The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

45. The Modern Buying Process and Product-Led Growth w/ Wes Bush


We’re all familiar with the traditional sales-led way of acquiring customers:

They demo the product and are passed along to one of your salespeople. And, hopefully, the perceived value of your product matches their actual experience.

What if you just let them experience the value right away? No strings attached.

This product-led model is what Wes Bush sees for the future of selling (and not only for software).

Wes is the author of Product-Led Growth as well as the founder of the Product-Led Summit. He defines customer experience as the point where perceived value and experienced value meet.

Additionally, Wes shares:

  • What product-led growth is compared to a traditional sales-led model
  • Hurdles to look out for when transitioning from sales-led to product-led
  • What marketers should know about customer experience

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I think a lot of people are starting to realize, wait a minute, like there, there is a better way, of faster way to grow, and it takes a while for any company to really recognize that because there is that Nice, comforting, proven sales led playbook that works. We know it works, we have people on the skill set and we can just make it work. For now, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte Hey. Today on the customer experience podcast we're going to address what's been a missing piece in the customer experience conversation here on the show to date. I think word episode forty six here, so we're finally getting around to something really important. We regularly talk with marketing, sales and C executives and practitioners. I've hosted speakers, authors and consultants who specialize in things like branding, trust building and even customer experience directly. But today we're finally talking product, especially product at the intersection of sales and marketing. Our guest has years of experience and digital marketing in demand Jen, but he spent the past five or six years going D on product in particular. He's the founder of the product led institute, he's the author of product led growth and he's the host of the product led summit. He's democratizing the way people are learning about this product led movement. Westbush, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, me too, and I again I really appreciate we're just warming up a minute ago and I really appreciate what you're doing around these concepts of product led. When I read the book I felt like you were able to rope in what otherwise would have been disparate but super important ideas from people in a variety of seats. So I really appreciate what you're doing and thanks for spending time with us here. I'm going to start where I normally start, with the definition of customer experience. But before we do, you spent four years as the Aquatic Team Leader for why MCA Canada and I'm going to. I'm just guessing that something you learned and teaching kids to swim and running a team of people who taught kids to swim. What can that teach us about product experience or customer experience? Like, what did you learn then that you feel like it's maybe still relevant today? Wow, that's not a question I've had before. In terms of that whole experience, I really do think that teaching is something that is so powerful whenever it comes to really just simplifying things. I really think if you want to understand something, you really need to learn how to teach it, and so I think whenever you're trying to think about a customer experience, like if you're going to help someone, you really have to become a great teacher. And so I think that's a skill that,...

...although I've kind of teaching kids anymore, swimming was a long time ago. Yeah, it's definitely something that I still try and hone in on that skill and even with the product, that summit or my book, always trying to get better at teaching people in simplifying but everything down so that other people can pick up things easier and become successful with whatever, whether it's knowledge or skills you're trying to transfer. Love it. Great answer and again that you know. You know you've mastered something and we're able to teach it well and turn other students into masters themselves. A great answer and thanks for going all the way back there with me. I thought might be a little bit fun as an opener. So let's go. Let's let's ask the question that I ask everyone who is kind enough to spend time with me here when I say customer experience, what comes to mind for you? So when I think of like a really good customer experience, I think of two things. So the first thing is, whenever I'm looking at a company Ra let's say I'm starting on the website, I am looking at their perceived value. This is everything the marketers talk about, this is what they're promising me. And then there's on the other side of that, which is once you're on the product or you actually get that product, that's a physical product, there's the experienced value. So a good customer experience to me is where that perceived value, like what you're hoping you're going to get in that experience value, really lines up and it's just exactly what you expected, if not even better. So to me, customer experience is those two things. Is You got to see about experience value, and that lines up with exactly what you expected. I love it and you did a really nice pass in in the book on that topic and especially about the gap that often exists in what we need to do to close that. For folks who aren't familiar with the term product led, obviously it's something you've devoted your life to lately. Get folks like, especially in contrast to sales led growth, talk about product led growth. What is its definition? What are its primary characteristics? Yeah, so I think the really understands product right grow. That almost helps to take a step back and look at the traditional way of selling products, and for a lot of especially software companies, the very traditional way was you have this demo process and place and you hire ray expensive sales people to sell your product, and the whole goal of these companies is really to take you from point a to point B in the sale cycle and then eventually become a customer, whereas whenever it's a product led company it's really looking at seeing how can we show people the value of our product as soon as possible? In the whole buying cycle, and so it does come back to that. First part of my own belief about what customer experience is is really just instead of telling people like here's what our proct is, here's what the perceived value is, what we're trying to do in a product that company is actually show people by giving them the products, whether it's their free child Freeman model, by making them successful and having them experience that value, so that the value prop is experience. It's not something we're...

