The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

60. The Context Marketing Revolution w/ Mathew Sweezey


As the customer experience evolves, so do our motives.

Consumers are no longer motivated by a great piece of content (if they ever were). They’re motivated as long as you can offer them the best solution at the most essential time.

In fact, the director of market strategy at Salesforce — Mathew Sweezey — wrote an entire book on what exactly goes into context marketing. That book, entitled Context Marketing Revolution: How to Motivate Buyers in the Age of Infinite Media, lays out in detail how marketers can break through the world of endless noise we’ve built.

Luckily for us, Mathew was kind enough to hop on The Customer Experience Podcast and answer a few questions.

What we talk about:

  • Why collaboration and executive buy-in make for top marketing performers
  • How businesses can grow by way of holistic customer experience
  • The origin of his new book, Context Marketing Revolution
  • Why we’ve become immune to attention-based marketing
  • How to take a human-centered approach to marketing
  • The benefits of using video in a holistic CX

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It doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you have the executive buy into be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences to make sure they're consistent and holistic, and that's the new pathway to grow. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butaute. Asking how can we make our marketing better is the wrong question. Instead, we need to ask why isn't our marketing working? When you ask why, you get much different answers, and that question and those answers are at the heart of the work being done by today's guest. He's been at sales force for seven and a half years, initially as an evangelist and presently as principle of marketing insights. He's the author of marketing automation for Dummies and the context marketing revolution, a new book that I've already pre ordered. I'm really looking forward to he's the producer and host of the Electronic Propaganda Society, a smart, valuable and even fun podcast series that rightfully earned a stack of awards. He's a contributing writer for sites like Forbes, marketing props and convince and convert. He's a frequent keynote speaker who I finally saw speak and finally met in person at Dream Force for recently. And he's the cofounder of a brewery, Matthew sweezy. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah, really looking forward to the conversation. Before we get go and just tell me a little bit about even tide brewing in Atlanta. How that come together? What's that look like? It's the craft brewery that me and a few other friends started. We just had our we just celebrated our sixth anniversary the beginning of this month and yeah, so, I mean it's just kind of tagline. Is Great. Doesn't have to be complicated, just a few friends making good beers and we sell all across the state of Georgia's awesome. I will look for it when I get down to Georgia, which I'm planning to do the summer. It's a separate story. Let's start where we always start on the podcast and I you have such a unique perspective on it. No, well, research perspective, but we'll start the way I always ask it, which is your thoughts or characteristics or your definition of customer experience. Yes, there's two ways to answer that question. One is it's not up for me to define. It's up for each of our customers to define in their own way, and I think that's actually what the definition is. It's what does someone perceived that they want the experience to be? I think we understand that. And then the flip side is then, how do we, as a brand fulfill that? and to me the experience is always the sum of all parts. Right, it's not one thing, it's the sum of everything that we do. We can use the term across the customer journey, but it's inclusive of marketing. It's inclusive but product experience, product Ques, support service. So to me I would put a capital ty and a capital e on the experience and assume that it's the sum of all things that we do. Love it. It touches on so many themes that people share. But you capture really concise fashion. There and you talked about the entire customer life cycle there and some of the research that you've done with some folks at sales force shows the high performing marketing organizations are seventeen times better at collaborating across other departments, like you mentioned, sales, service, product etc. Talk a little bit about that research and some of the tips that come out of it for folks who are listening. How can we collaborate better? Whether you're a market or not. The collaboration goes both ways. So give some give a little bit more context there and maybe some tips for people. Yeah, so the research. So every year it sales force we do a state of marketing and over the past five years the focus of that effort has really been to identify the key trace between high performing marketing organizations and everyone else. And just sword one's clear, these high performers are radically outperforming there ten times more likely to be significantly being their direct competition. And then we start...

