The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

45. The Modern Buying Process and Product-Led Growth w/ Wes Bush


We’re all familiar with the traditional sales-led way of acquiring customers:

They demo the product and are passed along to one of your salespeople. And, hopefully, the perceived value of your product matches their actual experience.

What if you just let them experience the value right away? No strings attached.

This product-led model is what Wes Bush sees for the future of selling (and not only for software).

Wes is the author of Product-Led Growth as well as the founder of the Product-Led Summit. He defines customer experience as the point where perceived value and experienced value meet.

Additionally, Wes shares:

  • What product-led growth is compared to a traditional sales-led model
  • Hurdles to look out for when transitioning from sales-led to product-led
  • What marketers should know about customer experience

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I think a lot of people arestarting to realize, wait a minute, like there, there is a betterway, of faster way to grow, and it takes a while for anycompany to really recognize that because there is that Nice, comforting, proven salesled playbook that works. We know it works, we have people on theskill set and we can just make it work. For now, the singlemost important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experiencefor your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte Hey. Today on the customer experience podcast we're going to address what's been a missingpiece in the customer experience conversation here on the show to date. I thinkword episode forty six here, so we're finally getting around to something really important. We regularly talk with marketing, sales and C executives and practitioners. I'vehosted speakers, authors and consultants who specialize in things like branding, trust buildingand even customer experience directly. But today we're finally talking product, especially productat the intersection of sales and marketing. Our guest has years of experience anddigital marketing in demand Jen, but he spent the past five or six yearsgoing D on product in particular. He's the founder of the product led institute, he's the author of product led growth and he's the host of the productled summit. He's democratizing the way people are learning about this product led movement. Westbush, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thanks so much for havingme. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, me too, and Iagain I really appreciate we're just warming up a minute ago and I reallyappreciate what you're doing around these concepts of product led. When I read thebook I felt like you were able to rope in what otherwise would have beendisparate but super important ideas from people in a variety of seats. So Ireally appreciate what you're doing and thanks for spending time with us here. I'mgoing to start where I normally start, with the definition of customer experience.But before we do, you spent four years as the Aquatic Team Leader forwhy MCA Canada and I'm going to. I'm just guessing that something you learnedand teaching kids to swim and running a team of people who taught kids toswim. What can that teach us about product experience or customer experience? Like, what did you learn then that you feel like it's maybe still relevant today? Wow, that's not a question I've had before. In terms of thatwhole experience, I really do think that teaching is something that is so powerfulwhenever it comes to really just simplifying things. I really think if you want tounderstand something, you really need to learn how to teach it, andso I think whenever you're trying to think about a customer experience, like ifyou're going to help someone, you really have to become a great teacher.And so I think that's a skill that,...

...although I've kind of teaching kids anymore, swimming was a long time ago. Yeah, it's definitely something that Istill try and hone in on that skill and even with the product,that summit or my book, always trying to get better at teaching people insimplifying but everything down so that other people can pick up things easier and becomesuccessful with whatever, whether it's knowledge or skills you're trying to transfer. Loveit. Great answer and again that you know. You know you've mastered somethingand we're able to teach it well and turn other students into masters themselves.A great answer and thanks for going all the way back there with me.I thought might be a little bit fun as an opener. So let's go. Let's let's ask the question that I ask everyone who is kind enough tospend time with me here when I say customer experience, what comes to mindfor you? So when I think of like a really good customer experience,I think of two things. So the first thing is, whenever I'm lookingat a company Ra let's say I'm starting on the website, I am lookingat their perceived value. This is everything the marketers talk about, this iswhat they're promising me. And then there's on the other side of that,which is once you're on the product or you actually get that product, that'sa physical product, there's the experienced value. So a good customer experience to meis where that perceived value, like what you're hoping you're going to getin that experience value, really lines up and it's just exactly what you expected, if not even better. So to me, customer experience is those twothings. Is You got to see about experience value, and that lines upwith exactly what you expected. I love it and you did a really nicepass in in the book on that topic and especially about the gap that oftenexists in what we need to do to close that. For folks who aren'tfamiliar with the term product led, obviously it's something you've devoted your life tolately. Get folks like, especially in contrast to sales led growth, talkabout product led growth. What is its definition? What are its primary characteristics? Yeah, so I think the really understands product right grow. That almosthelps to take a step back and look at the traditional way of selling products, and for a lot of especially software companies, the very traditional way wasyou have this demo process and place and you hire ray expensive sales people tosell your product, and the whole goal of these companies is really to takeyou from point a to point B in the sale cycle and then eventually becomea customer, whereas whenever it's a product led company it's really looking at seeinghow can we show people the value of our product as soon as possible?In the whole buying cycle, and so it does come back to that.First part of my own belief about what customer experience is is really just insteadof telling people like here's what our proct is, here's what the perceived valueis, what we're trying to do in a product that company is actually showpeople by giving them the products, whether it's their free child Freeman model,by making them successful and having them experience that value, so that the valueprop is experience. It's not something we're...

