The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

36. The Financial Side of CX: Which Customers Should You Invest In? w/ Sarah Toms

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In any given company, not all customers are created equal. 

So, we need to know where, when, and in whom we should be investing. 

Well, on today’s episode of The Customer Experience podcast, we did something a little bit unique — we put customer experience into a financial context. Sarah Toms came on the show to talk about customer centricity: aligning your products and services to the needs of your customers to maximize their value to your firm. 

For the past six years, Sarah has served in IT Director roles at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. She is currently the Executive Director of Wharton Interactive at The Wharton School and recently co-authored a book titled, “The Customer Centricity Playbook.”

What we talked about:

  • What is customer centricity
  • What are common myths and misperceptions about customer centricity
  • How to get an approximation of your LTV
  • What sparked Wharton Interactive

Resources we talked about:

 

Check out our podcast on Apple Podcasts/Apple Podcasts, or on Google Podcasts/Google Play, or Spotify and even on Stitcher.

Customer centricity is not about customer service. It's not about amazing customer experience, even it certainly collaborates with those ideas, it accentuates those ideas, but it really is about being more data drivenand surrounding your strategy and your values around this idea of customer lifetime value.The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success expertscreate internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal andhuman way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, EthanButte. In any given company, for example yours, not all customers arecreated equal, so we need to know where, when an in whom weshould be investing. Today's episode does something a little bit unique. Will putcustomer experience in a financial context. Our guest entered the tech field around therise of the DOTCOM era and she found it a couple of software and techcompanies at that time. For the past six and a half year she servedin it director roles at the Warton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Wartonof course, is consistently ranked as one of the top business schools in theworld and in fact US News and World Report has it at number one inthe two thousand and twenty rankings. Just over a year ago she became thecofounder and Executive Director of Wart and interactive, where they're on a mission to transformeducation with interactive platforms and simulations. So I hope we'll get into that. And she and I have something surprising in common. We've both coauthored andAmazon number one best seller in the customer relations category. Her book is calledthe customer centricity playbook. Sarah Tom's welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thankyou so much for having me. Is a real pleasure. Good I'm reallyexcited to get into this customer centricity concept in the playbook in particular. Butwe'll start with the definition of customer experience. What comes to mind when I saythat phrase to you? So for me, customer experience is really thatlast inch or that last layer that the customer is really able. You're surfacingall of your expertise, your goodies, your your secret sauce to your customersand it's really what the customers get to touch and experience. I hate touse the word experience in the definition, but it really is how you kindof bring it together and it's sort of when you think about like an artistputting together an oil painting and all those layers that go into really what thatfinal esthetic might be. I love it. It's got that front of House component, but the way that you drew in the painting at the end thereis like there's so much in there and a lot of it you can't see. It's the foundation for what comes over the top of it. So good, love it. I'm going to resident. Have you defined customer centralcity? I'mjust going to read the definition in it's kind of breaks into three partsand then have you just kind of break...

...that down a little bit and givea little bit more context to it. So in Customer Centricity, your coauthor, Peter Fader, define customer centricity as a strategy that aligns the development anddelivery of a company's products and services with the current and future needs of itshighest valued customers in order to maximize these customers long term financial value to thefirm. Kind of break down those elements a little bit. It's a strategy. There's alignment are current and future needs of highest value customers and then maximizingthat over time. Yeah, so one of the biggest shifts with customer centricitycompared to the more traditional approaches to not just marketing but also financial strategy andmanagement, is really shifting your focus from looking in the rearview mirror, whichis, how did we do last month? What are our profits? What wereour customers doing in the last quarter, the last year, etc. Soreally looking at kind of the top line or bottom line. And whatcustomer centricity does is it now? It makes you look through the front windshield. It's leveraging all of that amazing past data with respect to your customers andthen thinking about how you can leverage those insights and draw ideas for how thosecustomers are going to perform, those ones that stay with you, how futurecustomers who come to you, who behave similarly to your existing customers, howthey might re form, and then how do you align all of your tacticsand functions and other strategic goals so that you're you're investing appropriately depending on thelifetime value of those individual customers? I would also say that, you know, I've been working with Pete now for six years we've developed an incredibly deeprelationship with respect to customer centricity. You know, obviously coofering a book together, creating a really elaborate simulation together, and I would venture to guess thathis definition from his first book to now has also changed, just like weall, you know, evolve over time. And he would also be saying thatit's not just all about your high value customers, it's what you dowith those, those mid and low tier as well. That's all part ofthe customer centric strategy just as much as what you're doing with your high valuecustomers. Yeah, I love it. Again, for folks listening, thebook is called the customer centricity playbook and there's a really great passage in thereabout this customer portfolio which which kind of speak specifically to that evolution of thedefinition that you just offered. There's that, you know, it's more than justthe high value, it's everybody, and so how do we manage thistogether? So, before we go on, I would love for you to knockdown because I'm sure this book, just in the title and in thephrase Customer Centricity, you know there are a lot of misconceptions, in mythsaround it. When the first book was released and I'm sure some of thosewere kind of cast on to this because of a similar title. What aresome common myths and miss misconserned actions when people hear customer centricity? Yeah,and people actually say this all the time.

