The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

44. The 3 Components of Trust for Better Customer Relationships w/ Cory Scheer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Every time Cory Scheer puts on his Brooks running shoes, he has a great experience. 

He doesn’t get blisters and his feet feel comfortable.

And when it’s time for a new pair of shoes, he turns to Brooks.

So, how do you create experiences like this? Experiences that make your customers want to come back again and again?

On this episode of The Customer Experience podcast, Cory joined us to talk about why building trust is the key to developing a loyal customer base. 

Cory currently serves as Director of Church and Community Engagement at Pleasant Valley Baptist Church. Previously, he’s been the Business Director at a whitewater rafting company in Colorado, VP of Strategic Partnerships at the YMCA of Greater Kansas City, and Dean of Admissions at William Jewell College. 

He also earned an Executive MBA and a Doctorate in Education, completing his doctoral work on the topic of trust, value, and loyalty in relational exchanges.

Check out our podcast on Apple Podcasts/Apple Podcasts, or on Google Podcasts/Google Play, or Spotify and even on Stitcher.

 

Most organizations start with: Let'sincrease the value propesition. How are we going to do it? You know how re wegoing to do this with with challenge in this particular area. How do wemaintain our value proposition? It really does not start with value. Itstarts with trust. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host eath, an Beaute, hey, welcome back to the customer experience podcasttoday were talking trust how to cultivate it within our organizationsand with our customers. I think it's one of those things that is easy totalk about, but we might not be talking about the same thing or it's easy totake for granted and lose sight of the fact of how fundamentally important itis and that it's a skill in a value that we need to be building betweeneach other and so you're about to get some practical evidence based ways tostrength and trust through relational exchanges and our guest is superdynamic. He's been the business director at a Whitewater RaftingCompany out here in Colorado, where I live, he's been the vice presidentofstrategic partnerships at the YMC of Greater Kansas City, he's been the deanof Admission at William Jewell College and presently he's the director ofChurch and community engagement at Pleasant Valley, Baptist Church inLiberty Missouri. He earned a bachelor of science and speech, communicationand community recreation and executive NBA and a doctorate in educationalleadership and Policy Analysis and as a fun fact last detail here, he'scompleted twenty eight marathons, including New York, Boston and Chicagothree times. Corysher. Welcome to the customer experience podcast and thankyou ethand. It's awesome to be on here with you. I really appreciate I, thejust the chance to connect yeah. I think you know the work that you'vedone in the range of work that you've done. You know, obviously trust beingthe subject of your dissertation and probably a lot it's beyond that. It'sso deeply entwined. I imagine in so many of the various roles andsituations you found yourself in and so I'm looking to really get into all ofthat in a formal land in formaway, and I typically start with asking you tofind customer experience which we will do. But first I want to ask you: Do youhave any brand loyalties around running shoes? So I guarantee you put on a lotof miles like probably put as many miles out of your shoes, as some peopledo on their cars. And so what's your running shoe situation, because I runto not nearly as much as you like. What's your loyalty situation there Itay, I have a fierce brand loyalty to brooks running shoes and there's oneparticular model. It's the glycerin running shoe and it's the WI SOS thedoublly and I have I have run of those shoes forprobably three or four years now and I had one blister in all of my races. Sobefore that I was, I was running with Nikes and I thought well, everyone runswith Nikees because they're they're everywhere and they look great, but Irealized after I was getting blisters nearly every other long run. I just hadto mixe switch, and so I got fitted appropriately switched over to brooksand the shoes the gliscerings are kind of theire highering model, so ther're,a hundred fifty bucks, a pop and after four hundred and fifty miles got torotate your shoes, so they're a little bit more money, but tha I'm willing topay for the noblestter. A they've been awesome shoes. How about yourself? I run in the Brooks Ghost which is kindof like it's also a neutral light weight shoe, as is the Gliterin, and it's only, I think, the new models. Ahundred and thirty bucks. S's like it's like one step down but same thing, isyou I like. I was like Okay Iam kind of serious about this, not as serious asyou, so I went to a specialty store I put on six or eigh different brands. Itwas definitely the right one for me and just fun fact for everyone. ListeningCory came to me through a previous podcast Guas, curt Bartole Tho, whotalked about how to protect your brandhes, a he's he's a brand builder,but even more he's a brand conservation. It's like how do we protect what's goodabout our brands, and so that's a past episode. You can listen to you cancheck it out of bombomcom l podcast or in your favorite podcast player, butI've also had Rachel Ostranduron from Brooks running she's, the director ofrunner experience. So I had her on as well after we hang this up I'll, sendyou that link and if you're listening I'll, send that to you cory but F tolisteners again, you can find that both of those are in the first ten episodesof the show so definitely go back and fish out some cool sounding brands andpeople and topics, because we've been doing these conversations and each oneof them has their own magic to them. Mi'm super glad I asked that Brook isan awesome company actually visited them to. When I was in Seattle, RoIsgreat, we I mean we hits like a monument to Brux in my closet. I havestacks of old running shoes which turn into long knowing shoes are the mostcomfortable lonmoing shoes, but I love...

