The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

63. Creating Fans Through Human Connection w/ David Meerman Scott

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you’re looking to grow your business, then having a raving fan base can help you get you there. Passion is contagious, and they are passionate about what you have to offer.

So, as your fandom flourishes, so will your company.

To accomplish this, you have to give people an experience they’ll always remember – one built on human connection. And that’s hard to do.

But you can’t have truly invested fans without it.

Fortunately, our guest on this episode of The Customer Experience Podcast, David Meerman Scott, knows a thing or two about what it takes to create a solid company fanbase.

Reasons to Listen:

  • Why real (not virtual) human connection is vital to business success
  • What the underpinnings of Fanocracy consist of
  • Why giving things away for free is beneficial to making more fans
  • How to increase face-to-face proximity with current and potential fans through video
  • When data obsession gets in the way of human connection

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

This is a powerful way to growfans of a business. Create a youtube channel and do videos that drive peopleinto your business, and then you services like bombomb to communicate to people.The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success expertscreate internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal andhuman way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, EthanBeauty. Our deep need for human connection, the contagiousness of passion, a healthyblend of art and science, the dehumanizing effects of automation and data obsession, a need to relinquish control over your product, in your brand and turnit over to your fans. These things are important to me. They're importantto customer experience and their foundational to the work of today's guest. He's akeynote speaker, Marketing Strategist, entrepreneur, start up advisor, VC partner inthe best selling author of eleven books, including classics like the new rules ofmarketing at PR which is in its sixth edition, closing in on half amillion copies. Sold and printed in dozens of languages, a Smart Passion Project. Marketing lessons from the grateful dead with hub spot CEO, Brian Halligan andhis latest book, which I highly recommend, fanocracy, turning fans into customers andcustomers into fans. David Merman Scott, welcome to the customer experience podcast.Thank you, Ethan. I've done over a hundred podcasts in the lasttwelve months and that was by far the best introduction, so I appreciate that. That is really kind. I just I'm really happy to have you here. I love your work. I've read several of your books and and thislatest one, Fan accracy, is just it's fun to read, it's easyto read and I really think it taps into and this is obviously the themeof new rules and and real time marketing and PR as well. It justreally taps into the state of affairs with a level of clarity that you don'tfind often rights. It's a blend of theory and tactics and really tapped intothe moment, I feel. Thank you. Thank you very much for saying that, because that's actually exactly what I wanted to do and what I havebeen able to do in the past and I think that now that we're startinga new decade, the decade of the S, I think we're in anew moment. The promise of social media has always been, you know,UNICORNS and rainbows and communicating with people and everyone loves one another, but that'snot the reality today. The reality is a can be a very dark andcold place for many people. There's polarization everywhere. The social networks themselves,used to be optimized for communicating with your friends, are now optimized for profit, and then you've got the the whole political world on social networks, whichis, you know, just a dangerous zone for everybody involved. So Iwanted to look at what's next and to me, true human connection. Imean it's not that it's not that it's new. We've always had it.It's always been an important part of customer experience, but true human connection iswhat I think will be driving success in the S. I completely agree,and you use language around it that I use in describing some of the workthat we do, which is is pendulum swing back away from a lot ofthe stuff that's come up and some of the stuff you refer to. SoI'm going to ask you to find customer experience, but prior to that I'mgoing to ask a more personal question just to warm it up, and I'mgoing to ask you a little bit about parenting. So congratulations to you andyour wife, because your daughter, Reicho, completed a neuroscience degree at Columbia.She's working on her medical degree at Boston University School of Medicine. She'san accomplished writer and she coauthored fan accuracy with you. So you know,based on the Research Infan accuracy, you point to fandom starting and adolescence.And so before we get going on customer...

