The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

4. Will You Still Be in Business in 5, 10, 25 Years? w/ Joseph Jaffe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Businesses are just like people. They must stay healthy and agile, or watch their enterprise arteries harden through apathy and face an early death.

Charles Darwin said, “It is not the strongest of species that survives nor the most intelligent, but the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

The key to survival is transformation and reinvention.

Thus says Joseph Jaffe, the “admiral and co-founder” of The HMS Beagle, which is a strategic consultancy whose name is a nod to the exploratory ship Charles Darwin was on when he developed the theory of evolution. The HMS Beagle helps clients navigate the journey to survival because everyone is in the survival business nowadays.

The business model of business isbroken most notably the idea, the very thing that helped businesses grow,which was size and scale and economies of scale being a multinational globalcorporation and taking advantage of all those efficiencies is now the verything that is rangling. You know the Alba tross around its neck you're. Listening to the customerexperience podcast a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businessesrestore a personal human touch throughout the customer. Life Cycle,get ready to hear Hou sales, marketing and customer success, experts surpriseand delight and never lose sign of their customers. Humanity here is yourhost beef and beaute. Hey thanks. So much for clicking playon this episode of the Customer Experience Podcast, I am so excited tobe joined by someone. WHO's, had a significant influence on my career inthe way that I look at my work and look at the business world in life ingeneral. I'm going to do medium side set up here, so you're gonna have towait just a second to hear from Joseph Jaffy see I just spoiled it, but Clutrain manifesto flipp, the funnel six piels of separation. Trust agents,content rules- these are books that had significant impact is. I was trying totransition in imagining what my life would look like as social media, newmedia came up and Joseph Jaffy was one of the big voices in that for me,longtime thought, leader and new media social media customer experience,Marketing Innovation, currently the admiral and cofounder of the HMS Begle,which is a strategic consultancy and, of course, a really smart nod toCharles Darwin in the survival of the fitist, and I think survivalis going tobe a big being here today in the episode. I also really feel like Josephthat I got to know you through your conversations with Mitchjol on sixpitels of separation. Great long running, podcast and you're across thepond, they said was that what it was called across, the sound close, soundsound is even a better one and then author of five books, including lifeafter the thirty second spot, which for me, I was living around the thirtysecond spotworking in local television, and you drew a future for me that Icould identify with immediately flip the funnel, which of course is. I hopeto get into that later in the conversation and the brand new built tosuck that long introduction Joseph Jeffy thank you and welcome to thecustomer experience podcast the AV. Thank you so much for having men. Ofcourse, you know I got this book yesterday. I laid my hands on mybeautiful fifth baby yesterday, so it is so new and so current and there'sthere's an amazing. I use the phrase baby by the way because they say thatwriting a book is like birthing, a child which of course I wouldn't knowfirsthand, but I actually spoke to a female author and she said it'sactually more painful than burning a child. So that's why I think it's theright analogy. aother thing just two other things based on what you said:one is in rattling off. You know six pixels and content rules, I'm obviouslythinking of you know I'm thinking of people that I've that have theprivilege of knowing working with you know CC, Chapman and obviously Mitchjoland Chris brogen. I also remember that, where I was when I read clue: TrainManifesto Myself, I read it quite late and a lot of it was kind of it wasoutdated. You know talking about, like you know, lists, and this serves Sur.You look tat it not as a this is not current anymore, that's not relevant,but but from a historical standpoint, and that's always been my goal inwriting books that you don't read something that you go. This is this isso one thousand nine hundred and ninety five or this is so more importantly,this so two thousand and eighteen or two thousand and seventeen you wonsomething thate can become a timeless classic. That's always been my goal andthen the finlittle thing to tell you is because you just said all these thingshave made me think Oa Hald it across a...