...looking at what are those factors like? How are they actually able to do that? And, as you notice, one of the larger factors with this idea of collaboration to the number one key trade of all high performers is executive buy into a new idea of marketing that's very much in line with the definition of the experience that we just talked about. In fact, that new definition of marketing is that marking is the owner and sustainer of all experiences, not just the creator of messages, but it's a once that becomes the foundation. Then we start tactically looking at what high performers are doing, and it takes collaboration because, as we talked about, experience with a Capul t, a capitalis across all touch points and only when you have collaboration can those things then be consistent and holistic and then create the experience that is required. When you look at very specific use cases of saying all right, and it's some of these things are baffling, like it's not a radical idea, right, it's not like Oh and I never thought of that, like Duh, right, it's one of those kind of concepts. But then when we look at the actual task coll execution, of how well or organizations able to execute, I mean basic concepts of collaboration like, take a simple example, let's not market the people who are in the support you. Pretty simple. But what you might be surprised there's only one third of all businesses can actually do that and it's because the way that we've currently been structured as marketing is a department that sits outside sales of the zone, department, support, service, product at all silod departments operating for their own goals. And I was talking to a company the other day and they see, yeah, I tried to go over and talk to support and said, can I get a list of all the people and are in the support you so I can suppress them from this outcoming marketing email, and the answer that the support team gave them was no, that's my data, you can't have it right. So when we face it, and and that's not the only company, a lot of us face these problems. So to overcome these it's a couple of things. One is your executives have to understand at the highest economic output that you can produce is the experience. Right, eighty four percent of consumers say the experience is just as important as the product or service. It is a new product that we are selling in one might say it's the greater of the products because it is everything and it touches all things. Where's product usage is only a small sliver of the total time. It is. Those are some basic concepts and ideas, but it, you know, just the idea of experience has to go through and that's what high performers are doing. They have the executive buying and that it allows them to have that collaboration. Yeah, it mean you really get to the one of the main reasons I started this podcast was out of partly out of my own interest in this. It's like we all get it. It's super important. Product parity is through the roof hyper competition. The experience is more important than ever and, to your observation, probably the most important thing. And yet when it comes to executing it's really difficult because even in a healthy culture we can start to feel Silod so I love that you go to executive buy in there. I'll just one more follow up on that. Talk about the consequences. Like let's assume that a company's executive team is bought in on this idea that capital tea capital ev experience is the most important thing. Talk about the effect on like the relationship between CMOCRO and CXO chief experience officer. I know that you've read and spoken a bit on that. Like what are you seeing around these titles in the relationships with team, tween these people, acronyms. You left one off to that was CGEO, chief growth officer. So really, you know, when we when we start to talk about the tactle, the tactical execution of these ideas, and we start to say if marketing and it's old format is no longer what we are now doing, then the old executive no longer is appropriate, right, and so the CMO being the old executive. And actually, you know, it's interesting. If you've not been in the marketing field for a while, you might not know that Cmo was a pretty new term and it came out as digital came out, right when digital marketing came out, the truly when CMO comes out in the forefront. Before that it was VP of sales and marketing for most the organizations, VP of marketing for other organizations. Now that we move forward,...

...right, and Cemo took on the rolls of digital branding, advertising, all those different aspects, email direct now we start to say to the experience, right, and so there's two ways to look at experience. One, as you can say, we are going to focus on experience, and that is just a term. The other flip side of the same coin is to say that we are going to look at growth. So it's either a chief experience officer or chief growth officer, and that, we see, is kind of driving a lot of these. We also still have the CRO chief revenue officer, and that also could be looking at growth and just depends on how they use the definition. But really I see one of those three formats, either chief experience, chief growth or chief revenue officer, really being the future leader of the marketing organization because they're focused on a holistic goal and that hold the goal is growth by a better experience, and we say growth at the exact same word is revenue. So it doesn't matter if your CROCGEOC Exo, that really is the future, but that leader, when that would be clear on what that leader must do. That job is to create a connected experience. They must be the one who says, all right, we increase revenue not by just selling more product but by creating a better experience across the entire life cycle. That's just as important for us to create a good service and connect that to marketing and messaging, just as much as it is to put New People into the pipeline and service them all the way through. So yes, I think all three of those are accurate and doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you have the executive buy into be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences to make sure they're consistent and holistic. And that's the new pathway to growth. Love it. I'm going to I'm going to give you a couple of your own quotes and ask you one follow up before we get onto the context marketing, revolution, new book or Harbor Business Press. Right, I might ask about that relationship to because that's cool. Publisher. But but before you just a couple quotes of yours, marketing creates experiences, not messages. Your brand isn't what you say. It's to some of all experiences you create. Right, I think you've already touched on some of these teams already, but talk about just because it has been a background thing as I've been talking with a variety of people in a variety of seats in a conversation like the one we're having now. Talk about your view of brand experience and customer experience. Are they synonymous or is it just semantic and you don't even care, it's not interesting to you. I'm more on the second of it's just semantics, because what is brand? Well, brand is the sum of all experiences, right, and if that's what we define as brand, or it's so, I mean it. And then how you tactically execute those could be different things. Right, is the tactical execution? Is the goal of the marketing to drive and engage in a move the person forward into a customer journey? That's much going to be much more of a customer Experience Marketing Initiative. Where is what? If the goal is just to make sure people are aware of us, know who we are, that's much more of a traditional brand, ie, just becoming aware of who we are and what our mission and what our ideas are. So to me they're both the exact same thing, because I believe brand is the sum of all experiences that you that you create. And the reason I say that it's because you can tell the world all the messages, you can say this is who we are, you can put all the pretty pictures up, you can just have the best copying, best advertising in the world. That's branding. But as soon as they interact with you in any way, shape or form. If that's not consistent with the message or the projection of the expectation that you've set, then you're you don't have a brand right, because the sum is they found something radically different and now they feel lied to. Hence you now have a very bad brand. So to me it's it's the lot of it's to some of all experiences and they're really the same thing to me. Yep, good, and it's not just it's not just that it can go terribly bad. I mean, does that disconnect? Just plane create confusion? Not even which, of course, is a negative sentiment as well. So the context marketing revolution, how to motivate buyers in the age of infinite media? Full title of the book, that is you know. This will be released, I think, a little bit before the book, March released. Yeah, this episode will be a little bit before it. Before we get into some of the themes and topics, when did you know that this was a book that you wanted to write? Like, why did you? Because you're you know, you're studying these things, you're talking about them, you're teaching them,...

