The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

44. The 3 Components of Trust for Better Customer Relationships w/ Cory Scheer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Every time Cory Scheer puts on his Brooks running shoes, he has a great experience. 

He doesn’t get blisters and his feet feel comfortable.

And when it’s time for a new pair of shoes, he turns to Brooks.

So, how do you create experiences like this? Experiences that make your customers want to come back again and again?

On this episode of The Customer Experience podcast, Cory joined us to talk about why building trust is the key to developing a loyal customer base. 

Cory currently serves as Director of Church and Community Engagement at Pleasant Valley Baptist Church. Previously, he’s been the Business Director at a whitewater rafting company in Colorado, VP of Strategic Partnerships at the YMCA of Greater Kansas City, and Dean of Admissions at William Jewell College. 

He also earned an Executive MBA and a Doctorate in Education, completing his doctoral work on the topic of trust, value, and loyalty in relational exchanges.

Check out our podcast on Apple Podcasts/Apple Podcasts, or on Google Podcasts/Google Play, or Spotify and even on Stitcher.

 

Most organizations start with let's increase thevalue proposition. How are we going to do it? You know how wegoing to do this. With with challenge in this particular area. How dowe maintain our value proposition? It really does not start with value, itstarts with trust. The single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketingand customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectationsin a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host, Ethan Butte. Hey, welcome back to the customer experience podcast. Today we're talking trust how to cultivate it within our organizations and with ourcustomers. I think it's one of those things that is easy to talk about, but we might not be talking about the same thing, or it's easyto take for granted and lose sight of the fact of how fundamentally important itis and that it's a skill and a value that we need to be buildingbetween each other. And so you're about to get some practical, evidence basedways to strength and trust through relational exchanges and our guest is super dynamic.He's been the business director at a Whitewater Rafting Company out here in Colorado,where I live. He's been the vice president of strategic partnerships at the Hymcaof Greater Kansas City, he's been the dean of Admission at William Jewel Collegeand presently he's the director of Church and community engagement at pleasant Value Baptist Churchin liberty, Missouri. He earned a bachelor of science and speech, communicationand community recreation and executive MBA and a doctorate in educational leadership and Policy Analysis. And, as a fun fact, last detail here, he's completed twentyeight marathons, including New York, Boston and Chicago three times. Corey Shear, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, Ethan. It's awesometo be on here with you. I really appreciate the just the chance toconnect. Yeah, I think you know the work you've done, in therange of work that you've done. You know obviously trust, being the subjectof your dissertation, and probably a lot. It's beyond that. It's so deeplyentwined, I imagine, in so many of the various roles and situationsyou found yourself in, and so I'm looking to really get into all ofthat in a formal and inform a way and I typically start with asking youto find customer experience, which we will do. But first I want toask you do you have any brand loyalties around running shoes? So I guaranteeyou put on a lot of miles, like probably put as many miles onyour shoes as some people do on their cars. And so what's your runningshoe situation, because I run to not nearly as much as you like.What's your loyalty situation there? I have a fierce brand loyalty to brooks runningshoes and there's one particular model. It's the glycerin running shoe and it's thewidest sorts, the double e, and I have I have run up thoseshoes for probably three or four more years now and I had one blister inall of my races. So before that I was I was running with Nikesand I thought, well, everyone runs with nikes because they're they're everywhere andit look great. But I realized after I was getting blisters nearly every otherlong run, I just had to mix switch and so I got fitted appropriatelyswitched over to brooks and the shoes, the glycerins, are kind of theirhigh end model, so they're a hundred fifty bucks a pop and after fourhundred and fifty miles, got a rotate your shoes. So they're a littlebit more money, but the I'm willing to pay for the noblisters. They'vebeen awesome shoes. How about yourself? I run in the Brooks Ghost,which is kind of like it's also a neutral, lightweight shoe, as isthe glycerin, and it's only, I think, the new models a hundredand thirty bucks. It's like it's like one step down, but same thingas you, I think. I was like, okay, I am kindof serious about this, not as serious as you. So I went toa specialty store. I put on six or eight different brands. It wasdefinitely the right one for me. And just fun fact for everyone listening.Corey came to me through a previous podcast, guess Kurt Bartolache, who talked abouthow to protect your brand. He's a he's he's a brand builder,but even more he's a brand conservation. It's like how do we protect what'sgood about our brands? And so that's a past episode you can listen to. You can check it out at Bombbcom podcast or in your favorite podcast player. But I've also had Rachel Ostrand or on from Brooks running. She's thedirector of runner experience, so I had her on as well. After wehang this up, I'll send you that link and if you're listening, I'llsend that to you, cory, but if to listeners again you can findthat out. Both of those are in the first ten episodes of the show. So definitely go back and fish out some cool sounding brands and people andtopics, because we've been doing these conversations and each one of them has theirown magic to them. I'm super glad I asked that. Brooks has anawesome company. Actually visited them too when I was in Seattle, or we, I mean we had it's like a monument to Brooks. In my closetI have stacks of old running shoes which turn into lonnoing shoes. They arethe most comfortable on going shoes. But...