...sound. We called it across the soundbecause Steve Rebell was in Long Island and I was in Westbort and we weseseparated by the Long Island, sound and obviously the playon sound, Hoar audiopodcasting. It's been it's weird because you know it only lastedthirteen episodes. I think and Steve went back to micro, pisuasion and theneventually I rebranded that there's Jeffy juice, but you know it's still inthe lips an string across the sound. I still have atremendous affection towards it, so good and so for all the people who havenot read clue, train manifesto and some of the other stuff we just ran through.This is just the groundwork for for web, for you know directto consumer, forconsumers having voices and we'll get into all of that, and I think it's kindof the groundwork for where you are today with built to suck. But let'sstart where we always start here on this podcast with customer experience.Please give me your thoughts, definition characteristics when I saycustomer experience. What is that conjure for you? So I love the questionand I actually think I actually think I defind it in inflip the Funal, and I think I calledit the SOM you know, because I tryd to use the same syntax as how branding is defined and thiswhole idea- and I think I called it- you know the some time the sum totalthe collection of every single touchpoint that connectswith that touches that interacts with that effects or influences the customerdirectly or indirectly, and I wanted to be quite clear about that. You knowdirectly indirecty. It's also influenced by this idea. You know recusmkenna wrote a piece called marketing. Is Everything and I've always believedthat everything again thetr touches or affects the customer should beconsidered to be marketings responsibility. But of course marketinghas become almost like a you know: A bosted Stepchild TA laughing stock.There are so few seats on the board at the board level by the CMO as well, andso we've seen how marketing has lost its credibility and its influence. Butof course, customer experience as almost a, and it is a higher order thancustomer service right service fits into experience and, as I'm sure we'lltalk about today, experience fits into obsession ohlove. It that's a reallynice preview, but let's go back to to build a suck. The subtitle, inevitabledemise of the corporation, very provocative, as is built to suck ingeneral, provokes a lot of curiosity just in general. What are the primaryfactors that play? What do you think about when you think about the demiseof the corporation? You know what are the main ideas under that, so that werlthere's so much toinpack from even you know just that statement. So, first ofall, let's start it for the fact I was asked. Why not call a bilt to fail andand my response it's a little PPOSE Flippindan nauty, but it's, but I feelfailures too good for corporations, because you know entrepreneurs get it.They understand the power of the pivot. They understand how failure should beembraced. They understand how done is better than perfect, and I felt thatyou know just say bill to Fal for corporations. Is like you don't evendeserve to fail, because, because you're worse than that, and then youknow the other part of it- is the inevitable demises of the corporationdartardod an how to save it. With a question Mok, you know so the lookagain, I'm a gecomer. You know I love. I look at my writing as art in a sense,and you know when apples es a whole idea of thing different and you knowand that whole idea. So I wanted to like, of course, any of with a questionlike why a question mark is cramatically incorrect. The way I wroteit and the whole point is, I don't know that the corporation can be saved andand even if it can, corporations are their own worst enemy and ultimatelywill not be able to get out of their...

...way. I use a whole bunch of analogies,but the one that strikes me is the fact that that I have this chart in the book.It shows it's a timeline of history of civilizations over five tousand years s,the rise ind, the fall of the Roman, the Ottomand, the bizantine empire,there's naughty. Germany, even at the bottom riht an s ITL controversial isAmerica, you know, and every single one of those empires and civilizations haverisen and fallen. Not One of them has been able to out maneuvol outlost. Youknow the Surviv and Elergy I'll think our last out, you know Al Smart Timeand so how arrogant or we to believe that this corporat empire, there's onlyreally been around in earnest for a hundred years, give or take willsomehow be able to cheat time, and we've already seen you know. So I haveabout six or seven different data points I wanted to bring in this book,not only the Anecdotol wrighe, the paylisses, the seers as the toysarusses of the world, but the empirical and I have a ton of data. I was quiteclear about the fact that I didn't want to be alarmist and you know a lot ofpeople are citing information. That is actually not correct. So we hear thisone that seventy percent of fortune, five hundred companies fom one thousandnine hundred and ninety or gone fifty percent of Fortunae fivemen ancompanies from two thousand ire gone. That's correct but gone does not meandead, rid or bankrupt. It means not in the fortune five hundred anymore andwhat that really means ultimately and why this is so significant is the lossof market cap is the fact that that you know, even if they're, not in thefortune, five hundred anymore, boyaboy Os that mean that they've lost atremendous amount of momentum and growth and market capitization, butthere's a whole ton of them. And again I won't go into lit me of it because wecould be all day, but just the fact that the life span of the corporationhas dropped from seventy five to fifteen years in just fifty years. Youknow- and I actually went out and and and I was like wait a second I want. Iwant validation for that, and I found multiple sources, one of them mostrecentlis from the general stanny stanly moccristels new book Orde, ateam of teams. It's even coming up Fr from a general. So so the informationthat we have at our disposal says the cracks are evident and the demise is aparent I'll, give you one more and then and then I'll hand it back to you,which is over the last three years. Fifty one percent of Fortue fivehundred companies have had declining revenues. So the Rit- you know the YogiBarrowon said if you come to a fulk in the road take it. So I say: If therinings on the wall read it and if you read it, it's basically saying kind ofyou're on a one way track out of town unless you embrace your heresy, unlessyou adopt- and I've come up with my four growth pillar approach, and evenso, it's still may be too little too late. So that's my honest message. Thepoint is this: Isn't a fairy tell so that isn't necessarily a happy ending,so anecdotal and and evidenciary or quantified elements there and ecitingof a general by an Admiral, true titled Admiral? I didn't thinkabout that yeah, it's good. So obviously I think a lot of people areprobably not in your head going yeah. I can see that, oh, I get it oh gosh, Ididn't know that so go one step deeper there. Why is this the case? What arethe weaknesses, or even you know, to your inevitability, theyre, the fatalflaws of the corporation? I have a feeling that a lot of them connectspecifically to customer experience because c customers, ultimately, no,maybe not. That was a leading question, I'm wondering if, if customers dictatethe survival or if there's something...