Brooks II'll, be a champion from themfor a long time, not a running champion. A brand champion sure your champion,your champion within your own circle of influence there. So let's go:Let's go to a formal open like how, when I say customer experience, whatkind of thoughts or feelings or words is that conjure for you, yeah hat's.You know were talking a little bit before e. We came on here and this thiswhole enotion of when you walk away from casfor experience. It seems, likeyou, walk away with there's a Resitdu that you walk away with, so you eitherhave a really good residue or a poor residue or give no residue at all fromthat experience, and so the goal is that we want to try to interact withcompanies where we have a really positive residue, and so I think, we'veprobably all been in situations where you walk away and something didn't feelright or you can. You can put your finger on something that was definitelywhat I would consider kime of violation on a brand violation or a trustviolation, or you also have like I have with my broks running shoes, everysingle time I run in those shoes. It's a really good experience and I don'thave blisters. I have good experiences my feet: feelt good and there's nothingbetter than putting on a brandew pair of brook shoes for me and from my foot,but also just Rin, regards to the the customer experiences that we've hadas a family with four kids. We have a lot of a different opportunity: toninteract with different companies, and so I sometimes my radar and mysensitivity to brand or customer experience. Sometimes it can actuallybe a little bit too sensitive because I'm in this work- and I think about itquite a bit- I'm curt actually- and I we've had a lot of conversations aroundthis and so but that residue. We want that positive residue from our customerexperiencis that we can continue to build upon because then we'll come back,because we want more of that yeah love it. I like the language you use there,that is new language. I've asked now nearly fifty people that question I've,never gotten the scene answer twice and typically I'll get some new layer likeyou've offered here like new specific language about reside, is like it addsa tangibility to thinking about it. You know a lot of people. Lot of us willtalk through our thoughts and definitions of customer experience andit doesn't seem as like, tangible or visual like I can see. What's left youknow after that exchange. So let's, let's get a little bit into the end ofthe trust topic, because you have a special level of expertise here. Yourdissertation was titled Trust, Value and loyalty in relational exchanges,and so I thought it'd be a fun exercise to maybe walk through each one of those.So let's break down that title again the words for folks that are listening,trust value, loyalty and relational exchanges. So, let's start with trust,I mean, obviously it's a big one, but you know give me a give me a mediumsize, take on trust like when you're talking about trust or when people whoare doing formal academic, quantified, workaround trust. What exactly are wetalking about? That's that's a huge question and such an important one forall of us who are in the market place whether we're a formal later with witha specific job tittle or we had influence whatever and whatever levelof organ organizational leadership. We have so how? I think about trust andreally what I learned about trust through my ductral word at Mzoo, therewere three authors of an article. Their their names are Sir deshmock sable andsing, and they wrote this article called Trostpo loyalty and relationalexchanges, and so what they did was they built this framework, this modelaround measuring value in valational exchanges, and so in their learning.They identified three things, trust value and loyalty, and they wanted toidentify. was there a linear relationship between the three or was it just about trust or just aboutvalue or just about loyalty? And so then, what they did was they offeredsome some structural elements of trust D and how they identified it is theysaid? Okay, if we were to break trust down into two big buckets or two bigareas, one bucket would be frontline employees and then one bucket would bepolicies and procedures. So, if you think about the structure or the bonesof trust, those are the two buckets that that that kind of live or comprisetrust so from that employees and then policism, recedures and then withineach of those. There are three primary components that they measured, and sothey did this imperibal research in the airline industry and in the retailindustry. There was another another author who did doctral work inHiger Ed. He did quantitative work and his last name is Carbalo, and then Idid qualitative work and higher red using the same theoretical framework sobut in friontlond employees and policism receigers the three elementsthat are critical, so these must all be accomplished in order for trust to bebuilt. The first one is is that there...

...has to be a level of conpidence. Sowhen you think about a front unemployee or a policy of procedure, it has to becompident, and that's that seems so obvious. But when something is notcompinent like a policy or a Fronto, enemployee, there's a brand and a trustviolation that occurs. The second thing outside of confidence is problem.Solving so think in terms of maybe an employee that you worked with in thepast, or a policy and procedure that you've interacted with in your currentwork or a past work where it has been not a problem solver, but actually aproblem creator in the level of stress hat that puts on the organizationwhether it's fough people or policy, and so that is actually a structuralelmount of trust. where, if there's more problem, making them problemsolving occurring, then trust is actually going to drop down. And thenthe final one is really really an interesting one and it has to do withoperational benevolence. Meaning does that friend Onemployee or does thatpolicy put other people's needs before their own? So here's the interestingthing about the structure of trust. If you don't have all three of thoseyou'll actually start losing trust and that's challenging because you mighthave the most compenent individual in your organization, but if they don'thave problem solving skills or if they're not benevolent, it's going tobe very, very difficult. So if they are a problem solver, but they have nobenevolence, no conpidence you're going to have issues and if they arebenevolent they're a pushover because they don't have any confidence orproblem solving skills, that's going to be difficult same thing along the lineswith with policies. I use the example of the office, so the office is likethis amazing case, study of organizational leadership and trust,building and trust violation. So in the office you know Jim, he is like themost benevolent person he's, not a problem. Solver and he's definitelynevery compitent an his actual job, but he people love him and he loveseveryone, except for Digt, so he's what I would call the hardest person to fireand an organization very benevolent low confidence, low problem, tovicg andthen you've got dlihe. He was like the most confident salesperson. He can sellpaper to a forest of trees right, but he has no problem solving skills andhe's not benevolent at all man about Michael who is the supposed boss of theoffice. He's got none of the three. He has no confidence, no problem, sovingand absolutely no benevolence, but the beauty of that show is that it kind offlips the model and that's why I think it allows people to come back to watchmore because the person in the office that actually demonstrates all three ofthose trust elements, benevolence compedence and problem solving is Pamand she is the person that has technically the least amount ofinfluence within the organization. However, she is the primary trustbolder in that show, so that's kind of a good way for me to think about whenwe, when you think about the structure of trust and even in my own work,whether it's, whether I'm working with people or I I'm developing a procedure aroundsomething. I can ask myself those questions very simply. Okay. Is thisthe most competent approach? Is this the problem, solving approach and thenin my actually putting other people's knees before my own, so what theseauthors did, because they then took that and they said. Okay, if we do haveall of this trust that will then naturally lead to increased value. Sothe value proposition naturally rises. Okay, so think about trust as the watercoming into the pond. And then value is the boat that's rising because there'strust underneath it and then the loyalty is the experience that peoplehave as a result to trust it's being built strong value proposition and thenthe loyalty, that's the reside that people want that continue to come backto that. But if you're violating that in any of those three areas, problemssolving compitence or benevolence, there's a natural tendency for trust toactually start to decline, and so that that mental framework has been sohelpful for me, because it allows me to compartmentalize the elements of trust,and so that's how I would define each each of those elements. And the mostimportant thing is that trust has to occur before value and then value. Itleads to loyalty, most organizations start with: let's increase the valueproposition. How are we going to do it? You know how aewere going to do thiswith with a challenge in this particular area. How do we maintain ourvalue proposition? It really does not start with value. It starts with trust. I would guess that price starts to comeinto play when those pieces are broken like or when one of them is missing, orone of them is weak by the way. That was amazing for those ve who arelistening. There's a thirty second back button. For a reason: it's either a yougot interrupted or B. Threrge is something that was so good orinteresting or useful, such as your office analogy, which resonated verywell with me and I'm sure, will anyone who watched the show probably saw allof it instead of just a couple. Episodes so feel free to bounce backand catch back up to us here, but I'm...