He wished that he had used abetter term than customer centricity, because the problem is, as it soundslike, it's just putting the customer, the customer, at the center ofeverything you're doing, and customer centricity is really quite the opposite. Will notbe opposite, but the first thing about customer centricity is really recognizing and celebratingHeterogeneity, recognizing that not every customer comes to you the same way, withthe same Batin propensities. You know their propensity to stay, to spend,their love for you, their willingness to go through the gates of hell.You'll hear peace say that quite frequently. So customer centricity is not about customerservice, it's not about amazing customer experience, even it collaborates with those ideas,it accentuates those ideas, but it really is about being more data drivenand surrounding your your strategy and your values around this idea of customer lifetime valuereally starting with CELB and Hetergeneity in the first place. Love it for folksdon't have a clear picture of their own CLV, or LTV, is it'ssometimes referred to. Were talking about lifetime value of the customer. We're acouple easy ways to get going in getting a good approximation of your of yourCLV. Absolutely it's as simple as beginning with understanding recency, frequency and monetaryvalue, the old RFM. So if you can start with sort of understandinghow often your customers are coming and spending with you, how much they're spendingwith you, and you know how when was the last time they came,this can really be the basis of the beginning of a model. What itis with respect to Clb, though, is you're then trying to see,okay, let's look into the future and can we start to predict whether thosecustomers are going to continue spending at the same RFM based on sort of thepredictors that other others like them have been doing? There's a bit of statisticalanalysis in there. I will also say that there are tremendous resources open sourcerest sources out there as well, and we do speak about this in thebook. You know, this our model that Pete has. It's open source. There are also new companies coming up all the time that are getting betterat doing clb calculations. Am I oversimplifying it to say that a recurring revenuemodel or a subscription model, it might be a little bit easier to dothis, because you spoke to say, see a grocery or a bookstore,not Amazon, or even Amazon right like I go to Amazon a certain numberof times. I haven't been there in a certain while. When am Igoing to come back? I mean that's kind of in that answer you justoffered. You know, if someone is one thousand nine hundred and ninety ninea month recurring, how does that differ in terms of is it easier todo lifetime value in that scenario? Absolutely,...

