The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

4. Will You Still Be in Business in 5, 10, 25 Years? w/ Joseph Jaffe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Businesses are just like people. They must stay healthy and agile, or watch their enterprise arteries harden through apathy and face an early death.

Charles Darwin said, “It is not the strongest of species that survives nor the most intelligent, but the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

The key to survival is transformation and reinvention.

Thus says Joseph Jaffe, the “admiral and co-founder” of The HMS Beagle, which is a strategic consultancy whose name is a nod to the exploratory ship Charles Darwin was on when he developed the theory of evolution. The HMS Beagle helps clients navigate the journey to survival because everyone is in the survival business nowadays.

The business model of business is broken, most notably the idea the very thing that helped businesses grow, which wassize and scale and economies of scale, being a multi national, Global Corporationand taking advantage of all those efficiencies, is now the very thing that isstrangling, you know, the Albatross around its name. You're listening to thecustomer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personalhuman touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales,marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customershumanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte Hey. Thanks so much for clickingplay on this episode of the Customer Experience Podcast. I am so excited tobe joined by someone who's had a significant influence on my career and the waythat I look at my work and look at the business world and life ingeneral. I'm going to do a medium size set up here, so you'regonna have to wait just a second to hear from Joseph Jaffee. See,I just spoiled it, but cluetrain manifesto flip the funnel six pixels of separation, trust, agents, content rules. These are books that had significant impactas I was trying to transition and imagining what my life would look like associal media, new media came up, and Joseph Jaffe was one of thebig voices in that for me. Long Time thought leader in new media,social media, customer experience, marketing, Innovation, currently the admiral and cofounderof the HMS Beagle, which is a strategic consultancy and, of course,a really smart nod to Charles Darwin and the survival of the fittest. Ithink survival is going to be a big being here today in the episode.I also really feel, like Joseph, that I got to know you throughyour conversations with Mitch Joel on six pixels of separation, great long running podcaston your across the pond, they said, was that what it was called.Across the sound. Close sound sound is even a better one. Andthen author of five books, including life after the thirty two spot, whichfor me I was living around the thirty two spot, working in local television, and you drew a future for me that I could identify with. Immediatelyflip the funnel, which, of course, is I hope to get into thatlater in the conversation and the brand new built to suck that long introduction, Joseph Jaffee, thank you and welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thethank you so much for having me. And of course, you know,I got this book yesterday. I laid my hands on a on my beautifulfifth baby yesterday, so it is so new and so current and there's there'san amazing I used the phrase baby, by the way, because they saythat writing a book is like birthing a child, which of course I wouldn'tknow firsthand, but I actually spoke to a female author and she said it'sactually more painful than burning a child. So that's why I think it's theright analogy. Another thing, just two other things, based on what yousaid. One is in rattling off, you know, six pixels and contentrules, I'm obviously thinking of you know, I'm thinking of people that I've thatI have the privilege of knowing working with, you know, cc Chapmanand obviously Mitch Joel and Chris Brogan. I also remember that where I waswhen I read clue trained manifesto myself. I read it quite late and alot of it was kind of it was outdated, you know, talking aboutlike, you know, lists and list serves. Sure you looked at itnot as a this is not current anymore, that's not relevant, but but froma historical standpoint, and that's always been my goal in writing books thatyou don't read something that you go this is, this is so one thousandnine hundred and ninety five, or this is so, more importantly, thisis so two thousand and eighteen or two thousand and seventeen. You want somethingthat can become a timeless classic. That's always been my goal. And thenthe final thing to tell you is, because you just said all these thingsthat made me think, we called it...

