The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

63. Creating Fans Through Human Connection w/ David Meerman Scott


If you’re looking to grow your business, then having a raving fan base can help you get you there. Passion is contagious, and they are passionate about what you have to offer.

So, as your fandom flourishes, so will your company.

To accomplish this, you have to give people an experience they’ll always remember – one built on human connection. And that’s hard to do.

But you can’t have truly invested fans without it.

Fortunately, our guest on this episode of The Customer Experience Podcast, David Meerman Scott, knows a thing or two about what it takes to create a solid company fanbase.

Reasons to Listen:

  • Why real (not virtual) human connection is vital to business success
  • What the underpinnings of Fanocracy consist of
  • Why giving things away for free is beneficial to making more fans
  • How to increase face-to-face proximity with current and potential fans through video
  • When data obsession gets in the way of human connection

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

This is a powerful way to grow fans ofa business, create a youtube channel and do videos that drive people intoyour business and then use services like Bombom to communicate to people. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host eaten Beaute, our deep need for human connection, thecontagiousness of passion, a healthy blend of art and science, that Dehumanizing effects of automation and data obsession a need to relinquishcontrol over your product in your brand and turn it over to your fans. Thesethenes are important to me, they're important to customer experience andtheire foundational to the work of today's guest he's a Keynote Speaker:Marketing Strategist Entrepreneur, startup advisor VC partner in thebestselling author of eleven books, including classics like the new rulesof marketing at PR, which is, in its sixth edition, closing in on half amillion copies sold andprinted in dozens of languages, a Smart Passion,project, marketing lessons from the grateful dead with hub spot, CEO, BrianHalligan and his latest book, which I highly recommend fanacracy turning fansinto customers and customers into fans, David Merman, Scott, welcome to thecustomer experience podcast. Thank you. Ethan. I've done over a hundredpodcasts in the last twelve months, and that was by far the best introduction.So I appreciate that that is really kind. I just I'm really happy to haveyou here. I love your work. I've read several of your books and, and thislatest one fanacracy is just it's fun. To read it's easy to read, and I reallythink it taps into. This is obviously the theme of new rules and and realtime, marketing and PR as well. It just really taps into the state of affairswith the level of clarity that you don't find often right. It's a blend oftheory and tactics and really tapped into the moment. I feel thank you. Thank youvery much for saying that, because that's actually exactly what I wantedto do and what I have been able to do in the past, and I think that now thatwe're starting a new decade, the decade of the thousand and Weis, I think we'rein a new moment. The promise of social media has always been. You know,UNICORNS and rainbows, and communicating with people and everyoneloves one another. But that's not the reality today. The reality is a can bea very dark and cold place for many people, there's pholarizationeverywhere. The social networks themselves used to be optimized forcommunicating with your friends, are now optimized for profit, and thenyou've got th the whole political world on social networks, which is, you know,just a dangerous zone for everybody involved. So I wanted to look at what'snext and to me true human connection. I mean it's notthat it's not that it's new we've always had it. It's always been animportant part of customer experience. But true human connection is what Ithink will be driving success in the WO thusand Andis. I completely agree, andyou use language around it- that I use in describing some of the work that wedo, which is his pendulum swing back away from a lot of the stuff. That'scome up and some of the stuff you refer to. So I'm going to ask you to findcustomer experience, but prior to that, I'm going to ask a more personalquestion just to warm it up and I'm going to ask you a little bit aboutparenting. So congratulations to you and your wife, because your daughterRico completed a neuroscience degree of Columbia, she's working on her medicaldegree at Boston, university, school and medicine, she's, an accomplishedwriter and she coauthored fanacracy with you. So you know based on theresearch in fanocracy, you point to...