...in fact, if you want toget very specific about this, there are two different calculations use for subscriptionversus or nonsubscription models. So you're completely right there, Ethan. There ismost certainly a problem. It's difficult to know, you know, is thiscustomer who came and bought a cup of coffee from me yesterday going to comeand buy that, you know, another cup of coffee from me tomorrow.It's much, much easier if you know that a customer who has just calledup and said I want to cancel my service, you know that they havegone for sure, versus somebody who came and bought a pair of jeans fromyou last season. Are they going to come in and buy, you know, their spring stuff from you in the coming season? So it's most certainlymore complex, but not impossible. Awesome. I want to go quickly through afew just kind of jump out ideas that I think will be interesting intriguing for people. I don't intend to summarize this book, which I'm sureis a summary of years of work, as you've already suggested, but Ido want to get into a couple of these ideas, so I'll just throwout some words and just, you know, give me, give me your thoughtson that. Demographics and Personas as antiquated and flawed. Yes, sothis was a fun chapter to write and our publisher and editor really loved itas well, because it was just ideas that they hadn't even thought of andtheir day to day work and ones that you know I I've been working now, you know, in the Technology Industry for over twenty five years. Wedo use personas for sure when we're developing software and APPS for our different typesof customers and and it is certainly flawed. It's you know, it's a veryblunt instrument for what you're trying to do, given how much data wehave and how quickly that data shifts and changes. So a big part ofyour clv calculation is seeing what happens to those clbs for each cohort over time, because that shifting and changing. If you're working with a persona, thatpersona is less likely to shift and change in line with that data. Theother problem we have as humans is we're really flawed, you know. Welook at each other. There's a lot of unconscious buyas going on and wefill in the gaps, you know, and so we're saying, Oh,you know Debbie, housewife, or you know Susan Professional, and that's supposedto represent an entire classification of customer. And is that cust customer representation reallyaccurate? You know, and I think if you were to go further andreally explore who those customers are with the data itself, you're not going tocome up with necessarily somebody who adheres to a certain skin color or age ordemographic or or you know whatever. So if someone listening is operating based onus, let's say generic personas, they cut their primary customer base, intheir prospect base, into like four stripes, right like you just offered susie homemakeror something. You know, what is one step that can be takenout of kind of generic blunt not particularly...

...useful because it's so overly generalized.What's a step that we can take out of that? Well, probably takingaway the skin deep aspects of those individuals that you're trying to represent in thepersona like that. That really is, you know, the mistake, becausewhat happens when you start to be attractive to a whole new demographic and you'renow you're actually cutting yourself short. So I would say step one, justgeneralize that if you need to use a persona called Persona A, and makesure that you're explicit with what persona a represents, like maybe there are characteristicsaround gender and age that do fall into that, that do happen to correlateto that persona, and that's fine, but don't necessarily then create this entirepersonality around it. That isn't going to shift and change with the data.So that would be my number one suggestion. Great there, and you've already kindof referred to this, but I love to talk about it more becauseit's such a big and important idea in it underpins the entire customer centricity approach, which is there is no such thing as, and I'm air quoting here, the customer. You already did a drive by, but I think it'sworth doubling back on. Yeah, we hear this all the time and thoseare really put together. Are Two dirty words for me and Peter. Wedon't like to hear because, again, it's generalizing. It's basically saying we'regoing to come all this amazing customer data together and we're just going to comeup with an average. And we know that when we take averages of anythingthat it represents nothing. So if you're taking an average of a clb whichis really really high and one that's really really low, you're going to endup in the middle and you're not going to really be aligning your strategies andyour efforts to either. So that's what we're talking about is getting way morelook laser focused about what you're doing when you're investing in your different strategies.So the customer should not exist, and in fact Peter is worked with anumber of industries and companies where they've made it, you know, actually havinga swear jar set up so that anybody who starts to refer to their customerhas to stick a dollar in that jar. Nice. There's so many ways thatthat could be used, because I'm sure would fill up pretty quickly,especially is as a company's trying to make this cultural and practical shift in theway that they look at, generically speaking, their database. Last one here onthis kind of words response. I thought one of the best stories inthe book for me to understand what customer centricity isn't isn't and some steps wecan take going forward was that starbucks example. Right. So, you know,to go back to the myth and misconceptions like Oh, starbucks, ofcourse their customer centric. They write names on cups and you know, they'revery customer Orient did, but that's not what this is about. Historically theyhadn't been customer centric, but they made a few strides. Can you talka little bit about how they historically have not been customer centric and some ofthe stuff they're doing now that starts to...