...across the sound. We called itacross the sound because Steve rebel was in Long Island and I was in Westportand we were separated by the long island sound and obviously the play on sound. Haha, audio podcasting. And it's weird because, you know, itonly lost thirteen episodes, I think, and Steve went back to micro persuasionand then if and I rebranded it as Jaffee juice. But you know,it's still in the lips and string across the sounds, I still have atremendous affection towards it. So good and so, for all the people whohave not read cluetrain manifesto and some of the other stuff we just ran through, this is just the groundwork for for web, for, you know,direct to consumer, for consumers having voices, and we'll get into all of thatand I think it's kind of the groundwork for where you are today withbill to suck. But I'm let's start where we always start here on thispodcast, with customer experience. Please give me your thoughts definition characteristics. WhenI say customer experience, what is that conjure for you? So I lovethe question and I actually think. I actually think I'd defined it in inflip the funnel and I think I called it the sum, you know,because I try to use the same syntax as as as how branding is definedand this whole I day and I think I called it, you know,this some type of the sum total, the collection of every single touch pointthat connects with that, touches that interacts with that, effects or influences thecustomer directly or indirectly, and I wanted to be quite clear about that.You know, directly or indirectly. It's also influenced by this idea. Youknow, reaches McKenna wrote a piece called marketing is everything, and I've alwaysbelieved that everything, again, that touches or affects the customer should be consideredto be marketings responsibility. But of course marketing has become almost like a youknow, a Boston step child, a laughing stock. There are so fewseats on the board at the board level, by the CMO as well, andso we've seen how marketing has lost its credibility and its influence. Butof course customer experience as almost a and it is a higher order than customerservice. Right Service fits into experience and, as I'm sure we'll talk about today, experience fits into obsession. Oh love it. That's a really nicepreview. But let's go back to to build a suck. The subtitle inevitabledemise of the corporation very provocative, as is built to suck in general provokesa lot of curiosity. Just in general. What are the primary factors at play? What do you think about when you think about the demise of thecorporation? You know, what are the main ideas under that? So thatwell, there's so much time impact from even, you know, just thatstatement. So first of all, let's start off for the fact I wasasked why not call it built to fail, and and my response it's a littlecuspos, flipp and dons noikey, but it's but I feel failures toogood for corporations because, you know, entrepreneurs get it. They understand thepower of the pivot, they understand how failure should be embraced, they understandhow done is better than perfect. And I felt that, you know,just say built to fail for corporations of like you don't even deserve to failbecause because you're worse than that. And then, you know, the otherpart of it is the inevitable demise of the corporation, dot dot dot,and how to save it with a question mark, you know. So thelook again, I'm a gee comer, you know, I love a lookat my writing as art in a sense, and you know, when apples,the whole idea of think different and you know, and and that wholeidea. So I wanted to look of course ending up with a question mark. Why? A question mark is grammatically incorrect the way I wrote it,and the whole point is I don't know that the corporation can be saved andand even if it can, corporations are their own worst enemy and ultimately willnot be able to get out of their...

...way. I use a whole bunchof analogies, but the one that strikes me is the fact that that Ihave this chart in the book. It shows it's a timeline of history ofcivilizations of a five thousand years, the rise and the fall of the Roman, the Ottoman, the Byzantine Empire. There's naughty Germany. Even at thebottom right, and it's a little controversial, is America, you know. Andevery single one of those empires and civilizations have risen and fallen. NotOne of them has been able to out maneuver outlaws, you know, thesurvive and energy, outthink, out lost, you know, out smart time.And so how arrogant old we to believe that this or Bert Empire,there's only really been around in earnest for a hundred years, give or take, will somehow be able to cheat time? And we've already seen you know.So I have about six or seven different data points I wanted to bringin this book, not only the anecdotal write the pay less has the searsas the toys r uses of the world, but the empirical and I have aton of data. I was quite clear about the fact that I didn'twant to be alarmist and I you know, a lot of people are citing informationthat is actually not correct. So we hear this one that seventy percentof fortune five hundred companies from one thousand, nine hundred and ninety are gone.Fifty percent of fortune five hundred company from two thousand are gone. That'scorrect. But gone does not mean dead right or bankrupt. It means notin the fortune five hundred anymore. And what that really means ultimately, andwhy this is so significant, is the loss of market cap. Is thefact that that, you know, even if they're not in the fortune fivehundred anymore, boy a boy, does that mean that they've lost a tremendousamount of momentum and growth and market capitalization. But there's our whole ton of them. And again, I won't going to let me of it because wecould be all day. But just the fact that the the life span ofthe corporation has dropped from seventy five to fifteen years in just fifty years.You know, and I actually went out and and and and I was likewait a second, I want I want validation for that. And I foundmultiple sources. One of the most recently is from General Standy, Stanley mccrystal'snew book called a team of teams. It's even coming up from from ageneral. So so the information that we have at our disposal says the cracksare evident and the demise is apparent. I'll give you one more and thenand then I'll hand it back to you, which is over the last three years, fifty one percent of fortune five hundred companies have had declining revenues.So the right you know, Yogi bearrow one said, if you come toa fork in the road, take it. So I say, if the writingson the wall, read it. And if you read it, it'sbasically saying kind of your on a oneway track out of town unless you embraceyour heresy, unless you adopt, and I've come up with my for growthpillar approach, and even so it's still maybe too little, too late.So that's my honest message. The point is, this isn't a fairy tale, so there isn't necessarily a happy ending. So anecdotal and and evidentiary or quantifiedelements. There and a sighting of a general by an Admiral, true, titled Admiral. I didn't think about that. Yeah, that's good.So obviously I think a lot of people are probably nodding your head, goingyeah, I can see that, oh, I get it. Oh Gosh,I didn't know that. So go one step deeper there. Why isthis the case? What are the weaknesses or even you know, to yourinevitability? There the fatal flaws of the corporation. I have a feeling thata lot of them connect specifically to customer experience, because cut customers? Ultimately, maybe not. I'm thats a leading question. I'm wondering if customers dictatethe survival or if there's something else inherently...