...just telling people. And so the reason why product that companies are really taking off and growing faster than their sales that counterparts, really does come to down that. That, I mean the best way to show, I mean build trust is to really just show people like here's our product, here's how we help you go see for yourself, and so I think product led growth in this whole movement isn't anything new. We've seen this in so many different categories. I mean if you go to costco or even try on Cologne at the airport, like there is so many instances of free trials or getting his samples of different things where, once we do try them, we want to see more of it. And so I really think product that grows. Now that it's finally hit the software world, software cominges are has an you know this, this works. This is a part of the buying cycle. We want to experience the product and see what it's all about. So that's what gets me really excited about product that growth, also about customer experience. Love it. The driving factors. They're right. So it's kind of a go to market strategy. What do you say? That's true. Yeah, absolutely. So what do you think are some of the driving factors in that shift from the traditional more sales led bottle to this? I mean, already got it some of it, which is people want this, people want that confidence. It's how we build trust. It's how we in our own minds, you know, we get rid of maybe some of that skepticism. Will remote remorse for confusion about is what I've been promised and what I'm expecting, what I'm actually going to experience. But from a cost standpoint, talk a little bit about some of the drivers in this shift from sales led to product led. Yeah, so that's a really good point too, and one of the big tidal waves that's that's happening for any business. This isn't a specific to software businesses, but it's the fact that it's become so much easier to start a business and so, taken at face value, that seems like this amazing thing, which it is. I mean, I've benefit from a lot of the same tools and everything else. It's never been easier to start a business, but at the same time it's also become a lot harder to grow one. And so now that there's so many competitors for every single type of category and business is becoming a lot more expensive to grow. And so customer acquisition cause are actually becoming a lot higher. It's actually a according to a report by profit I was fifty five percent. They've increased in the last five years and so that shows really no signs of stopping. So it's becoming a lot more expensive to get customers on board. But also customers are not as willing to pay as much for a lot of the same solutions as they were because, I mean, software is in this novel as it used to be, and so you have, on one hand, rising customer position cost on the other hand, people are just not willing to pay us much for it, and so that leaves you in a really awkward position where you're saying, well, we how do we get these people on board? Because they're not willing to pay as much and we can't actually spend as much. So either you have just smaller margins or you figure out a smarter way to sell. And so with the traditional sales ledway, I mean you're hiring inside sales team, often...'re hiring account executives and it's really expensive to make that model work. It's effective, it can work, but it's becoming less and less effective in those margins are getting smaller and smaller. On those businesses where with a product a business, whenever you're looking at the numbers, well, if that free trial or the freemium model can actually on board people and upgrade them on their own and maybe you know whence they do become successful and they do experience the value prop then yeah, absolutely, sales and everyone else, because miccess can reach out and really help those people on. But the majority of the work has actually been known by the product and so that's really cool. Whenever you look at the revenue per user of some of these companies, I mean like there's a trusts there. Forty million. Are Are Forty people. That's crazy and studies and that's incredible. Yeah, and the fact that they've been able to do that is actually possible because their product helps them do a lot of the heavy lifting on that on boarding front. So I think from a numbers perspective it's fascinating to look at that. Yeah, I think you're exactly right and you're echoing a couple previous guests on the podcast. David cancel from drift. We spend a lot of time talking about a couple of those key market dynamics that you just walk through, and and more recently Dan tire from hub spot. He's a sales guy. So for those of you who are listening, if you like that theme, I have a couple more conversations on those. Just visit bombbcom itunes or spotify or Google to go find it your favorite player. Where do you think we are in terms of this shift? Do you think? Do you think this is an inevitability, and your you and the folks you're working with and talking to and educating in the movement you're creating, is this an inevitability and if so, where are we in this shift from sales led to product letter? We in the very, very early days and folks that you mentioned, like a refts is. Are they pioneers? Like, where are we in this big picture in your in your view? So honestly, we're really early stage at this point. This movement is just starting and I think a lot of people are starting to realize, wait a minute, like there is a better way and faster way to grow, and it takes a while for any company to really recognize that because there is that Nice, comforting, proven sales led playbook that works. We know it works, we have people in the skill set and we can just make it work for now. But if you really want to build a long term business, you're going to start having to ask yourself some hard questions about is this the best go to market CHATU for us for the next ten years? What should we do about that? How can we help our customers become successful earlier on in the journey? And so I think for a lot of companies it's at this point where they're starting to ask a lot of those questions, which is great, but it's going to take a lot more for people to really kind of make that shift and change their company and how they really do market, sell, support customers. And there's a whole spectrum. It's not just let's put on a free trial on our website. You got to change your marketing. How you do that, your whole sales approach and a lot of different teams...

