The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

45. The Modern Buying Process and Product-Led Growth w/ Wes Bush

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We’re all familiar with the traditional sales-led way of acquiring customers:

They demo the product and are passed along to one of your salespeople. And, hopefully, the perceived value of your product matches their actual experience.

What if you just let them experience the value right away? No strings attached.

This product-led model is what Wes Bush sees for the future of selling (and not only for software).

Wes is the author of Product-Led Growth as well as the founder of the Product-Led Summit. He defines customer experience as the point where perceived value and experienced value meet.

Additionally, Wes shares:

  • What product-led growth is compared to a traditional sales-led model
  • Hurdles to look out for when transitioning from sales-led to product-led
  • What marketers should know about customer experience

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I think a lot of people are starting torealize wait a minute like thirty. There is a better way, an fasterway togrow and it takes a while for any company to really recognize that,because there is that nice comforting, proven sale, slad playbook that works,we know it works. We have people in the skill set and W can just make it workfor now. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host, Eefen Beaute, hey today on the customer experience podcast we'regoing to address, what's been a missing pieace in the customer experienceconversation here on the show todate, I think we're an episode. Forty six hereso we're finally getting around is something really important. Weregularly talk with marketing sales and CS executives and practitioners. I'vehosted speakers, authors and consultants who specialize in thingslike branding trust, building and even customer experience directly, but todaywe're. Finally, talking product, especially product at the intersectionof sales and marketing, our guest has years of experience in digitalmarketing and demand Gen, but he spent the past five or six years going deepon product. In particular, he's the founder of the product led institute,he's the author of product, lead growth and he's the host of the product ledsummit he's democratizing the way people are learning about this product,led movement, West Bush. Welcome to the customer experience podcast thanks! Somuch for having me I'm looking forward to the conversation yeah me too, and Iagain I really appreciate we're just warming up a minute ago and I reallyappreciate what you're doing around these concepts of product led. When Iread the book I felt like you were able to rope in what otherwise would havebeen disperate, but super important ideas from people in a variety of seats.So I really appreciate what you're doing and thanks for spending time withus here, I'm going to start where I normally start with the definition ofcustomer experience. But before we do, you spent four years as the aquaticteam leader for Ymca Canada and I'm going to I as just guessing thatsomething you learned in teaching kids to swim and running a team of peoplewho taught kids to swim. What can that teach us about product experience orcustomer experience like? What did you learn, then that you feel like it'smaybe still relevant today? Wow, that's, not a question I've had before. In terms of that whole experience, Ireally do think that teaching is something that is so powerful wheneverit comes to really just simplifying things. I really think if you want tounderstand something, you really need to learn how to teach it, and so Ithink, whenever you're trying to think about cusomer experience like if you'regoing to help someone, you really have to become a great teacher, and so Ithink that's a skill that, although I'v...

...not teaching kids any more swimmingthose ar a long time ago, yeah. It's definitely something that I still tryand hod in on that skill and even with the product by summit, or my bookalways trying to get better at teaching people and simplifying, but everythingdown, so that other people can pick up things easier and become successfulwith whatever whether it's knowledge or skills you're trying to transfer loveit great answer and again that you know you know, you've mastered something andwe're able to teach it well and turn other students andomasters themselves agreat answer, and thanks for going all the way back there with me, I thoughtmight be a little bit fun as an opener. So let's go let's. Let's ask thequestion that I ask everyone who is kind enough to spend time with me herewhen I say customer experience what comes to mind for you so Wheni, I thinkof like a really good customer experience. I think of two things. Sothe first thing is: Whenever I'm looking at a Companier, let's say I'mstarting on the website. I am looking at their perceived value. This iseverything the marketers talk about. This is what they're promising me andthen there's on the other side of that which is once you're on the productwhere you actually get that product F, it's a physical product, there's theexperienced value. So a good customer experience to me is where thatperceived value like what you are hoping you're going to get and thatexperienced value really lines up, and it's just exactly what you expected, ifnot even better. So to me, cosmy experience is those two things. Is Yougot that Seeba experience value and it lines up wit exactly what your expected?I love it and you did a really nice pass in in the book on that topic andespecially about the gap that often exist in what we need to do to closethat for folks who aren't familiar with the term product led. Obviously, it'ssomething you've devoted your life to lately. Giv folks, like especially, incontrast to sales, lead growth. Talk About Product led growth. What is itsdefhinition whorder? It's primary characteristics yeah, so I think toreally understands product Reh gird t almost helps to take a step back andlook at the traditional way of ofsouing products and for a lot of especiallysoftware companies. The very traditional way was you: have this demoprocess in place and you hire reary expensive sales. People to sell yourproducts and the whole goal of these companies is really to take you frompoint a to Pointb in the sales cycle and then eventually become a customerwhereh. Whenever it's a product led company, it's really looking at seeing.How can we show people the value of our product as soon as possible in thewhole buying cycle, and so it does come back to that. First part of biown,belief about what customer experience is is really just. Instead of tellingpeople like hes what Ar Fuck pits. Here's what the pecive value is of whatwe're trying to do in a product led company is actually show people bygiving them the products, whether it's their free child freeming model bymaking them successful and having them experience that Vallue, so that thevalue prop is experienced. It's not...

