The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

4. Will You Still Be in Business in 5, 10, 25 Years? w/ Joseph Jaffe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Businesses are just like people. They must stay healthy and agile, or watch their enterprise arteries harden through apathy and face an early death.

Charles Darwin said, “It is not the strongest of species that survives nor the most intelligent, but the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

The key to survival is transformation and reinvention.

Thus says Joseph Jaffe, the “admiral and co-founder” of The HMS Beagle, which is a strategic consultancy whose name is a nod to the exploratory ship Charles Darwin was on when he developed the theory of evolution. The HMS Beagle helps clients navigate the journey to survival because everyone is in the survival business nowadays.

The business model of business is broken, most notably the idea the very thing that helped businesses grow, which was size and scale and economies of scale, being a multi national, Global Corporation and taking advantage of all those efficiencies, is now the very thing that is strangling, you know, the Albatross around its name. You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customer success experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte Hey. Thanks so much for clicking play on this episode of the Customer Experience Podcast. I am so excited to be joined by someone who's had a significant influence on my career and the way that I look at my work and look at the business world and life in general. I'm going to do a medium size set up here, so you're gonna have to wait just a second to hear from Joseph Jaffee. See, I just spoiled it, but cluetrain manifesto flip the funnel six pixels of separation, trust, agents, content rules. These are books that had significant impact as I was trying to transition and imagining what my life would look like as social media, new media came up, and Joseph Jaffe was one of the big voices in that for me. Long Time thought leader in new media, social media, customer experience, marketing, Innovation, currently the admiral and cofounder of the HMS Beagle, which is a strategic consultancy and, of course, a really smart nod to Charles Darwin and the survival of the fittest. I think survival is going to be a big being here today in the episode. I also really feel, like Joseph, that I got to know you through your conversations with Mitch Joel on six pixels of separation, great long running podcast on your across the pond, they said, was that what it was called. Across the sound. Close sound sound is even a better one. And then author of five books, including life after the thirty two spot, which for me I was living around the thirty two spot, working in local television, and you drew a future for me that I could identify with. Immediately flip the funnel, which, of course, is I hope to get into that later in the conversation and the brand new built to suck that long introduction, Joseph Jaffee, thank you and welcome to the customer experience podcast. The thank you so much for having me. And of course, you know, I got this book yesterday. I laid my hands on a on my beautiful fifth baby yesterday, so it is so new and so current and there's there's an amazing I used the phrase baby, by the way, because they say that writing a book is like birthing a child, which of course I wouldn't know firsthand, but I actually spoke to a female author and she said it's actually more painful than burning a child. So that's why I think it's the right analogy. Another thing, just two other things, based on what you said. One is in rattling off, you know, six pixels and content rules, I'm obviously thinking of you know, I'm thinking of people that I've that I have the privilege of knowing working with, you know, cc Chapman and obviously Mitch Joel and Chris Brogan. I also remember that where I was when I read clue trained manifesto myself. I read it quite late and a lot of it was kind of it was outdated, you know, talking about like, you know, lists and list serves. Sure you looked at it not as a this is not current anymore, that's not relevant, but but from a historical standpoint, and that's always been my goal in writing books that you don't read something that you go this is, this is so one thousand nine hundred and ninety five, or this is so, more importantly, this is so two thousand and eighteen or two thousand and seventeen. You want something that can become a timeless classic. That's always been my goal. And then the final thing to tell you is, because you just said all these things that made me think, we called it...