...dynamics have to change to yeah, it's funny. I feel like it puts a much heavier ask, obviously on the product itself. I think for years as people were you know, eat. Let's say just go back eight or ten years ago. You know, you build some software, you know you have the sales led model and I think you know once you get someone closed committed with a purchase, then you start to unbundle, like some of the shortcomings and you know, like we maybe new on the sales side, that the perceived experience wasn't going to be fully delivered in and you know, for some of the dynamics you mentioned in even in your previous response, that's not really tolerated anymore. Our expectations of move so far beyond that. I think you're exactly right and I do think there is an inevitability to it as well. You mentioned a playbook and I got to say the product led growth book that you wrote was very well sourced and super approachable insanely practical. I call it a practical guide to it, with terms and frameworks, examples and how to's, and it spans initial strategy. I'm speaking now to the listener, not just to you. I'm sure you know what's in the book and hopefully you find this to be a fair and accurate kind of a capture of it. But you know it's bands from initial strategy and go to because this is go to market strategy all the way through specific execution, including pricing, including email and messaging ideas. Is just really, really useful. When you committed to write the book and I understand why you would do it. I did similar in trying to advance this personal video movement. I thought a book would just help reach more people and it's tangible. It maybe buys you a little bit more credibility when you're trying to get a stage that you might not have been able to get otherwise, etcetera. But specific to the reader, what did you hope like if someone picks up or when someone picks up product led growth, you know, what do you hope that they take away from it at a high level in terms of a customer experience of a book buyer and book reader. Yeah, that's really interesting question, and so I think for the book buyer, what I didn't want to do, like the first six chapters if the book are really just identifying, like if the's is even a good fit, because I think with a lot of new innovations there's a lot of talk and people just like to say, Oh, let's jump on this band right there, and so I really want to make sure that people are taking an educated step in the right direction, actually vetting it, going through a lot of the questions but their executive team to see, you know, is this a good fit for the business? And so that's what I really tried to do is if it is a good fit, great, you the best of the book. If it is not, then I hopefully have saved you hundreds of thousand smallar as are millions dollars by not going down that path. So I think in that first six chapters that's really what I'm my whole goal was. And for those people that are pro product that it's a good fit for their business, what I'm really hoping they're going to walk away with is really understanding the fundamentals, because that's the the second part of the book he's really just understanding, like what are those main three things that you need... build a product, that business? And I think if you get those right and really hone in on them, is going to make all the difference for your entire business. And so that's really my whole goal is understanding it's a good fit for you and if it is, how do you take it to the next level? So, for folks who it is a good fit for, what are some of that you you know you do some active consulting. You're in these companies. Of course you brought your own experience, I think, which is what motivated you to go down this rogues you kept seeing the same problems over and over. So I think you're going to have some really good, in useful ideas here. Where are some of the biggest hurtles when an organization accepts and understands that this is a good fit for them? What are some of the implications or hurtles, like from a sales standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, from a CS standpoint or even from a product in Dev standpoint? Where do you see challenges and hurtles for companies that identify that this is a good fit for them? Yeah, so I think the way you sell really has to change and, depending on how big the business is, that can be absolutely petrifying because you're used to a certain sales motion in your business and now you're saying, let's just give our product away for free, for a little bit or, if it's a free trial or free him, potentially all or part of it for free. And from a sales perspective that's scary because I mean they have the demo goals and all their metrics are set up for this one side of the business, but then as soon as you introduce that free trial, you're going to see a conversion right go sky Rothing, skyrocket and people love it. And but then the sales teams, looking at that, come like our demos aren't as much and so there's this constant friction between the teams of pro product let and then sales let. Which one should you really take into consideration? So I think for bigger teams that's one of the biggest problems. That's any founder or a leader in that team is going to have to really go up against. And so if you don't have your leadership or even your board on board with this new direction, it's going to be really hard to pull it off if you are an established business. That's why often, if you are earlier on in your journey, it can be so much easier for you to really kind of flip the switch become product let from that day one, but in your first few years. Once you do, you get that product market flot. Okay, I think it's really really important this idea that, you know, in a lot of cases the people making decisions have only known it the sales led way, and so this is I mean there's just a sell in on the concept itself, which then is, you know, we're not tooled in staff for it. Our tool kid is designed for this function. And then, as you said, you know, I forget where they said petrified or another synonym of it just a minute ago. I can see that too, where it's like, but you know, we have twenty five million dollars that are all stacked on this particular approach like and we want to stack another try for twenty five million next year. Are we going to only stack twelve in then this thing's going to happen over here, like how I can see how it would be very problematic...