...fit that mold a little bit.Yeah, I know, it's it's great time they actually with that question.So I just had a conversation with starbucks pre prior CMO and she said thatwhen Pete's first book came out, where he really did talk about how notcustomer centric starbucks has, basically starbucks was like, crap, what do wedo with this? And she said, I think we should pick up thephone and call him. He's right, let's start the conversation, and sothat did start a number of conversations to help starbucks along the way with becomingmore customer centric. So where they began was, yes, very friendly.You definitely feel like you know you're being well taken care of in their stores, but when you go, let's say, from one on one city block toanother, there's absolutely it's sort of like you're shaking an Etra sketches you'rewalking that block. They have no concept that you are a customer and howvaluable you are and what you like to purchase, etc. Etc. Andthen when they launched their loyalty program they actually made a mistake in the beginningwhere they did not hook that loyalty to value. It was actually to thatthat frequency element of the RFM that I was talking about. So how manyare you purchasing from us? Not necessarily doing how much, and that wasthere. There, you know, big mistake that they did correct. Therewas a slight flipboard. Folks were a little bit upset and you probably rememberwhen the if you're a starbucks purchaser where they did make that shift, andbefore that shift people would say, Oh, can you just bring these up asseparate purchases and that would help with their loyalty. Now it really istied to to their value, which is fantastic. Such a good example.This idea that you know your your most common store note actually knows you byname, they actually know your drink, they greet you by name and it'sthis very relationship oriented thing. But you know, three blocks away or ifyou're, you know, traveling for Work and you're another starbucks, they don'thave any ideas. So just kind of closing that gap down such a goodidea and it was such as an easy example to understand. I loved it. So it's not just a playbook, it's also a manifesto. Talk aboutthe manifesto. What motivated that? Why create a manifesto around the movement?What are some of its primary elements? Yeah, so I talked about thisand it really is one of my favorite memories of writing the book with Peter. One thing about co authoring a book, and I highly recommend it to anybodybecause it really is an opportunity to check your blind spots and to challengeone another on kind of what you just sort of assume is the way tothink. So so many conversations that happened along the way as we were writingthe book, and one of the most memorable was when we hit the lastchapter, which we really wanted to end on this sort of call to ActionHigh Note. You know, and we recognize that we hadn't yet delved intoeverything of as happened in the organization itself...

...in order to become, you know, successful in their customer centric journey. So there is a culture element,there is a leadership and buy in and championship element, there's an approach toprocess change and, you know, making sure that you've got the support fromme, even like a project manager or program manager standpoint, because it ischange management and action. You know, when you're moving from product centricity tocustomer centricity. There has to be, you know, into the weeds.WHO's managing the pieces of data we need to chase and making sure that we'vegot a crm that can handle what we need, etc. Etc. There'sa lot of work to be done and the first version of the chapter,Pete and I worked away at it and I remember sitting in his office andwe kind of looked at each other and we were just like this stinks,it's awful, it's not what we wanted. It's terrible. We want this callto action. And so I have a very long commute home for Philadelphiaand I was sitting there and thinking about it and thinking about it and I'mlike, you know, what this reminds me of. Reminds me of whenI started out in technology and just you know, we were so excited aboutwhat we you know, what was coming our way in the with respect tothe opportunity that thecom was going to provide. And then in reality, what wewere faced with when we were creating software and creating these a mazing,amazing Internet technologies was we to follow these lousy processes. And so we reallyhave agile and the agile manifesto to thank for the big revolutionary changes that cameto technology and then, you know, quite frankly, or now everywhere youknow, they're pervasive. So I was thinking about that and I'm like,you know, I think a manifesto is what we need for customer centricity aswell. I think this is the time where, you know, people haveshort distensions pans. We need something that is just easy to understand, easyto kind of sum up what we're talking about in for simple points. Andif folks look at these points and adopt these points, then they'll be wellon their way. And so I scribbled up a manifesto and kind of,you know, trapes my way across campus the next day and went into Pete'soffice and he's like yes, this is it. So we started to workon the manifesto together and we got to the point actually repeat texted me andhe just test texted me a couple days later. So we're screwed up andI'm like, oh no, what did we do now? So I calledhim right away and he said, you know, I think this whole bookshould have been called the customer centricity manifesto. We should have started with a manifesto. Of course we were way too far along. We already had thecover of the book designed and everything else, but by that point. But whatwe really hope that this manifesto is that it will become the call toaction. You know that we really envision for the final chapter. Awesome.I will drop the link to the website that has the manifesto and anyone cansign it. I recommend reading the book...