...across the sound. We called it across the sound because Steve rebel was in Long Island and I was in Westport and we were separated by the long island sound and obviously the play on sound. Haha, audio podcasting. And it's weird because, you know, it only lost thirteen episodes, I think, and Steve went back to micro persuasion and then if and I rebranded it as Jaffee juice. But you know, it's still in the lips and string across the sounds, I still have a tremendous affection towards it. So good and so, for all the people who have not read cluetrain manifesto and some of the other stuff we just ran through, this is just the groundwork for for web, for, you know, direct to consumer, for consumers having voices, and we'll get into all of that and I think it's kind of the groundwork for where you are today with bill to suck. But I'm let's start where we always start here on this podcast, with customer experience. Please give me your thoughts definition characteristics. When I say customer experience, what is that conjure for you? So I love the question and I actually think. I actually think I'd defined it in in flip the funnel and I think I called it the sum, you know, because I try to use the same syntax as as as how branding is defined and this whole I day and I think I called it, you know, this some type of the sum total, the collection of every single touch point that connects with that, touches that interacts with that, effects or influences the customer directly or indirectly, and I wanted to be quite clear about that. You know, directly or indirectly. It's also influenced by this idea. You know, reaches McKenna wrote a piece called marketing is everything, and I've always believed that everything, again, that touches or affects the customer should be considered to be marketings responsibility. But of course marketing has become almost like a you know, a Boston step child, a laughing stock. There are so few seats on the board at the board level, by the CMO as well, and so we've seen how marketing has lost its credibility and its influence. But of course customer experience as almost a and it is a higher order than customer service. Right Service fits into experience and, as I'm sure we'll talk about today, experience fits into obsession. Oh love it. That's a really nice preview. But let's go back to to build a suck. The subtitle inevitable demise of the corporation very provocative, as is built to suck in general provokes a lot of curiosity. Just in general. What are the primary factors at play? What do you think about when you think about the demise of the corporation? You know, what are the main ideas under that? So that well, there's so much time impact from even, you know, just that statement. So first of all, let's start off for the fact I was asked why not call it built to fail, and and my response it's a little cuspos, flipp and dons noikey, but it's but I feel failures too good for corporations because, you know, entrepreneurs get it. They understand the power of the pivot, they understand how failure should be embraced, they understand how done is better than perfect. And I felt that, you know, just say built to fail for corporations of like you don't even deserve to fail because because you're worse than that. And then, you know, the other part of it is the inevitable demise of the corporation, dot dot dot, and how to save it with a question mark, you know. So the look again, I'm a gee comer, you know, I love a look at my writing as art in a sense, and you know, when apples, the whole idea of think different and you know, and and that whole idea. So I wanted to look of course ending up with a question mark. Why? A question mark is grammatically incorrect the way I wrote it, and the whole point is I don't know that the corporation can be saved and and even if it can, corporations are their own worst enemy and ultimately will not be able to get out of their...

...way. I use a whole bunch of analogies, but the one that strikes me is the fact that that I have this chart in the book. It shows it's a timeline of history of civilizations of a five thousand years, the rise and the fall of the Roman, the Ottoman, the Byzantine Empire. There's naughty Germany. Even at the bottom right, and it's a little controversial, is America, you know. And every single one of those empires and civilizations have risen and fallen. Not One of them has been able to out maneuver outlaws, you know, the survive and energy, outthink, out lost, you know, out smart time. And so how arrogant old we to believe that this or Bert Empire, there's only really been around in earnest for a hundred years, give or take, will somehow be able to cheat time? And we've already seen you know. So I have about six or seven different data points I wanted to bring in this book, not only the anecdotal write the pay less has the sears as the toys r uses of the world, but the empirical and I have a ton of data. I was quite clear about the fact that I didn't want to be alarmist and I you know, a lot of people are citing information that is actually not correct. So we hear this one that seventy percent of fortune five hundred companies from one thousand, nine hundred and ninety are gone. Fifty percent of fortune five hundred company from two thousand are gone. That's correct. But gone does not mean dead right or bankrupt. It means not in the fortune five hundred anymore. And what that really means ultimately, and why this is so significant, is the loss of market cap. Is the fact that that, you know, even if they're not in the fortune five hundred anymore, boy a boy, does that mean that they've lost a tremendous amount of momentum and growth and market capitalization. But there's our whole ton of them. And again, I won't going to let me of it because we could be all day. But just the fact that the the life span of the corporation has dropped from seventy five to fifteen years in just fifty years. You know, and I actually went out and and and and I was like wait a second, I want I want validation for that. And I found multiple sources. One of the most recently is from General Standy, Stanley mccrystal's new book called a team of teams. It's even coming up from from a general. So so the information that we have at our disposal says the cracks are evident and the demise is apparent. I'll give you one more and then and then I'll hand it back to you, which is over the last three years, fifty one percent of fortune five hundred companies have had declining revenues. So the right you know, Yogi bearrow one said, if you come to a fork in the road, take it. So I say, if the writings on the wall, read it. And if you read it, it's basically saying kind of your on a oneway track out of town unless you embrace your heresy, unless you adopt, and I've come up with my for growth pillar approach, and even so it's still maybe too little, too late. So that's my honest message. The point is, this isn't a fairy tale, so there isn't necessarily a happy ending. So anecdotal and and evidentiary or quantified elements. There and a sighting of a general by an Admiral, true, titled Admiral. I didn't think about that. Yeah, that's good. So obviously I think a lot of people are probably nodding your head, going yeah, I can see that, oh, I get it. Oh Gosh, I didn't know that. So go one step deeper there. Why is this the case? What are the weaknesses or even you know, to your inevitability? There the fatal flaws of the corporation. I have a feeling that a lot of them connect specifically to customer experience, because cut customers? Ultimately, maybe not. I'm thats a leading question. I'm wondering if customers dictate the survival or if there's something else inherently...