Fandom, starting in adolescence, and sobefore we get going on. Customer experience and fanacracy I'd loved foryou to talk briefly about your journey is a parent helping your daughter,discover, explor and kind of live out. These passions because seems likeyou've done a very good job. Oh thank you for that and she's a better writerthan me too, as you as you know, because you readthe book we we originally and you don't know thispart. We originally wanted to create one voice. So we were co authors and wecreated a unified voice that brought us together. It just wasn't working, itwas too generic, so we ended up writing individual chapters. I wrote about halfshe wrote about half and we let our own voices shine through, and we actuallysay you know Chapter Three by David Chapter, four by Rico and in it workedout great because her voice shines through in that way and being amillennial mixed race, woman, neuro scientist who loves Harry Potter, isreally different than being a middle aged white guy who loves, live music,especially the grateful dead. So we were able to really have differentperspectives, but you know we only have one child. My wife and I and we were focused from the very beginningand treating always having her with us. We only had a babysitter once one timein our entire lives when she was young, we decided to go to a Madonna concertand we had a babysitter, but otherwise we took her everywhere everywhere. Youknow, and she was three years old. She went to the restaurant. She was fouryears old. She went to the play Becaus, we exposed her to many different thingsand then let her make decisions as soon as she was able. So as soon as she wasable to choose which restaurant to go to assuse what she was able to choose,what play to go to choose what movie to see what book to read that were thosewere her decisions and she made choices that were right forher and we never second guessed those choices, andif she would do something a little bit odd and get into a little bit oftrouble whet. That was her choice, a d then she had to dial back from it. Soso she's really doing some wonderful things in her career. She's going to begraduating from medical school in May and then we'll be embarking on herresidency program and emergency medicine and doing so as a Wall StreetJournal bestselling author. So that's kind of awesome, so cool! That's sogreat! Congratulations to all three of you! So, let's move into customerexperience when I say that what does it mean to you? So I think of customerexperience is everything that's sort of outside of the product and serviceitself, and so how does the organization treat you as a person?What are the the intangibles that go along with the delivery of thatproactor service? You know what are what are the the overall ways that anorganization engages with you as a customer when you're a customer, butalso as you're evaluating a particular practor service and Han? In fact, justbefore we got on the phone, I had an opportunity to contact the Wall StreetJournal because I wanted to cancel my digital subscription and you know whenyou can sell a product, that's customer experience and I'm I'mhappy to say they did a good job with my cancullation. They did try to keepyou, but they weren't obnoxious about it. Yeah, it's a careful balance there,especially at that point of exit and in the fact of the matter is you might beback one day. You know y your situation, Tay might change, and I told the repthat when I was younger, I subscribe to the print publication and I was justtrying the digital publication several decades later and who knows: Mat you'reright, maybe I'll come back yeah and so it versus you know, burning you on theway out and you're like okay, I'm done yeah, that's right! So for folks thataren't familiar. Could you give a just...

...a definition of fanacracy when you knowthe subtitle in part speaks for itself, but yo no just give a little definitionto fanacracy because obviously it'll be part of you know the ungoingconversation here, yeah sure so it's Wen fans rule and it's an organizationthat puts me customers and I had of everything that it doesit's an organization and a feeling of true humanity, a true human connection. What is that look like in practice? So- and I know that's a huge question,because you befor so many styles of businesses and organizations in thebook I mean for folks who are listening. That sounds awesome right. You know, ifyou're in an organization you want to be more human center and buildcommunity and build true fandom and you can but the thing one of the thingsmany things I enjoyed about the book. It's just a range of examples in therfrom you know: Corinsurance to government agencies, btbbtc everything,batteria batteries, Batteri STIRSO batteries yeah. So we went into the book five years ago,Raker's twenty six. Now so isses twenty one at the time- and we went into thisidea of the fact that she- and I are both passionate about a few things- I'mincredibly passionate about live music. I've done, I went to been to sevenhundred and ninety live shows, including seventy five grateful deadconcerts and I've got a grateful, dead, Rall of fame in my office. I own agreat a road case that was used in eight hundred and fifty concerts by thegrateful dead. So I'm I'm a Dialeden Fan and my daughter Rako is really intoHarry Potter. Not only is she read every Book Seen Ery Movie MultipleTimes she wrote an eighty five thousand word: Alternatie Vendin to the HarryPotter series, where Dracel malfoys a spy for the order of the Phoenix putdown o fan fiction site. It's been downloaded thousands and thousands oftimes commentend on hundreds of times, so we entered this project as fans ofthe things that we love and our thesis was that any organization, any company,any progers idea can build fans. That was our thesis and we've proven that tobe absolutely correct and one of the my favorite examples of that is hagardyinsurance and they do automobile insurance and I've asked thousands ofpeople in my presentations around the world in multiple countries. How manypeople love auto insurance and nobody ever raises their hand? It's a terribleproduct. Nobody wants to buy it. You know when you put it on your creditcard, you writ that check, it's no fun at all and furthermore, no one wants touse the product because hole. You've, crashed your car Al Right, Sot, aterrible thing- and so I was talking to the CEO of Haggardy insurance is name,is mckil Hagardes, the entrepreneurial founder and CEO of the of the companyand he's, and they do classic car. Auto Insurance Ne Says David, everyone hatesmy product, my product sucks. So I can't market the way everybody elsedoes I can't become the low cost provider. I don't want to do that. Idon't want to out outstend on advertising. I can't compete with thegeckoes of the world, so he said we're going to go out and specifically setout to build fans and so he's developing a human connection withpotential and existing customers. So initially what they did was they wentto classic car shows around the North America hundreds a year, he and hispeople and they would meet with people who love classic cars, so they'retaking existing fans of classic cars...