...experience and Fan Accracy, I'd loveto for you to talk briefly about your journey as a parent helping your daughterdiscover, explore and kind of live out these passions, because it seems likeyou've done a very good job. Oh, thank you for that. And she'sa better writer than me too, as you as you know, becauseyou've read the book. We we originally, and you don't know this part,we originally wanted to create one voice. So we were coauthors and we createda unified voice that brought us together. It just wasn't working. It wastoo generic. So we ended up writing individual chapters. I wrote abouthalf, she wrote about half, and we let our own voices shine throughand we actually say, you know, Chapter Three by David, Chapter Fourby Rico, and it worked out great because her voice shines through in thatway. And being a millennial, mixed race woman, neuro scientist who lovesHarry Potter is really different than being a middle aged white guy who loves livemusic, especially the grateful dead. So we were able to really have differentperspectives. But, you know, we only have one child, my wifeand I, and we were focused from the very beginning and treating always havingher with us. We only had a babysitter once, one time in ourentire lives when she was young, we decide to go to a Madonna concertand we had a babysitter, but otherwise we took her everywhere, everywhere,you know, and she was three years old, she went to the restaurant, she was four years old, she went to the play, because weexposed her to many different things and then let her make decisions as soon asshe was able. So as soon as she was able to choose which restaurantto go to, Susie, she was able to choose what play to goto, choose what movie to see, what book to read. That thosewere her decisions and she made choices that were right for her and we neversecond guess those choices. And if she would do something a little bit oddand get into a little bit of trouble with that was her choice and thenshe had to dial back from it. So so she's really doing some wonderfulthings in her career. She's going to be graduating from medical school and Mayand then we'll be embarking on her residency program and emergency medicine and doing soas a Wall Street Journal best selling author. So that's kind of awesome, socool. That's so great. Congratulations to all three of you. Solet's move into customer experience. When I say that, what does it meanto you? So I think of customer experiences everything that sort of outside ofthe product and service itself. And so how does the organization treat you asa person? What are the the intangibles that go along with the delivery ofthat product or service? You know what are what are the the overall waysthat an organization engages with you as a customer? When you're a customer butalso as you're evaluating a particular productor service. And and in fact, just beforewe get on the phone, I had an opportunity to contact the WallStreet Journal because I wanted to cancel my digital subscription. And you know,when you cancetel a product, that's customer experience and I'm I'm happy to saythey did a good job with my cancelation. They did try to keep me,but they weren't obnoxious about it. Yeah, it's it's a careful balance. They're especially at that point of exit. And in the fact of the matteris, you might be back one day. You know, your situationtoday might change. And I told the REP that when I was younger Isubscribe to the print publication and I was just trying to digital publication several decadeslater, and who knows, me, you're right, maybe I'll come back. Yeah, and so it versus, you know, burning you on theway out and you're like okay, I'm done. Yeah, that's right.So, for folks that aren't familiar,...