...wrong there. Can you just goto some of the weaknesses and fatal flaws and relationship to customers and whether ornot customers can save this? So you've done a you've done a great areally small thing by already connecting the growth color ultimately to the demise. Andthe reality is, if you kind of turn them on their head, everyone of these four pillars the kind of the reverse of them or the Ithink corollaries. Maybe the writer, the writer. The more correct way tothink about it is. You know, when you think of digital disruption,right, custom obsession, corporate citizenship and talent resurrection, it should be truethat all four of them are failing, that the corporations are failing, andall four of them right now, which is why, by figuring out howto adopt them or deliver against them, they might return to growth. Butactually, the for that I cite in the book, I call them thefor horsemen of the corporate pocalypse. And the first one, the first oneis size. Right. Why did I call the book built to suck?Because Jay Shites, many people have said it. Jashi, who I usedto work for, for for the agency that shined, founded he said,let's see how big we can get before we suck, recognizing that suckage wasinevitable. With sighs. My hypothesis in the book is that twofold one.The business model of business is broken, most notably the idea the very thingthat helped businesses grow, which was size and scale and economies of scale,being a multinational global corporation and taking advantage of all those efficiencies, is nowthe very thing that is s trangling, you know, the Albatross around itsneck. So number one is sighs. Number two is age. And youknow, I actually say in the book I'm not an Agist, except whenit comes to an animate objects like a corporation. So the fact is ahundred years companies that crow and Brag about a hundred years of history, theyshould be looking at that as a liability, not an asset, because they will, they almost surely will not be around in a hundred years time.And what I say in built to suck is that if there is a cutor for me, it's millennial companies and younger so born after one thousand ninehundred and eighty. But the key is that even those companies will suck.It is inevitable. You know, facebook already sucks. And then I havesome right at the end of the book, some thoughts from Jeff bezos about Amazonand how ultimately Amazon is. You know I mean, I'll just sayit right now. Bezos said to all his employees, you know, afterthey had announced the winners of Hqtwo. Of course, now we've since learnedthat they're pulling out of Long Island city. He said one day too, wewill suck one day to e didn't say those words. He said oneday we will fail, one day we will go bankrupt, and your jobis to delay that for as long as possible. Brilliant. My point is, if he can say that about Amazon, there isn't a single company on thisplanet that is immune. Now the third is being a public company,and I talk specifically about why Elon Musk had a basically a nervous breakdown orjust smoked weed, which we're not doing, you know, on the Joe Roganexperience, because you know, visionaries don't like to be told what todo by external shareholders. And that ready gets into the scourge of, youknow, the the what I call it a see, a CTD, acorporate transmitted disease. Right as I'm an STD, it's a CTD, youknow, the short term miters this disease of short termits of and then thefourth wine is culture and and right now, of course, that's a huge problemin these companies in terms of, you know, creating a culture thattolerates and embraces failure, that embraces the GIG economy, that knows how toattract and retain employees as well and, of course, inherent in everything yousaid, knows how to serve customers better and what customers really want in termsof value, in terms of values, right value and values, which getsinto corporate citizenship. So that's tying it all together and a big red both. So go on. Customer Obsession.