...just telling people. And so thereason why product that companies are really taking off and growing faster than their salesthat counterparts, really does come to down that. That, I mean thebest way to show, I mean build trust is to really just show peoplelike here's our product, here's how we help you go see for yourself,and so I think product led growth in this whole movement isn't anything new.We've seen this in so many different categories. I mean if you go to costcoor even try on Cologne at the airport, like there is so manyinstances of free trials or getting his samples of different things where, once wedo try them, we want to see more of it. And so Ireally think product that grows. Now that it's finally hit the software world,software cominges are has an you know this, this works. This is a partof the buying cycle. We want to experience the product and see whatit's all about. So that's what gets me really excited about product that growth, also about customer experience. Love it. The driving factors. They're right.So it's kind of a go to market strategy. What do you say? That's true. Yeah, absolutely. So what do you think are someof the driving factors in that shift from the traditional more sales led bottle tothis? I mean, already got it some of it, which is peoplewant this, people want that confidence. It's how we build trust. It'show we in our own minds, you know, we get rid of maybesome of that skepticism. Will remote remorse for confusion about is what I've beenpromised and what I'm expecting, what I'm actually going to experience. But froma cost standpoint, talk a little bit about some of the drivers in thisshift from sales led to product led. Yeah, so that's a really goodpoint too, and one of the big tidal waves that's that's happening for anybusiness. This isn't a specific to software businesses, but it's the fact thatit's become so much easier to start a business and so, taken at facevalue, that seems like this amazing thing, which it is. I mean,I've benefit from a lot of the same tools and everything else. It'snever been easier to start a business, but at the same time it's alsobecome a lot harder to grow one. And so now that there's so manycompetitors for every single type of category and business is becoming a lot more expensiveto grow. And so customer acquisition cause are actually becoming a lot higher.It's actually a according to a report by profit I was fifty five percent.They've increased in the last five years and so that shows really no signs ofstopping. So it's becoming a lot more expensive to get customers on board.But also customers are not as willing to pay as much for a lot ofthe same solutions as they were because, I mean, software is in thisnovel as it used to be, and so you have, on one hand, rising customer position cost on the other hand, people are just not willingto pay us much for it, and so that leaves you in a reallyawkward position where you're saying, well, we how do we get these peopleon board? Because they're not willing to pay as much and we can't actuallyspend as much. So either you have just smaller margins or you figure outa smarter way to sell. And so with the traditional sales ledway, Imean you're hiring inside sales team, often...'re hiring account executives and it's reallyexpensive to make that model work. It's effective, it can work, butit's becoming less and less effective in those margins are getting smaller and smaller.On those businesses where with a product a business, whenever you're looking at thenumbers, well, if that free trial or the freemium model can actually onboard people and upgrade them on their own and maybe you know whence they dobecome successful and they do experience the value prop then yeah, absolutely, salesand everyone else, because miccess can reach out and really help those people on. But the majority of the work has actually been known by the product andso that's really cool. Whenever you look at the revenue per user of someof these companies, I mean like there's a trusts there. Forty million.Are Are Forty people. That's crazy and studies and that's incredible. Yeah,and the fact that they've been able to do that is actually possible because theirproduct helps them do a lot of the heavy lifting on that on boarding front. So I think from a numbers perspective it's fascinating to look at that.Yeah, I think you're exactly right and you're echoing a couple previous guests onthe podcast. David cancel from drift. We spend a lot of time talkingabout a couple of those key market dynamics that you just walk through, andand more recently Dan tire from hub spot. He's a sales guy. So forthose of you who are listening, if you like that theme, Ihave a couple more conversations on those. Just visit bombbcom itunes or spotify orGoogle to go find it your favorite player. Where do you think we are interms of this shift? Do you think? Do you think this isan inevitability, and your you and the folks you're working with and talking toand educating in the movement you're creating, is this an inevitability and if so, where are we in this shift from sales led to product letter? Wein the very, very early days and folks that you mentioned, like arefts is. Are they pioneers? Like, where are we in this big picturein your in your view? So honestly, we're really early stage atthis point. This movement is just starting and I think a lot of peopleare starting to realize, wait a minute, like there is a better way andfaster way to grow, and it takes a while for any company toreally recognize that because there is that Nice, comforting, proven sales led playbook thatworks. We know it works, we have people in the skill setand we can just make it work for now. But if you really wantto build a long term business, you're going to start having to ask yourselfsome hard questions about is this the best go to market CHATU for us forthe next ten years? What should we do about that? How can wehelp our customers become successful earlier on in the journey? And so I thinkfor a lot of companies it's at this point where they're starting to ask alot of those questions, which is great, but it's going to take a lotmore for people to really kind of make that shift and change their companyand how they really do market, sell, support customers. And there's a wholespectrum. It's not just let's put on a free trial on our website. You got to change your marketing. How you do that, your wholesales approach and a lot of different teams...