...could you give a just a definitionof fanoccracy when you know the subtitle in part speaks for itself, but youknow, just give a little definition to fantoccracy, because obviously it'll be partof, you know, the ongoing conversation here. Yeah, sure, soit's when fans rule and it's an organization that puts customers and I had ofeverything that it does. It's an organization and a feeling of true humanity,a true human connection. What is that look like in practice? So andis it? I know that's a huge question because you have her so manystyles of businesses and organizations in the book. I mean for folks who are listening, that sounds awesome right. You know, if you're in an organizationand you want to be more human centered in and build community and build truefandom, and you can. But the thing, one of the things,many things I enjoyed about the book is it's just a range of examples inthere from, you know, car insurance to government agencies, be to beBTC, everything. Now, batteries, batteries, batteries, stir so batteries. Yeah, so we went into the book five years ago. RACO's twentysix now, so she was twenty one at the time, and we wentinto this idea of the fact that she and I are both passionate about afew things. I am incredibly passionate about live music. I've done, Iwent to spend two seven hundred ninety live shows, including seventy five grateful deadconcerts, and I've got a grateful dead wall of fame in my office.I own a great road case that was used in eight hundred and fifty concertsby the grateful dead. So I'm a I'm a dialed in Fan and mydaughter Raco is really into Harry Potter, not only as she read every book, seen every movie multiple times, she wrote an eighty five thousand word I'llturn to vent into the Harry Potter series where draco Malfoy is a spy forthe order of the Phoenix. Put on a fan fiction site. It's beendownloaded thousands and thousands of times, comment and on hundreds of times. Sowe entered this project as fans of the things that we love and our thesiswas that any organization, any company, any PRODUC sers idea can build fans. That was our thesis and we've proven that to be absolutely correct. Andone of the my favorite examples of that is haggarty insurance and they do automobileinsurance and I've asked thousands of people in my presentations around the world in multiplecountries. How many people love Auto Insurance? And nobody ever raises their hand.It's a terrible product. Nobody wants to buy it. You know,when you put it on your credit card, your right that check. It's nofun at all. And furthermore, no one wants to use the productbecause I hope you've crashed your car right. So a terrible thing. And soI was talking to the CEO of Haggarty Insurance. Is Name is mackeelhaggerty's the entrepreneurial founder and CEO of the of the company and he's and theydo classic Car Auto Insurance. And he says, David, everyone hates myproduct. My product sucks. So I can't mark it the way everybody elsedoes. I can't become the low cost provider. I don't want to dothat. I don't want to out outspend on advertising. I can't compete withthe Geckos of the world. So he said we're going to go out andspecifically set out to build fans, and so he's developing a human connection withpotential and existing customers. So initially what they did was they went to classiccar shows around the North America hundreds of year, he and his people andthey would meet with people who love classic cars. So they're taking existing fansof classic cars and then connecting with those...

...people as a like minded part ofthat tribe of enthusiasts. And then that developed some people who then joined theirtheir company as customers. And then they created drivers club to bring different ownersof classic cars together in a in a both a virtual and a physical way. They created valuations reports, so, using their data, for how muchthey're ensuring cars for? How much is your car worth? And they havenow an incredible amount of data that practically any classic car you can get evaluationfor. And all of the end they of a youtube channel with over amillion subscribers. But all of these things have developed a human connection, atrue human connection with with cut potential and existing customers. Where the Haggarty isnow has a fandom of their own. They have hundreds of thousands of peoplewho are fans of them, including me, and I actually got a card fromthem. It arrived several days ago. I've got it right here and it'smy fifteen anniversary card. I've been a custom wow, I've been acustomer of Hay for fifteen years now. They enture my one thousand nine hundredand seventy three Land Rover and they sent me an anniversary card thanking me fortheir for my business on there. And you know, they're being a customerof their insurance company. And Mikhel Haggarty told me day would. We're crushingit. Where now the largest classic car insurer and the entire world. We'regoing to grow by two hundred thousand new customers this year. Everybody loves whatwe do and it's all built on fandom. It's all build on a human relationshipthat develops into people who become fans of a company that sells a productthat everybody hates. Love it and it really I mean that example is sogood. It speaks to the subtitle the book, which is turning fans intocustomers and customers into fans. And so this idea that by approaching, andI love the way that you positioned what Machhel wanted to do there, whichis I want to create fans, and it wasn't I want to turn mycustomers into fans, it's I want to create something that people can be fanaticalabout, connect people together and, by the way, some of them aregoing to become customers and some of the customers are going to participate in thefandom. So it really speaks to that given take and working both sides ofit. You're not just trying to take. Typically, when people think about this, it's take a customer and turn them into an advocate or a fanor whatever you want to call so I love this, this idea of buildingthat in up front. So, folks that are listening, if you havenot visited Bombombcom podcast, you're missing out on video clips of these conversations andI just got a really nice tour of David's grateful dead collection on his wall, as well as that travel box and the card from haggarty's. If youwant to see some of the stuff that we're talking about, to see theguess, I'm putting it all up in blog posted bombombcom slash podcast. So, speaking of the grateful dead, I feel like this book is kind ofa natural extension of marketing lessons from the grateful dead in that, you know, picks up the lessons, it expands on them and again, as Ialready said, it illustrates the ice some of the ideas with a much broaderrange of companies, organizations, fandoms, things that we can connect to.What do you say? That's fair? Yeah, absolutely, and that book, marketing lessons from the grateful dead, came out about a decade ago.So Brian Halligan, who's the CEO of hub spot, and I wrote thatTogether, and Bill Wall in the NBA Basketball Hall of fame or work theforward to our book, and so we were expriyant and I were exploring theideas of how did the grateful dead build fans and can the ideas about howthe grateful dead built fans be applied to other businesses? And the answers yes. So you're out and you're very perceptive and in asking me that, becauseindeed, having already written one book about this idea of growing fans and inthat case very specifically using the techniques of...