...going to guess that, in the absence oftrust due to any of those, those three elemental failures or absences, or evenjust weaknesses, right strong as the weakest link, whatever that pricestarts to come into, plays, you start messing with the value propits like Iwould just lower the price and see if that will buy our way out of the factthat we can't build trust. That's exactly right. I mean, if you think,about your greatest customers. Experience environments thatyou'Veyou've been a part of YOUV, probably been loyal to thatcustomer experience. You've gone back to it or you've had really finememories, and you may have even said o yourself. I can't believe I paid thatmuch for that, but it was amazing. It was so worth it and that's where trustis it's critical and I think that I it's very naturalu natural for us tothink about trust. I think that we do all have trust radars so to speak,where we just go that and feel right. So one example that I use is, if youever have a grumpy southwest airlines employee that Yeah Tat. I can think ofthat, doesn't feel right when you do I've had a couple and it's like wow,like they're, not going to be with this company very long, and so you knowsouthose airlines there and so many of case studies as related to business,which they're therefor a reason. But when you think about southwostairline's actual value proposition, they really don't have that great of avalue proposition compared wit, some of the other airlines. They don't have TVsin the back of their seats. You know the boarding process for a lot ofpeople. They don't really like it. They just put up with it. No matter how manytimes I twenty four hours in advance of my boarding time, I'm always b thirteenor lower. It's like how does that absolutely ow Hodos that actuallyhappen, but what Southwest Airlines his done? They have mastered the element ofbuilding trust with their friend UND employees and then their policies andprocedures. The one policy that is so vital to them. If their bags fly, freepolicy went away. So imagine they say: Hey Back Wy pre back Pi prepolicy isgoing to go away so that we can increase the value proposition for ourcustommerse so that they have TVs in the back of their seats and they havebetter food options on their flights. T it would be a revolt. Thet would have amass exodus, because people have come to trust and love that backs ply freepolicy, and if that went away, that would be an ultimate trust vilolationfor solfpostairlines. It's really interesting. We fly a lot out of Denver.We're in Colorado Springs, which, for folks that aren't familiar is likewe're about forty five minutes south of South Denver and about in ninetyminutes from the airport, because hecorts way out east and we used to flyfrontier a lot. They have a lot of gates in Denver and there were you know,TVs in the back of the seats like like good standard policy and then slowly.They change their model to go kind of down market toward what I think is likea spirit or an allegiant where all of a sudden, you have to pay for your badcheck, you have to pay for a bag, carry on you have to pay. If you want to pickyour seat, you have to pay more. Of course, if you want to pick a good seedlike all of this kind of craziness, and so you know we just stoppe flying andthat's when the company split and now we have southwest people in UnitedPeople- and you know some people are, you know, still do what they're goingto do, but your point of like we for the first two years or so when westarted doing a lot more trade shows and conferences and expos and things wewere. We were very actively flying paying a brand. I would make it evenmore generic paying a brand for their service, paying a company for theirservice, and then the rules started to change on us and you don't realize therules are changing because there e Arnany headlines about it until thenext time. You go to to book. You know like to your point. This doesn't feelthe same. This doesn't look the same effect. This isn't the same yea and sothat that Tou finty tem. What you experiece was a trust violation asrelates to their benevolence, towards you, meaning baby by them, notcommunicating to you by them not considering what your experience wasgoing to be the in the new way with a new policy shift. They have actuallyviolated trust free because they're now, no no long on being benevolent they're,not looking ut for the needens of their customers with southwest airlines. It'samazing how many people they book southwest without price shopping theyjust fly southwest. They totally trust that the price is going to be at ournear industry standard, but that's a pretty big purchase to not do priceshopping on. We don't do that with other exs within our companies or othervendors, but with south was that such tremendous friand loyalty? But if yougo upstream beyond the value proposition, it really is more of anelement of trust for them and they've mastered it, and, and so now thechallenges. I think for them they have to uphold that and they are known forthat, and so because of that, that provides for them tremendousaccountability as a company. So I'm curious ethen as you so you've beenwith your company now around eight years. So can you kind of think ofmaybe like a season or like a policy or...