...something where just telling people,and so the reason why product Li companies are really taking off andgrowing faster than there are sales. Lak counterparts really does come.tobound ot that I mean the best way to show II mean build. Trust is to reallyjust show people like here's. Our products he's having o help. You go seefor yourself, and so I think product lad growth in this whole movement.Isn't anything new we've seen this in so many different categories? I mean,if you go to COSCO or even try on colone at the airport like there is somany instances of free trials o getting I samples of different things whereonce we do try them, we want to see more of it, and so I really think poofthat gows now that it's finally hit the sophwore world, soffer gummes arepassing. You know this. This works. This is a part of the buying CCLE. Wewant to experience the product and see what it's all about. So that's. Whatgets me really excited about product, a girth that also about cusomerexperience, love it the driving factors there right. So it's kind of a go tomarket strategy. What you say, that's true, yeah, absolutely so what do youthink ar some of the driving factors in that shift from the traditional moresales led bottle? To this I mean you already got it some of it, which ispeople want this people want that confidence. It's how we build trust,it's how we in our own minds. You know we get rid of. Maybe some of thatskepticism or re remorse for confusion about is what I've been promising, whatI'm expecting, what I'm actually going to experience, but from a coststandpoint talk a little bit about some of the drivers in this shift from salesled to product led yeah. So that's a really good point to and one of the bigtitle waves that that's happening for any businesses isn't just specific osoftware businesses, but it's the fact that it's become so much easier tostart a business and so taking at face value. That seems like this amazingthing, which it is I mean I benefit from a lot of the same tools andeverything else. It's never been easier to start a business, but at the sametime it's also become a lot harder to grow one, and so now that there's somany competitors for every single type of category and business is becoming alot more expensive to grow, and so customer acquisition caus are actuallybecoming a lot higher. It's actually, according to a reportfive Profoi, wasfifty five percent they've increased in the last five years, and so that showsreally no sense of stopping. So it's becoming a lot more expensive to get customers on board, but alsocustmers are not as willing to pay as much for a lot of the same solutions asther were because if I mean software isn't as novel as it used to be, and soyou have on one hand rising Cusforan rusicion cause. On the other hand,people a're just not willing to pay as much for it, and so that leads you in areally awkward position where you're saying wea the cow. Do we get thesepeople on board because they're not willing to pay as much, and we can'tactually spend as much so either you have just smaller margins or you figureout a smarter way to sell, and so with the traditional sales led way. I meanyou're, hiring insight, sales, tame,...

