takeaways. So it's definitely fun and we've had a blast doing it and andwe're going to keep doing it as long as people want to listen to it. Well, theway you opened, it absolutely does come through it's just. It's got acontagious effect, and so I love that customers are interacting or listeners.Customers are listening and participating with it directly. It'sgreat and I'm excited that you talk about the season approach, just reallyquickly. What's the approach from a season, but it's just you guys havecommitments and you're like okay. We need some periodic breaks to breatheand round up some new stuff and take care of other things or yeah. I thinkth T, that's definitely part of it. I think the other part is that we'vegotten used to as consumers we've gotten used to sort of binging onseasons of content, whether it's on Netflix or Amazop, prime or whatever itis our first season was forty episodes long and it was a bear just to do everyweek for forty weeks, and I think we found just personally tha towards theend of that we were getting exhausted and we didn't want that to come out inthe show. I still think the content was great, but it was just a struggle forus to get geared up for it. So we took a little break and then we moved tosixteen episode seasons which actually, although it wasn't intentional, we kindof follow the school year. So we go from January to May and then we takethe summer off and then we come back in September and we go through December.You know, take a maybe a week or two off for winter break and come rightback in January and go through may again. So right now we're on haetusover the summer and it's great it's we can focus on our own things. We can dosomething else. We can collect stories so that when we come back in the fall,we got a nice backlog of fun stories to talk about, and so far that's workedreally well in. Sixteen episodes seems to be. I I'm not exactly sure how wecame up with sixteen. I think it was more of a calendar thing. You know fourmonths, it just worked pretty well for us, so we're going to keep doing itawesome again. It's called experience this with an exclamation point. Eventhe exclamation point comes through in the listen and the fourth seasonscoming soon. I noticed. Obviously, I like to read up read about guests. WhenI can, I try to read some of their blod posts or read books or listen to theepisodes. I have been listening to experience this prior to reaching outto you to come on this show anyway. Thank you re, thank you for doing itand I'm glad you're finding the rejuvenation you need to get back at itagain, because it's a pleasure to listen to, but one of the things Inotice is that you have a background in a couple of prestigiousschools. You did communication an psychology at Penn, which are the twosubjects I studied most at the University of Michigan, and you didyour Mba an northwesterns Kelog School...

...of Management, one of the best in theworld before we get into. Maybe the value of that experience. Talk aboutthe perceived value of that experience, I feel like a higher education. Formaleducation are a little bit under attack and part by this hustle culture. That'slike who needs that you just need to get out there and get it done, and allof that and then and then also of course, the more practicalconsideration of you know the fact that the cost of it is rapidly out pacing.You know the cost of inflation. Etceta talk about your thoughts at a very highlevel about formal education, yeah. It's a great question I'll tell you.I've been interviewed on a lot of podcast and I've never been asked that.So this is a an answer that has never been heard before. So I love thequestion. First of all, I would say- and I think a lot of people would say Iprobably couldn't get indepenn today- it's so much more competitive, eventhan when I was there, but I ended up going to pen really because first ofall, they let me in but as I was looking at schools, I stepped on thecampus, and it was just one of those moments where I was like this is whereI belong. I love this place. I visited lots of college campuses, they're allbeautiful. There wasn't really any that I hated, but I just stepped on thatcampus and I loved Philly and I was like this is where I got to go, and itwas an amazing experience for me. I spent my biggest extra curricular was thenewspaper, and so I really got into journalism and knowing that it wasn'tsomething I wanted to do for a career. But honestly, the skills that Ideveloped as a writer and an editor have have really helped me through mycareer in its entirety. People still know today that if they've got aspelling, your grammar Er and a word documentor a power point, I'm the onethat's going to find it just because it's going to pop off the page andpunch me in the face, whereas other people will will will skip it. FunnyStory, by the way I actually had a vendor come to present to me a discover,and they spell discover wrong on the cover page of their presentation, andyou could probably bet that I wasn't really giving them the benefit of thedoubt for the rest of the presentation, and I think Kellog was an awesomeexperience as well, and I do think that there is a lot of value in an MBA inthe sense of it just rounding out the other areas of business that maybeyou're not as comfortable on right. So I came into Calagan left Kellig as amarketer but being exposed to FINANC and Statistics and economics, and someof these other things that you know marketers often get a bad rap there.You know it's the it's the soft skill and they don't really understandnumbers and all that thing and