I love Brooks. I'll be achampion for them for a long time, not a running champion, a brandchampion. Sure, your champion, your champion within your own circle of influencethere. So let's go. Let's go to the formal open like how whenI see customer experience, what kind of thoughts? Are Feelings, are words? Does that conjure for you? Yeah, it's you know, we were talkinga little bit before we came on here and this this whole emotion ofwhen you walk away from Cusford experience, it seems like you walk away withthere's a residue that you walk away with. So you either have a really goodresidue or poor residue or you have no residue at all from that experience. And so the goal is that we want to try to interact with companieswhere we have a really positive residue. And so I think we've probably allbeen in situations where you walk away and something in field right, or youcan you can put your finger on something that was definitely what I would considerkind of violation on a brand violation or a trust violation. Or you alsohave like I have with my brooks running shoes. Every single time I runin those shoes it's a really good experience and I don't have blisters. Ihave good experiences, my feet feel good and there's nothing better than putting ona brand new pair of brooks shoes for me and from my foot, butalso just in regards to the customer experiences that we have had as a familywith for kids. We have a lot of different opportunity to interact with differentcompanies and so I sometimes my radar and my sensitivity to brand or customer experience. Sometimes it can actually be a little bit too sensitive because I'm in thiswork and I think about it quite a bit Kurd actually, and I we'vehad a lot of conversations around this and so, but that residue, wewant that positive residue from our customer experiences that we can continue to build upon, because then we'll come back because we want more of that. Yeah,love it. I like the language you use there. That is new language. I've asked now nearly fifty people that question. I've never gotten the sameanswer twice and typically I'll get some new layer like you've offered here, likenew specific language about residues. Like it adds a tangibility to thinking about it. You know, a lot of people, a lot of us, will talkthrough our thoughts and definitions of customer experience and it doesn't seem as liketangible or visual, like I can see what's left, you know, afterthat exchange. So let's get let's get a little bit into the into thetrust topic, because you have a special level of expertise here. Your dissertationwas titled Trust, Value and loyalty in relational exchanges, and so I thoughtI'd be a fun exercise to maybe walk through each one of those. Solet's break down that title again, the words for the folks that are listening. Trust value, loyalty and relational exchanges. So let's start with trust. Imean, obviously it's a big one, but you know, give me agive me a medium size take on trust, like when you're talking abouttrust, or when people who are doing formal, academic, quantified work,or how trust we're exactly are we talking about? That's that's a huge questionand such an important one for all of us who are in the market place, whether we're a formal leader with with a specific job title, or wehave influence, whatever and whatever level of organ organizational leadership we have. Sohow I think about trust and really what I learned about trust through my doctoralwork at Missoo. There were three authors of an article. Their names areSardeshmuk sable and saying, and they wrote this article called trustfelial loyalty and relationalexchanges. And so what they did was they built this framework, this modelaround measuring value in relational exchanges. And so in their learning they identified threethings trust, value and loyalty, and they wanted to identify was there alinear relationship between the three, or is it just about trust, or justabout value or just about loyalty? And so then what they did is theyoffered some some structural elements of trust and how they identified it. As theysaid, okay, if we were to break trust down into two big bucketsor two big areas, one bucket would be frontline employees and then one bucketwould be policies and procedures. So if you think about the structure or thebones of trust, those are the two buckets that that that kind of liveor comprised trust. So from unemployees and then policies and receiders, and thenwithin each of those there are three primary components that they measured. And sothey did this empirical research in the airline industry and in the retail industry.There was another another author who did doctoral work in higher Ed. He didquantitative work and his last name is Carvolo, and then I did qualitative work andhigher at, using the same theoretical framework. So within frontline employees andpolicies and receiders, the three elements that are critical. So these must allbe accomplished in owner for trust to be B built. The first one isis that there has to be a level...

...of competence. So when you thinkabout a frontline employee or a policy or procedure, it has to be competent, and that's that seems so obvious. But when something is not competent,like a policy or a frontline employee, there's a brand and a trust violationthat occurs. The second thing, outside of competence, is problem solving.So thinking terms of a maybe an employee that you've worked within the past,or a policy and procedure that you've interacted with in your current work or apast work where it has been not a problem solver but actually a problem creator, and the level of stress that that puts on the organization, whether it'sthrough people or policy, and so that is actually a structural element of trustwhere, if there's more problem making them problem solving occurring, then trust isactually going to drop down. And then the final one is really, reallyan interesting one, and then has to do with operational benevolence, meaning doesthat friend unemployee or does that policy put other people's needs before their own?So here's the interesting thing about the structure of trust. If you don't haveall three of those, you'll actually start losing trust and that's challenging because youmight have the most competent individual in your organization, but if they don't haveproblem solving skills or if they're not benevolent, they it's going to be very,very difficult. So if they are a problem solver but they have nobenevolence and no competence, you're going to have issues. And if they arebenevolent, they're a pushover it because they don't have any competence or problem solvingskills. That's going to be difficult. Same thing along the lines with withpolicies. I use the example of the office. So the office is likethis amazing case study of organizational leadership and trust building and trust violation. Soin the office you know Jim, he is like the most benevolent person.He's not a problem solver and he's definitely not very competent and his actual job, but he people love him and he loves everyone except for Dwight. Sohe's what I would call the hardest person to fire in an organization. VeryBenevolent, low confidence, low problem solving. And then you've got Dwight, whowas like the most competent salesperson. He can sell paper to a forestof trees right, but he has no problem solving skills and he's not benevolentat all. And the Abelt Michael, who is the supposed boss of theoffice. He's got none of the three. He has no confidence, no problemsolving and absolutely no benevolence. But the beauty of that show is thatit kind of flips the model and that's why I think it allows people tocome back to watch more, because the person in the office that actually demonstratesall three of those trust elements, benevolence, competence and problem solving, is Pamand she is the person that has technically the least amount of influence withinthe organization. However, she is the primary trust builder in that show.So that's kind of a good way for me to think about when we whenwe think about the structure of trust. And even in my own work,whether it's whether I'm working with people or I am developing a procedure around something, I can ask myself those questions very simply. Okay, is this themost competent approach? Is this the problem solving an approach, and then,in my actually putting other people's knees before my own. So what these authorsdid, because they then took that and they said, okay, if wedo have all of this trust, that will then naturally lead to increase value. So the value proposition naturally rises. Okay, so think about trust asthe water coming into the pond and then value is the boat that's rising becausethere's trust underneath it. And then the loyalty is the experience that people haveas a results of trust. It's being built strong value proposition, and thenthe loyalty, that's the residue that people want. They continue to come backto that. But if you're violating that in any of those three areas,problem solving, competence or benevolence, there's a natural tendency for trust to actuallystart to decline. And so that that mental framework has been so helpful forme because it allows me to compartmentalize the elements of trust, and so that'show I would define each each of those elements. And the most important thingis that trust has to occur before value, and then value. It leads toloyalty. Most organization start with let's increase the value proposition. How arewe going to do it? You know how we going to do this withwith a challenge in this particular area. How do we maintain our value proposition? It really does not start with value, it starts with trust. I wouldguess that price starts to come into play when those pieces are broken,like well, when one of them is missing or one of them is weak. By the way, that was amazing. For those of you who are listening. There's a thirty second back button for a reason. It's either ayou got interrupted or be there is something that was so good or interesting oruseful, such as your office analogy, which resonated very well with me andI'm sure will anyone who watch the show probably saw all of it instead ofjust a couple episodes. So feel free to bounce back and catch back upto to us here. But I'm going...