...often you're, hiring acoun executives,and it's really expensive to make that model work. It's effective, it can work,but it's becoming less and less effective and those margins are gettingsmaller and smaller on those businesses where, with a product of business,whenever you're looking at the numbers. Well, if the free trial or that Freeamodel can actually onboard people and upgrade them on their own- and maybeyou know Wence, they do become suchassful and they do experience theVay pop, then yeah, absolutely sales and everyone else and cus. My uxcesscan breach out and really help those people on, but the majority of the workhas actually been known by the products, and so that's really cool. Whenever youlook at the revenue per user F, some of these companies I mean, like there's atrust there. Forty millionaire are forty people, that's crazy and said itIsnat, that's incredible yeah and the fact they've been able to do that isactually possible because their product helps them do a lot of the heavyliftingon that onboarning front. So I think from he numbers perspective, it'sfascinating to look at that yeah. I think you're exactly righting you're,echoing a couple previous guests on the podcast David cancel from drift. Wespent a lot of time talking about a couple of those key market dynamicsthat you just walk through and and more recently, dantire from hub spot he's asales guy. So for those of you who are listening, if you like that theme, Ihave a couple more conversations on those just visit bombbcom I tunes orSlat spotify Orgoogle to go, find it your favorite player. Where do youthink we are in terms of this shift? Do you think, do you think this is aninevitability and Youre you and the folks you're working with and talkingto and educating in the the movement you're creating? Is this aninevitability? And if so, where are we in this shift from sales led to productletter? We in the very early days and folks that you mentioned like Araps, is:Are they pioneers like? Where are we in this big picture in your? In your view,a so honestly we're really early stage at this point? This movement is ujuststarting, and I think a lot of people are starting to realize. Wait. A minutelike there is a better way and faster way. I T grow and it takes a while forany company to really recognize that, because there is that nice comforting,proven sale, slad playbook that works, we know it works. We have the people inthe skill set and e o can just make it work for now. But if you really want tobuild a long term, business you're going to start having to ask yourselfsome hard questions about. Is this the best go to market SRAGI for us for thenext ten years? What should we do about that? How can we help our customersbecome successful earlier on in the journey, and so I think for a lot ofcompanies. It's at this point where they're starting to ask a lot of thosequestions, which is great, but it's going to take a lot more for people toreally kind of make that shift and change their company and how theyreally do market sell some for customers and there's e whole spectrum.It's not just. Let's put on a free trawl on our website, you got to changeyour marketing, how you do that your...

...whole sales approach and a lot ofdifferent team dynamics have to change to e H. It's funny I feel like it putsa much heavier ask obviously on the product itself. I think for years aspeople were, you know, let's Sa just go back eight or ten years ago. You knowyou build some software, you know you have this sales lead model, and I thinkyou know once you get someone closed committed with a purchase, then youstart to unbundle like some of the shortcomings, and you know like wemaybe new on the sales side, that the perceived experience wasn't going to befully delivered in, and you know for some of the dynamics you mentioned iteven in your previous response. That's not really tolerated anymore. Ourexpectations have moved so far beyond that. I think you're exactly right andI do think there is an inevitability to it as well. You mentioned a playbookand I got to say the product led growth book that you wrote who was very wellsourced and super approachable, insanely practical. I call it apractical guide to it with terms and frameworks examples and how tos and itspans initial strategy, I'm speaking now to the listener matchess to you,I'm sure you know what's in the book and hopefully find this to be a fairand accurate kind of a capture of it. But you know it's bans from initialstrategy and go because this is go to market strategy. All the way throughspecific execution, including pricing, including email and messaging ideas, isjust really really useful. When you committed to write the book- and Iunderstand why you would do it- I did similar in trying to advance thispersonal video movement. I thought a book would just help reach more peopleand it's tangible. It maybe buys you a little bit more credibility when you'retrying to get a stage that you might not have been able to get otherwiseetcetra but specific to the reader. What did you hope like if someone picksup or when someone picks up product led growth? You know what do you hope thatthey take away from it at a high level in terms of a customer experience of abook, buyer and book reader yeah, that's really interesting questionthand, so I think for the bookbuyer. What I didn't want to do like the firstsix chapters, if the book are really just identifying like if Ecaus he iseven a good fit, because I think, with a lot of new innovations, there's a lotof talk and people just like to say: Oh Let'let's jump on this band rightthen,and so I really want to make sure that people are taking an educated step inthe right direction, actually vetting it going through a lot of the questions,but their executive tendency. You know, is this a good fit for the business,and so that's what I really tried to do is if it is good, fit great, read thebest of the book. If it is not, then I hopefully have saved you hundreds,thousands, O dollars or millions dollars by not going down that path. SoI think in that first six chapters, that's really what I my whole goal wasand for those people that are proprodaclad, it's a good fit for theirbusiness when I'm really hoping they're going to walk away with is reallyunderstanding the fundamentals, because that's the the second part of the Bokis really just understanding like what are those main three things that youneed to build a product, ed business,...