...and then connecting with those peopleas a likeminded part of that tribe of enthusiasts, and then that developedsome people who then joined their their company as customers, and then theycriatit drivers club to bring different owners of classic cars together in in aboth a virtual and and a physical way. They created evaluations reports sousing their data for how much they're insuring cars. For how much is your carworth and they have now an incredible amount of data that practically anyclassic car. You can get a valuation for and all of the end of a youtubechannel with over a million subscribers. But all of these things have developeda human connection, a true human connection with with a potential andexisting customers where the Hagardy is now has a fand them of their own. Theyhave hundreds of thousands of people who are fans of them, including me, andI actually got a a card from them. It arrived several days ago. I've got itright here and it's my fifteenth anniversary card. I've been a customwowey. I've been a customer of Haggardy for fifteen years now they enture o onethousand nine hundred and seventy three Land Rover, and they sent me ananniversary card thanking for me for their for my business on there, youknow theyre, being a customer of their insurance company and mckill Haggardy,told me David, we're crushing it were now the largest classic car ensure inthe entire world we're going to grow by two hundred thousand new customers.This year everybody loves what we do and it all bilt on Phantom. It's allbuilt on a human relationship that develops into people who become fans ofa company that sells a product that everybody hates love it, and it really.I mean that examples so good. It speaks to the subtitle of the book, which isturning fans into customers and customers, indto fans, and so this ideathat, by approaching I love the way that you positione what mckeil wantedto do there, which is, I want to create fans and it wasn't. I want to turn mycustomers into fans. It's I want to create something that people can befanatical about, connect people together and by the way some of themare going to become customers, and some of the customers are going toparticipate in the FANDOM, so it really speaks to that give and take andworking both sides of it. You're not just trying to take typically whenpeople think about this, it's take a customer and turn them into an advocateor a fan or whatever you want to call. So I love this. This idea of buildingthat in Upfront so folks that are listening if you have not visitedBombombcom podcast you're missing out on video clips of these conversations-and I just got a really nice tour of of David's grateful dead collection on hiswall as well as that travel box and the card from haggardy. So if you want tosee some of the stuff that were talking about to see the guess, I'm putting itall up in blog postat, bombomcom, slash podcast. So speaking of the gratefuldead, I feel like this book is kind of a natural extension of marketinglessons from the grateful debt and that you know picks up the lessons itexpands on them. And again, as I already said, it illustrates the someof the ideas with a much broader range of companies, organizations fandomthings that we can connect to. What d you say: That's fair, yeah, absolutelyand that book marketing. Lessons from the grateful dead came out about adecade ago, so Brian Hell Hallegan who's, the C of hub spot, and I wrotethat together and Bill Walt on the Mba Basketball Hall of Famer work. Theforward to our book, and so we were Expryang and I were exploring the ideasof how did the grateful dead, build fans and can the ideas about how thegreateful dead built fans be applied to other businesses and the answers? Yes,so you're abbt Yo're very perceptive in asking me that, because indeed, havingalready written one book about this idea of growing fans- and in that casevery specifically using t, the...