So you referred to the four pillars, digital disruption, talent resurrection, Customer Obsession and corporate citizenship, and youyou already a listed them, but then also kind of unpacked them a littlebit. Let's go, just because customers in the name of it, gointo customer recession a little bit. What, what is that one all about andwhy is it one of? You know, if there are four primarythrusts that are going to keep this corporation propped up for as long as possible, and I love that you say, Jeff Bezos, on the inevitability ofit, talk about customer recession in particular. What is that? What does thatmean? What does that look like? How does it how do you know? What are the signs of a corporation or a company, whether itbe young or one of these, you know, five thousand and sixty eightyear old companies? What is a sign that that a that a company istruly obsessed with customers. Well, you know, it's interesting because I cameup with that phrase independently and it was only off to the fact, asI was even editing the book, that I actually saw in Jeff bezos's Dayone memo which I encourage, and I do in the book everyone to read, he actually uses the phrase customer obsession and it just made me feel sogood that I've actually found several companies that have used that phrase. I didn't. I actually love that because I didn't want to be like, you know, let's coin all these new terms and hope they I love the fact thatthere is equity in that, because it is ultimately the truth, right,you want to speak the truth. You don't want to reinvent the wheel here. Sometimes you just want to be able to draw at tension and shed lighton these universal truths as well. So obsession for me is almost unhealthy.Maybe it is unhealthy because it is a fixation, it is a at allcosts, it's it's borderline being a customer stalker, you know, like withoutbreaking the law, and you know there is a passion in there, butthere's also a you know, a prime directive, to use a little bitof a Geeky Star Trek. You know, analogy as well. And and youknow when I write that chapter and I say you still don't get it, and I can prove it. You know I wrote an entire book onit called customer, called flip the funnel on customer. I called it thencustom experience, the Z and the are of zero, Zelots and and retentionwere dedicated to it. I extended the thinking in this book. I almostfelt like, you know, I can only dedicate one chapter, but Ialmost wanted to say, just go back and read these books, for God'ssake, just read them, because these books, you know, speak thetruth. I guarantee you that you will walk away from from going back andand and brushing up on your flip the funnel and zero, with actionable,practical, pragmatic, you know, and and valuable insights. But it comesdown to this truth, right, which is if ad cent of our revenuecomes from returning recurring business, our customers, our retention bucket, why are wespending twenty percent of our or less of our total marketing dollars against thatrevenue contribution? And then, of course, you take it one step further andyou say, wait a second, in BBC, and even more soin bed to be eighty percent of that revenue, that retention revenue, iscoming from twenty percent of those customers. And and you know, now wetalk about the whole ABM model, focus now on you know, somehow wewoke up and said, wait a second, we should treat our best customers better. You know revelation, you know the the tablets have been revealed.It's insane to think that only now we're kind of recognizing, you know,the fact that ultimately we have been neglecting our customers. And and of courseyou know, for me, talent resurrection is the internal customer. We havean external customer and we have an internal customer. And I'll just go backto to this whole notion, which is it's still it infuriates me. Youknow, when you see companies offering Promo Roll offs and discounts for first timebuyers, you know, as I often...