...and I think, if you get those right andreally hone in on them, is going to make all the difference for your entirebusiness. And so that's really. My hocal is understanding F, it's a goodfit for you and if it is, how do you take it to the next level so for folkswho it is a good fit for what are some of the Youne? You know you do someactive consulting you're in these companies. Of course, you brought yourown experience, I think whice, which is what motivated you to go down thisrokeuse. You kept seeing the same problems over and over. So I thinkyou're going to have some really good and useful ideas here, we're some ofthe biggest hurdles when an organization accepts and understandsthat this is a good fit for them. What are some of the implications or hurdleslike from a sales standpoant from marketing standpoint, from a CSstandpoint, or even from a product in deadstandpoint wher? Do you seechallenges tand hurdles for companies that identify that this is a good fitfor them yeah? So I think the way you sell really has to change and,depending on how big the business is, that can be absolutely petrifying,because you're used to a certain sales motion in your business and now you're,saying, let's just give our product away for free for a little bettor ifit's a free trial or Freeam, potentially all or part of it, for freeand from a sales perspective. That's scary, because I mean they have thedemigals and all their metrics are set up for this. One side of the business,but then as soon as you introduce that free triut you're going to se YoarCONMERGERI go sky, Rathic, skyrocket and people love it and but then thesalesteams looking at tlike Hong, like our Damos, aren't as much and sothereas. This constant friction between the teams of pro product, let and thensales, let which one should you really take into consideration. So I think forbigger teams, that's one of the biggest problems that any founder or leader inthat team is going to have to really go up against, and so, if you don't haveyour leadership or even your board on board with this new direction, it'sgoing to be really hard to pull it off. If you are an established business,that's why ofthen? If you are earlier on in your journey, it can be so mucheasier for you to really kind of flip. The switch become product led from thatday, one, but in your first few years, once you do get that product market fit.I think it's really really important. This idea that you know in a lot ofcases the people making decisions have only known it. The sales led way, andso this is, I mean, there's just a Sellin on the concept itself, whichthen is you know, we're not tooled and staffd for it, our tool. Kid isdesigned for this function and then, as you said, you know I forget whether yousaid petrifihed or another synonym of it just a minute ago. I can see that towhere it's like, but you know we have twenty five million dollars that areall stacked on this particular approach like we want to stack another twive twentyfive million next year. Are We goingnto only stack twelve in then this thing'sgoing to happen over here like how I can see how it would be veryproblematic and challenging culturally,...

...especially the bigger the organizationis the more decision makers there are in the process and the more wo havewriting on it, an a variety of different circumstances. You wrote inthe book. It wasn't a huge passage, but it was one that was really interestingto me, because I've heard a number of folks on the guests on the on thispodcast talk about it. This idea and it's something that's potentiallycontroversial. I don't see it as such myself, but not all customers arecreated equal and I think your language around it was. You know if the Queen ofEngland shows up at your place, you're not going to treat her the same way asyou treat a buddy who shows up to like watch the game on the television orsomething talk a little bit about the the implications in the context ofthese ideas in this movement. This idea that not all customers are createdequal. How do we need to be aware of that and what are its implications yeah.So, if yeah, that perfect example like if someone does come, who's a perfectfit customer, why are we this pecimen? It comes to your product and how youeven Omhord them from the very beginning. Why are you giving them thesame experience as everyone else, and so that's Oftin, something? I see a lotof companies you? Where is just like this one sice, it's all kind ofimportint and it's a shame because there's some people who are perfect fitand now we're getting Tho Click, the the I'm not a robot button and Ilikfilled all these forms and everything else and its like with Montarn tewels.We can actually tell sometimes before they even fell out that form, ifthey're a good fit and so there's a lot of things we can do from a customerexperience perspective that we can just expedit things for those people andreally make sure that they have the best experiencing, even if we just useeven cipil terms like lead, scoring and figuring out. Okay, like this is aperfef fit Cosmar, let's reach our peactively and earlier, and help themon board them in a new way or a sendement of video earlier on in thejourney. Just show them like a welcome to our product experience. Wer excitedhave you and actually personalize it, and so I think, there's so many greatthings we can do earlier on and that journey to really goes back to thatidefinitnition. The cusper experience like make that experience value just somuch better than the perceive value that you really wow custoers, and thatis really what feeds the word amout marketing an Mat ganame. He it's reallygood and you're exactly right. I mean just thinking about I'm, not I'm notdeep in marketing APPs at here at Bombam, but to your point of before theform gets filled out. I know that we know who's a good fit customer becausewe have software that allows us to know maybe recognize some key domains whenthey're visiting the site, not even necessarily engaging with a form, andwe can run that against a variety of data tools that tell us what their textack looks like and whether or not bombom would plug into it. Well,because the ous sales, for so the use en desk or they use Gmail or they useoutlook and so you're exactly right- and I like this idea that we can not onlycan but should invest more in people who are potentially worth more and fora hardcore dive. On that I had recently...