...wrong there. Can you just go to some of the weaknesses and fatal flaws and relationship to customers and whether or not customers can save this? So you've done a you've done a great a really small thing by already connecting the growth color ultimately to the demise. And the reality is, if you kind of turn them on their head, every one of these four pillars the kind of the reverse of them or the I think corollaries. Maybe the writer, the writer. The more correct way to think about it is. You know, when you think of digital disruption, right, custom obsession, corporate citizenship and talent resurrection, it should be true that all four of them are failing, that the corporations are failing, and all four of them right now, which is why, by figuring out how to adopt them or deliver against them, they might return to growth. But actually, the for that I cite in the book, I call them the for horsemen of the corporate pocalypse. And the first one, the first one is size. Right. Why did I call the book built to suck? Because Jay Shites, many people have said it. Jashi, who I used to work for, for for the agency that shined, founded he said, let's see how big we can get before we suck, recognizing that suckage was inevitable. With sighs. My hypothesis in the book is that twofold one. The business model of business is broken, most notably the idea the very thing that helped businesses grow, which was size and scale and economies of scale, being a multinational global corporation and taking advantage of all those efficiencies, is now the very thing that is s trangling, you know, the Albatross around its neck. So number one is sighs. Number two is age. And you know, I actually say in the book I'm not an Agist, except when it comes to an animate objects like a corporation. So the fact is a hundred years companies that crow and Brag about a hundred years of history, they should be looking at that as a liability, not an asset, because they will, they almost surely will not be around in a hundred years time. And what I say in built to suck is that if there is a cut or for me, it's millennial companies and younger so born after one thousand nine hundred and eighty. But the key is that even those companies will suck. It is inevitable. You know, facebook already sucks. And then I have some right at the end of the book, some thoughts from Jeff bezos about Amazon and how ultimately Amazon is. You know I mean, I'll just say it right now. Bezos said to all his employees, you know, after they had announced the winners of Hqtwo. Of course, now we've since learned that they're pulling out of Long Island city. He said one day too, we will suck one day to e didn't say those words. He said one day we will fail, one day we will go bankrupt, and your job is to delay that for as long as possible. Brilliant. My point is, if he can say that about Amazon, there isn't a single company on this planet that is immune. Now the third is being a public company, and I talk specifically about why Elon Musk had a basically a nervous breakdown or just smoked weed, which we're not doing, you know, on the Joe Rogan experience, because you know, visionaries don't like to be told what to do by external shareholders. And that ready gets into the scourge of, you know, the the what I call it a see, a CTD, a corporate transmitted disease. Right as I'm an STD, it's a CTD, you know, the short term miters this disease of short termits of and then the fourth wine is culture and and right now, of course, that's a huge problem in these companies in terms of, you know, creating a culture that tolerates and embraces failure, that embraces the GIG economy, that knows how to attract and retain employees as well and, of course, inherent in everything you said, knows how to serve customers better and what customers really want in terms of value, in terms of values, right value and values, which gets into corporate citizenship. So that's tying it all together and a big red both. So go on. Customer Obsession.