...first so that you are very clearon what you're adopting, although the phrases around them are very clear in andof themselves, and we've already talked about a number of them. For example, the first point in the manifesto is customer heterogeneity. Over the average customeror, for our earlier conversation, over the customer. Are quotes right.So so the language years really simple, but I'll drop that. If youvisit bombombcom forward slash podcast, I write a blog post for all of theseand you can go visit there. I'll drop links to a lot of thethings that we talked about in this conversation. So if you're listening and you wantto check out the manifesto, it will be easy to access. Andof course it is a chapter in the book. So just you know,we did this a little bit earlier, but now that we have more context, you know, if someone's listening and they're thinking this sounds great. Ijust read the manifesto. I signed it. I believe in these things. Iwish we were thinking and working more this way inside my organization. Wherehave you seen it be successful? Like, what are a few ways to getstarted for successful implementation? For example? Is this coming out of marketing,or is this coming out of Admin and finances? is coming out ofa day to team? Is this coming out at like we're? Where haveyou seen the movement, let's call it this, this change management, isthis new behavior, in this new posture and practice? Where have you seenit emerge from inside an organization for successful uptake, besides the obvious one thatyou need executive buy in at some point? Yeah, I mean this is byfar my favorite question and in getting to interview so many great success storieslike electronic arts and the La Dodgers for this book, a pattern really emergedto me, which was number one. You have to start small, youknow, and all of the beginning, sort of those initial seeds for customercentricity all began with somebody having a gut instinct that something wasn't quite right.So a great example is EA, where they were spending just cross the line, twenty percent on marketing. Didn't matter what it was. Here's the money, go spend it, no idea if you know it's doing what it's supposedto be doing. And a few very, I mean not necessarily senior. Thesewere junior data analysts who said, you know, I think we canjust take a small amount of that and we can just do a very easyexperiment and start to really understand how we're spending those marketing dollars. And thatreally became the nucleus of what drove it now drives their customer centric strategy.So first and former most, identify a small experiment that's measurable, that isn'tgoing to, you know, lead to big issues if it fails. Youknow you want to fail fast and fail quickly and fail small. Number two, you need the data. So making sure that you've got support from eithersomebody on your you know, your data analytics team. I even had aconversation with a friend of mine who create you know, she's a small pottery. She makes her own pottery here in...

...the Westchester Pennsylvania area, and shejust read my book. She's like, I have so many questions. I'mlike, okay, let's let's hear them, Nancy. And her big thing wasshe has no data, you know, and so we just very, verysimply, we had, you know, a thirty minute conversation about what shecould start to map out, even in Excel, as a beginning point, because she basically treats all her customers the same. They're all highly valuableand she must give them all just as much time and just as much ofher as and so, even though that's, you know, maybe a simplistic example, that can really be applied into any business. So I would saystarting small and making sure you've got that data to both test your hypotheses andhelp to then grow from or incredibly important good recommendations. Really appreciate it.And you know, I'm sure people are in various stages of this. WhenI think about where we are at bombomb you know we're doing some of thesethings well, some of them not as well. We're not necessarily have alot of good data and we use it, but we're not necessarily using it exactlyin this way. That's that's prescribed. It's it's so I can imagine folkslistening are all ranges from pottery to, you know, fortune, one thousandcompanies that do have a full and proper data analytics function and it's justa matter of getting them coordinated in aligned. Let's switch gears a little bit.You're the cofounder and executive director of Warton Interactive. What was one ofthe sparks like, because you'd been with Wharton for five years at the time, what was one of the sparks to really get this going? What kindof led to the cofounding of interactive? So many things. So yeah,so I was brought on to the wharton school to really work with one ofthe things I'm very, very proud of at Wharton is our culture of interactiveteaching and learning. So there is not really a single class I can thinkof where that it's this passive experience where it's sort of stage on the stage. Our professors really, I think, are you know, there many reasonsfor why they are the the best in the world, but one is thatthey really give our students a chance to roll up their slaves and experience thetheory that's being taught in the classrooms and some of the best ways to bringthat theory to life and see it in practice is to create, sometimes simple, sometimes very elaborate, simulations and games that the students can interact with wherethey can see the tradeoffs with decisionmaking and they can really practice in a safeenvironment. It's sort of like a flight simulator for business, if you will. So the team I was running before at the Warton school is called thelearning lab and the Al West Junior learning lab, and we that team hasbeen around since one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and had created a numberof really, you know, best in class business simulations over the course ofthe time. And while I was there I started to notice, you know, being sort of this outsider to the higher education space, I started tonotice the number of sort of impediments and...