...dynamics have to change to yeah,it's funny. I feel like it puts a much heavier ask, obviously onthe product itself. I think for years as people were you know, eat. Let's say just go back eight or ten years ago. You know,you build some software, you know you have the sales led model and Ithink you know once you get someone closed committed with a purchase, then youstart to unbundle, like some of the shortcomings and you know, like wemaybe new on the sales side, that the perceived experience wasn't going to befully delivered in and you know, for some of the dynamics you mentioned ineven in your previous response, that's not really tolerated anymore. Our expectations ofmove so far beyond that. I think you're exactly right and I do thinkthere is an inevitability to it as well. You mentioned a playbook and I gotto say the product led growth book that you wrote was very well sourcedand super approachable insanely practical. I call it a practical guide to it,with terms and frameworks, examples and how to's, and it spans initial strategy. I'm speaking now to the listener, not just to you. I'm sureyou know what's in the book and hopefully you find this to be a fairand accurate kind of a capture of it. But you know it's bands from initialstrategy and go to because this is go to market strategy all the waythrough specific execution, including pricing, including email and messaging ideas. Is justreally, really useful. When you committed to write the book and I understandwhy you would do it. I did similar in trying to advance this personalvideo movement. I thought a book would just help reach more people and it'stangible. It maybe buys you a little bit more credibility when you're trying toget a stage that you might not have been able to get otherwise, etcetera. But specific to the reader, what did you hope like if someone picksup or when someone picks up product led growth, you know, what doyou hope that they take away from it at a high level in terms ofa customer experience of a book buyer and book reader. Yeah, that's reallyinteresting question, and so I think for the book buyer, what I didn'twant to do, like the first six chapters if the book are really justidentifying, like if the's is even a good fit, because I think witha lot of new innovations there's a lot of talk and people just like tosay, Oh, let's jump on this band right there, and so Ireally want to make sure that people are taking an educated step in the rightdirection, actually vetting it, going through a lot of the questions but theirexecutive team to see, you know, is this a good fit for thebusiness? And so that's what I really tried to do is if it isa good fit, great, you the best of the book. If itis not, then I hopefully have saved you hundreds of thousand smallar as aremillions dollars by not going down that path. So I think in that first sixchapters that's really what I'm my whole goal was. And for those peoplethat are pro product that it's a good fit for their business, what I'mreally hoping they're going to walk away with is really understanding the fundamentals, becausethat's the the second part of the book he's really just understanding, like whatare those main three things that you need... build a product, that business? And I think if you get those right and really hone in on them, is going to make all the difference for your entire business. And sothat's really my whole goal is understanding it's a good fit for you and ifit is, how do you take it to the next level? So,for folks who it is a good fit for, what are some of thatyou you know you do some active consulting. You're in these companies. Of courseyou brought your own experience, I think, which is what motivated youto go down this rogues you kept seeing the same problems over and over.So I think you're going to have some really good, in useful ideas here. Where are some of the biggest hurtles when an organization accepts and understands thatthis is a good fit for them? What are some of the implications orhurtles, like from a sales standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, from aCS standpoint or even from a product in Dev standpoint? Where do you seechallenges and hurtles for companies that identify that this is a good fit for them? Yeah, so I think the way you sell really has to change and, depending on how big the business is, that can be absolutely petrifying because you'reused to a certain sales motion in your business and now you're saying,let's just give our product away for free, for a little bit or, ifit's a free trial or free him, potentially all or part of it forfree. And from a sales perspective that's scary because I mean they havethe demo goals and all their metrics are set up for this one side ofthe business, but then as soon as you introduce that free trial, you'regoing to see a conversion right go sky Rothing, skyrocket and people love it. And but then the sales teams, looking at that, come like ourdemos aren't as much and so there's this constant friction between the teams of proproduct let and then sales let. Which one should you really take into consideration? So I think for bigger teams that's one of the biggest problems. That'sany founder or a leader in that team is going to have to really goup against. And so if you don't have your leadership or even your boardon board with this new direction, it's going to be really hard to pullit off if you are an established business. That's why often, if you areearlier on in your journey, it can be so much easier for youto really kind of flip the switch become product let from that day one,but in your first few years. Once you do, you get that productmarket flot. Okay, I think it's really really important this idea that,you know, in a lot of cases the people making decisions have only knownit the sales led way, and so this is I mean there's just asell in on the concept itself, which then is, you know, we'renot tooled in staff for it. Our tool kid is designed for this function. And then, as you said, you know, I forget where theysaid petrified or another synonym of it just a minute ago. I can seethat too, where it's like, but you know, we have twenty fivemillion dollars that are all stacked on this particular approach like and we want tostack another try for twenty five million next year. Are we going to onlystack twelve in then this thing's going to happen over here, like how Ican see how it would be very problematic...