...and challenging culturally, especially the bigger the organization is, the more decision makers there are in the process and the more you have writing on it in a variety of different circumstances. You wrote in the book. It wasn't a huge passage, but it was one that was really interesting to me because I've heard a number of folks on the guests on the on this podcast talk about at this idea and it's something that's potentially controversial. I don't see it as such myself, but not all customers are created equal. That I think your language around it was. You know, if the Queen of England shows up at your place, you're not going to treat her the same way as you treat a buddy who shows up to like, watch the game on the television or something. Talk a little bit about the the implications in the context of these ideas, in this movement, this idea that not all customers are created equal. How do we need to be aware of that and what are its implications? Yes, so if, yeah, that perfect example, if someone does come who's a perfect fit customer, why are we espish when it comes to through your product and how you even on board them from the very beginning? Why are you giving them the same experience as everyone else. And so, as often something I see a lot of companies here where it's just like this one size fits all kind of onboarding, and it's a shame because there's some people who are perfect fit. And now we're getting the Click, the the I'm not a robot, butts in and filled all these forms and everything else, and is like, with modern tools, we can actually tell, sometimes before they even fell at that form, if they're a good fit. And so there's a lot of things we can do from a customer experience perspective that we can just expedite things for those people and really make sure that they have the best experiencing. Even it if we just use even simple terms like lead scoring and figuring out, okay, like this is a perfect customer. Let's reach out proactively and earlier and help them on board them in a new way or send them a video earlier on in the journey just show them like a welcome to our product experience. We're excited to have you actually personalize it, and so I think there's so many great things we can do earlier on and that journey to really goes back to that definition the customer experience. Like make that experience value just so much better than the perceived value that you really wow customers and that is really what feeds the word about marketing, in my opinion. Yeah, it's really good. In your exactly right. I mean, just thinking about I'm not I'm not deep in marketing APPs at here at Bombomb, but to your point of before the form gets filled out, I know that we know who's a good fit customer because we have software that allows us to know, maybe recognize some key domains when they're visiting the site, not even necessarily engaging with a form, and we can run that against a variety of data tools that tell us what their text act looks like and whether or not bombomb would plug into it. Well, because they use sales for so they use en desk or they use Gmail or they use outlook, and so you're exactly right and I like this idea that we can, not only can, but should invest more and people who are potentially worth more and for hardcore dive on that. I had recently the author of the customer centricity playbook and...