...to guess that in the absence oftrust to do to any of those, those three elemental failures or absences oreven just weaknesses right strong as the weakest link. Whatever. That price startsto come into plays. You Start Messing with the value prop it's like Iwould is lower the price and see if that will buy our way out ofthe fact that we can't build trust. That's exactly right. I mean,if you think about your greatest customers experience environments that you've been a part of, you've probably been loyal to that customer experience. You've gone back to itor you've had really fond memories and you may have even said yourself, Ican't believe I paid that much for that, but it was amazing, it wasso worth it. And that's where trust is. It's critical and Ithink that it's very natural us, natural for us to think about trust.I think that we do all have trust radars, so to speak, wherewe just go back and feel right. So one example that I use asif you ever have a grumpy southwest airlines employee, that, yeah, yeah, that I can think of. That doesn't feel right when you do.I've had a couple and it's like wow, like they're not going to be withthis company very long and so you know southwest airlines there and so manyof case studies as relates to business, which they're there for a reason.But when you think about southwest are US actual value proposition, they really don'thave that great of a value proposition compared to some of the other airlines.They don't have TV's in the back of their seats. You know the boardingprocess for a lot of people, they don't really like it, they justput up with it. No matter how many times I twenty four hours inadvance of my boarding time, I'm always be thirteen or lower. It's like, how does that absolutely and how does that actually happened? But what SouthwestAirlines is done. They have mastered the element of Building Trust with their friendlineemployees, and then their policies and procedures, the one policy that is so vitalto them. If their bags fly free policy went away. So imaginethey say hey, backspy, prey, backspy pre policy is going to goaway so that we can increase the value proposition for our customers so that theyhave TV's in the back of their seats and they have better food options onour flights. They it would be a revolt. They would have a massexodus because people have come to trust and love that backs fly free policy andif that went away that would be an ultimate trust violation for southwest airlines.It's really interesting. We fly a lot out of Denver. We're in ColoradoSprings, which, for folks that aren't familiar, is like we're about fortyfive minutes south of South Denver and about in ninety minutes from the airport,because here courts way out east and we used to fly frontier a lot.They have a lot of gates in in Denver and there were, you know, TV's in the back of the seats, like like good stander policy. Andthen slowly they change their model to go kind of downmarket toward what Ithink is like a spirit or an allegiant where all of a sudden you haveto pay for your bag check, you have to pay for a bag carryon, you have to pay if you want to pick your seat, youhave to pay more, of course, if you want to pick a goodseat, like all of this kind of craziness. And so, you know, we just stopped flying. Then that's when the company split and now wehave southwest people and United People and you know, some people were still woulddo what they're going to do. But to your point of like we forthe first two years or so when we started doing a lot more trade showsand conferences and expos and things, we were we were very actively flying,paying a brand, I'll make it even more generic, paying a brand fortheir service, paying a company for their service. And then the rules startedto change on us and you don't realize the rules are changing because there areany headlines about it, until the next time you go to book. Youknow, like, to your point, this doesn't feel the same, thisdoesn't look the same, effect this isn't the same. And so that thatyour point, Ethan, what you experience was a trust violation as it relatesto their benevolence towards you, meaning baby, by them not communicating to you,by them not considering what your experience was going to be. Then,in the new way, with a new policy shift, they have actually violatedtrust for you because they're now no longer being benevolent, they're not looking outfor the needs of their customers. With Southwest Airlines, it's amazing how manypeople they book seuthwest without Pruss shopping. They just fly southwest. They totallytrust that the prices are going to be ad or near industry standard. Butthat's a pretty big purchase to not do press shopping on. We don't dothat with other products within our companies or other vendors, but with southwest there'ssuch tremendous friend loyalty. But if you go upstream, beyond the value proposition, it really is more of an element of trust for them and they've masteredit and and so now the challenge is, I think for them they have touphold that and they are known for that. And so because of thatthat provides for them tremendous accountability as a company. So I'm curious, Ethan, as you so you've been with your company now around eight year or so. Can you kind of think of maybe like a season or like a policyor a procedure where you all, as...