...say, your first time buyer asa stranger and your competitive conquest or switcher is a prostitute. They are apromiscuous customer, which makes you a pimp. So just own it's you know youraccording strangers and prostitutes, and is that how you want? Are Boldthe business that is built to last? Know, that's how you build abusiness that built to suck. So, you know, in this chapter Istill talk about a whole bunch of things, prices, this experiences, customer ofthe month, customer, funerals, but I also kind of talk aboutAi, and I think Ai, if you want, like the role oftwitter, should have been for customer service as opposed to, you know,our first direct to consumer. President, I still believe that that's twitter's amazingrole. Now we have to be able to say there is a you know, and there are specific roles that we need to think about in terms ofhow we engage and how we and technologies and Ai, for me, isall about surprise and delight and treating our customers better. So, as Isay, there is no a or I in customer, but perhaps there shouldbe talk a little, just another minute or two on ai, just closethat loop a little bit. For people are like Oh, AI, okay, how yeah. So, so I have a very little model or littlethree step process that I created which corresponds to Craw, walk, run,and I call it automation. Augmentation and auguration and and the you know,the whole idea of the to augurate is is that alchemy, it's to transform. It's very kind of you know, called Ron bubbling and and and mystical, because that's when you know that's in all these incredible connections. That's whenWatson starts to rear his ugly head, etc. or at least claim hereis, because he really just is a glorified weather forecast, I think.But my point is that, you know, most of what we're calling ai rightnow is just automation. Let's be clear about that. Dumb machines doingdumb people's work for the most pot replacing them because, like you know,because ultimately it costs less to do so and less mistakes are made. I'mbeing a little cynical, but I don't mean to be, because at theend of the day, you know, certainly it is wrong, and I'mnot calling someone who wants operated a toll booth dumb, but I'm saying thesewere menial, mechanical tasks and certainly in some cases automation has been great,especially in industries where you know their fatalities and there's, you know, heavyindustrial machinery, but that's all we're doing. We're calling at AI, but we'rejust looking really to fire people and save on overhead and save US money. You know, augmentation, on the other hand, is when computers,when machines and humans work side by side, and that's where I think custom experiencecan really in custom obsession can flourish. You know, these are a simpleexample sometimes of you know, as I say in zero, don't payfor attention, pay attention. You know, I recently was at a Forca sasons. I checked into a four seasons and I was with my daughter andwere looking at colleges and when I called to make the reservation, they saidas they any special occasion, and I said, yes, I happened tobe visiting college close to where you're located, and they and and they took afew day. You know, they asked me a few questions. WhenI arrived, they look to me and they said this must be your daughter. You must be so excited to be visiting colleges. Now I've had otherexperiences with the four seasons where I ended up in my room with a bigfruit boss and there was a handwritten note that said, you know, thisis your ten time at this four seasons. We wanted to I wanted a personallythank you. It wasn't a printed handwritten note, right, wasn't theDakode of Fond it was handwritten. So that's what happens when humans and machineswork together as willing bedfellows. And I'm...

...still not even quite sure that that'sai in a sense. But there are certainly this this belief and I thinkrecognition that in a world of big data, you know, as I wrote inzero, big data, big dummy. Right, big data has forced tohas made us dumb and not smarter. But when we can actually figure outhow to create connections and make connections and create these calls or relationships andinferences, that's when magic happens. And ultimately, if you go back tomarketing one hundred and one, you know, we're in the business of surprising anddelighting, right, we're in the business of under promising and over delivering, and that's where I think a I can play this incredible role. Thatwas awesome that, you know, you just really went deep into one ofmy personal primary motivations for going this direction with with the the customer experience podcastin general, which is, you know, personalized is not personal, that there'sa difference between those two. And what you just did there is youlet the machine personalize and you let the human. or You walked out anexample where the human makes it truly person or someone looks you and looks yourdaughter and the eye greets you warmly and sincerely, human to human, eyeto eye, facetoface and creates a truly personal moment. In so and Ijust want to and I just want to add, like another thing that Isaid, which is, you know, let's put the custom in customer.You know, one of the big case studies in that chapter is Netflix.You know, there is a great quote from one of the NETFLIX executives whichsays we have thirty three million versions of Netflix, and Amazon has done similarwith their personalization of their home page. So that's where technology can help,which is, you know, I totally agree with what you said and Ijust you know, those two buzz was right, personalization and customization, orthrown around, but do we really understand what they mean and all we reallydelivering against them, and not in the way those two companies you mentioned are. Hey, we've already driven by a little bit flip the funnel, which, again for me at that point in my career, I read it maybetwo or three years after it was published and it's coming up on its tenbirthday. By the way. I don't finger to throw a party for itbecause it to me it's foundational pisn what's it I should yeah, totally forwill you come to it? Yeah, I will absolutely try. If yougive me an invitation, I will show up at a flip the funnel birthdayparty. Retention is acquisition, customer service as a company's real deferret differentiator forthe future. And really this kind of the rise of influencers, but notin the way we talked about it now, which gets a little bit back intothe prostitute and pimp metaphor you're talking about, but real influencers, trueadvocates, and now social media gives them a voice. These are just someof the key themes and it was very inford looking. Yeah, and,and I actually coined this term, which I don't even think of ro it'sfunny, the marketing bow tie, which has become so you know, reallyI've it's blown me away in terms of how it's been received and adopted byfortune five hundred companies. I just threw then right at the end, andand was actually Jeremiah Oh young who looked at it like this is really good, Joe, and I was like, Oh, you should I put itany like because I'm it was. It was day before I had to handthe manuscript in. So thanks, Jeremiah. And and I really developed that wholethinking in zero. So a lot of the thinking kind of continued into, you know, and and through zero. But one of them also has thisidea of the super consumer. Right, who is the super consumer? Thesuper I mean, I'm telling you, if companies just do this, they'regoing to win bride, which is when you look at the people thatbuy you a lot and those who talk about you a lot to a lotof people, when you combine influence with actual business right, with with actualpatronage, that is the most forget about loyalty. That is the most influentialand credible customer referral. So, like you know, this is the thingthat we still missed even with with my second book. Join the conversation.With whom? Who? Do we want...