...the author of the customer, CentricityPlaybook Wun. She brought it was really a financial conversation, but she madethe same arguments at and just going back to. You know the cost pressuresyou talked about in the beginning, cost more to acquire, and yet competition sohigh that you know potentially lifetime values threatened because switchingcoss are so so easy and logs there's so much competition and the priceexpectation is lower. We need to really pay attention to the to the financialaspects of these things so separately. You offered a number of very usefulframeworks in the book, but because this one in particular, when I, when Iread it out, it sounded a heck of a lot ligkt customer experience and brandexperience the way I think about it. You've already touched on it, but Ithink using the UCD framework understand, communicate deliver if youjust walk that out a little bit. I think that'll make your initialresponse on the definition of customer experience, even more tangible forpeople that plan so Le's, be the don't know what the UG framework stands foris really just understanding your cusper and unthroughstanding your valueand communicating that to your customers, then delivering on it. So ifyou're going to build any business, I think it his framer could apply is really I mean I built it for productBot businesses but apply it's to my own and it works. And so the first part isjust really understanding your value and your user, and so that's justnumber one like if you're not really focusing on that specific piece, you'regoing to be creating rock products, you're not going to know what tocomommunicate with them and really how to even ferscize that experience and soone of the the biggest things. I see, people really just not investing enoughand is that first part and that's really the whole foundation of buildinga great business is understanding that value and how you can help peoplebetter, whereas the second part is really how to communicate your value topeople and so how you do that, especially for zoutfor companies,there's mally different ways, there's. Obviously, the text on your websitethere's also your pricing, and so I think, whenever it comes to productlead businesses, it's actually a little trickier, because the value that you'recommunicating is often tye per customer position model. And so what I call itis a range marriage between your pricing and your customer acquisitionmodel, and so how it works is essentially. Let's say you give awayall your features and everything on your product for free, like your custom,aqusition model, it's skyrockets, but Youre pricing and your revenue model.It tanks and Youl go out of business. So you got to find like where's thathappy medium, and so I think, for a lot of businesses. I think a benefit fromhaving a a value mestop with that's using email subscribers, if you're inthe email, kind of space or even per video or something like that's- reallykind of a line. You're pricing, with the value that someone gets from yourproduct so that whenever they do make that decision, if they should go aheadof with that they're only paying for what they're really getting out of theproduct and then the last part is really just making sure that youdeliver on that value. And so that to...

...me is really where I kind of break downthat whole preceede versus experience, vallue and really had to eliminate thevaluy gaps like when people do sign up. They have this expectation and did youneed it in the reality? And so a lot of companies and the reason why producthat compies are taking off is because there's been so many couparies, wherethere's just a massive like a crater of a value Gat, and so the bigger that is,the heart is going to be for you to convert people into happy payingcustomers, and so that's really. The USTD framer get a high level, but Ithink e, The big part there is focus on understand your customer and eliminateyour valley gap so that whatever people are whatever you're communicating topeople aligns with what you're delivering yeah so useful. As as youwere talking about that gap, I was thinking. Okay, probably the bigger thegap when done poorly were often probably pouring people into a CS teamto try to help like you know, you said craters like to try to like fill it upand raise people up like in his heavy manual, lift way when, in fact, a greatproduct experience can do a lot of that for you, you actually use the word thatI wanted to go to next. I feel like one of the themes. Obviously it's usedexplicitly throughout the book, but it's one of those words. It's a littlebit Buzzy, and so I think there are variety of definitions on it. Talk tome about what you think of when you think about personalization. I thinkthat word gets thrown a lot around a lot. I think it's kind of like value orauthenticity. How do you think about personalization and its value and itsimportance in this context? So in this context, the way I really lovepersonizations Yor work best is really based on outcomes. So, if I could signup for your product like Thereis, yes has video, but there's specific use.Cases Am I'me going to use it to send up to prospects. is his going to beused for marketing and so the best persnization? Whenever comes yourproduct really is focused around those coreoutcomes and then what you can dowithin the product? Experience is. If someone clicks on. Let's say I want tosend videos, Tou prospects, you're, accelerating them to that part of theproducts that they actually care about, and you actually will help them createthat first vido to go out to one of their prospects, because that is anamazing customer experience that is helping them do exactly what theysigned up to do and you're just helping them along. So first sizeas for me isreally just making sure that your product it helps people get to thatpoint that they care about a lot bricker. It's great, so you're amarketer who's kind of made. This shift I'd, say product marketing, but it's somuch bigger than that, but as a market WHO's made a transition in thought andfocus on the product experience. What do you wish more marketers understoodabout the product function? Yeah? So I think it's about time. A lot of peoplestart looking at the product as your marketing like the product is yourmarketing and the more or I guess, the sooner. You realize that the more youcan look at that prouct and say: How...