...a team, you really thought morein terms of this is a more of a value proposition? How do wemake it more trustworthy? kind of I try to ask that of business leadersbecause I'm I'm fascinated by how they've been able to apply this element of trustwithout them really even putting structure to it. They just do it intuitively. Isthere something that you can your work there? We are like that's somethingthat we move from a value proposition to really more of a focus on buildingtrust. I don't know. I'll offer you the first thing that comes tomind and then you can tell me what I like what I've offered you.We're talking about bomb bomb or software company subscribed by month or by year.We make it really easy to record and send video messages from our web atfrom our mobile APPs, from Gmail, outlook sales force outreaching a bunch ofother instances and in then track all the results. As you allows you toget facetoface with more people more often, because it's better than relying exclusively onplane typed out texts. We're trying to get into relational exchanges as and buildtrust and offer and deliver value in these kinds of things. It were betterfacetoface, and so that's what our whole Mo is. So we've gone backand forth over the years and kind of various iterations of you know, firstit was a thirty day money back guarantee. Then we move to more of abrand promise, which was if you use this and you don't improve yourresults, however you define it, will give you all your money back.So what we did in that iteration was, and we believe this, if yousend ten videos to people, let's just say, to say thank youor hey, how are you? It's been a while, I guarantee you'regoing to get replies and responses that let you know this is a different andbetter way to communicate. And so that that, that was our deals.Like, we know this works, and so instead of just a blanket someonelooking at themselves in the camera and feeling uncomfortable, like that natural vulnerability thatalways occurs, and just bailing right away, we're like, we wanted to createthis situation where, like, trust us, if you use this andyou make it to the other side of this initial little barrier, you're nevergoing to look back, because we've seen it for thousands of people before.You sort of like, if you use it and you don't improve your results, how redefine it? More replies, more responses, more clicks through youremails, higher lead conversion, better ability to stay in touch, more referrals, whatever, you know, whatever you're trying to get done, more appointmentsset and held, whatever, we'll give you all your money back. Butyou got to try. And so we wrote this framework around it and wepublished it and it was like, you know, you have to, youknow, will do personal coaching with you and then you have to I don'tremember what the details are, so I'll make them up here, since it'snot in place. I guess it doesn't matter how exactly accurate I get.You know, if you send five videos within a week's time after we doa oneonone consultation with you and you say Nope, let me go, we'lljust we'll just let you go, a hundred percent refund. And the coolthing was we broke out of that thirty day window to right. So itwasn't just this, you know, thirty days give someone an easy like aneasy out. We don't act so anyway. So we went with that a littlebit it, but it was being sold a little bit differently than itwas being executed on the you know, the sales side and the customer successside. There's a little bit of tension and miscommunication there. The customers hearingone thing when they're, you know, at this point of making a decisionto provide a credit card number, but then as they get into it andthey maybe want to cash it out, they're like, Oh, I actuallyhave to do something. That wasn't my understanding of the promise in the beginning. And so you know it, we've kind of walked away from that andwe're in. We're back to where we started, which is this kind ofcase by case situation where we'll really will really push you a little bit,because we are doing behavior change. This is new behavior. This is anew tool in your tool set. There was a time, well before youand I, Cory, were walking the earth or running the earth, thatpeople didn't sell by telephone. They sold only in person and through letters andmailings. Right like they have telephones on their sales desks. This is essentiallylike a twenty one century telephone showing up on the thing that's going to allowyou to be more effective more often in all these things. So we stillwill challenge you to pick up this new tool and make it go, becausewe know that it works. We've seen it work for thousands and thousands ofpeople and we and we know we can encourage you and we know how hardthis might be for you. So anyway, it's gone through various iterations and nowit's kind of, I honestly don't personally know where it is, becausethe company's big enough that don't know everything anymore. That's a fun era,by the way. There are a couple of years ago I knew everything.Right, it's so anyway, I'll offer it. I'll offer that. Whatdo you what do you take there? Yeah, well, it's really interestinghow you moving just a little bit away from that kind of value proposition ofthat. Here's the thirty day. You know, Thirty Day. Anything.That's a value proposition. That's a value proposition framework, because it's like,okay, thirty days, we've heard it before, we're familiar with the best, very price driven and so but then also you have, as you have, moved away from that. What I love about moving away from that,you still kept the essence of it, where you're challenging people, but you'remaking accustomed to their needs. So what you're doing there? You're naturally that'sa competent approach that's intended to solve their...