...etcetera. Like. When did you say I need to round this up and put it in a book. Yeah, so I don't know when that was. I think it probably came down to when I was doing the research. And just so I'm always constantly researching topics and researching things, and one of the things I was trying to research was what is the cost of marketing going to be in the future? And when I started to look at that, that required me to say, all right, if what is the cost to break through the noise? And then that one more step was we now need to start measuring the noise. So I started measuring noise fro oneousand nine hundred all the way through and projected to two thousand and thirty best as I could. And then when I started to find out was how we started to think about these things and the environments that marketing is taking place in a radically different from the fundamental level, from a media theory level, and so once I started to realize that and realize that the iterations that we continue to iterate upon, we're specific games that were created for a specific environment and that no longer is true, that's really when I decided that, all right, this is this is big. We need to really think about this and focus on this, because this is not an iteration on old marketing ideas. Right, iterating on old ideas will not curious forward into the future. Back to the quote you opened up with, we ask how do we be better? We simply take the ideas and foundations and iterate upon them. Well, it's the foundational ideas are no longer correct. We're iterating upon something and creating something bad. So we have to question those foundations and I think when I realized and did the research on noise been found that we entered a new media environment, that that's really when I decided that, hey, this is important, we should talk about this. Cool, I think, since I have not read the book, I think one way to get out it is through the title, and we're right on the doorstep of this one. Talk about what you mean by infinite media and what are its consequences, because that really is the crux of a lot of this. Totally so infinite media. So if we follow media theory, which is really kind of spearheaded by Marsh mccluhan, Harold Ennis Neal Postman, it's essentially a theory that says human behavior is dictated by the media environment that surround them. Right, and when we think about media environment. It's not twitter, social media, it's something much greater, you know, just like the basic concepts of how the printing press took the world out of the Dark Ages and into the age of enlightenment. So infinite media is in contrast to limited media. And before two thousand and nine, based on my mathematics, that was the limited media environment and that meant three specific things. Media was limited in terms of creation, in terms of distribution, in terms of total consumption. So when those three things are limited, that's a very specific environment and we play a very specific game within that environment. Right. And if you look at who had access, you know, to overcome any one of those barriers, they required capital. So bright, predominantly noise, was created by businesses. There was a monopoly. And then would after two thousand and nine, what we find is that the individuals creating their own media, right on social media, on email, as well as their devices, they now are the largest creators of noise, since noise is very different and also it follows a very different pattern where they continue to create more and more and more and from more players. So we see an infinite level of noise rising. Right. There's no barriers to creation there's no barriers to distribution and there's an infinite amount of content available flat for access. What this really means is that consumers now operate in a different world and they have different decisionmaking tools and they have different decisionmaking processes. So the way that marketing was reis and crafted was to stay. We are here to motivate individuals given a specific set of circumstances of how they make decisions. What I'm arguing for saying, all right, consumers now have a radically different decisionmaking process and the role of marketing now is radically different. which much which must match that process based on the environment. So, along the short, infinite media means that now consumers are in control and how we motivate them is not by grant copy or single advertising campaigns where we said something so created we got them to take action.