...techniques of the Great Fadett didhelped me to give a much broader thought to fand him in general and thenbring my daughter in Reco as a very different person, O mixbress Milleniawoman, to figure out how this can apply to all different kinds of people incultures and ideas and products and services, and one of the things thatgrateful dead did. That is so was so unique. Still as so unique as, unlikeevery other band. The grateful dead allowed fans to record concerts, sofans could bring in professional level recording here and the the gratefuldeat actually gave them a special place that they could go to right behind themixing board. They even had power strips you could plug into, I mean itwas, and you could you could put your microphones up in the air on stands. Imean they. Let they really let you go to town and record the shows, and theonly rule was that you can't sell the resulting recordings, but people could freely trade initially in theearly days it was cassette tapes. Then it became MP, three finals, you couldtrade, the tapes you could give them away as long as you don't sell them,and that then generated an incredible passion for people who listen to thegrateful dead in these freely recorded initially to cosette tapes in him. ThenMP, three files, and then they would say you know what this is great. I wantto go to a grateful bid, concert to or I want to buy a studio album too andthat actually created one of the most popular touring bands in Americanhistory and even now, twenty five years after Jerry Garcia, died, t thesurviving members of the grateful debt are still touring dead and company withJohn Mayor and the Jery Garciarole is still touring and I'm still going. Iwent in two thousand and nineteen I went to seven concerts, wow and thetickets are expensive. I've probably spent four or five ousand dollars intwo thousand and nineteen on the grateful bed, and it all goes back towhen I was a teenager, and I heard music coming out of my friend's stereosystem and that got me hooked on the band and this idea of giving somethingaway completely free without any expectation of anything in return, isone of the chapters in fanacracy and any organization can do that. So we have a cool example of durisel batteries and what duriseldoes is they have a something called the power forward program where, when,when there's a natural disaster, hurricane flood fire, something likethat and power goes out, they have a fleet of trucks that go to the placewhere the power outage is to give away free. Durisel batteries absolutely noobligation, nothing an exexpectation of anything in return. They just give awayfree batteries when people need them now. What's interesting about this isthis is when batteries are in the most demand they could price gouge. You knowpeople are willing to pay five ten dollars for a pack of batteries thatare normally twos and ninety five cents, but Duriso doesn't do that. They justgive them away for free, and that good will is something that people rememberfor many years. They tell their friends, they tell their colleagues. What I see,though, are way too many organizations, especially vtb companies, doing theopposite. What a typical B to be company does, is they create a whitepaper or an ebook or some other piece of content, and rather than give itaway for free with no no expectation of anything in return, like the gratefuldead, an Durocel, they slap with a requirement that you have to give anemail address in order to get that white paper or ebook or other piece ofonline content that sets up an adversarial relationpinship. It's not agood way to build fans, because what you're doing is you're saying: Oh, no n!No, I'm not going to give you anything.

Unless you give me something first yeahyou must get. You must give me your email address before I'll, give you mywhite paper and that's an that's an adversarial relationship, a it's abusiness contract if you will, rather than giving away something for free. SoI recommend that people take a page out of the grateful deadplaybook or thedurisel playbook and make that white paper or Ebo completely and totallyfree with no registration at all, because that's what will allow yourcontent to spread and that w ill? That's? What will help you to buildfans? I love it so ungate that content for starters, don't prace scout justbecause you can right respect people as humans. I really appreciated that youspecifically named artists that protect the price integrity of tickets to live,shows, like you name like eight or ten of them, and because there's so manybands and of course, some of the venue owners and its all at this point,conglomerated that are you know you wind up the tickets go on sale at ten,am by ten a one. It's completely sold out, and you know two thirds of thevenue is now marked up at you know four hundred percent of the original ticketprice, and so I appreciate that you called out folks that are intentionallydoing the opposite of that and welcoming people in it at acceptable, inappropriate prices and,and what that that's all about it's a different chapter that chapter we'retalking about transparency and telling the truth is that you know it's areally big part of customer experience. To always tell the truth, isn't itAything, I mean so many companies hide behind. You know legalees or they makean excuse for something that goes wrong or in this example of tickets theyblame the venue or they blame ticket master or the other ticketing systemsfor for what's going on and fans, customershave a horrible experience buying tickets. You know you want to go to thebig concert you want to go see whatever band. It is, and you go to the you goto the ticketing system at ten Ama, as you said, and all of a sudden, all thetickets are gone, but you go into stubhub and there's thousands andthousands of tickets of the same show that you couldn't get on the primarymarket available at a huge markup on the secondary market. It's reallydisconcerting and it's a horrible horrible customer experience. So whatwhat some bands, the rolling stones, Jack, white and there's a bunch ofother ones have done. Eis they've figured out different ways to make it way more transparent and waymore honest and give the true fan an opportunity to buy tickets on theprimary market, and it turns out that fans don't have a problem with a highlyprice ticket. You know if you have to pay four hundred dollars for a goodseat to the rolling stones. Fans, understand that and- and you know, ifyou're willing to pay it, you want to pay it to the band not to some scalper.So these bands have figured out ways to sell directly to you and if you want topay, that's fine, it's kind of like when you buy airline seats. You know ifyou want to spend the big bucks to sit in business class. Well, you knowyou're going to pay more. If you want to spend less money, you can sit in theback and the same thing's true of sitting in a rolling stone show youknow, want to pay a little bit extra or a lot extra. You can be upfront ifyou're not willing to pay the extra you're going to be in the back, and so this idea of transparency andhonesty as an really important aspect of fandom and a really important aspectof customer experience is something that we can all work on and it's fairlysimple yeah. I think honesty and...