...can you help me gets a marketer there'sa lot of ways your product can help you, and so I did mention a little bitearlier when going through the UCD framerk, like your custmer positionmodel like if you, let's sake, give away some of those fuatures for free.That's that's marketing and it's really helping power that part of yourbusiness to get more people incentibize to actually try your product and see,but some of those features can do to help them in their lives. So I thinkfor any marketer WHO's trying to make that switch. Just start asking yoselfhow the product can help you, because there is going to be a ton of ways thatcan help you it's good. The summit I've been leaning on the book, a lot becauseI read it somewhat recently. I just reread it. As I mentioned before we hitrecord, I always read with a pencil, so I can go back through it and rip outnotes and things. So that's all top of mind for me, but talk a little bitabout the summit. You were kind enough to invite me int to offer some sometraining as part of that you invited people from a wide variety of companiesand even a wide variety of functions within organizations. What were youtrying to do with the summit? What's the state of it? Do you have anotherone come in like talk a little bit about the summit yeah, absolutely so,thanks again for Kis fetting, that was awesome and so for the product ladsummit. The whole goal of it is really just to democratize what product lhadgrowth is all about, so what I'm doing is really reaching out to Sasaoperators who are actually doing the work, who are really great at whatthey're doing and just asking them to share how they're doing it with otherfolks and so that whole model, although it seems very simple, is really takingoff because there's so many people are realizing. You know, there's othercompanies just like them who are building product, that businesses andthose are Han of their their peers and they want to see how they're doing it,and that is the one of the best ways you can really learn is from someonewho might be maybe one or two years ahead of Your Business and you get Tho,really disect and just learn from those people and see how they're doing it,and so with the summit. That's really what I'm hoping to do with it, becauseprobacly growth- they can be this crazy. Looking thing like it's a great way togrow your business, but how- and so that's really what I'm hoping to sharethrough a lot of other experts at the summit and break it down, love it. So,from what you've learned from these people and in your own experience thisgoing to be kind of a medium size, setups Juso stay with me, you have aproduct in a Deav team that are ideally joined at the hip. You have sales andmarketing which re ideally joined at the HIP. You have cs that you hope istied in to marketing into sales pretty closely and that there's goodcommunication around all of them. If a company that's been operatingsomewhat traditionally is trying to reorganize our restructure like arethere new roles that need to be created? Are there new cross, functionalmeetings that need to happen from your experience in learning from all ofthese different people in a bunch of awesome compans? By the way, if youhaven't looked at the summit, someone...

...listening to this episode- I mean Westis rounded up. People from tons of companies, you've heard of, and thenother companies that you maybe haven't, but have accomplished some really coolthing. So through all of that learning. What would you recommend from anorganizational or structural standpoint, or even I a functional standpoint wheresome of the first steps as people are starting to move this way? What is itrequire to get going yeah and so that Proba really dependson kind of what stage you're at? And so, if you are, let's say, just a managerat a big company, you really have to try and get your advantage fen on board,and that would be step win. But if you are, let's say management ends, you areon board and you're, trying to think about how you can make this work inyour business. Well, in that particar case, but I recommend is trying to setup a tiger team so get some people or like at least one person on the markingteam, one person from the sales team, engineering and support and really justsit them down and try and think about how you can improve this whole productexperience and the reason I recommend getting people from a variety ofdifferent backgrounds through the company is because that's exactly whatyou need toats a great customer experience. It is not just you knowthat onboarding or that product team that handles everything is like. No,everyone has that touchpoint with the customers, so you need to make surethat everyone's aligned on why we're doing this and actually able toimplement this, because it's one thing I mean marketers can talk a lotwhenever it comes to you, creating that product experience and actually rollingit out. You do need other people so for that management. If you do want to havethat product Tad Company and roll it out slowly, I rerecomment building atiger team. I really appreciate that you took it there, because thatalignment and the multiple voices into planning, strategizing decision makingand execution is so so important, especially going forward, because weall see the product differently. We all see that customer differently based onour different seats in the house. You know we're a medium size company abouta hundred and fifty different people. So it's still small enough that we canget everyone in one room and try to communicate things. But it's also bigenough that you know even in a healthy culture, it can get really really silodand so breaking that down and getting multiple voices and perspectives in isso important. For me, just out of my own ignorance tiger is tiger andacronym. Is that, like what is captured in the term tighter yeah, so tiers can move quick and fast?Okay, so er Yo go. I think, that's why I guess the Tager Tem, because, like itsometimes it might be called a grosth team or something like that. Yeah and Ifind the more companies I work with, especially even at the scale you'R at alot of the management, definitely relies on a team that can move reallyquickly and they have a breadth of skills and they can really focus on alot of different things, and at least I test and bet these ideas pricker it'sgood. This has been awesome. I really really appreciate what you're doing Ithink in a previous email exchange. We...