Rather, we must understand that these things now take plays across a series. Everything is a journey and motivation is done by guiding individuals by step by step, across that journey, not by trying to get them to skip steps. So it's pretty much the basis. Yep, it makes perfect sense, and that's just to tie it back for people that that haven't tied it back in their own heads already. That is why this iterative approach is, how do we make it better? Does not apply because it we're just building on old blocks. As funny I remember reading a book. It's called scientific advertising. Is like a either a thin book or just really amazing pamphlet that decades and decades old, and it's basically so much when I think about a lot of digital advertising right now. In the iterative approach, you and we can, we can do a be test faster, but essentially it's the same thing this guy was writing about in direct mail and magazine adds decades and decades and decades ago. So, you know, we feel like we're so well equipped in the pace of things as fast, but still it's an iterative approach. Nonetheless. Let's go to the front side of the title of the book, the Context Marketing Revolution. I think revolution is already baked in. I think it. Anyone that's listening to what you're talking about and the consequences of the age of infinite media sees that this is revolutionary. But talk a little bit about context marketing. What is context in this context? Yeah, yeah, so, so context is once again, it's in contrast is something. It's in contrast to the word attention. So the foundation of marketing in the limits of media era was how do we break through, grab some of the tension and get them to do what we want? Right? That was how we motivated people to Action. Now when we see is we motivate people by context, and that really has a couple of factors. One saying that with infinite media, we now have an intermediary between brands and individuals. That intermediary is artificial intelligence. Will Ai is only going to let through what is contextual to that individual, to the moment, because that's which generates the highest engagement. And you can see. Look at any social feed, look at anything that's mediated by a digital by the by Ai, and you will see it's the contextual feed. Your Google search results, you've the results are specific to you in the context of you in that moment. Right. You look at social media, that feed is a contextual feed, not our chronological feed. You look at your email inbox right in. The list goes on and on and on. So for number one, for a marketing to break through, it has to be in context of the moment. That's key. Number one for contact. Key number two is that context also means. What does it mean to the individual? So we got on this big kick of content marking. Right, all we need to do is create content. But the problem is no individual ever said, damn, I want content today, right. So what they want, if they want something that's contextual, to help them solve a goal. Right, and since really the definition of the tactical execution of context is how do we help, being into the individuals, solve the goal of the moment, and by helping them accomplish that goal, we build the trust we need. Right, and doesn't matter where it is, we break through because we can help them with that moment. We then build the trust we need and then we're able to leverage that moment to guide them to the next step and by doing that we then are able to then generate the demand by guiding people, by saying we're going to take this and keep you going down this path. And then that's kind of the basic concepts. That's really your concept of context. In the contrast to attention, awesome for folks who are listening. Normally weude wait to the end of the episode, but I'll just go ahead and say it for you. The context marketing revolution is available for preorder. You can preorder on Amazon. That's what I did. You know, if you like these ideas, and I'll transition, there's a there's a way you can get a preview of a lot of these ideas too, and a really cool format, but really quickly. Now. Did you build a proposal and shop at to different publishers? How'd you get connected with Harvard Business? Yeah, so I wrote an outline, roaded draft and then pitched it to a bunch of different publishers. So I had three publishers willing to publish it. Then when Harvard's one of them, Harvard business, and who's who doesn't want who has in dream of being published by Harvard Business, I was like sure, let's let's have you guys publish it. That's how it happened. Awesome. Congratulations. For people who like these ideas and are in...