...and challenging culturally, especially the biggerthe organization is, the more decision makers there are in the process and themore you have writing on it in a variety of different circumstances. You wrotein the book. It wasn't a huge passage, but it was one thatwas really interesting to me because I've heard a number of folks on the guestson the on this podcast talk about at this idea and it's something that's potentiallycontroversial. I don't see it as such myself, but not all customers arecreated equal. That I think your language around it was. You know,if the Queen of England shows up at your place, you're not going totreat her the same way as you treat a buddy who shows up to like, watch the game on the television or something. Talk a little bit aboutthe the implications in the context of these ideas, in this movement, thisidea that not all customers are created equal. How do we need to be awareof that and what are its implications? Yes, so if, yeah,that perfect example, if someone does come who's a perfect fit customer,why are we espish when it comes to through your product and how you evenon board them from the very beginning? Why are you giving them the sameexperience as everyone else. And so, as often something I see a lotof companies here where it's just like this one size fits all kind of onboarding, and it's a shame because there's some people who are perfect fit. Andnow we're getting the Click, the the I'm not a robot, butts inand filled all these forms and everything else, and is like, with modern tools, we can actually tell, sometimes before they even fell at that form, if they're a good fit. And so there's a lot of things wecan do from a customer experience perspective that we can just expedite things for thosepeople and really make sure that they have the best experiencing. Even it ifwe just use even simple terms like lead scoring and figuring out, okay,like this is a perfect customer. Let's reach out proactively and earlier and helpthem on board them in a new way or send them a video earlier onin the journey just show them like a welcome to our product experience. We'reexcited to have you actually personalize it, and so I think there's so manygreat things we can do earlier on and that journey to really goes back tothat definition the customer experience. Like make that experience value just so much betterthan the perceived value that you really wow customers and that is really what feedsthe word about marketing, in my opinion. Yeah, it's really good. Inyour exactly right. I mean, just thinking about I'm not I'm notdeep in marketing APPs at here at Bombomb, but to your point of before theform gets filled out, I know that we know who's a good fitcustomer because we have software that allows us to know, maybe recognize some keydomains when they're visiting the site, not even necessarily engaging with a form,and we can run that against a variety of data tools that tell us whattheir text act looks like and whether or not bombomb would plug into it.Well, because they use sales for so they use en desk or they useGmail or they use outlook, and so you're exactly right and I like thisidea that we can, not only can, but should invest more and people whoare potentially worth more and for hardcore dive on that. I had recentlythe author of the customer centricity playbook and...