...she brought it was really a financial conversation, but she made the same arguments at it and just going back to you know, the cost pressures you talked about in the beginning. Costs more to acquire and yet competitions so high that you know, potentially lifetime values threatened because switching costs are so so easy and looks there's so much competition and the price expectation is lower. We need to really pay attention to the to the financial aspects of these things so separately. You offered a number of very useful frameworks in the book, but because this one in particular, when I when I read it out, it sounded a heck of a lot like customer experience and brand experienced. The Way I think about it, and you've already touched on it, but I think using the UCD framework, understand, communicate, deliver. If you just walk that out a little bit, I think that'll make your initial response on the definition of customer experience even more tangible for people. That's fans. So those of you that don't know what the UCD framework stands for, is really just understanding your customer and understanding your value and communicating that to your customers and then delivering on it. So if you're going to build any business, I think is framework could apply. Is Really I mean, I built it for product that businesses, but I apply it to my own and it works. And so the first part is just really understanding your value and your user and so that's just number one. Like, if you're not really focusing on that specific piece, you're going to be creating wrong products, you're not going to know what to communicate with them and really how to even personize that experience. And so one of the the biggest things I see people really just not investing enough and is that first part, and that's really the whole foundation of building a great business, is understanding that value and how you can help people better, whereas the second part is really how to communicate your value to people. And so how you do that, especially for as over companies, there's many different ways. There's obviously the text on your websites, there's also your pricing, and so I think whenever it comes to product led businesses, it's actually a little trickier because the value that you're communicating is often tied to your customer position model, and so what I call it is a arranged marriage between your pricing and your customer acquisition model. And so how it works is essentially, let's say you give away all your features and everything on your product for free. Like your customer acquisition model it's sky rockets, but you're pricing and your revenue model it tanks and you go out of business. So you got to find like where's that happy medium? And so I think for a lot of businesses, I think of benefit from having a value metrip. What that's using email subscribers, if you're in the email kind of space, or even per video or something like that's really kind of a line. You're pricing with the value that someone gets from your product so that whenever they do make that decision, if they should go ahead of it, they're only paying for what they're really getting out of the product. And then the last part is really just making sure that you deliver on that value. And so that, to me, is really...

...where I kind of break down that whole proceed versus experience value and really had to eliminate the value gap. Like when people do sign up, they have this expectation and did you meet it in the reality? And so a lot of companies in the reason why product that comes are taking off is because there's been so many companies where there's just a massive like a crater of a value gap, and so the bigger that is, the heart it is going to be for you to convert people into happy paying customers, and so that's really the the UCD frame, or get a high level, but I think the the big part there is focus on understanding your customer and eliminate your value gaps so that whatever people are, whatever you're communicating people, aligns with what you're delivering. Yeah, so useful as as you were talking about that gap as thinking, okay, probably the bigger the gap, when done poorly, we're off and probably pouring people into a CS team to try to help. Like you know, you said, creators like to try to like fill it up and raise people up like it is heavy manual liftway, when in fact a great product experience can do a lot of that for you. You usually use the word that I wanted to go to next, I feel like one of the themes. Obviously it's used explicitly throughout the book, but it's one of those words. It's a little bit buzzy and so I think there are variety definitions on it. Talk to me about what you think of when you think about personalization. I think that word gets thrown a lot around, a lot. I think it's kind of like value or authenticity. How do you think about personalization and its value and its importance in this context? So in this context, the way I really love personization and see our work best is really based on outcomes. So if I co sign up for your product, like there's yes, it as video, but there's specific use cases. Am I going to use it? To Send IT TO PROSPECTS? Is this going to be used for marketing? And so the best personization, whenever comes your product, really is focused around those core outcomes. And then what you can do within the product experience is if someone clicks on, let's say I want to send videos for prospects, you're accelerating them to that part of the products that they actually care about and you actually will help them create that first video to go to one of their prospects, because that is an amazing customer experience. That is helping them do exactly what they signed up to do and you're just helping them along. So personization for me is really just making sure that your products, it helps people get to that point that they care about a lot quicker. It's great. So you're a marketer who's kind of made this shift. I'd say product marketing, but it's so much bigger than that. But as a market WHO's made a transition in thought, in focus on the product experience, what do you wish more marketers understood about the product function? Yeah, so I think it's about time a lot of people start looking at the product as your marketing, like the product is your marketing, and the more or I guess, the sooner you realize that, the more you can look at that product and say, how can you help me? Because a marketer,...