...anticipation of the book itself, I want to offer that you can go to itunes or apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcast, wherever you listen to the customer experience podcast, and go search electronic propaganda. Society Award winning series, incredibly well produced, unlike this one in so many other podcasts, not interview based, you know, it lays out all of these theories over and and ideas and research over nine episode in so, I guess just to open it up on on the electronic propaganda society, what were you trying to deliver in terms of experience, like why the Audio Format and why this style of production? Maybe? Yeah, a couple of reasons. One, I'm a creator, just I think most of us are, and I wanted to create something Rad right, just pure passion project, no bounds, see how far I can push and see how radically creative I can be with something, and so I've created that format right. So it's not a traditional podcast, it's not interview based, it's a basic very much off cereal. So it's a nine series episode that tells a single story and then it's heavily researched, heavily produced, just because I wanted to do it that way and I thought that's would make a good experience and make a really cool make something that people would enjoy. You know, it's very different than anything that's out there and it's why I want so many creative awards for it when it came out. So I believe I've got five creative awards for it currently. But yes, that was it and and it's super red and it's something like you've never heard before and that was kind of the point. I agree completely and and it really does tea up all the stuff we've been talking about so far. I love it as a compliment to having seen you present on some of these topics and an anticipation of the forthcoming book. I think they're probably a lot of connections with they're obviously are a lot of connections between them. What were some of your inspirations? Like, are you a podcast listener or you know, like, what were some of your inspirations? Is You're like trying to create something that was awesome for you. So I don't listen to mini podcast. I think it listened to to. I think I made it almost all the way through cereal, but I think just just radical formats of content. Write a great a great documentary, a great docu series, and I just figured that it was easier to do by a podcast and any other format. So I did it by the PODCAST. For Inspiration, definitely serial. I reach out to a friend of mine WHO's a producer at w whatever. The public radio station is in New York. My brain stopped. But read some books sound reporting. That was written by MPR. So kind of just you know, audio how to do those things. But really just listened to podcast. Just would then go listen to the top rated podcast and been listen to what I believe made them top rated and then just mimics that. So it wasn't like some crazy thing. And then really the theme was, you know, s and s Soviet are propaganda. So I was kind of like the underlying artistic seame for this. Hence, you know, the revolution. That kind of was, you know, the visual format. Yeah, you'll really push the downd. You'll know you found the right podcast when you see some of that that era artwork. It's really the whole theme is really well developed. Obviously you drew in a ton of I mean one of to me, one of the most impressive things from our production standpoint, was how much original audio you brought into it, clips and quotes and speeches and the night rider theme song and historical clips and like fun editing stuff. But you also reference several books that I just really love and respect and I'm just going to name a handful of them. The cluetrain manifesto. You Wan done the experience. He account of me by Pining Gilmore. They have a new one out recently. The medium is the message from a clue and who you're already referenced. Permission Marketing from Seth Goden, which was very fundamental to us at bombomb as we started getting going, and one of my personal favorite books of all times, small, ast beautiful, by EF Schumacher. What am I too? Yeah,... are you like a prolific reader? Like how in any other if I mentioned those books and people liked a couple of them? You know, what are some other favorites that you've got? It's so first off, so I don't know if I consider myself prolific. I consider myself a follower of rabbit holes. So when I start going down, when there's a question in my head, I try to then go research and follow that rabbit hole until it's exhausted. And what that really ends up with is me going down very Arcad Arcane, archaic like different paths and finding random authors, little books or big books that not better on that topic. And so it's really kind of how I come across all those and then in conversation of Hey, I read this with a friend. Oh well then, have you read this? Three organic probably find them. So I wouldn't consder myself. That's really prolift think I have read a lot, just based on the work I do and kind of those rabbit holes and making sure I and really I think it comes o out of the reason I do that. It's not because I'm a prolific reader. It's more or less because I'm insecure, and I think the insecurity is I never want to be on stage and say something and have someone say that's wrong because you never read this book and in this book he argues against that point. Right. So I wanted to make sure that I had a theoretical foundation, that you know, I knew everything, anything that is going to come at me, and I think that was the reason I read. I wouldn't say I'm a prolific real I just say I did for those reasons. The second on the other books that people may enjoy, such a hard question to answer and there's so many books that I read from so many different things, and it's like you want a historical contact. It's like, all right, we talked about feedback loops, but it's like. Did you ever really read the original book, which is Robert? There's original books by we'd remember. I can't pronounce the last name. You talked about feedback, loose back in the s now is really the foundational aspect of then telling all those concepts. And you know, we talked about experience and you know the experience economy, Josephine, Jim Gilmore foundational to that theory. Doc searls, one of the CO authors of flu trained Meniphists. Tho's got a bunch of other books. That film's got a bunch of other books and there. You know, it just depends on how nerdy or how tactical or how practical you want to be with the book recommendation. And there's so many good books out there that just so hard. But if I could just take a second to talk about what you said was your favorite and my favorite, which is ef h Monk Er, smallest, beautiful, so pretty much a seen through the majority of my favorite books. It's this constant theme of humanity of Efh mocker talks about, you know, and there's lots of quotes I use and one is that, you know, industry is, you know, so great and it but it's so inefficient to a degree that we don't really realize it's inefficiency. Hence we just let it continue being inefficient. Right. But if we start to look at these things and say, all right, if we put humans at the center of everything, right, if we put humans at the center of our business, right, if you put humans at the center of what marketing should be, we put humans in the center of Economics, we see a very different approach and on that. And if you haven't read the book all that, Autistubsle the island, I would say make sure you read auto stubs of the island. It's not a marketing book. It's totally a book about humanity and about you know what, if we thought about living in a different way. But I think that's the my favorite theme through all those books is just a challenge and I just can't, I can't say enough about sumchers theories of you know what, if we thought about economics, not is the highest financial return, which is the highest stakeholder theory return, which is essentially he talks about way before stakeholder theory became the same, and that's then leads you into purpose driven business, purpose of the marketing. I do believe purpose is a massive, powerful force and all of our marking in the future must have an element of purpose in it, just because it focuses us on conversations past our product. I'm so it allows this to have a more human relationship or more honest relationship, pass just a product with our with our audience, when our market place. I don't know if I answer your question, man. That was that was a great, great pass the subtitle of small as beautiful as economics, as if people matter mattered and and I love the way you see. You captured and summarized it there, and I agree with you on purpose. I see it more and more often. I think it's you know, one of the big, you know, consumer package goods conglomerates, was talking...