...transparency, of course, are part ofthe trust building process. When you have trust establish is one we can be alittle bit more vulnerable with each other and when we can be a little bitvulnerable with each other is how we build real, true human connection,which kind of ses there's so many places I want to go. I just love thematerial, but where I want to go next is is around that human connection,because a lot of the work that we do here at Bombab, we make it really easyto record and send lightweight videos in place of faceless digitalcommunication. Ro mailes text messages, social messages, and you have somereally cool research in the book about face to face communication,physical proximity, and it has implications for video to so I'd, love.Eto Do would crify on that proximity layer and how it translates eventhrough the screen. No, it's incredibly important and I believe it's soimportant that Bombam is just going to do so well going forward, because whatwe did was my daughter. Raco did a neuro science to undergraduateneuroscince degree at Colombia University and, as we were talkingabout this idea of Fanda, one of the things that we really wanted to do wasdig into what's actually going on on our brains when we become a fan ofsomething what's happening, and we wanted to be able to talk about that inthe book and figure out whether that leads to any prescriptions. The answeras it does so, we spoke with a number of different important neuroscientistsabout what's happening in our brains, and it turns out that all of us arehard wired to feel safe and comfortable within our own tribe of people. Andthis goes back. You know tens and tens of thousands of years, because, ifyou're within your tribe, you're, safe and comfortable, if you're, outside ofyour tribe, you're vulnerable to attack, we modern humans can't help. The factthat we're still concerned about that- and so it turns out the closer you getto somebody physically, the more powerful the shared emotions, eitherpositive or negative one narrow scientist name, Edward t hall, actuallyidentify different levels of proximity further than about twelve feet away. isHe called public space and in public space we humans know the people arefurther than twelve feet away from us. We understand that, but we don't yetbegin to track them in our subconscious. Once people get within about twelvefeet, that's called social space inside of twelve feet to about four feet. Wetrack the people that get into our social space. So if you walk into acrowded room, you can't help the fact that you're you're scanning peoplewithin about twelve feet to find out is there. Anybody here I know, is thereanybody here from my tribe? Is there danger here, and so this is why, whenyou walk into a room with your friends, you feel great, and when you walk intoa crowded elevator, you feel nervous. You can't help that that's hard wiredinto our brain and then inside of four feet is called personal space. That'slike cocktail party distance or when close friends are together, maybe overan intimate kmeal that kind of thing even more powerful connections. So whatthis means for us to grow fans is, can you figure out ways to get yourcustomers or potential customers into social space or even personal space ofyou and your employees or even better? Can you get your customers into thesocial andpersonal space of other customers? So this is why a physicalevent a customer event. You know your client conference, your sales kick off.These things are really important in a world of digital communications. Havingthos physical events are are amazingly important and I I speak all over theworld at customer events, and many of them are love fests. You know whereyou've got thousands or even tens of...