...had you mentioned that maybe a dozen ofour team members are subscribed to some of the stuff that you're Putin now andI for Eah Andand. So so we really appreciate what you're up to and- and Ithink, you're a hundred percent looking forward again just thinking about thethemes that that I read that I've experienced n in some of the web, basedin email communication you put out and the other conversations I've heard onthe show- I just there's so many connective themes here, and so I wishyou continued success doing that. But before I let you go, got a few thingsfor you. First, because relationships are our number one core value here onthe show and at Bombam I love to give you the chance to think or mentionsomeone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and give a mentionto a company or more that you feel is really delivering for you a greatexperience as a customer. Okay, so I'll start with the amazing customerexperience. So right now, I'm reading the everything book and T which is allabout Amazon, and so I really like the inside scoop on just how Amazon reallyapproaches their whole customer experience and Sarah. The one thingthat I thought a lot of companies, don't think about that. I love thatthey're Faly siing on is the fact that they're trying to focus on how they cancharge less for everything that they offer, where I think a lot of companiesare always on the other end of that and trying to think about how we can justcharge as much as possible and whenever it comes to rout of at businesses. Isee a lot of them trying to democratize just how to do some of these tools andreally get people on board. Even though I was talking to vc of Hatchar- and Iwas one of the things it was really expensive to create heatmaps earlier on,and so they made sure that people could get this amazing tool at a fair price,and so I really respect a lot of businesses that are prioritizing thatand making sure that they can create an accessible product for the masses andhelp a ton of people get a lot of value. That's a really really interestingdynamic. I think it reminds me of US O. I came up in broadcast televisionrunning marketing teams inside like local TV stations, and I would say forviewership like flat- is the newop if wo could have the same number ofviewers for a given show er a giveen time, as we did the year before. Likewe win it's so interesting, I feel like so much of the dynamic you're talkingabout here. People are trying to hold on to the price point that they have,while there's so much momentum and inertia toward cheap free when thereare a lot of dynamics. T at playin you oridy were were clever enough tointroduce those really on in our conversation here. How about how abouta person who's really affected the way you view the world or the work that youdo or really propp you up at a time that you needed it all right. So thisone goes back to one of the coure values for myself is leave everythingbetter than the way you found it, and so that' is one thing that I've triedto live my whole life by, and I come to my grandpat so powered to him. That'sexcellent! I that stewardship...

...sensibility and approach, whether it'sto your work, whether it's to another person's life, whether it's to at anyaspect of the lives we lead. It's such good wisdom and I hope folks write thatdown or take it to heart. We do need to leave things better than we found them.You left this show better than you found it. I appreciate time so muchpeople want to go deeper on any of the things that we talk about. What are afew ways to catch up with you or some of the events or the book or etceter.How can people follow up on this yeah? Absolutely so, regardless of, if youwant to find out more about the book, what my business is up to or theproduct led summit just head on over to product ledcom awesome easy enough. Didyou it was that a as that domain just available no okaydn, I didn't think so,but you know at the same time it is really really early product ledcomWestbush. Thank you. So much for your time here on the customer experiencepodcast, I appreciate you and I wish you continue success. Thank you so muchclear communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just someof the benefits of adding video to the messages your sending every day. It'seasy to do with just a little guidance to pick up the official book.Rehumonize your business, how personal videos, accelerate sales and improvecustomer experience learn more in order today at Bombamcom fock. That's Bo mb,bomvcom fuck, thanks for listening to the customer experience. podcastremember the single most important thing you can do today is to create anddeliver a better experience for your customers, continue learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcastplayer, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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