...else, inherently wrong, there can y? UJust go to some of the weaknesses and fatal flaws yea and that relationshipto customers and whether or not customers can save this, so so you'vedone it. You've done a great, a really smart thing, but already connecting thegrowth color ultimately to the demise, and the reality is, if you kind of turnthem on their head every one of these four pillars, the kind of the reverseof them orthe. I think corollaries may be the writer, the writer, the morecorrect way to think about it. Is You know when you think of digitaldisruption, right custom, obsession, corporate citizenship and talengraserection? It should be true that all four of them are failing that theircorporations are failing in all four of them right now, which is why, byfiguring out how to adopt them or deliver against them, they might returnto growth, but actually thefor that I sigte in the book. I call him the fourhorseman of the Corpora Pocalypse and the first one. The first one is sizeright. Why did I call the book built to suck because Jshit many people havesaid it but Joshi who used to work for for for the agency that Shid founded?He said, let's see how big we can get before we suck recognizing that suckagewas inevitable with sizh. My hypothesis in the book is that twofold one, thebusiness model of business is broken most notably the idea, the very thingthat helped businesses grow, which was size and scale and economies of scalebeing a multinational global corporation and taking advantage of allthose efficiencies, is now the very thing that is rangling. You know theElba tross around its neck, so number one is sizes. Number two is age, andyou know I actually say in the book: I'm not an Agist, except when it comesto ananimate objects like a corporation. So the fact is a hundred yearscompanies that crow and Brag about a hundred years of history. They shouldbe looking at that as a liability, not an asset, because they they almostsurely will not be around in a hundred years time, and what I say in Baltisatis that if there is a cut or for me it's millennial, companies andYounghert, so born aften, thoanine, tunded and eighty, but the key is thateven those companies will suck it is inevitable. Yiu K A facebook alreadysucks, and then I have some right at the end of the book, some thoughts fromJeff bezos about Amazon and how ultimately Amazon is. You know I meanI'll just say it right now, Esir said to all his employees, you know afterthey had announced the winners of Hqtwo. Of course, now wivsince learns thatthey're pulling out of Long Island city. He said one day to we will suck one dayto Eden, say those words. He said one day we will fail one day we will gobankrupt and your job is to delay that for as long as possible. Brilliant. Mypoint is, if he can say, theabout Amazon, there is 't a single company onthis planet that is immune now the third is being a public company, and Italkd specifically about why Ilon Musk had a basically a nervous breakdown orjust smoked weed which were not doing. You know on the Joe Rogan experience,because you know visionaries don't like to be told what to do by externalshareholders and that readly gets into the the scourge of you know the what Icall it: The C CTDA corporate transmitted disease, Ris on an STD.It's a CTD. You know the short ter Mites this disease of short termitersof and in the fourth oneis culture and right now, of course, that's a hugeproblem in these companies, in terms of you know, creating a culture thattolerates and embraces failure that embraces the GIG economy. That knowshow to attract and retain employes as well and, of course, inherent ineverything you said knows how to serve customers better and what customersreally want in terms of value in terms of values, right value and values whichgets into corporate citizenship. So that's tying it al together and a bigRed Boath,...