...about how they're going to start folding some of their brands if they can't identify a an authentic purpose that transcends like paper towels or toothbrushes or whatever else they're selling. You know they're going to start peeling off some of the brands and, you know, putting them off to market because purpose matters so much. I think it does. I'm probably abusing the word context here, but I think that purpose gives people some context for their participation with you and your product or your service, and I just advocate, and I'm sure you would too, it is that that, that it is sincere is a big deal. I think you know anything about you know a lot of the shallow surface layer, you know, flimsy purpose stuff to people just staple up over the front of the store or whatever. You know, storefront or whatever as a as a concept falls away really quickly. So it needs to be sincere and authentic to the core of the business. I think it's one of the things for us here at bomb bomb we were very clear on what we were trying to do in the world in the way that we wanted to operate from the beginning. I don't know that it I don't know that it came it has bled through as much to our customers as much as maybe it could, should would in the future, but I think having it early and having it be clear and shared is a really big deal. Purpose is purposes a thing. We could probably do twenty minutes on purpose, but I'm going to try to let you get back to your date or just a little bit. I got a couple other topics for you. One of them. You're kind enough to to review and say some Nice things about a book that I co authored with Steve Passonelli, my good friend and team member here. It's called Rehumanize Your Business. I think it kind of it does what you were talking about, which we tried to put the human at the center of of video in particular, and so I just love for you to share your thoughts. And you know, I saw you put up a linkedin post recently about increased consumption of video projected into the future. Talk a little bit about one to one video, this this human to human video, as well as just video in general. Anything you got on video, I'd love to hear it. Yeah, so, yeah, posted this morning actually. So doing my research on my twenty future of marketing. Two Thousand and twenty. Put out a future of every year about marketing. Then one of the big things is, you know, just going out about five years. What we need to be really cognizant of is g and more free time. So one of the things is as five he comes about and as we start to offload more things to Iot, we're going to start to open up more free time. We vote for free time every year since, you know, digital is become a thing, it's going to come even greater. So I talked about you know, if we go five to ten out, we start to get into this self driving cars. Well, what do we then do with two hours and free time every day? Right? Well, we're going to consume content, and one of the most consumable pieces of content with five g will be video. And it's we start looking at and you know how they going to break down, short form, long form, live video. And then you talk about one to one. So you know, one too one to me, and I've gotten some flat from this, but to me one too one was an idea of one brand creating one message for one individual. But I think we need to really think about as human to human. How do we connect one human to another human and do so at scale? And the definition of personal for me in the future isn't personalized. It's not how personalized, how customized can I make a mass experience to an individual? It's how human cannot deliver that, how personal cannot deliver that experience. So you know, if it is one individual creating a video and setting it to another, that is one piece for one individual. That is one human talking to another instantly. Consumable, instantly engaging. Yeah, and I think it's going to be a new format. It is a new format already. I'm in videos, very engaging. We like videos. So you know, yeah, I'm all pro on video. I have been for a long time and I think, you know, as time moves on, we're going to use video more and more just because it's easy. You know. Yeah, I love that you drive the distinction between one to one and human to human or or you know, this idea that, yeah, because it speaks to and I love to use the language around Purson. I the line that I drew. I wrote a blog post maybe two or three years ago about personal versus personalized in the context of video, and...