...the grateful dead dead, helped meto give a much broader thought to fandom in general and then bring my daughterand Rico, as a very different person, a mixed race millennial woman, tofigure out how this can apply to all different kinds of people and culturesand ideas and products and services. And one of the things that grateful deaddid that is so was so unique still is so unique. is unlike everyother band. The grateful dead allowed fans to record concerts, so fans couldbring in professional level recording here and they, the grateful dead, actually gave thema special place that they could go to right behind the mixing board.They even had power strips you could plug into. I mean it was andyou could. You could put your microphones up in the air on stands.I mean they let they really let you go to town and record the showsand the only rule was that you can't sell the resulting recordings, but peoplecould freely trade. Initially in the early days it was cassette tapes and itbecame MP three files. You could trade the tapes, you could give themaway, as long as you don't sell them, and that then generated anincredible passion for people who listen to the grateful dead in these freely recorded initiallyto cassette tapes and then MP three files, and then they would say, youknow what, this is great, I want to go to a gratefuldead concert too, or I want to buy a studio album too, andthat actually created one of the most popular touring bands in American history and evennow twenty five years after Jerry Garcia died, the surviving members of the grateful debtare still touring. Dead and company, with John Mayer and the Jerry GarciaRoll is still touring and I'm still going. I went in two thousandand nineteen. I went to seven concerts. Wow, and the tickets are expensive. I've probably spent four or five thousand dollars in two thousand and nineteenon the grateful bed and it all goes back to when I was a teenagerand I heard music coming out of my friends stereo system and that got mehooked on the band. And this idea of giving something away completely free withoutany expectation of anything in return, is one of the chapters in fanocracy,and any organization can do that. So we have a cool example of Duracell batteries. And what Dura cell does is they have a something called thepower forward program where when when there's a natural disaster, hurricane, flood,fire, something like that, and power goes out, they have a fleetof trucks that go to the place where the power outage is to give awayFree Dura cell batteries, absolutely no obligation, nothing in expectation of anything in return. They just give away free batteries when people need them. Now what'sinteresting about this is this is when batteries are in the most demand. Theycould price gouge, you know, people are willing to pay five ten dollarsfor a pack of batteries that are normally two dollars ninety five cents. Butdress doesn't do that. They just give them away for free, and thatgood will is something that people remember for many years. They tell their friends, they tell their colleagues. What I see, though, are way toomany organizations, especially be to be companies, doing the opposite. What a typicalbe to be company does is they create a white paper or an ebookor some other piece of content and, rather than give it away for freewith no out no expectation of anything in return, like the grateful dead andDuras cell, they slap the requirement that you have to give an email addressin order to get that white paper or ebook or other piece of online content. That sets up an adversarial relationship. It's not a good way to buildfans, because what you're doing is you're saying, oh no, I'm notgoing to give you anything unless you give...