...so go on Customer Obsession, so you'vereferred to the four pillars: Digital Disruption, talent, resurrection,customer cepsion and corporate citizenship, and you you already alisted them, but then also kind of unpackd them a little bit. Let's gojust because customers, in the name of it, going to customer session a littlebit. What? What is that one all about, and why is it one of you know if thereare four primary thrusts that are going to keep this corporation propped up foras long as possible, and I love that you site Jeff Besos on theinevitability of it, talk about custom recession in particular. What is that?What does that mean? What does it look like? How does e? How do you know whatare the signs of a corporation or a company, whether it be young or one ofthese? You know fifty sixty eighty year old companies, what is ta sign t atthat that a company is truly obsessed with customers? Well, you know it'sinteresting because I came up with that phrase independently and it was onlyafter the fact, as I was even editing the book that I actually saw in JeffBerzos's Day, one memo which encourage- and I do in the book- everyone to read-he actually uses the phrase. Custom Obsession and it just made me feel sogood that I've actually found several companies that have used that phrase. Ididn't. I actually love that because I didn't want to be like you know, let'scoin, all these new terms and hope they stick. I love the fact that there isequity in that because it is ultimately the truth right. You want to speak thetruth. You don't want to re reinvent the wheel here. Sometimes you just wantto be able to draw attention and shed the light on these universal truths aswell. So obsession for me is almost unhealthy. Maybe it is unhealthybecause it is a fixation. It is a at all costs, it's it's borderline. Beinga customer stalker. You know like without breaking the law, and you knowthere is a passion in there, but there's also a you know a PrimeDirectiv to use a little bit of a Giky Star Trek. You know analogy as well,and- and you know when I write that chapter- and I say you still don't getit and I can prove it. You know I wrote an entire book on it called customcalled flip the funal on customer. I called it then custom experience the Zand the are of zero. Zealoton and retension were dedicated to it. Iextended the thinking in this book. I almost felt like you know, I can onlydedicate one chapter, but I almost wanted to say just go back and readthese books. For God's sake, just read them because these books, you know,speak the truth. I guarantee you that you will walk away from from going backand brushing up on your flip, the final, an zero with actionable practical,pragmatic, you know and invaluable insilence, but it comes down to thistruth right, which is if eighty percent of our revenue comes from returningrecurring business, our customers, our etention Buckat. Why are we spendingtwenty percent of a or less of our total marketing dollars against thatrevenue contribution? And then, of course you take it one step further andyou say: Wait a second in bdcn, even more so indee, to be eighty percent ofthat revenue that pretention revenue is coming from twenty percent of thosecustomers, and you know now we talk about the whole ABM model focused nowon on. You know, somehow we woke up and said: Wait a second. We should treatour best customers better. You know revelation, you know, t the tabletshave been revealed, it's insane to think that only now we're kind ofrecognizing you know the fact that ultimately, we have been neglecting ourcustomers and, of course you know, for me, talent, resurrection is theinternal customer. We Hav an external customer and we have an internalcustomer and I'll just go back to to this whole notion, which is its still.I infuriates me. You know when you see companies offering promoroll offs anddiscount for first time buyers. You...