...a procedure where you Oll as a team,you really thought more in terms of this is a more of a value proposition.How do we make it more trustworthy kind of I try to ask that of businessleaders, because I'm I'm fascinated by how they've been able to apply thiselement of trust without them really even putting structure to it. They justdo it intutively. Is there something that you cin your work there whereyou're like that's something that we move from a value proposition to reallyin more of a focus on building trust? I don't know I'll offer you the firstthing that comes to mind, and then you can tell me what like what I've offeredyou we're talking about. Bom Bomb wore software companies subscribed by monthsor by year. We make it really easy to record and send video messages from ourwebap from our mobile aps from Gmail Outlook, sales, force, outreach and abunch of other instances and then then track all the results, its e llows toto get face to face with more people more often because it's better thanrelying exclusively on plane, type, oubt, Texas, we're trying to get intorelational exchanges and build trust and offer and deliver value ind. Thesekinds of things is we're better face to face. So that's what our whole Mo is.So we've gone back and forth over the years and kind of various iterations ofyou know. First, it was a thirty day money back guarantee. Then we moved tomore of a brand promise, which was, if you use this, and you don't improveyour results. However, you define it will give you all your money back. Sowhat we did in that ideration was in. We believe this. If you send ten videosto people, let's just say to say, thank you or hey. How are you it's been awhile? I guarantee you're going to get replies and responses that, let youknow this is a different and better way to communicate, and so that woat thatwas our deas like we know this works, and so, instead of just a blanketsomeone looking at themselves in the camera and feeling uncomfortable likethat, natural vulnerability that always occurs and just bailing right away.We're like we wanted to create this situation where, like trust us, if youuse this and you make it to the other side of this initial little barrier,you're never going to look back because we've seen it for thousands of peoplebefore you soare like if you use it and you don't improve your results. Howredefine int more replies more responses, more clicks through youremails, higher lead conversion, better ability to stay in touch more firls,whatever you know, whatever you're trying to get own more appointments setand held whatever we'll give you all your money back, but you got to try,and so we wrote this framework around it and we published it- and it was likeyou know, you have to you know- will do personal coaching with you and then youhave to. I don't remember what the details are so make them up here sinceit's not in place. I guess it doesn't matter how exactly accurate I get. Youknow if you send five videos within a week's time after we do a one on oneconsultation with you and you say Nope, let me go we'll just we'll. Just letyou go hundred percent refund and the cool thing was we broke out of thatthirty day window to right. So it wasn't just this. You know thirty days,give someone an easy like an easy, Hout whre. They won't act so anyway, so wewent with that a little bit, but it was being sold a little bit differentlythan it was being executed. On the you know, the salesside and the customersuccess side there's a little bit of tension and miscommunication there, thecustomers hearing one thing: When they're you know at this point ofmaking a decision to provide a credit card number, but then as they get intoit, and they maybe want to cash it out. They're like Oh, I actually have to dosomething that wasn't my understanding of the promise in the beginning, and soyou know, we've kind of walked away from that and we're in we're back towhere we started, which is this kind of case by case situation, where we'llreally will really push you a little bit because w we are doing behaviorchange. This is new behavior. This is a new tool in your tool set. There was atime well before you and I cory were walking to Earth or running the earththat people didn't sell by telephone they sold only in person and throughletters and mailings right like they have telephones on their sales desks.This is essentially like a twenty first century telephone showing up and thething that's going to allow you to be more effective. More often in all thesethings, so we still will challenge you to pick up this new tool and make it go,because we know that it works weve seen it work for thousands and thousands ofpeople, nd e, and we know we can encourage you and we know how hard thismight be for you. So anyway, it's gone through various iterations, and nowit's kind of I honestly don't personally know where it is because thecompany's big enough, they don't know everything anymore. That was a fun era.By the way there were a couple years there I knew everything righ and soanyway go offor that I'll offer that what do you? What do you take thereyeah? Well, it's really interesting how you moving just a little bit away fromthat kind of value proposition of that here's a thirty day. You know thirtyday anything, THAT'S A value proposition! That's a belly propositionframework, because it's like okay, thirty days, we've heard it before werefamiliar with it, but that's very price driven and so, but then also you have,as you have moved away from that what I love about. Moving away from that youstill kept the essence of it where you're challenging people but you'remaking accustomed to their needs. So what you're doing there you're?Naturally, that's a competent approach,...