So you referred to the four pillars, digital disruption, talent resurrection, Customer Obsession and corporate citizenship, and you you already a listed them, but then also kind of unpacked them a little bit. Let's go, just because customers in the name of it, go into customer recession a little bit. What, what is that one all about and why is it one of? You know, if there are four primary thrusts that are going to keep this corporation propped up for as long as possible, and I love that you say, Jeff Bezos, on the inevitability of it, talk about customer recession in particular. What is that? What does that mean? What does that look like? How does it how do you know? What are the signs of a corporation or a company, whether it be young or one of these, you know, five thousand and sixty eight year old companies? What is a sign that that a that a company is truly obsessed with customers. Well, you know, it's interesting because I came up with that phrase independently and it was only off to the fact, as I was even editing the book, that I actually saw in Jeff bezos's Day one memo which I encourage, and I do in the book everyone to read, he actually uses the phrase customer obsession and it just made me feel so good that I've actually found several companies that have used that phrase. I didn't. I actually love that because I didn't want to be like, you know, let's coin all these new terms and hope they I love the fact that there is equity in that, because it is ultimately the truth, right, you want to speak the truth. You don't want to reinvent the wheel here. Sometimes you just want to be able to draw at tension and shed light on these universal truths as well. So obsession for me is almost unhealthy. Maybe it is unhealthy because it is a fixation, it is a at all costs, it's it's borderline being a customer stalker, you know, like without breaking the law, and you know there is a passion in there, but there's also a you know, a prime directive, to use a little bit of a Geeky Star Trek. You know, analogy as well. And and you know when I write that chapter and I say you still don't get it, and I can prove it. You know I wrote an entire book on it called customer, called flip the funnel on customer. I called it then custom experience, the Z and the are of zero, Zelots and and retention were dedicated to it. I extended the thinking in this book. I almost felt like, you know, I can only dedicate one chapter, but I almost wanted to say, just go back and read these books, for God's sake, just read them, because these books, you know, speak the truth. I guarantee you that you will walk away from from going back and and and brushing up on your flip the funnel and zero, with actionable, practical, pragmatic, you know, and and valuable insights. But it comes down to this truth, right, which is if ad cent of our revenue comes from returning recurring business, our customers, our retention bucket, why are we spending twenty percent of our or less of our total marketing dollars against that revenue contribution? And then, of course, you take it one step further and you say, wait a second, in BBC, and even more so in bed to be eighty percent of that revenue, that retention revenue, is coming from twenty percent of those customers. And and you know, now we talk about the whole ABM model, focus now on you know, somehow we woke up and said, wait a second, we should treat our best customers better. You know revelation, you know the the tablets have been revealed. It's insane to think that only now we're kind of recognizing, you know, the fact that ultimately we have been neglecting our customers. And and of course you know, for me, talent resurrection is the internal customer. We have an external customer and we have an internal customer. And I'll just go back to to this whole notion, which is it's still it infuriates me. You know, when you see companies offering Promo Roll offs and discounts for first time buyers, you know, as I often...