...know, as I often say your first time.Buyer is a stranger and your competitive conquest or switcher is aprostitute. They are a promiscuous customer which makes you a pump so justown it. You know you're courting strangers and prostitutes, and is thathow you want to bold, a business that is bilt to lost? No, that's how youbuold a business that's built to suck. So you know in this chapter I stilltalk about a whole bunch of things, pricethess experiences customer of themonth, customer funerals, but I also kind of talk about aiand. I think Ai,if you want like the role of twitter, should have been for customer serviceas opposed to you know our first direct to consumer president. I still believethat that's twitters amazing role. Now we have to be able to say there is ayou know, and there are specific roles that we need to think about in terms ofhow we engage and how we and technologies and ai for me is all about,surprise and delight and treating our customers better. So, as I say, thereis no a or I in customer, but perhaps there should be talk a little just another minute ortwo on ai, just close that loop, a little bit for people, are like Oh ai,okay, how yeah so so I have a very a little modelor little three step process that are created which corresponds to cruel wargrun, and I call it automation, augmentation and auguration, and in theyou know the whole idea of the to augurate is: is that Alchemy it's totransform? It's very kind of you know, cauldron, bubbling and and mystical,because that's when you know that's when all these incredible connections,that's when Watson starts to rear his ugly head et C or at least claim he isbecause he really just is a glorified weather forecaster. I think, but mypoint is that you know most of what we're calling ai right now is justautomation, let's be clear about that: dumb machines doing dumb people's workfor the most pot, replacing them because, like you know, because, ultimately it costs less to doso and less mistakes are made, I'm being a little cynical, but I don'tmean to be because at the end of the day you know. Certainly it is wrong andI'm not calling someone who wants to operator the tollbooth dumb. But I'msaying these were menial, mechanical tasks and certainly in some casesautomation has been great, especially in industries where you know theirfatalities and there's you know heavy industrial machinery, but that's allwe're doing we're calling at AI, but we're just looking really to firepeople and save on overhead and save US money. You know augmentation, on theother hand, is when computers, when machines and humans work side by side,and that's where I think customr experience can really and customobsession can flourish. You know these are a simple example. Sometimes of youknow, as I say, in zero, don't pay for attention pay attention. You know Irecently was out of four seasons. I checked into a four seasons and I waswith my daughter and were looking at colleges and when I called to make thereservation. They said it was heany special occasion, and I said yes, Ihappened to be visiting college close to where you were located and they endand they took a few. You know d. They asked me a few questions when I arrived,they look fat me and they said this must be your daughter. You must be soexcited to be visiting colleges. Now. I've had other experiences with thefour seasons where I ended up in my room with a big fruit bask, and therewas a handwritten note. That said, you know. This is your tenth time at thisfour seasons. N We wanted to. I wanted a personey. Thank you, a wasn't. Iprinted handwritten, no Drin wasn't the Dacota Fund, it was handwritten. Sothat's what happens when humans and machines work together as willingbedfellows and I'm still not even quite...

...sure that that's a I in a sense, butthere 's. Certainly this this belief and I think recognition that in a worldof big data, you know, as I wrote, in zerobig data. Big Dummy right, big data has forceer, has made us dumber, notsmarter, but when we can actually figure out how to create connectionsand make connections and create these caus or relationships and inferences,that's when magic happens and, ultimately, if you go back to marketingone on one, you know we're in the business of surprising and delightingright where in the business of under promising and over delivering, andthat's where I think ai can play this incredible role. That was awesome th.You know you just really went deep into one of my personal primary motivationsfor going this direction with with the customer experience podcast in general,which is you know, personalized is not personal that there's a differencebetween those two and what you just did there. Is You let the machinepersonalize and you let the human or you walked out an example where thehuman makes it truly persona? Where someone looks you and looks yourdaughter in the eye greet you warmly and sincerely human to Human Ito Eyface to face andcrease a truly personal moment in I, and I just want to- and Ijust want to add, like another thing that I said, which is you know, let'sput the custom in customer. You know one of the big case studies in theirchapter as Netflix. You know there is a great quote from one of the neflixexecutives, which says we have thirty. Three million versions of Netflix andAmazon has done similar with their personalization of their home page. Sothat's where technology can help, which is you know. I totally agree with whatyou said and I just you know those two buzzwors ride, personization andcustomization or thrown around, but do we really understand what they mean andare we really delivering against them? A not in the way? Those two companiesyou mentioned are hey, we've already, driven by a little bit flip the funnel,which again for me at that point. In my career, I read it maybe two or threeyears after it was published and it's coming up on its tenth birthday by theway Idon't know Ifyur Gonno trow a party for it, because to me it's foundational ent. What'sthat should yeah totally forwe you come to it yeah. I will absolutely try. Ifyou give me an invitation, I will show up at it flip the funnal birthday party.The retention is acquisition, customer Serviceas, a company's real deferetdifferentater for the future and really this kind of the rise of influencers, butnot in the way we talk about it now, which gets a little bit back into theprostitute and pimp metaphor you're talking about but real influencers trueadvocates and o social media gives them a voice. thes is just some of the keythemes: ND. It was veryfod looking yeah and- and I actually coined this term,which I don't even think I R it's funny the marketing botire, which has becomeso. You know really IIT's blown me away in terms of how it's been received, anadopted by Fortun five hundred companies. I just threw it in right atthe end and it was actually jeremia o Yang who looked at his like. This isreally good Joe, and I was like, Oh you should I put it in like because I'm itwas it was he day before I had to hand the manuscript in so thanks. You O myand I really developed that whole thinking in zero. So a lot of thethinking kind of continued into you know and through zero, but one of themalso his this idea of the super consumer rid. Who is the super consumer?The super I mean, I'm telling you if companies just do this they're going towin right, which is when you look at the people that buy you a lot and thosewho talk about you a lot to a lot of people when you combine influence withactual business right with with actual patronage. That is the most forgetabout loyalty. That is the most influential incredible customerreferral. So, like you know, this is the thing that we still missed, evenwith with my second book during the conversation with whom who do we wantto just have these conversations with...