...that's intended to solve their problemswith them, but then also and you're, trying to help them understand theproblems that they don't understand that they have yet that's what you'retrying to do, but then, third, it really is looking ut for their needs,because it's custom because they may now wont a Thirty Day. They may wanttoattend it they mad onea forty buve Ay. They may not even want to talk aboutthat, so you guys have. Naturally, with that procedure, you have moved towardsmore of a trust model and I'll show this with you and to the listeners.Ethan did not ask me to do this. I will just offer this, so I had not met you yet. If then, Kurthad introduced us and then ou ento an email back to me- and you held up myname and that was on the frame of the of the first email that you sent to meand then it was the bombon video, it literally redefined email for me in Mymin I've. Never I've never had something where it's like with email.It's like Yo email, you type your email, you get another email, you generatemore email, but that was one of the first times. I've ever really had thatexperience. I've Seen Bombon, but I've never had someone interact with me withmy name held up. Hi was so powerful to engage me and I clicked through, and Ilistened in and it read to find email for me. It became a new way ofcommunicating, and so that was very powerful, and that was a trust buildingexperience for me, as I kind of then, and also just to find your a commitmentto say, I'm going to write your name down, I'm going to hold it up, becauseI know that you're going to see it because I care enough. I'm going tospell your name right when I write your name down, I'm going to look to makesure that I'm writing your name right and then, as I interact with that, thatwas just such a cool experience. So what you guys are doing it's all B,Building Trust for you guys and this really gigantic area of email, and youhave done a great job of redefinding that space and it sounds like you'redoing it through through trust, so well done. Yeah. Thank you and in most ofthe use cases are around this, like you know we're asking for people aspeople on the business side of the business, not Bombom, but any businessright. We do a ton of business in you, know large sales organizations, largecustomers, success organizations all the way down to individualpractitioners, whether they're, you know like solopreneurs, who arebuilding a coaching business or financial advisors, real estate,mortgage insurance, automotive, typically buysas, a team we're doingall kinds of different business, and all of these people are trying to do.The same thing is so much of the initial touch in a customer experience.These days is digital right, I'm checking out websites or I'm readingonline reviews or whatever the case may be, and now I'm going to engage withthe company because I'm not buying a widget right, I'm not booking anairline ticket. I know how to do that. I'm not buying something where I canjust read three reviews and decide whether to buy this or the other thingor you and I going back to a running shoe. We do need to engage with a realperson. I want to put on multiple pairs of shoes. I don't like I love thatZabost is going to be willing to take my shoes back and pay for the return.If I don't like them- and even let me run in them, but I don't want to dothat four or five times with four or five brands, I want to show up at astore and have a have someone who's going to judge my gate and judge. Mypronation help fit me in the right shoe and I coul Domot like so there's somethings that are better done with people and some things that are that arebetter done exclusively digital and so we're working with people that arestill doing things where human ads value, reduces complexity, reducestension, reduces emotional anxiety or fear walks you through through you,know, detail and nuance and again complexity, and so, in a lot of thesecases, those relationships are starting digital. So how do I know you're morethan an email signature, some people have a preference for dealing peopledealing with people that are in the states right like. I don't want to knowthat my support tickets going. You know halfway around the world by someonethat doesn't really know who I am because Tyoy don't live my experienceand all these other things. So when you just raise your hand and say hey, I'm areal person, I'm the face. That goes with this name, an the email signature,I'm the guy that left you that voice maile and then this is the superpowerfor part. I see you cory. I hear you Corian Curd about why we should gettogether, and I understand you, I've looked you up online. I would love tohave you on the show, etcea etcer, and so this ability for me to be seen, hurtand then to also let you know. As a fellow human being that I see you andhear you is like that's that's it. That's where it's at it isand you're not. You know, you're, not you're, not generating that on yourcell phone, while you're walking to your next meeting like you areintentionally slowing down and it's almost like campfire experience ans,you know what we're engaging in right now, because I see you, you see mewe're in our own element. We have our own stories for sharing stories, maybemore freely, because we have the Technologyo Bers to be able to do that.There's something about sitting around a campfire, whether it's in the bottomof the rnan in the bottom of the Grand Canyon or out in your driveway forHalloween, where something very powerful about the campfire, justcreats, these storytelling...

...opportunities, and so I just Iappreciated that interaction. I was very powerful for me and I immediatelythought to myself. That is a trust building approach. It reallyit reallyis it's not about value? It's not about efficiency. It does take a little bitmore work there. It does require a little bit more intentionality withthat, but you guys, obviously you guys have figured that out. It's awesomeyeah, thank you and, and once you get basically comfortable with the process,it will save time because we speak about four times faster than we type soan and some things are just easier to describe and with a screen recordingwhere you can have your little face on there and walk someone through documentor a presentation or something like th. There's some efficiency place thereanyway. So so you did a great job describing trust, value and loyalty inthe relationship to one another. The elements of trust just before we get onand get maybe into some practical advice that you've seen in working withsome of the leaders and organizations you've worked with about how to dotrust better in our organizations and our andor with our customers definethat last element K. What O you? What are we getting at with that termrelation Al Exchanges Yeah, I think relational axchanges, the the originalauthors of the model. I think what they were talking about is anytime, that weare interacting with a company, so that may be in a customer, a truecustomer service experience or it could be a relational exchange where I'minteracting with a braining element or a creatov creative element, becausethere was that company is developing a relationalbridge with me. So I may not necessarily be connecting person inperson, because I'm actually interacting with something that aperson created so that I might have a deeper experience with that particularorganization, but what the research that they did was primarily with peopleto people. My particular research focused on I was. I was shruck by thisreality that in Higheret over twenty percent of freshmen, who come into acollege environment over twenty percent of them their sophomore year, theyleave that particular college and they will either go to another school orthey will drop out and when you think about the economic impact of twentypercent of your customer base, leaving your company after a year and then,when you think about it in terms of how long that sales cycle is in order toacquire that particular customer that student. So my daughter she's a juniorright now and she has now formally begin that sales process, it's a longsale cycle and for a business it's really challenging to have longsalescycle lower attenption. That's that's Tougph, that's a very, very toughbusiness model, and so now that always just that kind of buged me an earth tome, because we were working so ar to get students on campus, and I wasthinking to myself. Why is this occurring and it's occurring across thecountry? Most schools have about a twenty to twenty four percent attritionright after their freshman year, and so what I did was I used this model and Iwas really curious about for the students that did stay. These were thestudents that they hade gone at least to their sophomore year junior year andthen senior year. So I interviewed all four levels of grade and, as I did thatI was asking these questions around your perception of value, because Ithought that it was about value. But I really learned that it was more abouttrust. And what was fascinated to me was the number one indicator of successfor a student or the number one kind of catalyst: the Movement to soce year toJunor year to senior year. It was it was not necessarily the institutionitself or even the brand power of that institution. It was actually thefrontline employees which, in the context of hired, is the professors orthe coaches, and so the bond that is created with professors and coaches,it's so powerful for Highr ed, because they are the people who are literallymoving people, those customers, those students through that customerexperience, which is a long, intense life, changing experience for studentsand so without professors. Without coaches, itwould be impossible for a higherd institution to be able to actually getstudents to graduation. So the research that I did really validated that andyou think about the number of relational exchanges that a student aswith their professors and that's why higher ed institutions they've got tohire great professors and they got to hirer professors who really understandwhat does it mean to build trust with those students? And then you know,that's why? I think a lot of colleges have now a faculty advisor model wherethey got faculty members that are not only teaching but they're, alsoadvising students and so they're, really helping from a competentstandpoints, Tor, helping solv problems and they're doing this on behalf of thestudents. So that was such cool...