...say, your first time buyer as a stranger and your competitive conquest or switcher is a prostitute. They are a promiscuous customer, which makes you a pimp. So just own it's you know your according strangers and prostitutes, and is that how you want? Are Bold the business that is built to last? Know, that's how you build a business that built to suck. So, you know, in this chapter I still talk about a whole bunch of things, prices, this experiences, customer of the month, customer, funerals, but I also kind of talk about Ai, and I think Ai, if you want, like the role of twitter, should have been for customer service as opposed to, you know, our first direct to consumer. President, I still believe that that's twitter's amazing role. Now we have to be able to say there is a you know, and there are specific roles that we need to think about in terms of how we engage and how we and technologies and Ai, for me, is all about surprise and delight and treating our customers better. So, as I say, there is no a or I in customer, but perhaps there should be talk a little, just another minute or two on ai, just close that loop a little bit. For people are like Oh, AI, okay, how yeah. So, so I have a very little model or little three step process that I created which corresponds to Craw, walk, run, and I call it automation. Augmentation and auguration and and the you know, the whole idea of the to augurate is is that alchemy, it's to transform. It's very kind of you know, called Ron bubbling and and and mystical, because that's when you know that's in all these incredible connections. That's when Watson starts to rear his ugly head, etc. or at least claim here is, because he really just is a glorified weather forecast, I think. But my point is that, you know, most of what we're calling ai right now is just automation. Let's be clear about that. Dumb machines doing dumb people's work for the most pot replacing them because, like you know, because ultimately it costs less to do so and less mistakes are made. I'm being a little cynical, but I don't mean to be, because at the end of the day, you know, certainly it is wrong, and I'm not calling someone who wants operated a toll booth dumb, but I'm saying these were menial, mechanical tasks and certainly in some cases automation has been great, especially in industries where you know their fatalities and there's, you know, heavy industrial machinery, but that's all we're doing. We're calling at AI, but we're just looking really to fire people and save on overhead and save US money. You know, augmentation, on the other hand, is when computers, when machines and humans work side by side, and that's where I think custom experience can really in custom obsession can flourish. You know, these are a simple example sometimes of you know, as I say in zero, don't pay for attention, pay attention. You know, I recently was at a Forca sasons. I checked into a four seasons and I was with my daughter and were looking at colleges and when I called to make the reservation, they said as they any special occasion, and I said, yes, I happened to be visiting college close to where you're located, and they and and they took a few day. You know, they asked me a few questions. When I arrived, they look to me and they said this must be your daughter. You must be so excited to be visiting colleges. Now I've had other experiences with the four seasons where I ended up in my room with a big fruit boss and there was a handwritten note that said, you know, this is your ten time at this four seasons. We wanted to I wanted a personally thank you. It wasn't a printed handwritten note, right, wasn't the Dakode of Fond it was handwritten. So that's what happens when humans and machines work together as willing bedfellows. And I'm...

...still not even quite sure that that's ai in a sense. But there are certainly this this belief and I think recognition that in a world of big data, you know, as I wrote in zero, big data, big dummy. Right, big data has forced to has made us dumb and not smarter. But when we can actually figure out how to create connections and make connections and create these calls or relationships and inferences, that's when magic happens. And ultimately, if you go back to marketing one hundred and one, you know, we're in the business of surprising and delighting, right, we're in the business of under promising and over delivering, and that's where I think a I can play this incredible role. That was awesome that, you know, you just really went deep into one of my personal primary motivations for going this direction with with the the customer experience podcast in general, which is, you know, personalized is not personal, that there's a difference between those two. And what you just did there is you let the machine personalize and you let the human. or You walked out an example where the human makes it truly person or someone looks you and looks your daughter and the eye greets you warmly and sincerely, human to human, eye to eye, facetoface and creates a truly personal moment. In so and I just want to and I just want to add, like another thing that I said, which is, you know, let's put the custom in customer. You know, one of the big case studies in that chapter is Netflix. You know, there is a great quote from one of the NETFLIX executives which says we have thirty three million versions of Netflix, and Amazon has done similar with their personalization of their home page. So that's where technology can help, which is, you know, I totally agree with what you said and I just you know, those two buzz was right, personalization and customization, or thrown around, but do we really understand what they mean and all we really delivering against them, and not in the way those two companies you mentioned are. Hey, we've already driven by a little bit flip the funnel, which, again for me at that point in my career, I read it maybe two or three years after it was published and it's coming up on its ten birthday. By the way. I don't finger to throw a party for it because it to me it's foundational pisn what's it I should yeah, totally for will you come to it? Yeah, I will absolutely try. If you give me an invitation, I will show up at a flip the funnel birthday party. Retention is acquisition, customer service as a company's real deferret differentiator for the future. And really this kind of the rise of influencers, but not in the way we talked about it now, which gets a little bit back into the prostitute and pimp metaphor you're talking about, but real influencers, true advocates, and now social media gives them a voice. These are just some of the key themes and it was very inford looking. Yeah, and, and I actually coined this term, which I don't even think of ro it's funny, the marketing bow tie, which has become so you know, really I've it's blown me away in terms of how it's been received and adopted by fortune five hundred companies. I just threw then right at the end, and and was actually Jeremiah Oh young who looked at it like this is really good, Joe, and I was like, Oh, you should I put it any like because I'm it was. It was day before I had to hand the manuscript in. So thanks, Jeremiah. And and I really developed that whole thinking in zero. So a lot of the thinking kind of continued into, you know, and and through zero. But one of them also has this idea of the super consumer. Right, who is the super consumer? The super I mean, I'm telling you, if companies just do this, they're going to win bride, which is when you look at the people that buy you a lot and those who talk about you a lot to a lot of people, when you combine influence with actual business right, with with actual patronage, that is the most forget about loyalty. That is the most influential and credible customer referral. So, like you know, this is the thing that we still missed even with with my second book. Join the conversation. With whom? Who? Do we want...