...with our customers, with our loyalistswithout zealouts without advocates, and so the super consumer is theinfluential customer, because all you got to do. They've got the megaphonejust get out the way and let him talk, let him celebrate and- and that's alsoanother thing that I brought into into bultisack this idea of pricelessexperiences. You know the ability to give our customers things that moneycon by that's, why it's priceless, so I have a little photo in my bookexploiting my child. My son, you know, ended up walking onto the field with aNew York City, Football Club game and an NYCFC game. Those things you can'tpay for them. There's no price tag to buy to be a mascot, you get it throughloyalty and through loyalty points, and so you know that's that's what happenswhen you connect all the dots and you're giving people these things thatare just wow. They will never forget those moments as long as they live, butthey might forgive you, for you know you messed up. The product was t. Youknow. I spoke a lot about recently about what happened with Zion when HesNike Shoe broke, you know playing for Duke in a college, Boskeball game. Youknow, Nike Might Get away with it once, butexcuse the Pun if they stlip up again they're dead. So the thing is, we willforgive, you know just like our spouse, justlike our our you know our clients or ther relationship whereever. Then wewill, if we've earned that credibility if we've earned that integrity if we'veearned their trust, we'll always have a second chince, but we may not alwayshave a third Chince, and I think that kind of brings it together as well,which is which is the super consumer. We need to foster those and find thosepeople and when you plug them into the actual RN D engine and create thatVoice of the customer Innovation Loopi'm telling you you know it's likeit's weird that that sounds weird, but but like anybody. Just listening tothis interview, like a corporate executive, I'm tenling- you just listento this podcast and do everything we're talking about, and I promise you youwill be successful. You will return to growth. The stuff is not necessarilyrocket science. It's kind of common sense and now is the time to act,because you know, as I said, these large corporations that house you youknow and give you this full sense of security. They are failing and they aregoing to fail increasingly so enforced rent over great. I want to you know before we kind ofbutton this up a little bit and it's been amazing, as we talke before we hitRecorda, I'm sure we could go a lot longer E. I know we could becauseyou're you already spoke to the continuity like your body of work overthe past fifteen years, or so. It is all one continuous evolved story, I'mjust going to tie back to the beginning, tie back to built to suck theinevitability of it. This that there's some life cycle that just like a humanbeing in a human body. If you treat your body poorly and you execute poorly,you don't exercise, you eat like garbage you're, going to pass soonerthan someone who takes care, so you can, you can extend, but there's aninevitability and we all are day always arrives to die, and so it's interesting with you know with theHMS Begl. The Darwin Reference, which is a biological reference, is asurvival of the fittest. There's this biological undertone to thisconversation, do you think, and in the same thing with civilizations right socivilizations are human constructed in a way, but they also are organic andhave a little bit of a life of their own. Have you thought on that theme likethis thing that ties the human life span with a civilization life span witha corporate life span? What is the biological underpinning here? Have youaveany thoughts on that? Yet I mean...