...to just have these conversations with?With our customers, with our loyalists, with our zealots, with our advocates, and so the super consumer is the influential customer, because all you gotto do, they've got the megaphone, just get out the way and lethim talk and let him celebrate. And and that's also another thing that Ibrought into into built to suck this idea of priceless experiences, you know,the ability to give our customers things that money can't buy. That's why it'spriceless. So I have a little photo in my book exploiting my child,my son, you know, ended up walking onto the field with a NewYork City football club game at an NYCFC game. Those things you can't payfor them. There's no price tag to buy to be a mascot. Youget it through loyalty and through loyalty points, and so, you know, that'sthat's what happens when you connect all the dots and you're giving people thesethings that are just wow. They will never forget those as moments as longas they live, but they might forgive you for, you know, youmessed up the product was. You know, I spoke a lot about recently aboutwhat happened with Zion when he's Nikeshoe broke, you know, playing forDuke and a college basketball game. You know, Nike Might Get away withit once, but, excuse the PUN, if they slip up again, they'redead. So the thing is, we will forgive, you know,just like our spouse, just like our our you know, our clients orthe relationship wherever, then we will. If we've earned that credibility, ifwe've earned that integrity, if we've earned that trust, will always have asecond chance, but we may not always have a third chance, and Ithink that kind of brings it together as well, which is which is thesuper consumer. We need to foster those and find those people and when youplug them into the actual R and D engine and create that Voice of thecustomer innovation loop. I'm telling you, you know, it's like it's weirdthat it sounds weird, but but like anybody just listening to this interview,like a corporate executive, I'm telling you, just listen to this podcast and doeverything we're talking about, and I promise you you will be successful.You will return to growth. The stuff is not necessarily rocket science. It'skind of common sense. And now it's the time to act because, youknow, as I said, these large corporations that house you, you andgive you this full sense of security. They are failing and they're going tofail increasingly. So enforced rent of great I want to you know before wekind of button this up a little bit and it's been amazing and, aswe talked before we hit recorded, I'm sure we could go a lot longer. Why? I know we could, because you're you already spoke to thecontinuity, like your body of work over the past fifteen years or so.It is all one continuous, evolved story. I'm just going to tie back tothe beginning, tie back two built to suck. The inevitability of itis that there's some life cycle that, just like a human being in ahuman body, if you treat your body poorly and you execute poorly, youdon't exercise, you eat like garbage, you're going to pass sooner than someonewho takes care. So you can, you can extend, but there's aninevitability and we all are day always arrives to die, and so it's interestingwith, you know, with the HMS Begal, the Darwin Reference, whichis a biological reference. It's a survival of the fittest. There's kind ofbiological undertone to this conversation, do you think? And in the same thingwith civilizations, right, so civilizations are human constructed in a way, butthey also are organic and to have a little bit of a life of theirown. Have you thought on that theme, like this theme that ties the humanlifespan with a civilization lifespan, with a corporate life's and what is thebiological underpinning here? Have you do every thoughts on that? Yeah, Imean totally, you're you're totally on the...