...thousands of people that converge on acity, and it's and it's fans of that company getting together, reallypowerful stuff, well worth the investment, even if you're losing moneyon ticket sales. But then some people say well David. You know we can't dothose physical events or clanch all over the world, or we run a virtualbusiness or whatever it is, and that's where video services like Bombom, aswell as things like youtube for providing marketing videos incredibly powerful, because itturns out through something called Mirror Nurons, which are the part ofour brains that fire. When we see or even just hear somebody doing,something can be very applicable when it comes to video, because the virtualproximity found on a video camera is really powerful and I'm going todemonstrate that now so here's another clip that might go on your your sight.I've got a lemon in one hand and a slice of lemon in another hand. Now, ifI take a bite of this slice of lemon wow, it's really powerful to take abite of a slice of lemon right. My eyes close and scrunch up. My mouth startsto water. It's my mouth puckers up a little bit. I mean powerful thing tobite into a lemon and just by seeing the SEATHON, I bet you're feeling somelemon too yeah. I fellat, I felt a little Pollin in the front of my mouthas Oeie. I know it's weird right and even people who aren't seeing the videoclip but ar h just hearing me talk about it are probably tasting a littlebit of lemon. So this is the concept of Mera neurons, because your brain isfiring as if you took the bite of Lemon yourself. Here's where that that Papplies to video when you watch a video of people cropped as if you're inpersonal space, so abofour feet away. Looking directly at the camera, peoplethink ther r people intellectually know they're just on a camera, I'm notactually in the same room but you're subconscious. Your mere a neurons tellyou that you're actually in close physical proximity ore in the personalspace of the person who's on the screen. This is precisely why we feel we knowmovie stars, even though we've never met that movie star and intellectually,we know they're just an image on a screen. We feel you know them. So thisis a powerful way to grow fans of a business, create a youtube channel anddo videos that drive people into your business and then use services likeBombom to communicate to people using video, because that's an incrediblypowerful way to build fans by establishing a virtual, close proximityto existing in potential customers. I love it that psychological proximity issuch a big deal like it's easy for us to quantify things when we've done itthrough surveys and mountains of Anic dotes and things like I get morereplies and responses. I get more clicks through my emails. I convertleads at a higher rate. I can stay in touch more effectively and all theseother, you know kind of quantifiable benefits, but this other side of it. Wehear all the time, but it's hard to put a number to and one of the most commonthings I hear from people that use our service. Offan is people feel like theyknow me before they ever meet me and that's exactly what you're talkingabout it's a really interesting dynamic, and I get that reply myself and it'srooted in Neuro, science and that's what's so fascinating to me about isthat this is real stuff. This is not just like you know, partgetting materials from Bombon. Thisis a real stuff. You know it's really rooted in neuroscience. Some evidencethat we've found, which is so interesting, is that the average socialmedia post that includes video crop if you're looking at the camera crope asif it's four feet away or photographs...

...looking at a camera as if it's aboutfour feet away and by the way that includes I selfie, because your arm isabout four feet long. So, if you're doing a selfie right, you're inpersonal space with that camera, those posts, video and photographs included,get way more social interaction than posts that are just text or images thatare not of people. So there's all kinds of evidence that this concept aroundneuroscience of proximity- virtual proximity- is true. I want to go intosomething that was that can be that you just kind of did a drive by on,but I think it's worth mentioning think a lot of people when we're having thiscustomer experience conversation. We talk about the relationship of companyO customer or Employee Tho customer, but w what it is running throughoutfanacracy and in your one of your last responses. Is it's not just company tocustomer or employee to customer it's customer to customer and its employeeto employee, and that- and I thought about that to is you're talking abouthonesty and transparency. It's, like you know what kind of company do youwant to work for, one that you can respect, because it's honest andtransparent or or not, and so talk a little bit about this- give and takeall the way around for like a holistic fanocracy, it includes those threestakeholders and more yeah. So one of the things that was kind of surprisingto us is that once we started talking to people over the last five yearsabout fans fanom and what they're a fan of and and just the idea of how and whypeople become fans, people would wright up because P everybody loves to talkabout the thing they're passionate about, and it turns out that passion isinfectious when you're passionate about something that passion shines throughand the the person that you're speaking with, does not have to share the samepassion as you do, and this is why sometimes, that people who are fans ofrival sports teams can have really good strong relationships because theyrecognize in each other. That, even though I love the red socks and youlove the Yankees, for example, you're both passionate about baseball and youcan both understand that passion, and so this becomes a really importantconcept around fanaucracy. That passion is infectious. It leads to. How do youhire the right people? People who are already have passion in their life forsomething are much more likely to be passionate about you and your brand andyour business and share that passion with customers. When you bringcustomers together, who are passionate about your brand, they share the factthat they're passionate about what you do about your company, about what youdo, and that is something that then that passion goes both ways, and sothese things are all really really important and, I think, very oftenoverlooked. Another thing that's overlooked, which we found to be reallycool, is that people who share their private passions and their professionallife generate way more engagement than those who don't and we found a dentist,as name is Dr John Merashi and Dr Mirashi came to me about two years agoand said you know David, I'm a dentist in southern California, there's tens ofthousands of dentists in southern California. You know how can I standout when we all have the same websites? We all show pictures of dirty crookedteeth, turning into straight white teeth. How can I stand out and we juststarted to talk about what we're passionate about and doctor Mirashe ispassionate about. Skateboardin he's also passionate about Botoch, and Isaid well, that's it mean, let's just like focus on that, Dr Marashi, so hedid he sort of doubled down on this...