...there's a lot of ways your product can help you. And so I did mention a little bit earlier when growing to the UCD framework, like your customer position model, like if you, let's say, give away some of those features for free, that's that's marketing and it's really helping power that part of your business to get more people incentivized to actually try out your product and see what some of those features can do to help them in their lives. So I think for any marketer WHO's trying to make that switch, just start asking you is out, how that product can help you, because there is going to be a ton of ways that can help you. It's good. The summit. I've been leaning on the book a lot because I read it somewhat recently. I just reread it. As I mentioned before we hit record. I always read with a pencil so I can go back through it and rip out notes and things. So's that's all up of mind for me. But talk a little bit about the summit. You were kind enough to invite me into it to offer some some training. As part of that, you invited people from a wide variety of companies and even a wide variety of functions within organizations. What we trying to do with the summit? What's the state of it? You have another one come in like talk a little bit about summit. Yeah, absolutely so, thanks again from chest getting. That was awesome. And so for the product led summit, the whole goal of it is really just to democratize what product led growth is all about. So what I'm doing is really reaching out to Sass operators who are actually doing the work, who are really great at what they're doing, and just asking them to share how they're doing it with other folks. And so that whole model, although it seems very simple, is really taking off because there's so many people are realizing you know, there's other companies just like them who are building product that businesses and those are kind of their their peers and they want to see how they're doing it. And that is the one of the best ways you can really learn is from someone who might be maybe one or two years ahead of your business and you get to really dissect and just learn from those people and see how they're doing it. And so with the summit that's really what I'm hoping to do with it, because product led growth. They can be this crazy looking thing like it's great way to grow Your Business, but how? And so that's really what I'm hoping to share through a lot of other experts at the summit and break it down love it. So, from what you've learned from these people and in your own experience, this is going to be kind of a medium size setups to so stay with me. You have a product in a Dev team that are ideally joined at the hip. You have sales and marketing, which ideally joined at the hip. You have CS. The you hope is is tied into marketing into sales pretty closely and that there's good communication around all of them. If a company that's been operating somewhat traditionally, is trying to reorganize or restructure, like are their new roles that need to be created? Are Their new cross functional meetings that need to happen? From your experience and learning from all of these different people in a bunch of awesome companies, by the way, if you haven't looked at the summit,...