ind. So I really enjoy kind of learning some ofthat other stuff than ironically, the the required classes that I had to takein my first year. There were eleven of them and the one that I waited to takelast because I was absolutely convinced I was going to hate was operations andI took operations and I loved it and it actually turned out to be my secondmajor behind marketing at Kalogu, because I thought it was so fascinatingand I do credit that to sort of my interest in customer service andcustomer experience was taking some of those operations classes that justnever would have. I think crossed my mind. I would say,however, that what you said is true that I think the value of the qualityof the school that you went to is not as high as it used to be, and I thinkthat NBAS have become arguably what law degrees became a few. You know a coupledecades earlier: they sort of become a diamond dozen, that everythingknoweverybody has an MBA now, and I don't that could be frustrating to me. Idon't think it really is. You know, because I think that the education isstill important and it's and whether you got it at Kellug or you got it atat some school. I've never heard of, I don't think, is that critical, I'mobviously proud of where I went, but I do think that, as I E as I'veprogressed in my career, where I went to school has become less and lessimportant, and it's funny my dad said to me when I graduated college. He saidthe first job you get they're going to...

...ask for your GPA in college and thennobody else is ever going to care and he's right, nobody's ever asked mesince then, my GPA pen and nobody, including my first job after businessschool, ever asked for my GPA at Kellox. So it really doesn't matter. You knowthe details behind it, don't really matter. I pasted in both cases Igraduated, but I do think that the education part does matter. It helpsyou to be more well, rounded, helps you to be a generalist and whatever rolethat you're in and it helps you to really understand, especially whenyou're having debates with your colleagues or you're having bigmeetings with lots of differing opinions. It allows you to be more openminded to you know, other people's perspectives, yeah, really good. Youcovered a lot of really important ground there and help me organize acouple. Thoughts are on it one. I can absolutely see how operations wouldlend itself to a customer experience approach in particular because it isinnerdisciplinary or cross silo or cross function. However, you want todofine that and operations has that that underlying element baked in, Ithink, there's also an experience there. I mean you got to it really there atthe end a little bit, because I agree, I mean I've hired a number of peoplefor my career and you if you went to a prestigious school and went really well.That's part of the holistic snap shout of you on paper, but ultimately it'sit's you in person, it's the accomplishments. It's the stories,you're allowed that that you can tell extemporaneously in an interview thatreally and what other people say about you, reputation right just to doubleback to social media and stories, thot people, talent experience. I do agreethat it all adds together to make you a more well rounded person in a lot ofenvironments, but but you mentioned like right off the bat when I steppedown that campus I knew this place was for me. I think my son had that samemoment visiting northwestern a couple summers back, but but there's anexperience there to like to being there in Pursean. I did my NBA over fiveyears to drag it out as long as I could make it easier to pay for, and I opted not to do any classes online abecause the school was. You know a thirty minute drive for my office, so Icould get up there a couple week nights every week, but there's something aboutthat. Inperson experience. I think that that adds to the whole thing talk aboutit from an experiential standpoint. Absolutely I mean probably the best and most lastingimpact of going to business school is the network that I created by beingthere and one of the things that they do at Kelog and I'm sure there's somepsychology behind this, but the first day you're there of orientation, thehead of admissions stands up and basically tells you about your class,and you know in my class there was, you know everybody short of the like curingcancer right. There was the guy that spent three years in Africa. You knowsaving babies and there was he the other person that climbed Mount Everestand there was the other person that- and it was like. Oh my gosh- you justkept feeling smaller and smaller, because these people had doneunbelievable, remarkable things, and that's really that the takeaway wasjust it was so it was such an experience to be in a room not whereyou feel like the smartest person in the room, but where you feel likeeveryone's the smartest person in the room and they're all kind ofchallenging you to think differently. I remember one project that we were on agroup project where I was there was a marketer. The person next to me was theteacher. The person next to them was from the military. The person next tothem, you know, was from a was, I don't know from the medical industry orwhatever, and here we are all trying to solve the same problem, bringing ourunique experiences together to solve it, and I thought it was absolutelyfascinating and you don't get enough of that in the workworld, becauseoftentimes, it's a very homogeneous population versus being in that you otrying to solve a a complex business case sitting next to a doctor. Itwaswas really really interesting to me...