...me something first. Yeah, youmust get you must give me your email address before I'll give you my whitepaper. And that's an that's an adversarial relationship, it's a it's a it'sa business contract, if you will, rather than giving away something for free. So I recommend that people take a page out of the grateful dead playbookor the Dursall playbook and make that white paper or ebook completely and totally free, with no registration at all, because that's what will allow your content tospread and that, well, that's what will help you to build fans.I love it so UN gate that content for starters. Don't price gouge justbecause you can. Right respect people as humans. I really appreciate the specificallynamed artists that protect the price integrity of tickets to live shows, like younamed like eight or ten of them, and it because there's so many bandsand, of course, some of the venue owners, and it's all atthis point conglomerated. That are, you know, you wind up, thetickets go on sale at ten am, by ten o one, it's completelysold out and you know, two thirds of the venue is now marked upat, you know, four hundred percent of the original ticket price. Andso I appreciate that you called out folks that are intentionally doing the opposite ofthat and welcoming people in it at acceptable and appropriate prices and that and whatthat's all about. It's a different chapter. Chapter we're talking about transparency and tellingthe truth. Is that, you know, it's a really big partof customer experience to always tell the truth. Isn't anything. I mean, somany companies hide behind, you know, legal ease or they make an excusefor something that goes wrong or, in this example of tickets, theyblame the venue or they blame ticket master or the other ticketing systems for forwhat's going on. And fans, customers, have a horrible experience buying tickets.You know, you want to go to the big concert, you wantto go see whatever band it is, and you go to the you goto the ticketing system at ten am, as you said, and all ofa sudden all the tickets are gone. But you go onto stubhub and there'sthousands and thousands of tickets of the same show that you couldn't get on theprimary market available at a huge markup on the secondary market. It's really disconcertingand it's a horrible horrible customer experience. So what what some bands, therolling stones, Jack White and there's a bunch of other ones, have doneis they've figured out different ways to make it way more transparent and way morehonest and give the true fan an opportunity to buy tickets on the primary market. And it turns out that fans don't have a problem with a highly pricedticket. You know, if you have to pay four hundred dollars for agood seat to the rolling stones, fans understand that and you know if you'rewilling to pay it, you want to pay it to the band, notto some scalper. So these bands have figured out ways to sell directly toyou and if you want to pay, that's fine. It's kind of likewhen you buy airline seats. You know if you want to spend the bigbucks to sit in business class, well, you know you're going to pay more. If you want to spend less money, you can sit in theback. And the same things true of sitting in a rolling stone show.You know want to pay a little bit extra or a lot extra, youcan be up front. If you're not willing to pay the extra, you'regoing to be in the back. And so this idea of transparency and honestyas a really important aspect of fandom and a really important aspect of customer experienceis something that we can all work on and it's fairly simple. Yeah,I think honesty and transparency, of course,...

...are part of the trust building process. When you have trust establish it's when we can be a little bitmore vulnerable with each other, and when we can be a little bit vulnerablewith each other is how we build real, true human connection, which kind ofsee, there's so many places I want to go. I just lovethe material, but where I want to go next is is around that humanconnection, because a lot of the work that we do here at Bombom wemake it really easy to record and send lightweight videos in place of faceless digitalcommunication, right nails, text messages, social messages, and you have somereally cool research in the book about facetoface communication, physical proximity, and ithas implications for video to so I love you do a drive by on thatproximity layer and how it translates even through the screen. Now it's incredibly importantand I believe it's so important that bombomb is is just going to do sowell going forward because what we did was my daughter, Raycod, did aneuroscience to undergraduate at neuroscience degree at Columbia University and as we were talking aboutthis idea of Fandom, one of the things that we really wanted to dowas dig into what's actually going on in our brains when we become a fanof something. What's happening? And we wanted to be able to talk aboutthat in the book and figure out whether that leads to any prescriptions, andthe answer as it does. So we spoke with a number of different importantneuroscientists about what's happening in our brains and it turns out that all of usare hardwired to feel safe and comfortable within our own tribe of people, andthis goes back, you know, tens and tens of thousands of years,because if you're within your tribe, you're safe and comfortable, if you're outsideof your tribe you're vulnerable to attack. We modern humans can't help the factthat we're still concerned about that. And so it turns out the closer youget to somebody physically, the more powerful the shared emotions, either positive ornegative. One neuroscientist named Edward t hall actually identified different levels of proximity.Further than about twelve feet away is he called public space. And in publicspace we humans know the people are further than twelve feet away from us.We understand that, but we don't yet begin to track them in our subconscious. Once people get within about twelve feet, that's called social space. Inside oftwelve feet to about four feet, we track the people that get intoour social space. So if you walk into a crowded room, you can'thelp the fact that you're you're scanning people within about twelve feet to find out, is there anybody here I know? Is there anybody here from my tribe? Is there danger here? And so this is why when you walk intoa room with your friends, you feel great and when you walk into acrowded elevator you feel nervous. You can't help that. That's hard wired intoour brain. And then inside of fore feet is called personal space. That'slike cocktail party distance or when close friends are together, maybe over an intimatemeal, that kind of thing. Even more powerful connections. So what thismeans for us to grow fans is, can you figure out ways to getyour customers or potential customers into social space or even personal space of you andyour employees, or, even better, can you get your customers into thesocial and personal space of other customers? So this is why a physical event, a customer event, you know, your client conference, your sales tokick off these things are really important in a world of digital communications, havingthose physical events are are amazingly important, and I I speak all over theworld at customer events and many of them are lovefests, you know, whereyou've got thousands or even tens of thousands...