...idea of skateboarding and bow ties. Sohe normally wears bow ties and he's got a his white. Like cartle lapcoat thing,dentist coat on D he's got skateboards in his office hanging on the walls. Heskapedboards from one examination room to another, his instagram, which, bythe way, has more than thirteen thousand followers a dentist with morethan thirteen thousand followers he's got a whole bunch of photographs andeven some video of him skateboarding. Sometimes he skateboarding wearing aboat tie and what he told me was just this idea of shocating showcasing whathe's passionate about in his personal life. Skateboardin has nothing to dowith dentistry, but but what a cool customer experience to say. My dentistis a great skateboarder. My dentist loves Thi Skateboard and he told methat he's grown his business by thirty percent a year. Just by talking about the fact thathe's in the skateboard and showing that, when he's in his office and and havingthe instagram focus on the skateboard, there's so much good stuff going onthere, and I think vulnerability is part of it. This idea that this dentist,who you know two three decades ago, was supposed to act as if I'm supposed toact as if I'm this, you know all put together dentist that conforms towhatever the image of a dentist is, and this idea of, like this comfort ofbeing yourself, is fundamentally attractive to other people and again toyour point, it doesn't matter. If I love Skateboarding, I love the factthat he loves what he loves and he wears it on his sleeve and he is who heiagoing exactly and then so you have a choice. What's behind you in the in theoffice? Is it all of your wonderful dental degrees? That's exactly whatevery other dentist does wore. Is it a couple of skateboards or pictures ofyou skateboarding, I mean to me the difference is clear and to meI know what I would sign up for s long as Hes a good dentist I'dmuch ratherhave the skateboarder n than the the button down all business. I went toHarvard Guy Totally you've been super generous with your time. I want to askyou, or at least get your response to a few quotes from the book that are allkind of around a theme before we get to our standard clothes is that is thatokayor? It sounds good, okay, cool, so there's an underlying theme in the book.It's been kind of at the tip of the conversation as we've gone and I'vebeen thinking about it. A lot which is all of this is just how we make peoplefeel like that's what this is all about. So I want to read a few quotes and justget your get your reaction to it. A fandom business is human centered.Instead of data obsessed, a number can be a ceiling. If a person is toofocused on it and it alone, we see many consumers becoming more and moredistant from brands that rely entirely on automated processes and what I'mgetting here is, like the data obsession, focus on numbers, automationversus human centered and focusing on the process, not just the outcome likewhat is the role of feeling and all of this to you and and and what kind ofpushback have you gotten about quantification of these things that aredifficult to quantify? Yeah, good googood series of questions,so I think you're right that this is very much the human connection. It isvery much of feeling I mean you know your theme and what this podcast isabout. It's a customer experience and that's not to say that you don't usedata that you don't use technology. You certainly can you may remember one ofthe stories in the book that I absolutely love is a company called me undes and they'rean underware subscription company, so it's completely data driven in thesense that they sell underwear and you... a subscription. So you get a newpair of underwearr every month, and so it's highly data driven in that onceyou subscribe, you know they got to take your credit card every month. Theyhave to send you a link to the available underware that you can choosefor that particular month. They know your size, they know which style youlike, whether its boxes or briefs or whatever it is, and so very very, verydata driven on the backend, but that's just to drive the humanity because theylove sharing customer stories. They love sharing photos of their customersin their underwear. They have video of their customers in their underwear andthey have just a fun vibe. You know ttheir tag line. Is Ten million happybutts an going strong? I mean that's just fun and human and interesting, soI don't think it's Dhen either or, but I do think that so many companies areonly obsessed with numbers and not obsessed with the humanity of it, and Ithink in our world, where there's so much more data, I mean you log intoNetflix or whatever video service you use and it's so data driven that youdon't see films outside of the ones that are similar to what you've seen inthe past. I think that's wrong. I think that, yes, you should be able to seefilms similar to what you have, but that should be a choice. It shouldn'tbe that you're, that's the default that you can't get away from you know I. I watched a number of documentaries,especiallys, music documentaries. When I first subscribe to Netflex, I can'tget away from them now. Every time I log in a Netflix they're showing me thesame, damn thing and so yeah algorithms are important, but they can't be thesole driver of how an organization communicates with customers. Great response. We will wind down onthat. I appreciate your time so much. It's been, it's been great, it'sabsolute pleasure for me. I hope you've enjoyed yourself, and I know people ofcourse get tons of value out of out of the conversation. I know they will getvalue out of panacracy to and they pick it up and read it. I assume there's anaudio book as well yeah and Rako, and I read the audio book ASE, so there'salready a book, an Ebook format, if you're into that and then good oldfashioned, hard cover, love it and the book the Book Premieri is a WallsteetJournal, best saller. So it's done really well really happy about that.Yeah well deserved before I let you go a couple things. I would love to giveyou the chance to thank or mention someone who's had a positive impact onyour life or your career and to give a shoutout to a company that maybe youhaven't mentioned already, that you really appreciate for the experiencethey deliver for you, as a customer sure. So Tony Robins wrote the forwardto fanaucracy Tony's my friend, I've spoken at Toney Robin's business.Mastery events for six years now between two and four events a yeararound the world- and you know, he's a giant among public speakers and thefact that he has me for two hours on his stage several times a year that hewas willing to write. The forward to my book is He's a true mentorin friend, and Iappreciate that a company I totally admire that has a fabulous customerexperience is called Grain surfpords they make wooden surfboards and forthose of you who are looking on video, there is my grainsurf board that I made.I made that sorfport. So, what's cool about the customer experience there is,you can either buy a wooden surfpord that they make in their factory or youcan go and make the wooden serv fort in their factory with them yourself. Ittakes four days, it's amazing and I mean who does that who allows you intotheir factory to let you make their product with them, and I just love themfor it's called Grain sorffor during...