...problems with them, but then alsoand you're trying to help them understand the problems that they don't understand that theyhave yet. That's what you're trying to do. But then, third itreally is looking up for their needs because it's custom, because they may notwant to thirty day, they may want attend it, they may want toforty five day. A man, not Emil want to talk about that.So you guys have naturally what that procedure. You have moved towards more of atrust model and all I'll share this with you and to the listeners.Ethan did not ask me to do this. I will just offer this. SoI had not met you yet. Ethan Kurd had introduced us and thenyou sent her an email back to me and you held up my name andthat was on the frame of the of the first email that you sent tome. And then it was the bomb on video. It literally redefined emailfor me in my mind. I've never I've never had something where it's likewith emails, like email, you type your email, you get another email, you generate more email, but that was one of the first times I'veever really had that experience. I've seen bombomb but I've never had someone interactwith me with my name held up. That was so powerful to engage meand I click through and I listened in and it redefined email for me.It became a new way of communicating, and so that was very powerful andthat was a trust building experience for me as I kind of Ben and alsojust to find you're a commitment to say I'm going to write your name down, I'm going to hold it up because I know that you're going to seeit, because I care enough I'm going to spell your name right when Iwrite your name down, I'm going to look to make sure that I'm runningyour name right and then as I interact with that that was just such acool experience. So what you guys are doing, it's all about building trustfor you guys and this really gigantic area of email and you have done agreat job or redefining that space and it sounds like you're doing it through throughtrust. So well done. Yeah, thank you. And in most ofthe use cases are around this, like you know, we're asking for peopleas as people on the business side of the business, not bombomb but anybusiness. Right. We do a ton of business in, you know,large sales organizations, large customer success organizations, all the way down to individual practitioners, whether they're, you know, like Solo Preneurs who are building acoaching business or financial advisors, real estate, mortgage, insurance, automotive typically buys. As a team, we're doing all kinds of different business and allof these people are trying to do the same thing. is so much ofthe initial touch in a customer experience these days is digital. Right, I'mchecking out websites or I'm reading online reviews or whatever the case may be,and now I'm going to engage with the company because I'm not buying a widgetright, I'm not booking an airline ticket, I know how to do that.I'm not buying something where I can just reads rereviews and decide whether tobuy this or the other thing. Or you and I going back to ourrunning shoe. We do need to engage with a real person. I wantto put on multiple pairs of shoes I don't like. I love that Zapposis going to be willing to take my shoes back and pay for the returnif I don't like them, and even let me run in them. ButI don't want to do that four or five times with four or five brands. I want to show up at a store and have a have someone who'sgoing to judge my gate and judge my pronation help fit me in the rightshoe and I can do mote like. So there's some things that are betterdone with people and some things that are that are better done exclusively digital,and so we're working with people that are still doing things where human ads valuereduces complexity, reduces tension, reduces emotion or anxiety or fear, walks youthrough through, you know, detail and nuance and again complexity, and soin a lot of these cases those relationships are starting digital. So how doI know you're more than an email signature? Some people have a preference for dealingpeople, dealing with people that are in the states right like I don'twant to know that my support tickets going, you know, halfway around the worldby someone that doesn't really know who I am because they don't live myexperience and all these other things. So when you just raise your hand andsay hey, I'm a real person, I'm the face that goes with thisname in the email signature, I'm the guy that left you that voice mail. And then this is the super powerful part. I see you, cory, I hear you, cory, incurred about why we should get together andI understand you. I've looked you up online, I would love to haveyou on the show, etcetera, etcetera. And so this ability for me tobe seen and heard and then to also let you know as a fellowhuman being, that I see you and hear you, is like that's that'sit, that's where it's at. It is and you're not, you knowyou're not. You're not generating that on your cell phone while you're walking toyour next meeting, like you are intentionally slowing down, and it's almost likea campfire experience. You know what we're engaging in right now, because Isee you, you see me. We're in our own element. We haveour own stories for sharing stories, maybe more freely because we have the technologyit wish to be able to do that. There's something about sitting on a campfire, whether it's in the bottom of the ringing, in the bottom ofthe Grand Canyon or out in your driveway for Halloween, where something very powerfulabout the camp fire just creates these storytelling...

...opportunities, and so I just Iappreciated that interaction of very powerful for me and I immuniately thought to myself,that is a trust building approach. It really really is. It's not aboutvalue. Its not about efficiency. It does take a little bit more workthere. It does require a little bit more intentionality with that, but youguys, obviously you guys have figured that out. It's awesome. Yeah,thank you. And and once you get basically comfortable with the process, itwill save time because we speak about four times faster than we type. Soand and some things are just easier to describe. And with the screen recordingwhere you can have your little face on there and walk someone through document ora presentation or something like, there's some efficiency plates there anyway. So youdid a great job describing trust, value in loyalty, in their relationship toone another, the elements of trust. Just before we get on and getmaybe into some practical advice that you've seen in working with some of the leadersand organizations you've worked with about how to do trust better in our organizations andour and or with our customers, define that last element, like what areyou what are we getting at with that term? Relational exchanges? Yeah,I think relational exchanges the the original authors of the model. I think whatthey were talking about is anytime that we are interacting with a company, sothat may be in a customer, a true customer service experience, or itcould be a relational exchange where I'm interacting with a branding element or a create, a creative element, because there was that company is developing a relational bridgewith me. So I may not necessarily be connecting person to person because I'mactually interacting with something that a person created so that I might have a deeperexperience with that particular organization. But what the research that they did was primarilywith people to people. My particular research focused on I was I was struckby this reality that in higher at over twenty percent of freshman who come intoa college environment, over twenty percent of them their sophomore year, they leavethat particular college and they will either go to another school or they will dropout. And when you think about the economic impact of twenty percent of yourcustomer base leaving your company after a year, and then when you think about itin terms of how long that sales cycle is in order to acquire thatparticular customer, that student. So my daughter, she's a junior right nowand she has now formally began that sales process. It's a long sale cycleand for a business it's really challenging to have long sales cycle low retention.That's that's tough. That's a very, very tough business model. And sonow that always that kind of bugged me. It rked me because we were workingso hard to get students on campus and I was thinking to myself,why is this occurring? And it's occurring across the country. Most schools haveabout a twenty to twenty four percent attrition rate after their freshman year. Andso what I did was I've used this model and I was really curious aboutfor the students that did stay, these were the students that they have goneat least to their sophomore year, junior year and then senior year. SoI interviewed all four levels of grade and as I did that, I wasasking these questions around your perception of value, because I thought that it was aboutvalue, but I really learned that it was more about trust. Andwhat was fascinating to me was the number one indicator of success for a studentor the number one kind of catalyst the movement to Sophomore Year to junior tosenior year? It was it was not necessarily the institution itself or even thebrand power of that institution. It was actually the frontline employees, which,in the context of higher read, is the professors or the coaches, andso the bond that is created with professors and coaches, it's so powerful forhigh read because they are the people who are literally moving people, those customers, those students, through that customer more experience, which is a long,intense, life changing experience for students. And so without professors, without coaches, it would be impossible for a hired institution to be able to actually getstudents to graduation. So the research that I did really validated that. Andyou think about the number of relational exchanges that a student has with their professors, and that's why higher ed institutions they've got to hire great professors and they'vegot to hire professors who really understand what doesn't mean to build trust with thosestudents. And then, you know, it's why I think a lot ofcolleges have now a faculty advisor model where they got faculty members that are notonly teaching but they're also advising students, and so they're really helping from acompetent standpoints, are helping solve problems and they're doing this on behalf of thestudents. So that was such cool research...