...mark. I'm bobb leardies, who'sthe CEO of the Association of national advertisers. They are the body that you knowkind of you know, houses all of these senior marketers at these corporations. So I'm just reading his endorsement. He said. I'll just you knowhe said. This time he's brilliantly demonstrated how companies, ages are just likepeople. Corporations must stay young, certain agile or face the outcome of anearly death. So he's even taking this idea of premature death right. Thisis, you know, this is clogged arteries and and incredibly high levels ofcholesterol and so on and so forth. Dolwin said it is not the strongestof species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one that isthe most adaptable to change. So part of this anecdote is is change,you know, and this and part of it is transformation and reinvention. Likeyou know, I a little bit of fun in the book, which isat the time apple and both Amazon had become the first trillion dollar market capcompany. So I said, well, we need a term, right,we call billet billionaire, you know, billion dollar market CAP companies UNICORNS.So I think I came up with Phoenix, and the other one I was thinkingof was Hydra, which is more to just colored death to everybody elsebut the Phoenix. The interesting thing about the Phoenix is, and I dida little bit of research, is there's really only one at any given time, and it's funny because apples dropped off since. But I think, yes, I mean absolutely so, you know, with age and with sighs, what'sreally happening from a cultural standpoint is legacy and incumbency and resistance to changeand bad habits and silos. In fact, that was that, that was thethe premise. The premise was that large companies today have become, youknow, too big to political, too dysfunctional, to Silod you know,to risk averse. They're slowing down when the world is speeding up, andthat's the essence, right. They are moving in a different direction to momentum, to change, and that's why, I mean, it's a very simpleway of just saying like, ultimately, this is the road to the futureand they're on the road out of town in the exact opposite direction. AllRight, quick personal opinion here for you, because this also is a biological themethat I swear is not more than two steps away from where we,where we are right now. biohacking in Silicon Valley, blood transfusions with youngpeople's blood, you know, the types of things that folks are doing totry to extend human life. I think, I believe, there's a gentleman who'sOs announced formally that he's on a quest to live the two hundred orsomething. Any personal thoughts, are opinions on these, some of these whatseem like over the type efforts to extend human life? Oh my God,that is and and and I use that phrase God. You know, humansplaying God. That is not a question that that I expected to be us. I mean, listen, there are two ways to look at it,and I think it is kind of you either take a religious or an orcomplete agnostic or even an atheist point of view. Right. One is is, look how great we are and look look at all the tools that wehave and by Golly, we're going to use them all to to, youknow, just continue to soar close and closer to the sun, right,like chorus. which leads to the second part, which is at what pointare we in fact playing God and and crossing the line? Mean my pointof view, and you know I mean look at what happened with there andUS, and there's been so much there's been so much stuff in the space. I think the inevitability in the reality, you know, bringing it back asobjectively as possible, is it cannot be a bad thing that in maybenot in our lifetimes, but our children's, that there will be a cure forcancer. Right. We've seen it with HIV. So the ability forus to cure disease is fantastic and we should do more of that. Theability to live to two hundred, that's...