...this idea that to me, personalized is dear first name, because you addtion with like a product name. Yeah, yeah, it's just, you know, variable stuff versus truly personal is. Hey, matt, I just so appreciate your time. You know, in our conversation today you made me think about this thing that I had read about, I'd read your work on it, I'd heard you speak about it, but I think about a completely differently now and just so value it right this, this truly personal experience is not a variable data slug. And it's interesting because, you know, the other background theme on it is scalable versus unscalable. I think a lot of people look at it they say, Oh, this doesn't scale, and then it just begs this. It begs your original question. I like, is it better if you make it slightly, slightly, incrementally better by inserting better variables into these things? Versus, can you create a truly personal experience? And what is the value of that, especially in the face of all this noise? Yeah, no, and I totally agree. In scale is the big thing and that's why. So one of the foundational element is is a technological foundation for context marking, for all marking in the future. Without technology, there is no way to scale these concepts or ideas. Right, with technology we know exactly who to talk to, what human connect with them, whether that's an employee and advocate, a sales personal marketer. Well, we we don't exactly who to connect, what conversation to have and then how to guide them to the next steps. And it becomes a scalable system. Right, we're marketing is no longer we're sitting in board rooms coming up with campaigns to push to the masses. Rather we create webs of systematic automations than we manage these automations which are connecting us right, and that's making the best use of our time. And I think that's the biggest thing is, and you know we haven't talked about this, one word of Agile. That's the other aspect of scale. Right. So it's a technological aspect of what does it take technos technically to skip? There's the other of what changes to our processes have to take on. Well, we have to take on new building processes. I mean, and I think that you know, this is one of the things I love to talk about, is the concept of we were all trained on the assembly line, right. Nineteen was the nineteen eighteen. Henry Ford comes out with the assembly line and that's how we think about building, that's how we structure our organizations and silent organizations, with the building process is the waterfall process or an extrapolation of the assembly line. But now we have instant feedback and so we must move to a new model, which is Agile, which is rapid testing. Right. You know, listen to Morgan Brown, Shawn Ellis, you know growth hacking, you know you. It's rapid innovation. You know, this is what we're talking about, and so I think that's the other aspect of scale. It's in most two combinations have to happen together and then these things become possible. Right then, we're not looking, we're no longer saying, all right, how do we just, you know, create the right message? Is the right person the right time? It's, you know, how do we connect the right human to have the correct experience, to produce a correct experience in contact for that moment? And I think that's where we have to go. I love it. It's just bridging it to the truly personal moments. It's it's using technology and processes to put people to be in their best position to be of highest value doing things that machines can do, and you let the machines do all the things that machines do best. Sales Force, you've been there for quite a while. How do you like? You start as an evangelist. Your principle of marketing insight. It's like, what is your Daytoday, week till week, month to month, relationship to, you know, the sales force mothership, like, how do you plug in? Are you just a man about the world whose work is supported by sales force. Like, what's the working relationship there for cool job, yeah, some job, by the way. Yeah, yeah, totally, I agree. Thank you. Yeah, so, actually started out in sales for a little start up called part ot and I was the second salesperson employeed thirteen we grew that company up. We got a choir back that target then acquired by sales for side transition into the thought leadership rolled during that process just to get that decide. I really was passionate about so plugging in. So I really am mutilize in a couple of different ways, as a lot of us are utilize. You know, it's customer meetings, it's going in and talking with large brands, talking about what their future looks like,... a presentation to them, you know, doing customer dinners, helping with research, as well as the third party speaking engagements in evangelizing the brand on stage all across the world. Right. So people really see us as either not just the technology provider, they're also someone who is at the forefront of the field that they're, you know, up selling to so that we can produce you know really, you know, far leading future, leading thoughts and help guide businesses forward, not just by the technology that we create but also, you know, the theory that they need to utilize to succeed with. Yeah, I I was in a session at dream force with a couple researchers who were working on essentially future of work, which made me think about you and like how many of you different topic areas are there inside an organization like sales force? It's hard to count, you know, when you start getting into I have a team. I sit on the market strategy teams. I'm not tied to an actual cloud product. I'm a side, separate entity. But then each products have their own evangelists, have their own research, you know. So we have a very distributed across the organization. But all my team, there's probably about ten of us, each has a different role. So we know IOT future of work, voice, the customer, sales and marketing. You've got a bunch of different ones that rolled up into that kind and I really focus on the future of marketing. Awesome and it shows you're doing a lot of great work around it's really fun and interesting. Last question, another linkedin post of yours. This is just interesting to me and highly consequential and it seems very relevant to people who maybe haven't noticed, but you know