...to be able to find and validateto go. That's the key. The professors are the key in the resourcethat I did as related to the primary trust builders. It's not the fiftymillion dollar student center, and those are great things. It's not the greatfood. That's a good thing. It's not the dorm rooms that have,you know, really nice furniture in it. It. I mean, those areall good things. Those are adding value to the experience, but ultimatelyit's the professors for building the trust. So interesting. It's super, superinteresting because all in that scenario, because that is a you know, ifyou're choosing to physically attend on Camp Empis, you've moved beyond I'm going to watchyoutube videos or some of these, you know, online courses and theseother things paid over free. Regardless. You're intentionally choosing this and it doescome down to that human engagement that makes the difference. That, like,you know, when you're evaluating you're comparing two schools, you're going to lookat like have but this one has, you know, the cafeterias with thatmuch better and more interesting menu. They do Sushi twice a week or whatever. You know and that stuff like adds up and like allows me to checkmy box. But ultimately, when we decide to commit and declare loyalty toourselves in our own heads, through our behavior, or consciously or subconsciously orwhatever, it's about that human relational exchange. It's so interesting. Just fun fact, you just triggered me on bombomb by like by bringing it up.One we have a lot of folks in admissions offices using this to reach outto prospective students and, of course, their parents, because it's a dualsale there. You have to sell everybody on it. And then chapter fiveof the book I co authored with Steve Passonelli, called we humanize your businessabout this process of you's using simple personal videos. The story I tell inthe opening of chapter five is a college professor. He teaches online only forCanesius college and University of Buffalo and he sends videos to the whole class tostart the semester and then throughout the semester as he's giving feedback or answering questionsor whatever he tends to do with videos. And his student ratings were so highthat the tenured that the people on the physical campus asked him to comein and teach the tenured professors how to use video to build these relationships.And so, anyway, it's all right there. Let's go to the otherside with this. Is Been Awesome and I feel like I can keep goingfor like an hour and a half, but I won't ask you to dothat. You know, I was going to ask you to talk about buildingemployee facing trust and or customer facing trust, but I guess I'll go I'll blendthose and see, like in your experience talking with people and doing yourresearch, where do we go wrong on trust, besides maybe taking the wholedynamic in the importance of relational exchanges and leaving positive residue, set all thatto the side, like the taking it for granted piece. What are wewhat are we actively doing to go wrong on trust? Yeah, like whatgets in our way? What are its impediments? It's a great question.You know, simple framework that I'm a I'm a big fan of like herscales, I think like herd skills. They just they dimensionalize it list inmy mind. Oh, I think it's like, okay, it's either aone or five or wires in between, and so one of the things thatI've developed as a tool to help talk about this is a really simple,like her skill. So if, for example, in your own mind,as you think about your own Organization for employees, and and anyone can dothis in with their employees when they think about if they think about a particularemployee and they do three questions. So on a scale of one to five, how competent is this individual? Five being amazing, one being they hada lot of work, or perhaps it's time for them to consider a newnew role somewhere else. Okay. Number two, are they a problem solver? That would be a five, or are they a problem maker? Thatwould be a one. And then number three, how benevolent are they?Are they looking out for the needs of others? That would be a five, or is it just all about them and all they care about is themself? That's a one. In the same way, you can apply that likeor scale model to your policies and procedures, which the other thing about policies andprocedures pricing. That is a policy. It may not be in the employeehandbook but it very much is a policy. And so there are policiesall over organizations that they don't end up in a handbook, but they aredriving an organization. And so one of the things that I find helpful andtalking with people about this, is to say, if you can have thisconversation around the structure of trust before you actually have to evaluate whether or notsomething is trustworthy, what it does is it gives you an objective framework ofdiscussion. So you can you can run your employee conversations or your hiring decisionsthrough the filter of the structure, or you can run this policy decision togo. Okay, hold on, before we get into that, let's makesure that we're evaluating this policy on the three criterion of building trust. Isa competent is a problem solving and is a benevolent and then you can introducethat structure from a leadership standpoint into the...