York Maine, so you can buy a wonderfulwooden, surfport sustainable for the environment beautiful or you could evenmake one yourself yeah. I love it. It's a great story in the book. It is reallyfun to readn. I love the reaction of the folks at grain that were like yeah.We just we just get so fired up when it comes time to have one of these. Youknow customers come in and make boards with US thing. Just again. It justspeaks to the fanacracy and as far as community goes of course,Tony Robins S, you said, is a giant on. I want to give a couple thanks, whichis not something that I always do on the show, but but your appearance herewith me and thank you again so much for your time was triggered and part by aprevious podcast guest Amanthestone, who is kind enough to send me a copy offanacracy signed by both you and your daughter, Ann Hanley and Joseph Jaffyprevious podcast guest here on the customer experience podcast, whose worklike your own David was very, very influential with me at a very importanttime. In my life in career and and a guy named Jaaconzo who said thatvisionaries don't see the future, they see the present much more clearly andthat's how I think of Your Work David, if Wer Giind, oe very kind of you tosay so, that's a cool quote to yeah. It is in a sharp dude if people want tofollow up. We already mentioned the book and the Digital Book in theAudiobook, but if people want to connect with you some other way, wherewould you send them so we've got a really well done site at wwwfanacracycom.There's videos there's infographics that you can downloadimages all sorts of cool stuff there to give you alse all kinds of informationabout fanacracy on ontwitter and instagram. I am DM Scott, that'sDmscott, and if you want to connect with me, I'm linked on please doawesome. Thank you. So much and David by the way for listeners, David ocourse was kind enough to move his camera around frequently throughout theepisode and how find all of those moments and several others and hey'llbe available at bombomcom lh, podcast wre. You can see video clips and getroundups on these episodes. Thank you so much for your time, David and thankyou so much for listening, Thanksheavan, clear communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance,so pick up the official book. Rehumanize your business, how personalvideos, accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in ordertoday at Bombam Com, boock, that's bomb, vombcom fuck! Thanks for listening tothe customer experience. podcast remember the single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers, continue learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribingright now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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