...she brought it was really a financialconversation, but she made the same arguments at it and just going back toyou know, the cost pressures you talked about in the beginning. Costs moreto acquire and yet competitions so high that you know, potentially lifetime values threatenedbecause switching costs are so so easy and looks there's so much competition and theprice expectation is lower. We need to really pay attention to the to thefinancial aspects of these things so separately. You offered a number of very usefulframeworks in the book, but because this one in particular, when I whenI read it out, it sounded a heck of a lot like customer experienceand brand experienced. The Way I think about it, and you've already touchedon it, but I think using the UCD framework, understand, communicate,deliver. If you just walk that out a little bit, I think that'llmake your initial response on the definition of customer experience even more tangible for people. That's fans. So those of you that don't know what the UCD frameworkstands for, is really just understanding your customer and understanding your value and communicatingthat to your customers and then delivering on it. So if you're going tobuild any business, I think is framework could apply. Is Really I mean, I built it for product that businesses, but I apply it to my ownand it works. And so the first part is just really understanding yourvalue and your user and so that's just number one. Like, if you'renot really focusing on that specific piece, you're going to be creating wrong products, you're not going to know what to communicate with them and really how toeven personize that experience. And so one of the the biggest things I seepeople really just not investing enough and is that first part, and that's reallythe whole foundation of building a great business, is understanding that value and how youcan help people better, whereas the second part is really how to communicateyour value to people. And so how you do that, especially for asover companies, there's many different ways. There's obviously the text on your websites, there's also your pricing, and so I think whenever it comes to productled businesses, it's actually a little trickier because the value that you're communicating isoften tied to your customer position model, and so what I call it isa arranged marriage between your pricing and your customer acquisition model. And so howit works is essentially, let's say you give away all your features and everythingon your product for free. Like your customer acquisition model it's sky rockets,but you're pricing and your revenue model it tanks and you go out of business. So you got to find like where's that happy medium? And so Ithink for a lot of businesses, I think of benefit from having a valuemetrip. What that's using email subscribers, if you're in the email kind ofspace, or even per video or something like that's really kind of a line. You're pricing with the value that someone gets from your product so that wheneverthey do make that decision, if they should go ahead of it, they'reonly paying for what they're really getting out of the product. And then thelast part is really just making sure that you deliver on that value. Andso that, to me, is really...

...where I kind of break down thatwhole proceed versus experience value and really had to eliminate the value gap. Likewhen people do sign up, they have this expectation and did you meet itin the reality? And so a lot of companies in the reason why productthat comes are taking off is because there's been so many companies where there's justa massive like a crater of a value gap, and so the bigger thatis, the heart it is going to be for you to convert people intohappy paying customers, and so that's really the the UCD frame, or geta high level, but I think the the big part there is focus onunderstanding your customer and eliminate your value gaps so that whatever people are, whateveryou're communicating people, aligns with what you're delivering. Yeah, so useful asas you were talking about that gap as thinking, okay, probably the biggerthe gap, when done poorly, we're off and probably pouring people into aCS team to try to help. Like you know, you said, creatorslike to try to like fill it up and raise people up like it isheavy manual liftway, when in fact a great product experience can do a lotof that for you. You usually use the word that I wanted to goto next, I feel like one of the themes. Obviously it's used explicitlythroughout the book, but it's one of those words. It's a little bitbuzzy and so I think there are variety definitions on it. Talk to meabout what you think of when you think about personalization. I think that wordgets thrown a lot around, a lot. I think it's kind of like valueor authenticity. How do you think about personalization and its value and itsimportance in this context? So in this context, the way I really lovepersonization and see our work best is really based on outcomes. So if Ico sign up for your product, like there's yes, it as video,but there's specific use cases. Am I going to use it? To SendIT TO PROSPECTS? Is this going to be used for marketing? And sothe best personization, whenever comes your product, really is focused around those core outcomes. And then what you can do within the product experience is if someoneclicks on, let's say I want to send videos for prospects, you're acceleratingthem to that part of the products that they actually care about and you actuallywill help them create that first video to go to one of their prospects,because that is an amazing customer experience. That is helping them do exactly whatthey signed up to do and you're just helping them along. So personization forme is really just making sure that your products, it helps people get tothat point that they care about a lot quicker. It's great. So you'rea marketer who's kind of made this shift. I'd say product marketing, but it'sso much bigger than that. But as a market WHO's made a transitionin thought, in focus on the product experience, what do you wish moremarketers understood about the product function? Yeah, so I think it's about time alot of people start looking at the product as your marketing, like theproduct is your marketing, and the more or I guess, the sooner yourealize that, the more you can look at that product and say, howcan you help me? Because a marketer,...