...totally you're totally on the mark. I'mBob Ladis WHO's, the Co of the Association of national advertisersthey're, the body that you know kind of you know houses all of these seniormarketers at these corporations. So I'm just reading his endorsement. He saidIl just you know. He said this time. He's brilliantly demonstrated howcompanies ages are just like people. Corporations Must Stay Young, SitimAgil or face the outcome of an early depth, so he's even taking this idea ofpremature death right. This is you know this is cloge, orderies and and incredibly high levels of cholesteroland so on and so forth. Dorw An said: It is not the strongest of species thatsurvives nor the most intelligent, but the one that is the most adaptable tochange. So part of this anecdote is changed. You know, and this and part of it is transformation andreinvention. Like you know, I a little bit of fun in the book which is af thetime apple and both Amazon had become the first trillion dollar market capcompany. So I said well, we need a term right. We call Bilitt billine Yin abillion dollar marketcap companies UNICORNS. So I think I came up withPhoenix and the other one I was thinking of was Hydra, which was morethan just kind of o death to everybody else. But the Phoenix the interestingthing about the Phoenix is an Adenta bit of research. Is there's really onlyone at any given time and it's funny because apples Brouke of Sinse, but Ithink yes, I mean absolutely so you know, with age and with size, what'sreally happening from a cultural standpoint, is legacy and encumbencyand resistance to change and bad habits and silos. In fact, that was that thatwas the the premise. The premise was that large companies today have become.You know too big, too political, too dysfunctional to Silod. You know torisk averse there slowing down when the world is speeding up and that's theessence right. They are moving in a different direction to mementum tochange, and that's why I mean it's a very simple way of just saying like.Ultimately, this is the road to the future and they're on the road out oftown in the exact opposite direction, all right, quick, personal opinion herefor you, because this also is a biological thene that I swears not morethan two steps away from where we, where we are right now, biohacking andSilicon Valley, blood transfusions with young people's blood. You know thetypes of things that folks are doing to try to extend human life. I T ink, Ibelieve, there's a gentleman who'Sho's announced formally that he's Ot a questto live to two hundred or something any personal thoughts or opinions on these.Some of these. What seem like over the top efforts to extend human life? Oh myGod that is, and- and I use that phrase God- you know a humans playing God.That is not a question that that I expectid. To be honest, I mean listen,they're, two ways to look at it and I think it is kind of you either take a religious or completeagnostic or even an ats point of view. Right, one is is look how great we areand look look at all the tools that we have and by Golly we're going to use them all toto. You know just continue to saw close and closer to the sun right, likeICARUS, which leads to the second pod, which is at what point? Are we in factplaying God and and crossing the line mean my point of view, and you know Imean look at what happened with Teronos and there's been so much there's beenso much stuff in thes space. I think the inevitability in the reality. Youknow bringing it back as objectively as possible. Is it cannot be a bad thingthat in maybe not in our lifetimes, but our children said there will be a curefor cancer right we've seen it with HV, so the ability for us to cure diseaseis fantastic, and we should do more of...