that that chrome is planning to kill off third party cookies by two thousand and twenty two. Yeah, what? What? What do you think is the motivation and what are the implications? I mean the motivations easy, if they don't do it, there's going to be government regulation that's going to regulate them to do it anyways. So I mean that it's they're just trying to get ahead of the boat, right. So that's why they're doing it. Right, privacy, individual privacy, customer privacy. Third party cookies really aren't great for individual privacy. been a lot of the people who created the Internet believe that they've gone round, they've run the MAK and we've used them to really do the consumer and disservice to the pretty much everyone's going away with them. So, you know, five years out we should really be thinking about a post third party cookie world. That doesn't mean post first and second, it means post third. So we're going to figure out new ways of attribution, new ways of purporting, new ways of tracking, new ways and engagement. But the good news is that it's longest. You know, a lot of those things were just for, you know, Third Party advertising, programmatic advis retargeting and then the attribution of those things. So, you know, just going to be a new world and I think you know that's really when, if you double down on contact in that notion, right, move passes. I can push button and advertise to anybody. So now we need to really focus on how do we connect one human to another human and do so and first and second party ways. We're really going to build a much stronger and more durable brand with better data. That's, you know, regulation proof for you know, zero first and second party data is regulation proof. You know, we have permission to use that, which one skin put permission at the forefront. You know, when we do ask for permission, we build a different type of trust. We build a deeper trust for our individuals and helps us break through. So yeah, so you know, it's a PRONOCON right. So we're not going to be able to do the same things that used to do, but I think will be better for everybody moving forward. Yeah, so good. I just had a flash there of how how long ago Seth Gones Permission Marketing was written, but how far we have not come in some ways against it. You know, just the spirit of it in general, and so it's interesting, as I think it is. I think about good brands and good product, services and experience. It really it just a lot of it comes down to being a great human being that other people want to be around. It's like those qualities or the qualities you want to provide such that you people are attracted to you and they feel good around you and they feel good about themselves. And Yeah, it's good. Thanks for that passage. Hey Man, this has been awesome. I really appreciate the work that you're doing a enjoy you personally and before we go, I want to give you the chance to bring to life one of our core values... at bombomb, which is relationships. And so I like to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and to give a nod to a brand or a company that you really appreciate for the experience they provide for you as a customer. All right, yeah, so first I'd like to give a shout out to DOC searles. You mentioned them earlier, author Clue Trade Manifesto. Doc is definitely been very helpful either. Reach out to is definitely helped guide me. Helps a lot with the book and the in terms of, you know, just questions and just someone that's been great. I love the work that he produces. He's an awesome human and he's definitely helped me out a lot. So shout out to dock. And then a company I highly respect and I think create a great customer experience for me as well as others, is with you. They're probably one of my favorites. I've known them personally for going on ten years. I'll always love the individuals if they hire, the culture that they put together, the marketing that they put out, the software that they create a and the experience just in general of everything that they do. It's very unique, very specific and it's a great example of how culture and how leadership really does create a culture and if it's not at the executive level, it's very difficult to create such a positive and unique culture inside of organization if the executives don't have it. So that was that. I'll go with those two awesome and that's a reflection of another kind of background theme on the show, which is that a great employee experience begets or is a necessary precursor to a great customer experience, and culture is one of the words that kind of capture some of that essence. We already talked about pre ordering the context marketing revolution on Amazon. I mentioned your someone great to follow on Linkedin. How else could someone follow up with you and your work if you're if people enjoyed this conversation, they like the ideas, they want to go deeper, where would you send people? Yes, I mean two things. One is make sure either follow me on linked in or twitter. I published their on a pretty weekly basis. If you haven't listened to the podcast and want to kind of get a jump on what the book talks about, it say make sure you listen to the electronic propaganda society and then definitely please pre order the book. I think you'll enjoy it. And really the goal is that to really help marketers. Not necessarily help marketers as much, but help markers make the case to their executives of why we must change you go down this different path, and that's really the focus of the book is to help you have the firepower to make these changes internally in your organization. Really good because it's big, it's scary, it's revolutionary, and so I think being better informed, better equipped to make these arguments and to make these observations internally and even collaborating across teams and building consensus around some of these ideas. So I hope the book delivers on your mission, because I think we'll be enjoying our lives and businesses a little bit more when we start moving more in that direction. Thanks so much for your time today, Matt. Really really enjoyed it and hope you have a great week of since they so much for the chance. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom podcasts,.

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