...there's a lot of ways your productcan help you. And so I did mention a little bit earlier whengrowing to the UCD framework, like your customer position model, like if you, let's say, give away some of those features for free, that's that'smarketing and it's really helping power that part of your business to get more peopleincentivized to actually try out your product and see what some of those features cando to help them in their lives. So I think for any marketer WHO'strying to make that switch, just start asking you is out, how thatproduct can help you, because there is going to be a ton of waysthat can help you. It's good. The summit. I've been leaning onthe book a lot because I read it somewhat recently. I just reread it. As I mentioned before we hit record. I always read with a pencil soI can go back through it and rip out notes and things. So'sthat's all up of mind for me. But talk a little bit about thesummit. You were kind enough to invite me into it to offer some sometraining. As part of that, you invited people from a wide variety ofcompanies and even a wide variety of functions within organizations. What we trying todo with the summit? What's the state of it? You have another onecome in like talk a little bit about summit. Yeah, absolutely so,thanks again from chest getting. That was awesome. And so for the productled summit, the whole goal of it is really just to democratize what productled growth is all about. So what I'm doing is really reaching out toSass operators who are actually doing the work, who are really great at what they'redoing, and just asking them to share how they're doing it with otherfolks. And so that whole model, although it seems very simple, isreally taking off because there's so many people are realizing you know, there's othercompanies just like them who are building product that businesses and those are kind oftheir their peers and they want to see how they're doing it. And thatis the one of the best ways you can really learn is from someone whomight be maybe one or two years ahead of your business and you get toreally dissect and just learn from those people and see how they're doing it.And so with the summit that's really what I'm hoping to do with it,because product led growth. They can be this crazy looking thing like it's greatway to grow Your Business, but how? And so that's really what I'm hopingto share through a lot of other experts at the summit and break itdown love it. So, from what you've learned from these people and inyour own experience, this is going to be kind of a medium size setupsto so stay with me. You have a product in a Dev team thatare ideally joined at the hip. You have sales and marketing, which ideallyjoined at the hip. You have CS. The you hope is is tied intomarketing into sales pretty closely and that there's good communication around all of them. If a company that's been operating somewhat traditionally, is trying to reorganize orrestructure, like are their new roles that need to be created? Are Theirnew cross functional meetings that need to happen? From your experience and learning from allof these different people in a bunch of awesome companies, by the way, if you haven't looked at the summit,...