...to just have these conversations with? With our customers, with our loyalists, with our zealots, with our advocates, and so the super consumer is the influential customer, because all you got to do, they've got the megaphone, just get out the way and let him talk and let him celebrate. And and that's also another thing that I brought into into built to suck this idea of priceless experiences, you know, the ability to give our customers things that money can't buy. That's why it's priceless. So I have a little photo in my book exploiting my child, my son, you know, ended up walking onto the field with a New York City football club game at an NYCFC game. Those things you can't pay for them. There's no price tag to buy to be a mascot. You get it through loyalty and through loyalty points, and so, you know, that's that's what happens when you connect all the dots and you're giving people these things that are just wow. They will never forget those as moments as long as they live, but they might forgive you for, you know, you messed up the product was. You know, I spoke a lot about recently about what happened with Zion when he's Nikeshoe broke, you know, playing for Duke and a college basketball game. You know, Nike Might Get away with it once, but, excuse the PUN, if they slip up again, they're dead. So the thing is, we will forgive, you know, just like our spouse, just like our our you know, our clients or the relationship wherever, then we will. If we've earned that credibility, if we've earned that integrity, if we've earned that trust, will always have a second chance, but we may not always have a third chance, and I think that kind of brings it together as well, which is which is the super consumer. We need to foster those and find those people and when you plug them into the actual R and D engine and create that Voice of the customer innovation loop. I'm telling you, you know, it's like it's weird that it sounds weird, but but like anybody just listening to this interview, like a corporate executive, I'm telling you, just listen to this podcast and do everything we're talking about, and I promise you you will be successful. You will return to growth. The stuff is not necessarily rocket science. It's kind of common sense. And now it's the time to act because, you know, as I said, these large corporations that house you, you and give you this full sense of security. They are failing and they're going to fail increasingly. So enforced rent of great I want to you know before we kind of button this up a little bit and it's been amazing and, as we talked before we hit recorded, I'm sure we could go a lot longer. Why? I know we could, because you're you already spoke to the continuity, like your body of work over the past fifteen years or so. It is all one continuous, evolved story. I'm just going to tie back to the beginning, tie back two built to suck. The inevitability of it is that there's some life cycle that, just like a human being in a human body, if you treat your body poorly and you execute poorly, you don't exercise, you eat like garbage, you're going to pass sooner than someone who takes care. So you can, you can extend, but there's an inevitability and we all are day always arrives to die, and so it's interesting with, you know, with the HMS Begal, the Darwin Reference, which is a biological reference. It's a survival of the fittest. There's kind of biological undertone to this conversation, do you think? And in the same thing with civilizations, right, so civilizations are human constructed in a way, but they also are organic and to have a little bit of a life of their own. Have you thought on that theme, like this theme that ties the human lifespan with a civilization lifespan, with a corporate life's and what is the biological underpinning here? Have you do every thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean totally, you're you're totally on the...