...of people that converge on a cityand it's and it's fans of that company getting together. Really powerful stuff,well worthy investment, even if you're losing money on ticket sales. But thensome people say, well, David, you know, we can't do thosephysical events, or clients are all over the world, or we run avirtual business or whatever it is. And that's where video services like bomb bomb, as well as things like youtube for providing marketing videos, incredibly powerful,because it turns out through something called Mirror neurons, which are the part ofour brains that fire when we see or even just here somebody doing something,can be very applicable when it comes to video, because the virtual proximity foundon a video camera is really powerful and I'm going to demonstrate that now.So here's another clip that might go on your your site that I've got alemon in one hand and a slice of lemon in another hand. Now,if I take a bite of this slice of lemon, wow, it's reallypowerful to take a bite of a slice of lemon right my eyes closed andscrunch up. My mouth starts to water. It's my mouth puckers up a littlebit. I mean powerful thing to bite into a lemon. And justby seeing this Ethan, I bet your feeling some lemon to yeah, Ifeel little. I felt a little pull in the in the front of mymouth, as you're like. I know it's weird, right, and evenpeople who are aren't seeing the video clip but are here just hearing me talkabout it, are probably tasting a little bit of lemon. So this isthe concept of mirror neurons, because your brain is firing as if you tookthe bite of Lemon yourself. Here's where that that up applies to video.When you watch a video of people cropped as if you're in personal space,so about four feet away, looking directly at the camera, people think they'repeople. Intellectually know they're just on a camera. I'm not actually in thesame room, but your subconscious your mirror neurons tell you that you're actually inclose physical proximity. You're in the personal space of the person who's on thescreen. This is precisely why we feel we know movie stars, even thoughwe've never met that movie star and intellectually we know they're just an image ona screen, we feel you know them. So this is a powerful way togrow fans of a business. Create a youtube channel and do videos thatdrive people into your business, and then you services like bom bomb to communicateto people using video, because that's an incredibly powerful way to build fans byestablishing a virtual close proximity to existing in potential customers. I love it thatpsychological proximity is such a big deal. Like it's easy for us to quantifythings when we've done it through surveys and mountains of anecdotes and things like.I get more replies and responses, I get more clicks through my emails,I convert leads at a higher rate, I can stay in touch more effectivelyin all these other you know, kind of quantifiable benefits. But this otherside of it we hear all the time, but it's hard to put a numbertwo, and that one of the most common things I hear from peoplethat use our service often is people feel like they know me before they evermeet me. And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's a really interestingdynamic and I get that reply myself and it's rooted in neuroscience. And that'swhat's so fascinating to me about is if this is real stuff, this isnot just like, you know, marketing materials from bomb on. This isa real stuff. You know, it's really rooted in neuroscience. Some evidencethat we've found, which is so interesting, is that the average social media postthat includes video crop if you're looking at the camera, crops if it'sfour feet away, or photographs looking at...