...it's great and it leads into the way. Ialways like to close the show here, because I know you have a call at thetop of the hour, so I want to honor that relationships are our number onecore value here: a Bombam we're all about that human connection, therelationship to give and Tak and everything that comes through that. SoI like to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positiveimpact on your life or career and to give a shout out to a company that yourespect for the way that they treat customers cool. Well, I'm going to givea shout out to my friend and Mentorsha, a Pican who is a customer service Guru,who I like to call my my brother from another mother, because we share thesame hair do and when we're walking side by side. It's a pretty funny site.But SHEP has you know, he's a hall of fame. Speaker he's been in the businessfor thirty plus years and he has been so generous with his time and hisventorship and and really helping me along in this business, which I thinkeverybody needs. Everybody needs a mentor. I've tried to be a mentor to asmany people as I can and throughout my career, but it is always nice when you,when you get one for yourself. So I want to thank Shep for that, and thecompany right now that I am absolutely obsessed with, is called imperfect,produce and it's sout startup out of San Francisco. Theyare essentially taking what they call ugly fruit and vegetables that stuffthat isn't pretty enough to go into grocery stores and they've created asubscription program out of it and what I think is so remarkable about it. Isit not only? Is it a great value where I'm getting you know might be sometimesreally large cucumbers or really small apples or whatever or dence or bruises?It's really high quality, fruit and vegetables and a great price, but theother part that they're so good at is that they help me measure on thewebsite in real time. They tell me how much how many pounds of waste I'vesaved from the landfill and how much water I've saved, because they you knowbecause of that, and how much o to have kept out of the AR, and it's really aninteresting way of keeping the customer hooked, because you, you understandyour own contribution, your own value back plus, they have hilariousmarketing. They're so clever, their billboards are funny the the boxes theyship, the stuff in or are really creative. So I just I think, they'vereally figured out how to take something as strange as ugly fruit andturn it into a fantastic experience so good and what they're doing there istying you into something bigger, it's bigger than me and the fruit I may ormay not want to eat for the way it looks and getting over that. But thisidea of, like you, you are part of something bigger when you participatewith us such a such a powerful ad Dan. This has been awesome, really reallyenjoyed the conversation. I appreciate your time so much for folks that wantto, and by the way I learned about imperfect, imperfect fruit, produceanyeah, perfect bt. Probably sorry, I learne about that from experience this,so it's O as o connect with you or the podcast or your book or anything. Howcan people follow up if they enjoyed any aspect of this conversation surewill definitely come see me on my website at Dan Gingescom, it's GINGISSand there's links to everything there book podcast speaking etce, I'm alsovery active on twitter, and not surprisingly, since I'm a social mediaguy. So that's at dginges and I love to engage. I practice what I preach. So,if you reakh out to me, I promise I'l respond and generally pretty prettyquickly and then experience. This is available wherever you listen to thispodcast or any other podcast Itune stitcher. You know your favoritepodcast APP. We should be on it and it's not reach out to me and I'll makesure that we get on it awesome. Thank you so much for your time. I hope youhave a great rest of your day and really appreciateed all the storiesyou're able to share with us here. Thank you. I appreciate the greatquestions and if for really pushing me, it was fun cool, continued success toyou, tecure, clear communication, human connection, higher conversion. Theseare just some of the benefits of adding...

...video to the messages. Your sendingevery day, it's easy to do with just a little guidance O pick up the officialbook. Rehumonize your business, how personal videos, accelerate sales andimprove customer experience learn more in order today at Bombam Com buck,that's bomb, vombcom fuck, thanks for listening to the customer experience.podcast remember the single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers, continue learningthe latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favoritepodcast player, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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