...going to come at a price andit just has to. When you look at population and overpopulation. Going backto corporate citizenship. I actually talked about in the book. How you know, I encounter them. I'm very familiar with an organization that called called GlobalCitizen and they put on this big concert and and Hugh who stoughted it.His whole mission is to make poverty history by two thousand and thirty. Well, what's going to happen if we're living to to? I mean it's justit's going to be insane. Right, all these mad, megalomaniacal, youknow, over population. Remember the movie the Kingsman, and all these maniacal, you know, kind of villains trying to cure it. Just it takesus down down a part that we may not get, you know, getback from. Thank you so much for that diversion. I appreciate I'm gladI could surprise you. I think so you. I'm excited to hear youranswers to couple standard closes that we do here, because we're all about relationships. You were so quick and so kind to respond to my inquiry. Isaw that that built to suck had been released. I saw your facebook post. Reached out and we did not set this up any more than say,sixteen hours ago. So again, we're all about relationships. I like toend these these conversations with your opportunity to thank or mention a person who's hada positive impact on your life or on your career, as well as acompany that you feel is doing and you've already named several, so think ofmaybe one more who's doing customer experience the right way, who's really delivering foryou. Well, I you know, it's funny. I mean I thinkI'm just going to point to people that are actually on the back of mybook. Philip Cler, professor, Philip Cotler, who, you know,I learned marketing and I was in spite. I didn't even know that I wasgoing to specialize, but when I read his book when I was atCollege, I was like this is who I am, this is who Iwant to be. Richard TOBACCAWALAH's always been like a role model on a mentalone of the smartest guys I know. You know, just just incredibly succinctand cynical, but in a beautiful way, and super, superintelligent. You know, those are two people that are even on the back of my book. And then you've got, you know, other people like Chris Burgrave, whoused to be the the CMO OF A B in Bev run, Budweiser, or they're super bodvertising. Before that he was a coke. I thinkthe privilege of becoming really good friends with my ex clients who are now,you know, consultants or whatever, and building relationships with marketers. And itwas funny because at the back his endorsement he he said, Jeffy may appearto be the highest sparrow of Paranoia, which you know, if you ifyou watch game of thrones, you know who the highest sparrow was and thereference. And then I said to him wait, Chris, hold on asecond. You know that the highest sparrow basically got nuked by the wildfire,you know, and him and all these disciples got kind of bond and hesaid, well, that's the price of being a heretic and that's what youare. But then he does come back and calls me Andy Grove to point, which is a much bigger compliment. So I think, you know,the ability to cultivate these relationships within the market, in community with thought leaders, with executives, and move together to move the industry forward. It's acollective body of people and conversations that have made their mark on me. Awesomeis in is there another company that that you feel like? You know?You say, did the football club there in New York? I forget thethe hotel. Is that a Ritz Carlton? It was a well, Ritz Carlton'sgreat too, but like the four seasons, yeah, I mean they'remany, there are many examples. But you know what I almost you know, one thing I said was I'm going to give you a lot of this, the expected companies, right, the Nikes, the apples, the Netflix, the Amazons, but I want to explain to you why we cite themall and the reasons why they've they've done so well. The other one isstarbucks. I'm just really, really it's not just a great brand, buteverything from going back to the talent pod right parttime barristers, giving them fullhealthcare and and stock options and benefits and...

...fraternity and maternity. This is theway to think about running and building a business. The starbucks experience and andit is the one company that I actually write at the end of the bookI go through the four pillars and I show how they're delivering against each one. So you know I'm paying homage to the companies that we admire, butI'm explaining to why we admire them and what they're doing right and what they'redoing really, really well and, of course, at the same time callingout some of the companies that want Joseph Jfe. This has been awesome.I sincerely appreciate your time. I value your insides. I love what you'vecontributed to just called the conversation at large in the way that you continue it. Congratulations on your fifth book. If someone wants to connect with you onlineor wants to check out built to suck, what are some ways that people shouldconnect with you? Thank you for asking. The books website is builtto Suckcom. That's when I knew it had to be called that, becausethat I couldn't believe it was even available. So built to suck will actually giveyou a lot of stuff. Besides obviously please pre order the book fromAmazon, do it early and often, and you can link to to thatfrom the site. But there's a lot of good stuff on that that website. There's the ability to download piece of Ip that I created called the survivalplanning canvas and the startup survival planning canvas. It's free. I didn't want tolike, you know, have people register. I want people to livethis and and build their survival plants. There's a lot of bonus content thereand I'm starting a little blog as well where I'll talk about companies that suckand companies that I'm placing on what I called Death Watch as well. Sobuilt to suck is one place, and obvious place. The HMS Bigal likealluding to Dolwan. We help our clients navigate the journey to survival because webelieve everyone is in the survival business nowadays, and that RL is the HMS Bgoldcom. And then, of course, you know I'm pretty much Jeffy douson every social media platform. I have to admit I'm the most actof these days on instagram. I just happened to kind of live this moreof visual world. I'm probably the least act of on twitter and and andfacebook. They just have really lost their shine as far as I'm concerned.But you know, when somebody calls me out good old bed I typically knowabout it and I will respond to you. Excellent. I wouldn't expect anything differentfrom you. I so appreciate your time. Thanks for going long onthis episode. I hope everyone enjoyed it and I bid you a great restof your day and a wonderful weekend ahead. Thank you, and it was absolutelymy pleasure. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter yourrole in delivering value and serving customers, you're in trusting some of your mostimportant and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. Rehumanize theexperience by getting facetoface through simple, personal videos. Learn more and getstarted free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast.To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favoritepodcast player or visit bomb bombcom. Thank you so much for listening.Until next time.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (181)