...conversation and then it's not about mypreference or their preference or their power or their position. I'm just offering amodel and then let's have a conversation around this. An example of that wouldbe situational leadership that was developed by heresy and Blanchard, this amazing view onleadership and how they talk about how we have to lead situationally and with myteam. In my work at the Church that I work out we have createda lexicon and a language around situational leadership. And so what would it look likefor an organization to say hey, before we have any kind of conversations, whether it's emotional or biased or historical or whatever, let's start with theframework of trust and then when we come out on the end of that,we will know that we have been true to our customer by ultimately our desireto build trust with them. And then if you did an evaluation of,let's say a policy and your rating was one, three one, you probablyneed to look at changing the policy to where it becomes a four, three, four, because a one thirty one, meaning it's low competence, it kindof solves problems, maybe it's kind of neutral, but it really isonly looking up the for the needs of our own organization, maybe from anefficiency standpoint. Ultimately, that procedure, if a customers interacting with it,it's going to reduce trust and you don't want that. But if you cancatch that on the front end and say how might we tweak this just alittle bit to where it's actually more competent, more problem solving and more benevolent.The research, the empirical data, shows that it will build trust.That will lead to higher perceived value, regardless of the price. Obviously you'repricing us to be within range, but it will also lead to loyalty.The beauty of the model is it is empiricle, it's proven in multiple industriesand so it works and it's just a really good way to think in termsof from a leadership standpoint. I'm going to set the table with all ofthe key components of the trust conversation. Now let's have a conversation and dyingaround the table. There's nothing worse than stepping into a meeting where there's justthere's no food on the table, there's no sober on the tables, like, what are we doing? Are we just talking here? But as aleader who can set the table appropriately, I think our conversations are going toleave the more trustworthy endeavors with people, as well as our policies, reallygood. I love the intentionality and bringing it to the front of the conversation. Just a point of clarity for me and hopefully on behalf of listeners whomight have wondered the same thing. What does Beth nevolence look like as afive on your scale? Is that like a true win win, where we'reputting, you know, like, because that's a lever right, like isthis? Is this just a straight giveaway? So at one point, just togo back to the thing you offer challenge me with earlier, you know, one point we're just like, if someone wants her money back, wejust giving their money back, no questions asked, doesn't matter when they askfor it. And and that was, you know, the customer has totake some responsibility. They were the ones that said, yes, I wantto do this. I wouldn't take their credit card number. They entered itinto the website right. And so what is their responsibility here? To towork it a little bit and draw some value. And you know, wheredo we take responsibility? So for this benevolence pieces your is you're writing thistension between are we doing this or making this decision or going this way insteadof that way? Are we all about US versus? Maybe the the farother end is just a total giveaway that's actually not even in our own interests. Like what is a five in benevolence look like? Is this like abalanced win win? We're good for us, good for them, or would ittalk a little bit, one layer deeper on benevolence? Yeah, Ithink ultimately it should be a win win. But where I think it's easier justorgan naturally, organizationally, it's easier for us to have a when internallyand kind of well, whatever it is for them, it is. That'swhat it is. And so the the win when, I think, youknow, one recommendation might be talked to your existing customers, your champions,and ask them say, okay, if we were to take pricing out ofyour initial experience as we introduce this to you, what might have been someother ways in which we might have just met your needs better in that process? So, like I would say, let's have it on this conversation withan existing company that knows, they truly do know the value of your product, right, but you've got to trust her relationship to where they can sayhonestly, it really wasn't about the thirty day guarantee or whatever it was.It was actually just about that person that I talked to. They were unbelievableand their office looked really cool behind them and they engaged me. They didn'tbug me with too many conversations like it was a right. I mean Ithink it would be really interesting you guys, maybe you've already done this, butto actually do some data mining on some of your current or existing customersthat are what I would call champions and allow them to start shaping, becausewhat might be really powerful about that is that as you roll something like thatout and a new benevolence strategy, you...