...research to be able to find and Validatto go. That's the key. The professors are the key in the researce that I didas related to the primary trust. builvers is not the fifty milliondollar student center and those are great things. It's not the great food,that's a good thing: it's not the dorm rooms that have you know really nice furniture in it.It I mean those are all good things. Those are adding value to theexperience, but ultimately it's the professors who are building the trustso interesting. It's super super interesting because all in thatscenario, because that is a you know, if you're choosing to physically attendon campus you've moved beyond I'm going to watch youtube videos or some ofthese. You know online courses and these other things paid over free,regardless you're intentionally choosing this, and it does come down tothat human engagement. That makes the difference that, like you know, whenyou're evaluating your comparing to schools, you'real going to look at likeyeah, but this one has you know the cafeterias with that much better andmore interesting menu. They do Sushi twice a week or whatever you know, andthat stuff like adds up and like allows me to check my box, but ultimately whenwe decide to commit and declear loyalty to ourselves in our own heads throughour behavior or consciously or subconsciously or whatever it's aboutthat human relationil exchange is so interesting. I'm just fun fact you justtrigger me on Bombom by like by bringing it up one. We have a lot offolks in admissions offices using this to reach out to perspective studentsand, of course, their parents, because it's a dual sale there. You have tosell everybody on it and then chapter five of the the book Icoauthored with Steve Passonality, called rehumanize your business aboutthis process of uusing, simple personal videos. The story I tell in the openingof chapter five is a college professor. He teaches online only for Caneciuscollege and University of Buffalo, and he sends videos to the whole class tostart the semester and then throughout the semester, as he's giving feedbackor answering questions or whatever he tends to do it with videos and hisstudent ratings were so high that the tenured that that the people on thephysical campus asked him to come in o d teach the tenured professors how touse video to build these relationships, and so anyway, it's all right there,let's go to the other side with this, has been awesome and I feel like I keepgoing for like an hour and a half, but I won't ask you to do that. You know Iwas going to ask you to talk about building employee, facing trust and orcustomer facing trust, but I guess I'll go I'll blend those and see like inyour experience talking with people and doing your research. Where do we gowrong on trust, besides, maybe taking the whole dynamic in the the importanceof relational exchanges and leaving positive residue set all that to theside like the taking it for granted pece? What A, what are we activelydoing to go wrong on trust, Yeah Lu? WHAT GETS IN OUR WAY? What are itsimpediments? It's a great question. You know a simple framework that I'm a I'm a bigfan of liker skabills. I think liker scales they just they dimensionalize,at least in my mind. Now I think it's like okay, it's either a one or five orwires in between, and so one of the things that I've developed as a tool toout talk about. This is a really simple likerscale. So if, for example, in yourown mind as you think about your own Organization for Employeeisan- andanyone can do this in with their employeeis when they think about ifthey think about a particular employee- and they do three questions so on ascal o one to fine, how competent is this individual FY being amazing, onebeing they got a lot of work or perhaps it's time for them to consider a new, anew role somewhere else? Okay, number: Two: Are they a problem solver? Thatwould be a five or are they a problem maker? That would be a one and thenumber three: how Benevolent are they? Are they looking out fom the needs ofothers? That would be a five or is it just all about them and all they careabout is thimself. That's a one. In the same way, you can apply that likerscale model to your policies and procedures which the other thing aboutpolicism procedures- pricing, that is a policcy. It may not be in the employeehandbook, but it very much is a policy, and so there are policies all overorganizations that they don't end up in a handbook, but they are driving anorganization, and so one of the things that I find helpful in talking withpeople about this is to say, if you can have this conversation around thestructure of trust before you actually have to evaluate whether or notsomethingis trustworthy what it does is it gives you an objective framework ofdiscussion, so you can, you can run your employee conversations or yourhiring decisions through the filter of this tructure or you can run thispolicy decision go okay hold on before we get into that. Let's make sure thatwe're evaluating this policy on the three criterian of building trust is acompinent, is a prom solving and is a benevolent, and then you can introducethat structure from a leadership...