...things that sort of didn't sit rightwith me from a technologists standpoint. Number one is just the complexity of thelanguages that you need and bringing together the expertise to actually create these these simulationsis very, very hard and takes a long, long time and cost alot of money. And so what it also does is it starts to createa US in them. So it's one thing being the Warton school or theHarvard Business School, etc. We have the resources, but as I startto go around and talk to, you know, an other conferences and suchanother business schools, I started to realize that there really was like, youknow, I was kind of talking to dead air, like it was likethat's really nice area, you can do that at Warton. We just don'thave, you know, the resources to be able to create something similarly,even though we have faculty who have tons of great ideas and would love tobe doing this. So expense, expertise, all these other things that sort of, you know, it's not a democratic approach to education, which alsodoesn't sit well with me. And also the University of Pennsylvania was founded bya quaker. We really do believe in these, you know, these quakervalues. So as I started to work, I developed an amazing relationship with ProfessorEther Molik, who has written books on gaming. He brings in alot of things, from VR to other Games into his classrooms and we startedto work on a number of different platforms, which meant that we were able tocreate elaborate, hyper realistic experiential learning that we could do actually quite andexpensively and this, you know, this experience that we incubated and these thingsthat we started to create at the learning lab, we realize that we reallyhad something that we could, you know, expand and start to offer to theworld, and so that's what we've been doing. We decided to keepthe learning lab focused on Warton Faculty and what they're doing in Warton classes.We didn't want to kind of, you know, take over any of thatand make sure that that, you know, remains preserved. And Morton Interactive hasbeen created to develop these platforms that we can share, quite literally,with any educator all of the world. We're really, really excited about it. Awesome. That was one I follow up questions is, who is thecustomer of Warton Interactive? You know, is it it other educational institutions?Are are companies taking this on? You know, as companies, are,you know, investing more in development as a way to a have a betterteam, but be also probably increased for tension of the best employees? Likewho is subscribing to say the customer centricity simularation in some of these other toolsthat you're providing? Yes, for sure. So really our customers, learners learnersand educators, and I would say I mean cut the customers in tristitysimulation is a great case and point where this has become a catalyst for somany organizations. You know, we played it with major social media organizations,to banks, to you name it.

Are using a customers inristy simulation toreally help as sort of bringing together cross functional teams, and that was thepoint I've got to make earlier with your question. Is another element you needin order to be successful as making sure that you have cross functional teams sittingat the table, and that's what we do with the simulation. We makesure that we set up these very diverse teams that are all working together throughthis day long experience and by the end we're really talking about what specifically arethe small experiments you want to run after this experience today. What impediments doyou foresee? What are the internal stakeholders and the external stakeholders that you're goingto need to reach out to and start to bring along to make sure thatthis journey is successful? So absolutely our goal is to bring this sort ofWarton approach to interactive learning, quite literally, to the world. Great before wewrap, I would love to know a little bit more on yours,about your experience. You're involved with the women in text summit. Women intech is something that we talked about here at bomb and have done some,you know, smaller scale events around it because it's such an important thing.But talk about your passion for women in Tach, like what is the problem? What are some solutions and what has been your experience over the past twentyfive years? Oh, yeah, I mean just to try to sum upa question like that. Yeah, so, can you give me the summary ofthe last twenty five years? Absolutely, no problem. So, I meanhere's one of the problem. Like, just looking statistically, we are thethe number of women in tech is dropping every single year, you know. So I think we're hovering around twenty three, twenty two percent and dropping. And one of the reasons, one of the contributing factors to that isit's not that there are necessarily less women or women are leaving the tech field, which is happening, but so we're men for whatever reason. But it'sbecause so many new tech jobs are coming on to the market place and we'rejust not got the numbers that are helping to fill them where we need tobe. And so what I really believe is that we have a marketing problem. We are not great at selling technology and technology focused jobs to our girls, to our middle school girls. That's where we're seeing the dropout happening.So instead of glass ceilings, we're talking about glass walls. I think thatwe do have a problem where a I call it this Programmar, you know, this kind of culture of men who are coding away and you know,and that's sort of like the face of what a lot of people believe beingin a technology job is about, when it's not. You know, there'ssuch I mean basically, if you don't know technology, you're kind of yourkind of screwed in this day and age. But if you're interested in this field, it is highly creative. It you can really redefine and keep redefiningyourself as you become interested in different paths.