...mark. I'm bobb leardies, who's the CEO of the Association of national advertisers. They are the body that you know kind of you know, houses all of these senior marketers at these corporations. So I'm just reading his endorsement. He said. I'll just you know he said. This time he's brilliantly demonstrated how companies, ages are just like people. Corporations must stay young, certain agile or face the outcome of an early death. So he's even taking this idea of premature death right. This is, you know, this is clogged arteries and and incredibly high levels of cholesterol and so on and so forth. Dolwin said it is not the strongest of species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one that is the most adaptable to change. So part of this anecdote is is change, you know, and this and part of it is transformation and reinvention. Like you know, I a little bit of fun in the book, which is at the time apple and both Amazon had become the first trillion dollar market cap company. So I said, well, we need a term, right, we call billet billionaire, you know, billion dollar market CAP companies UNICORNS. So I think I came up with Phoenix, and the other one I was thinking of was Hydra, which is more to just colored death to everybody else but the Phoenix. The interesting thing about the Phoenix is, and I did a little bit of research, is there's really only one at any given time, and it's funny because apples dropped off since. But I think, yes, I mean absolutely so, you know, with age and with sighs, what's really happening from a cultural standpoint is legacy and incumbency and resistance to change and bad habits and silos. In fact, that was that, that was the the premise. The premise was that large companies today have become, you know, too big to political, too dysfunctional, to Silod you know, to risk averse. They're slowing down when the world is speeding up, and that's the essence, right. They are moving in a different direction to momentum, to change, and that's why, I mean, it's a very simple way of just saying like, ultimately, this is the road to the future and they're on the road out of town in the exact opposite direction. All Right, quick personal opinion here for you, because this also is a biological theme that I swear is not more than two steps away from where we, where we are right now. biohacking in Silicon Valley, blood transfusions with young people's blood, you know, the types of things that folks are doing to try to extend human life. I think, I believe, there's a gentleman who's Os announced formally that he's on a quest to live the two hundred or something. Any personal thoughts, are opinions on these, some of these what seem like over the type efforts to extend human life? Oh my God, that is and and and I use that phrase God. You know, humans playing God. That is not a question that that I expected to be us. I mean, listen, there are two ways to look at it, and I think it is kind of you either take a religious or an or complete agnostic or even an atheist point of view. Right. One is is, look how great we are and look look at all the tools that we have and by Golly, we're going to use them all to to, you know, just continue to soar close and closer to the sun, right, like chorus. which leads to the second part, which is at what point are we in fact playing God and and crossing the line? Mean my point of view, and you know I mean look at what happened with there and US, and there's been so much there's been so much stuff in the space. I think the inevitability in the reality, you know, bringing it back as objectively as possible, is it cannot be a bad thing that in maybe not in our lifetimes, but our children's, that there will be a cure for cancer. Right. We've seen it with HIV. So the ability for us to cure disease is fantastic and we should do more of that. The ability to live to two hundred, that's...