...standpoint into the conversation andthen it's not about my preference or their preference or their power ortheir position, I'm just offering a model, and then, let's have aconversation around this an example of that would be situational leadershipthat was developed by Hersey and blancher. This amazing view on onleadership and how they talk about how we have to lead situationally and withmy team in my work at the Church that I work out, we have created Alexicon in alanguage around situational leadership, and so what would it look like for anorganization to say hey before we have any kind of conversations, whether it'semotional or biased or historical or whatever? Let's start with theframework of trust and then when Wi come out. On the end of that, we willknow that we have been true to our customer by ultimately Ar desire tobuil trust with them. And then, if you did an evaluation of, let's say apolicy and your rating was one three one, you probably need to look atchanging the policy to where it becomes a four three four, because a Honde andthree one meaning it's low competence. It kind of solves problems, maybe it'skind of neutral, but it really is only looking ut for the needs of our ownorganization, maybe from an efficiency standpoint. Ultimately that procedure,if a customeris interacting with it, it's going to reduce trust- and youdon't want that. But if you can catch that on the front end and say how mightwe tweak this just a little bit to where it's actually more compitent,more proem, solving and more benevolent the research? The empirical data showsthat it will build trust that will lead to higher perceive value regardless ofthe price, obviously of prising us to be within range, but it will also leadto loyalty. The beauty of the model is, it is empirical, it's proven inmultiple industries, and so it works, and it's just a really good way tothink in terms of from a leadership standpoint. I'm going to set the tablewith all the key components of the trust conversation now, let's have aconversation and dying around the table, there's nothing worse, Han, steppinginto a meeting where there's Jus, there's no food on the table. There'sno siler on the Tabes like what are we doing? Are we just talking here, but asa later, if we can set the table of Berperly, I think our conversations argoing to leave e more trustworthy endeavors with people as well as ourpolicies really good. I love the intentionality and bringing it to thefront of the conversation, just a point of clarity for me and hopefully onbehalf of listeners, who might have wondered the same thing. What Disbeneveolence look like as a five on your scale? Is that, like a true winwin where we're putting you know like because that's a lever right like isthis? Is this just a straight giveaway? So at one point just to go back to thething you offer challenge me with earlier. You know one point where justlike: If someone wants heur money back, we just giveem their money back. Noquestions ask doesn't matter when they aske for it and- and that was you know,the Customr has to take some responsibility. They were the ones thatsaid yes, I want to do this. We didn't take their credit card number, theyentered it into the website right, and so what is their responsibility here toto work it a little bit and draw some value? And you know where do we takeresponsibility so for this benevolence pieces? Your is you're writing thistension between. Are we doing this or making this decision or going this wayinstead of that way, are we all about US versus? Maybe the far other end isjust a total giveaway. That's actually not even in our own interest, like whatis a five and benevolence look like. Is this like a balanced win win where goodfor us good for them or what it talk a little bit of one layer deeper onbenevolence yeah, I think. Ultimately, it should be a Winwin, but where Ithink it's easier, just organ naturally organizationally it's easier for us tohave a whim internally and kind of well whatever it is for them. It is that'swhat it is and so the the win win. I think you know one recommendation mightbe talk to your existing customers, your champions and ask them, say: okay,if we were to take pricing out of your initial experiencas, we introduced thisto you. What might have been some other ways in which we might have just metyour needs better in that process. So, like I would say, let's have it on thisconversation with an existing company. That knows, they truly do know thevalue of your product right, but you got to trust her relationship to Wer.They can say honestly, it really wasn't about the thirty day guarantee orwhatever it was. It was actually just about that person that I talked to.They were unbelievable and their office looked really cool behind them and theyengaged me. They didn't bug me with too many conversations like it was right. Imean, I think it would be really interesting you guys- maybe you alreadydone this, but to actually do some datamining on some of your current orexisting customers. That are what I would call champions and allow them tostart shaping, because what might be really powerful about that is that, asyou rule something like that out and a...

...new benevolence strategy, you can sayhey this isn't just coming from a white board in a boardroom somewhere. This iscoming from existing companies. This is they told us. You could have been morebenevolent to us if you had done this more and we're learning from that. Imean that in and of itself, that process is benevolent to your futurecustomers. So that could be a really interesting way to approach that love.It at's a great tip. I Have I've two standard, clothed questions, but beforewe get there because of your experience in higher red- and I didn't quiteunderstand how tied to higher red your doctoral work was- and so I this reallymakes me one- ask- is any thoughts on higher education at a high level,especially when you introduced your daughters in the zone here. You'veobviously committed to it yourself. I feel like the combination of the costbenefit of. Let's just say, an undergraduate degree is obviously underthreat, because it's been so dramatically, outpacing inflation andeverything else on any index. For you know the cost of what you know. Thecost of everything is, is outpased all of it and then, of course like on theother side, there's kind of like hustle culture. You know if yo u'R, if you'retrue entrepreneur, like some of our best tontremuors or college dropoutsetce talk about your your thoughts of higher education. What is its value?What is its place n and from an experience standpoint, what's soimportant about that physical on campus kind of right of passage for some shareof our Americans yeah. That's a great question: It's a an honest olike thatwe're having with our daughter and our son, W he's a freshman and so he'll beentering into this, and so one of the things that we're starting at is at ina point of neutrality. So there's a lot of different options: Post High School.We want to look at them as equally as we can, even though my wife and I weboth have. You Know Higher Ed experiences, but they don't have to goto a school just because we went to that school and it's not assumed thatthey're going to pursue higher ed degree, and so that's, okay,there's tons of amazing options out there for those who are wanting topursue higher ed because of a particular type of degree or experiencethat they want. I think it's incredibly valuable. You alluded to it earlier,though, there's over four thousand colleges in America, ranging from verylow tuition and like we have a program here in Missouri, where, if you do acouple of community service- and you got good attendance at your school,your first two years, a community college are paid for and then youtransition into afor your institution. So those are the programs that areobviously very significant for some families, which is awesome, but one ofthe things that I think is really important to note is that ultimately, right now, at leastcurrently in kind of the status of higher ed employers, still rely very,very heavily on degrees from colleges and until that really starts to change,there is automatically going to be value and a degreet from a for yourinstitution. So I know there's a lot of certificate programs and there'sdifferent ways of learning online. But if you think about it, employers theystill do. There is an element ofthaut, where that's an expectation still andthat may not exist forever, but that's the current state and so what they arereally. I think what employers are doing. There is there seeing did thisparticular student: Did they align themselves with a particularinstitution and a major do they have they built some predentials that theybuilt conpedence in this particular field? Have they built problem solvingacumen, and you can do that absolutely in afor your experience and then, ofcourse, are you developing soft skills, interacting living in community withpeople working with multigeneration, with professors and administration andother staff? And, of course, other students? That's an element of yourbuilding. Your Benevolent Yop building, your emotional intelligence, so a foryear, degree in its optimal state is a trust building experience so that whenyou step into an organization and an employer is hiring, you youve createdsome of those trust building acument, and so I think, until that requirementchanges, the value of a four year degree is still going to be very highfor people, especially in certain vets, so like, for example, my daughter. Sheknows she wants to go into medicine, not a lot of choices out there, exceptit goes through four year and then gragraduate school and that for her,but maybe my son. Maybe he wants to go into something different. Maybe hewants to go military or a trade school or hired, and that's totally fine. Atthe end of the day, what we want to do is as parents we want them to be,become better thinkers and better problem. Solwars woman. We want them tobe benevolent in ging to be confident and we want them to make an impactwherever they land and if that is true of four year degree experience. That'sthat's awesome and there's Goine to be value in that it's really good. Niceuse o the framework there and just as a like another Readertiv steplike this, can be applied and used in...