...can say hey, this isn't justcoming from a whiteboard in a boardroom somewhere, this is coming from an existing companies. This is they told us you could have been more benevolent to usif you had done this more and we're learning from that. I mean thatin and of itself that process is benevolent to your future customers. So thatcould be a really interesting way to approach that. Love it. That's agreat tip I have. I've two standard close questions, but before we getthere, because of your experience in Higher Ed and I didn't quite understand howtied to higher ed your doctoral work was, and so I this really makes mean ass is any thoughts on higher education at a high level, speciallywhen you introduced your daughters in the zone here. You've obviously committed to it. Yourself. I feel like the combination of the cost benefit of, let'sjust say an undergraduate degree is obviously under threat because it's been so dramatically outpacinginflation and everything else on any index for you know, the cost of what, you know, the cost of everything is outpaced all of it. Andthen it course it like on the other side there's this kind of like hullhustle culture, you know, if you're if you're true Entrepreneuri like some ofour best entrepreneurs or college dropouts, etc. Talk about your your thoughts of highereducation. What is its value? What is its place in and froman experience standpoint, what's so important about that physical on campus kind of riteof passage for some share of our Americans? Yeah, that's a great question.It's a an honest dialog that we're having with our daughter and our sonwho he's a freshman and so he'll be entering into this and so one ofthe things that we're starting out is at in a point of neutrality. Sothere's a lot of different options post high school. We want to look atthem as equally as we can, even though my wife and I we bothhave, you know, Higher Ed experiences but they don't have to go toa school just because we went to that school and it's not assume that they'regoing to pursue higher ed degree, and so that's okay. There's tons ofamazing options out there for those who are wanting to pursue higher ed because ofa particular type of degree or experience that they want. I think it's incrediblyvaluable. You alluded to it earlier, though. There's over four thousand collegesin America, ranging from very low tuition and like we have a programmer inMissouri where, if you do a couple of community service and you've got goodattendance at your school, your first two years of community college or paid forand then you transition into a four your institution. So those are the programsthat are obviously very significant for some families, which is awesome. But one ofthe things that I think is really important to note is that ultimately,right now, at least currently in kind of the status of Higher Ed,employers still will rely very, very heavily on degrees from colleges and until thatreally starts to change, there's automatically going to be value and a degree fromafore your institution. So I know there's a lot of certificate programs and there'sdifferent ways of learning online, but if you think about it, employers theystill do. There is an element of that where that's an expectation still andthat may not exist forever, but that's the current state. And so whatthey are really I think what employers are doing there is they're seeing did thisparticular student did they align themselves with the particular institution and a major do theyhave they built some credentials? Have they built competence in this particular field?HAVE THEY BUILT PROBLEM SOLVING ACUMEN? And you can do that absolutely in afoyer experience. And then, of course, are you developing soft skills, interacting, living in community with people, working with multigeneration, with professors andadministration and other staff and, of course, other students. That's an element ofyour building your benevolentce. You're building your emotional intelligence. So a fouryear degree in its optimal state is a trust building experience so that when youstep atow and organization and an employers hiring you, you've created some of thosetrust building acumen. And so I think until that requirement changes, the valueof a four year degree is still going to be very high for people,especially in certain agree. So like, for example, my daughter, sheknows she wants to go into medicine. Not a lot of choices out thereexcept to go through four year and then graduate school, and that for her. But maybe my son, maybe he wants to go into something different.Maybe he wants to go military or a trade school or hired, and that'stotally fine at the end of the day. Well, we want to do asparents. We want them to become better thinkers and better problem solvars women. We want them to be benevolent, can be competent and we want themto make an impact wherever they land. And if that is true, afour year degree experiences, that's awesome and there's going to be value on that. It's really good, nice use of the framework there and just as likeanother reader, to step like this can be applied in used in so manyscenarios is so useful. We also into...

I think that that college requirement isvery lumpy, right, like medicine law. Yeah, absolutely necessary, but you'restarting to see some, you know, software companies, for example. It'smore of it. You don't necessarily need to build that. That multigenerationalinteraction and demonstrate this stuff. We just need to be able to look atthe situation, come up with a couple code solutions and be able to executethem or whatever. And so the distribution there is a little bit lumpy.Cordy, this has been awesome. I've enjoyed it so much. Before Ilet you go, I always do a few things. One, I wantto give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impacton your life or career, and this is especially interesting for me to askyou because of the again, the dynamic nature of your career and I likethe various phases and evolutions of it and and and I can see in hindsighthow each step in your formal professional, on paper career makes sense, especiallynow having spent this time with you. But I think your thinker mentions ithas had a positive impact on your life or career, and give a mentionto a company besides Brooks that you feel as delivering customer experience and in areally good way. The for both of those questions are hard. I couldgo on for a while, so I'll try to limit it. I've gotto give you two names. The first is merl meets and Tim Overbe whothey they were the pastors of my Church during this dissertation work and my NBAstuff and then transition of jobs, and so the church that we were attending. They both shepherded me through that in such tremendous way as they listen,we work through. We were consistently meeting and so they became such amazing spiritualdirectors for me as well as just strategists as of US thinking about my nextstep. So Merlin, Tim and then the coal part is is that Inow work with them. They hired me and so that's the church that Iwork out. So I am so incredibly blessed to work with with them andeveryone else. I'll obviously at PV and then as relates to some companies thatI think are doing great work. You know we talked about curt with gutsbranding, unbelievable workaround brand strategy. And then to local companies here in KansasCity that are amazing. One is a young company called they're younger, they'veonly been in existence for a handful of years, but they they the workthat they do is like twenty years. It's amazing what they've done. andis called intrepid creative and they produce unbelievable video content, podcast content. They'reawesome. So intrepid creative and then the the final one that I would mentionis called guild content and they work with a lot of organizations as it relatesto ensuring that the content is dynamic. It's building trust with different stakeholders withinthe organization and they're also a local company here in Kansas City. There's allsorts of great companies here in Kansas City and so we're happy to be inthis area. But those are just a few shoutouts. Awesome. Thank youfor that. Hey, if someone wants to go deeper, if they wantto connect with you or some of these just super valuable ideas in frameworks,where would you send people to connect? Yeah, so the best way toreach me is through Linkedin. So hop on Linkedin and just shoot me adirect message, you know, send me a connection. I say yes topeople if they want to connect with me and then send me a direct messageand then we can begin a conversation. But linkedin is definitely going to bethe best way to reach me on social and I would love to connect withanyone who wants to talk about. How do you build trust within a companyand in our relational exchanges, because it's vital, and the companies that weinteract with that do this well, we tend to always go back to them. It's like this Jedi mind trick that they have on us. But itreally isn't about that. It's really just about they understand what it means tobe competent, what it means to be problem solvers and what it means toput other people's needs before their own, and that is trust. Beautiful.He is corey sheer. I am Ethan Beaut you can connect with both ofus on Linkedin. Corey, thank you so much for your time. Thankyou, mething. It was really a pleasure. It was awesome to bewith you today. Clear Communication, Human Connection, higher conversion, these arejust some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up theofficial book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customerexperience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in yourfavorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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