...someone listening to this episode, I mean West is rounded up people from tons of companies you've heard of and then other companies that you maybe haven't but if accomplished some really cool thing. So, through all of that learning, what would you recommend from an organizational or structural standpoint, or even a functional standpoint? Where are some of the first steps as people are starting to move this way? What is it require to get going? Yeah, and so that part really depends on kind of what stage you're at. And so if you are, let's say just a manager at a big company, you really have to try and get your ad management on board and that would be step one. But if you are let's say management and you are on board and you're trying to think about how you can make this work in your business, well in that pretticular case, but I recommends is trying to set up a tiger team. So get some people, or like at least one person for the marketing team, one person from the sales team, engineering and support, and really just set them down and try and think about how you can improve this whole product experience. And the reason I recommend getting people from a variety of different backgrounds throughout the company is because that's exactly what you need to be its a great customer experience. It is not just you know that on boarding or that product team that handles everything is like. No, everyone has that touch point with the customers. So you need to make sure that everyone's aligns on why we're doing this and actually able to implement this, because it's one thing. I mean, markers can talk a lot, whenever it comes to you creating that product experience and actually rolling it out, you do need other people. So for that management, if you do want to have that product, that a company and roll it out slowly, I would recommend building a tiger team. I really appreciate that you took it there, because that alignment in the multiple voices into planning, strategizing, decisionmaking and execution is so, so important, especially going forward. Because we all see the product differently, we all see the customer differently based on our different seats in the house. You know, we're a medium sized company, about a hundred and fifty different people. So it's still small enough that we can get everyone in one room and try to communicate eight things, but it's also big enough that, you know, even in a healthy culture it can get really, really silod and so breaking that down and getting multiple voices and perspectives and is so important for me, just out of my own ignorance. Tiger is tiger and acronym. Is that like what is captured in the term tiger? Yeah, so tigers can move quick and fast. Okay, so very God. I think that's why it gets the Tigers. Yeah, because, like sometimes it might be called a growth team or something like that. Yeah, and I find the more companies our work with, especially even at the scale you're at, a lot of the management definitely relies on a team that can move really quickly and they have breadth of skills and they can really focus on a lot of different things and at least chest and that these ideas pricker. It's good. This has been awesome. I really really appreciate what you're doing. I think in a previous email exchange we had, you mentioned that maybe a dozen of our... members are subscribed to some of the stuff that you're putting out. I'd more yeah, and and so. So we really appreciate what you're up to and and I think you're a hundred percent looking forward again, just thinking about the themes that I that I read, that I've experienced in in some of the web based in email communication you put out and the other conversations I've heard on the show. I just there's so many connective themes here and so I wish you continued success doing that. But before I let you go, I've got a few things for you. First, because relationships are our number one core value here on the show and at bomb them, I love to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and give a mention to a company or more that you feel is really delivering for you a great experience as a customer. Okay, so I'll start with the amazing customer experience. So right now I'm reading the everything book and which is all about Amazon, and so I really like the inside scoop on just how Amazon really approaches their whole customer experience and Sarah, the one thing that I thought a lot of companies don't think about that I love that they're focusing on is the fact that they're trying to focus on how they can charge to less for everything that they offer, where I think a lot of companies are always on the other end of that and trying to think about how we can just charge as much as possible. And whenever it comes to product a businesses, I see a lot of them trying to democratize just how to do some of these tools and really get people on board. Even though I was talking to vco of hot jar and I was one of the things it was really expensive to create heat maps earlier on, and so they made sure that people could get this amazing tool at a fair price, and so I really respect a lot of businesses that are prioritizing that and making sure that they can create an accessible products for the masses and help a ton of people get a lot of value. That's a really, really interesting dynamic. I think it reminds me of us. So I came up and broadcast television, running marketing teams inside, like local TV stations, and I would say for viewership like flat as the new up. If we could have the same number of viewers for a given show or too given time as we did the year before, like we win. It's so interesting, I feel like so much of the dynamic you're talking about here, people are trying to hold on to the price point that they have while there's so much momentum and inertia toward cheap, free, and there are a lot of dynamics at play, and you already were, were clever enough to introduce those early on in our conversation here. How about? How about a person who's really affected the way you view the world or the work that you do or really propped you up at a time that you needed it? All right, so this one goes back to one of the court values. For myself is leave everything better than the way you found it, and so that's is one thing that I've tried to live my whole life by, and that comes to my grandpat, so power to him. That's excellent. I that stewardship, sensibility and approach, whether it's... your work, whether it's to another person's life, whether it's to at any aspect of the lives we lead. It's such good wisdom and I hope folks write that down or take it to heart. We do need to leave things better than we found them. You left this show better than you found it. I appreciate your time so much. People want to go deeper on any of the things that we talked about. What are a few ways to catch up with you or some of the events or the book or Etcetera? How can people follow up on this? Yeah, absolutely so, regardless of if you want to find out more about the book, what my business is up to you, or the product led summit, just head on over to product ledcom. Awesome, easy enough to do it. was that a was that domain just available? Nope, okay, I didn't think so, but you know, at the same time, it is really really early. Product ledcom. West Bush, thank you so much for your time here on the customer experience podcast. I appreciate you and I wish you continued success. Thank you so much. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance. So pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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