...so many scenarios so useful. We alsoandto. I think that that college requirement is very lumpy right, likemedicine law, yeah, absolutely necessary, but you're starting to seesome. You know software companies, for example. It's more, you don't necessarily need to buildthat that multigenerational interaction and demonstrate the stuff we just needyou to be able to look at the situation, come up with a couple code solutionsand be able to execute them or whatever, and so the distribution there is alittle bit lumpy cory. This has been awesome. I have enjoyed it so muchbefore I let you go. I always do a few things one. I want to give you thechance to thank or mention someone who's had a positive impact on yourlife for career, and this is especially interesting for me to ask you, becauseof the again the dynamic nature of your career, and I like the various phasesand evolutions of it, and- and I can see in hindsight how each step in yourformal professional on paper career makes sense, especially now, havingspent this time with you but think your thinker mentioned sous, had a pesitiveimpact on your life or career and give a mention to a company besides Brooksthat you feel is delivering customer experience in in a really good way. The both of those questions are hard. Icould go on for a while, so I'll try to limit it. I've got to give you twonames. The first is MERL MES and Tim Overbey, who they they were the pastorsin my church, during this disportation work and my mba stuff and thentransition of jobs and so the church that we were attending. They bothshepherded me through that in such tremendous way as they listened, wewerke through, we were consistently meeting, and so they became suchamazing spiritual directors. For me, as well as just strategist, as I wasthinking about my next step, so Marlan Tim and then the co part is, is that Inow work with them. They hired me, and so that's the church that I work at soI am so incredibly blessed to work with with them and everyone else, ob,obviously a PV and then, as relates to some companies that I think are doinggreat work. You know we talked about cur with guts, branding, unbelievablework, around brand strategy and then two local companies here in Kansas Citythat are amazing. One is a young company called they'r younger they'veonly been their existence for a handful of years, but they they the worth thatthey do is like twenty years. It's amazing what they've done and it'scalled intrepid, creative and they produce unbelievable video content,podcast content, they're awesome, so interprid, creative and then th. Thefinal one that I would mention is called Gild content and they work witha lot of organizations, as are relates to ensuring that the content is dynamic.It's building trust with different state holders with the organization andthey're. Also a local company here in Kansas City, there's all sorts of greatcompanies here in Kansas City, and so we're happy to be in Saria, but thoseare just a few shoutouts awesome. Thank you for that Hey. If someone wants togo deeper, if they want to connect with you or some of these just supervaluableideas and frameworks, where would you send people to connect yeah? So thebest way to reach me is through linked en so hop on like tin and just shoow mea direct massage. You know send me a connection. I say yes to people if theywant to connect with me and then send me a direct message, and then we canbegin a conversation, but Linkdan is definitely going to be the best way toreachmenon social, and I love to connect with anyone who wants to talkabout. How do you go trust within a company in our relation nol exchanges,because it's vital and the companies that we interact with that do this?Well, we tend to always go back to them. It's like this jetdi mind trick thatthey have on us, but it really isn't about that. It's really just about.They understand what it means to be compenent, what means to be problemsolvers and what it means to put other people's mews before their own, andthat is trust beautiful. He is corisher. I am eath and Beaut you can connectwith both of us on Linkedin Cory. Thank you. So much for your time. Thank to bea thing. It was really a pleasure. It was aften, be with you today, clearcommunication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of thebenefits of adding video to the messages. Your sending every day, it'seasy to do with just a little guidance to pick up the official book.Rehumanize your business, how personal videos, accelerate sales and improvecustomer experience learn more in order today at Bombamcom Bock, that's Bo, MB,tombcom fuck, thanks for listening to the customer experience. podcastremember the single most important thing you can do today is to create anddeliver a better experience for your customers, continue learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcastplayer, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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