...going to come at a price and it just has to. When you look at population and overpopulation. Going back to corporate citizenship. I actually talked about in the book. How you know, I encounter them. I'm very familiar with an organization that called called Global Citizen and they put on this big concert and and Hugh who stoughted it. His whole mission is to make poverty history by two thousand and thirty. Well, what's going to happen if we're living to to? I mean it's just it's going to be insane. Right, all these mad, megalomaniacal, you know, over population. Remember the movie the Kingsman, and all these maniacal, you know, kind of villains trying to cure it. Just it takes us down down a part that we may not get, you know, get back from. Thank you so much for that diversion. I appreciate I'm glad I could surprise you. I think so you. I'm excited to hear your answers to couple standard closes that we do here, because we're all about relationships. You were so quick and so kind to respond to my inquiry. I saw that that built to suck had been released. I saw your facebook post. Reached out and we did not set this up any more than say, sixteen hours ago. So again, we're all about relationships. I like to end these these conversations with your opportunity to thank or mention a person who's had a positive impact on your life or on your career, as well as a company that you feel is doing and you've already named several, so think of maybe one more who's doing customer experience the right way, who's really delivering for you. Well, I you know, it's funny. I mean I think I'm just going to point to people that are actually on the back of my book. Philip Cler, professor, Philip Cotler, who, you know, I learned marketing and I was in spite. I didn't even know that I was going to specialize, but when I read his book when I was at College, I was like this is who I am, this is who I want to be. Richard TOBACCAWALAH's always been like a role model on a mental one of the smartest guys I know. You know, just just incredibly succinct and cynical, but in a beautiful way, and super, superintelligent. You know, those are two people that are even on the back of my book. And then you've got, you know, other people like Chris Burgrave, who used to be the the CMO OF A B in Bev run, Budweiser, or they're super bodvertising. Before that he was a coke. I think the privilege of becoming really good friends with my ex clients who are now, you know, consultants or whatever, and building relationships with marketers. And it was funny because at the back his endorsement he he said, Jeffy may appear to be the highest sparrow of Paranoia, which you know, if you if you watch game of thrones, you know who the highest sparrow was and the reference. And then I said to him wait, Chris, hold on a second. You know that the highest sparrow basically got nuked by the wildfire, you know, and him and all these disciples got kind of bond and he said, well, that's the price of being a heretic and that's what you are. But then he does come back and calls me Andy Grove to point, which is a much bigger compliment. So I think, you know, the ability to cultivate these relationships within the market, in community with thought leaders, with executives, and move together to move the industry forward. It's a collective body of people and conversations that have made their mark on me. Awesome is in is there another company that that you feel like? You know? You say, did the football club there in New York? I forget the the hotel. Is that a Ritz Carlton? It was a well, Ritz Carlton's great too, but like the four seasons, yeah, I mean they're many, there are many examples. But you know what I almost you know, one thing I said was I'm going to give you a lot of this, the expected companies, right, the Nikes, the apples, the Netflix, the Amazons, but I want to explain to you why we cite them all and the reasons why they've they've done so well. The other one is starbucks. I'm just really, really it's not just a great brand, but everything from going back to the talent pod right parttime barristers, giving them full healthcare and and stock options and benefits and...

...fraternity and maternity. This is the way to think about running and building a business. The starbucks experience and and it is the one company that I actually write at the end of the book I go through the four pillars and I show how they're delivering against each one. So you know I'm paying homage to the companies that we admire, but I'm explaining to why we admire them and what they're doing right and what they're doing really, really well and, of course, at the same time calling out some of the companies that want Joseph Jfe. This has been awesome. I sincerely appreciate your time. I value your insides. I love what you've contributed to just called the conversation at large in the way that you continue it. Congratulations on your fifth book. If someone wants to connect with you online or wants to check out built to suck, what are some ways that people should connect with you? Thank you for asking. The books website is built to Suckcom. That's when I knew it had to be called that, because that I couldn't believe it was even available. So built to suck will actually give you a lot of stuff. Besides obviously please pre order the book from Amazon, do it early and often, and you can link to to that from the site. But there's a lot of good stuff on that that website. There's the ability to download piece of Ip that I created called the survival planning canvas and the startup survival planning canvas. It's free. I didn't want to like, you know, have people register. I want people to live this and and build their survival plants. There's a lot of bonus content there and I'm starting a little blog as well where I'll talk about companies that suck and companies that I'm placing on what I called Death Watch as well. So built to suck is one place, and obvious place. The HMS Bigal like alluding to Dolwan. We help our clients navigate the journey to survival because we believe everyone is in the survival business nowadays, and that RL is the HMS B goldcom. And then, of course, you know I'm pretty much Jeffy dous on every social media platform. I have to admit I'm the most act of these days on instagram. I just happened to kind of live this more of visual world. I'm probably the least act of on twitter and and and facebook. They just have really lost their shine as far as I'm concerned. But you know, when somebody calls me out good old bed I typically know about it and I will respond to you. Excellent. I wouldn't expect anything different from you. I so appreciate your time. Thanks for going long on this episode. I hope everyone enjoyed it and I bid you a great rest of your day and a wonderful weekend ahead. Thank you, and it was absolutely my pleasure. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're in trusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. Rehumanize the experience by getting facetoface through simple, personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bomb bombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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