I know I have an other womenand it's a it's also an opportunity to really be able to have worklife balanced. You know, I have four kids myself. I feel likeI've been able to really, you know, hold my foot down on the gaswhile also being able to balance work life as well. So lots andlots of problems, just as far as I think, just attracting women andgirls into this amazing, dynamic field in the first place and marketing to thenothing next layer of immediate employment, but getting farther upstream than that so thatthere's awareness and passion for years prior to completely yeah and are another problem isis a lack of good role models. You know, you see the Lawnmusk, you see apples, see you know, you see all these amazing, quitefrankly, white men in the field and you don't necessarily see the voicesof the incredible women who are just doing also wonderful work and are innovators andare pushing the field forward. So I think that's the piece that we reallyneed to start working on. Really important observation. That's one of those things, you know, just going to the role models, that's one of thosethings that is easy just to overlook or whatever in this part of an unconsciousbias that's built is like these are the kinds of people that do these thingsand get on these magazine covers and, you know, get the feature storieswritten and that we pay attention to and that we model ourselves after. Soreally, really good stuff. They're relationships, Sarah, are our number one corevalue here at Bomba. So I always like to give you the opportunityfor spending time with us and sharing so many great insights. I love togive you the opportunity to thank or mention someone who's had a positive impact onyour life or your career and just to mention to a company that you feelhas given you great customer experience. Oh, great, great, great question.So I really want to thank Peter Fader, my co author. Sofirst of all, I am the first non wartant faculty to be given theincredible delightful role of being able to coauthor a book with a Warton Faculty.So I feel like, you know, he's allowed me to be a trailblazerfor other thought leaders to, you know, have their voices heard, and hehas just been an incredibly thoughtful and caring and supportive co Creator in allthe things that we've been working on together. So my hats off really to keepfader completely. As far as a company that I really enjoyed interfacing with, I'm not necessarily the most stylish human being, given the how busy Iam all the time, and I have really enjoyed stitch fix they are acompany I just started to become a customer of earlier this year. They haveup to my style game and I also really enjoyed listening to those. Apodcast with the founder on how I built this, about how she really startedfrom data and has built this company from spreadsheets on up, based on dataabout our customers and their preferences and all...

...that, and and so far,so good. I really really love the product. Great example and, bythe way, how I built this excellent, excellent podcast with so many great brandsand companies on there, and stitch fix. That's actually the second mentionon this podcast of stitch fix for that blend of human touch and tech touchand blending those two really well to give you a truly personalized or even personalexperience. So really good recommendation there, Sarah. How can someone connect withyou with Wharton Interactive check out the book. If people enjoyed this, how canthey keep going? Oh well, first of all, thank you somuch for having me. This has been such an enjoyable talk. Probably thebest way is linkedin. If you're looking to connect with me. I'm alsoon twitter at Sarah e Tom's and then I on our interactive dot Warton dotyou pend Ed website. There is an opportunity where you can reach out toa there as well, and we'd love to hear you through any and allof those channels. Awesome, Sarah. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate what you're up to. I hope that this is the foundationof a movement where people can look back, just as you look back on theagile manifesto and what that meant to you at the time, that folkscan look back and say, I remember when. Really appreciate it so much. I'll link up everything you mentioned there in the Post that goes up atbombombcom slash podcast. I wish you a great afternoon and thank you again foryour time. Likewise, thank you. This is brilliant. Really appreciate it. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some ofthe benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easyto do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book.Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learnmore in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks forlistening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. ContinueLearning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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