...someone listening to this episode, Imean West is rounded up people from tons of companies you've heard of andthen other companies that you maybe haven't but if accomplished some really cool thing.So, through all of that learning, what would you recommend from an organizationalor structural standpoint, or even a functional standpoint? Where are some of thefirst steps as people are starting to move this way? What is it requireto get going? Yeah, and so that part really depends on kind ofwhat stage you're at. And so if you are, let's say just amanager at a big company, you really have to try and get your admanagement on board and that would be step one. But if you are let'ssay management and you are on board and you're trying to think about how youcan make this work in your business, well in that pretticular case, butI recommends is trying to set up a tiger team. So get some people, or like at least one person for the marketing team, one person fromthe sales team, engineering and support, and really just set them down andtry and think about how you can improve this whole product experience. And thereason I recommend getting people from a variety of different backgrounds throughout the company isbecause that's exactly what you need to be its a great customer experience. Itis not just you know that on boarding or that product team that handles everythingis like. No, everyone has that touch point with the customers. Soyou need to make sure that everyone's aligns on why we're doing this and actuallyable to implement this, because it's one thing. I mean, markers cantalk a lot, whenever it comes to you creating that product experience and actuallyrolling it out, you do need other people. So for that management,if you do want to have that product, that a company and roll it outslowly, I would recommend building a tiger team. I really appreciate thatyou took it there, because that alignment in the multiple voices into planning,strategizing, decisionmaking and execution is so, so important, especially going forward.Because we all see the product differently, we all see the customer differently basedon our different seats in the house. You know, we're a medium sizedcompany, about a hundred and fifty different people. So it's still small enoughthat we can get everyone in one room and try to communicate eight things,but it's also big enough that, you know, even in a healthy cultureit can get really, really silod and so breaking that down and getting multiplevoices and perspectives and is so important for me, just out of my ownignorance. Tiger is tiger and acronym. Is that like what is captured inthe term tiger? Yeah, so tigers can move quick and fast. Okay, so very God. I think that's why it gets the Tigers. Yeah, because, like sometimes it might be called a growth team or something likethat. Yeah, and I find the more companies our work with, especiallyeven at the scale you're at, a lot of the management definitely relies ona team that can move really quickly and they have breadth of skills and theycan really focus on a lot of different things and at least chest and thatthese ideas pricker. It's good. This has been awesome. I really reallyappreciate what you're doing. I think in a previous email exchange we had,you mentioned that maybe a dozen of our... members are subscribed to some ofthe stuff that you're putting out. I'd more yeah, and and so.So we really appreciate what you're up to and and I think you're a hundredpercent looking forward again, just thinking about the themes that I that I read, that I've experienced in in some of the web based in email communication youput out and the other conversations I've heard on the show. I just there'sso many connective themes here and so I wish you continued success doing that.But before I let you go, I've got a few things for you.First, because relationships are our number one core value here on the show andat bomb them, I love to give you the chance to think or mentionsomeone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and give a mentionto a company or more that you feel is really delivering for you a greatexperience as a customer. Okay, so I'll start with the amazing customer experience. So right now I'm reading the everything book and which is all about Amazon, and so I really like the inside scoop on just how Amazon really approachestheir whole customer experience and Sarah, the one thing that I thought a lotof companies don't think about that I love that they're focusing on is the factthat they're trying to focus on how they can charge to less for everything thatthey offer, where I think a lot of companies are always on the otherend of that and trying to think about how we can just charge as muchas possible. And whenever it comes to product a businesses, I see alot of them trying to democratize just how to do some of these tools andreally get people on board. Even though I was talking to vco of hotjar and I was one of the things it was really expensive to create heatmaps earlier on, and so they made sure that people could get this amazingtool at a fair price, and so I really respect a lot of businessesthat are prioritizing that and making sure that they can create an accessible products forthe masses and help a ton of people get a lot of value. That'sa really, really interesting dynamic. I think it reminds me of us.So I came up and broadcast television, running marketing teams inside, like localTV stations, and I would say for viewership like flat as the new up. If we could have the same number of viewers for a given show ortoo given time as we did the year before, like we win. It'sso interesting, I feel like so much of the dynamic you're talking about here, people are trying to hold on to the price point that they have whilethere's so much momentum and inertia toward cheap, free, and there are a lotof dynamics at play, and you already were, were clever enough tointroduce those early on in our conversation here. How about? How about a personwho's really affected the way you view the world or the work that youdo or really propped you up at a time that you needed it? Allright, so this one goes back to one of the court values. Formyself is leave everything better than the way you found it, and so that'sis one thing that I've tried to live my whole life by, and thatcomes to my grandpat, so power to him. That's excellent. I thatstewardship, sensibility and approach, whether it's... your work, whether it's toanother person's life, whether it's to at any aspect of the lives we lead. It's such good wisdom and I hope folks write that down or take itto heart. We do need to leave things better than we found them.You left this show better than you found it. I appreciate your time somuch. People want to go deeper on any of the things that we talkedabout. What are a few ways to catch up with you or some ofthe events or the book or Etcetera? How can people follow up on this? Yeah, absolutely so, regardless of if you want to find out moreabout the book, what my business is up to you, or the productled summit, just head on over to product ledcom. Awesome, easy enoughto do it. was that a was that domain just available? Nope,okay, I didn't think so, but you know, at the same time, it is really really early. Product ledcom. West Bush, thank youso much for your time here on the customer experience podcast. I appreciate youand I wish you continued success. Thank you so much. Clear Communication,human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of addingvideo to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just alittle guidance. So pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business.How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order todayat Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experiencepodcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategiesand tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcompodcast.

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