...that. The ability to live to twohundred that's going to come at a price, and it just has to when you look atpopulation and overpopulation going back to corporate citizenship, Biactually talk about in the bookhow. You know I encountered I'm very familiarwith their organization, they've called called global citizen and they put onthis big concert and and who who started it. His whole mission is tomake poverty history by two thousnd and thirty. Well, what's going to happen,if we're living to two, I mean it's, just it's going to be insane right. Allthese mad meglamenia call. You know, overpopulator, remember the movie, theKingsman and all these manical, you know kind of villains, trying to cureit. Just it takes us down down a part that we may not get. You know get backfrom. Thank you so much for that diversion. I appreciate I'm glad. Icould surprise you. I think so you I'm excited to hear your answers toa couple standard closes that we do here because we're all aboutrelationships. You were so quick and so kind to respond to my inquiry. I sawthat that built to suck had been released. I saw your facebook postreached out and we did not set this up anymore than say sixteen hours ago so again we're all about relationships. Ilike to end these these conversations with your opportunity to think ormention a person. Who's had a positive impact on your life or on your careeras well as a company that you feel is doing and he've already named, severalso think of maybe one more who's doing customer experience the right way,who's really delivering for you. Well, I you know it's funny. I mean I think,I'm just going to point to people that are actually on the back of my book,Philip Cottler, Professor Philip Cottler, who you know I learnedmarketing and I was in spite. I didn't even know that I was going tospecialize. But when I read his book when I was a college I was like this is,who I am. This is, who I want to be Richar. Tobaccawila has always beenlike a role model and a mental one of the smartest guys. I know you know justjust incredibly succinct and cynical, but in a beautiful way and super superintelligent. You know those are two people that are even on the back of mybook and then you've got. You know. Other people like Chris Burgrave, whoused to be the the CMO of abnbev around Budwisel, their super boy advertisingbefore that he was a coke. I Tan the privilege of becoming really goodfriends with my ex clients who are now you know, consultants or whatever andbuilding relationships with marketers, and it was funny because at the backhis endorsement, he said, Jeffe may appear to be the highest sparrow ofParanoia, which you know if you, if you watch game of thrones, you know who thehighest barrow was and the reference and then I said to him: Wait Chris holdon a second. You know that the high sparrow basically got nuked by thewildfire. You know and him and one of hise disciples got kind of bond and hesaid well, that's the price of being a heretic and that's what you are. Butthen he does come back and calls me Andy Grove to point O, which is a muchbigger compliment. So I think you know the ability to cultivate theserelationships within the marketing community with thought leaders withexecutives and move together to move the industry forwrd. It's a collectivebody of people and conversations that have made them Olk on me. Awesome is, and is there anothercompany that that you feel like you know you cited the football club therein New York. I forget the hotel was at a rich Carlton. I was a well WITZColkins Gra to but like the four seasons yeah, I mean there many. There are manyexamples, but you know what I almost you know. One thing I said was I'mgoing to give you a lot of this. The expected companies right the Nikes, theapples e, the Netflix, the Amazons, but I want to explain to why we cite themall and the reasons why they've they've done so well, the other one isstarbucks. I've, just really really it's not just a great brand, buteverything from going back to the...

Tallen pod right, parttime, barristers,giving them full healthcare and and stock options and benefits andPeternity and maternity. This is the way to think about running and buildinga business, the starbacks experience and- and it is the one company that Iactually rite at the end of the book. I go through the four pillars and I showhow they're delivering against each one. So you know I'm paying o Marge to thecompanies that we admire, but I'm explaining to why we admire them andwhat they're doing right and what they're doing really really well and,of course, at the same time, calling out some of the companies that aren't Joseph Jeffy. This has been awesome. Isincerely appreciate your time. I value your insights. I love what you'vecontributed to just call ID the conversation at largein the way that you continue it. Congratulations on your fifth book. Ifsomeone wants to connect with you online or wants to check out built tosuck what ar some ways that people should connect with you. Thank you forasking the books website is built to Suckcom. That's when I knew it had tobe called that, because that I couldn't believe it was even available, so Bil osuck will actually give you a lot of stuff. Besides, obviously, pleasepreorder the book from Amazon. Do it early and often- and you can link to tothat from the side, but there's a lot of good stuff on that that website.There's the ability to download a piece of Ip that are crated called thesurvival planning canvas and the startup survival planing canvus, it'sfree, I didn't want to like you know, have people register. I want people tolive this and and build their survival plans. There's a lot of bonus contentthere and I'm starting a little blog as well, where I'll talk about companiesthat suck in companies that I'm placing on what I call death watch as well, sobilto suck es one place, an obvious pace, the HMS Beagle like alluding toDowin. We help our clients navigate the journey to survival because we believeeveryone is in the survival business nowadays and that URL is the HMS BGLCOMand then, of course, you know, I'm pretty much. Jeffy Gu s on every socialfal media platform, I have to admit, and the most active these days oninstagram. I just happen to kind of live this more o visual world andprobably the least active on twitter and facebook. They just have reallylost their shine as far as I'm concerned, but you know when somebodycalls me out good or bad. I typically know about it and I will respond to you excellent. I wouldn't expect anythingdifferent from you. I so appreciate your time. Thanks for going long onthis episode, I hope everyone enjoyed it and I bid you a great rest of yourday and a wonderful weekend ahead. Thank you. It was absolutely mypleasure. You are listening to the customerexperience podcast, no matter your role in delivering value and servingcustomers. Youre intrusting, some of your most important and valuablemessages to faceless digital communication. You can do betterrehumonize. The experience by getting face to face through simple personalvideos, learn more and get started. Free at Bom Bomcom you've beenlistening to the customer experience podcast to ensure that you never missan episode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visitBom bomcom. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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