...a camera as if it's about fourfeet away. And by the way, that includes a Selfie, because yourarm is about four feet long, so if you're doing a selfie right you'rein personal space with that camera. Those posts, video and photographs included,get way more social interaction then posts that are just text or images that arenot of people. So it's all kinds of evidence that this concept around neuroscienceof proximity, virtual proximity, is true. I want to go into something thatwas that that can be that you just kind of did a drive byon, but I think it's worth mentioning. I think a lot of people whenwe're having this customer experience conversation, we talked about the relationship of companyto customer or or employee a customer. But what what it is running throughoutfan accuracy and in in your one of your last responses, is it's notjust company to a customer or employeed a customer, it's customer to customer andit's employee to employee. And that, and I thought about that too,is you're talking about honesty and transparency. It's like, you know, whatkind of company do you want to work for? One that you can respectbecause it's honest and transparent or were not? So talk a little bit about thisgive and take all the way around. For like a holistic fan accuracy.It includes those three stakeholders and more. Yeah, so one of the thingsthat was kind of surprising to us is that once we started talking topeople over the last five years about fans, fandom and and what they're a fanof, and and just the idea of how and why people become fans. People would write up, because everybody loves to talk about the thing they'repassionate about. And it turns out that passion is infect when you're passionate aboutsomething, that passion shines through and the the the person that you're speaking with, does not have to share the same passion as you do, and thisis why sometimes that people who are fans of rival sports teams can have reallygood, strong relationships, because they recognize in each other that even though Ilove the Red Sox and you love the Yankees, for example, you're bothpassionate about baseball and you can both understand that passion. And so this becomesa really important concept around fanocracy, that passion is infectious. It leads tohow do you hire the right people? People who are already have passion intheir life for something are much more likely to be passionate about you and yourbrand and your business and share that passion with customers. When you bring customerstogether who are passionate about your brand, they share the fact that they're passionateabout what you do, about your company, about what you do, and thatis something that then that passion goes both ways, and so these thingsare all really, really important and I think, very often overlooked. Anotherthing that's overlooked, which we found to be really cool, is that peoplewho share their private passions in their professional life generate way more engagement than thosewho don't. And we found a dentist. His name is Dr John Murrashi,and Dr Murrashi came to me about two years ago and said, David, I'm a dentist in southern California. There's tens of thousands of dentists insouthern California. You know, how can I stand out when we all havethe same websites, we all show pictures of dirty, crooked teeth turning intostraight white teeth? How can I stand out? And we just started totalk about what we're passionate about, and Dr Murrashi is passionate about skateboarding.He's also passionate about bow ties, and I said, well, that's it. Mean let's just like focus on that.

Dr Murrash he's so he did.He he sort of doubled down on this idea of skateboarding and and bowties. So he normally wears bow ties and he's got out his white,like Kurtle lab coat thing, dentist coat on. He's got skateboards in hisoffice hanging on the walls. He skateboards from one examination room to another.His instagram, which, by the way, has more than thirteen thousand followers,a dentist with more than thirteen thousand followers, he's got a whole bunchof photographs and even some video of him skateboarding. Sometimes he's skateboarding wearing abow tie. And what he told me was just this idea of showcading,showcasing what he's passionate about in his personal life. SKATEBOARDING has nothing to dowith dentistry, but but what a cool customer experience to say my dentist isa great skateboarder. My dentist loves this skateboard and he told me that he'sgrown his business by thirty percent a year just by talking about the fact thathe's into skateboarding and showing that when he's in his office and and having theinstagram focus on skateboard. There's so much good stuff going on there and Ithink vulnerability is part of it. This idea that this dentist who you knowto three decades ago, is supposed to act as if I'm supposed to actas if I'm this, you know, all put together dentist that conforms towhatever the image of a dentist is. In this idea of like, thiscomfort of being yourself, is fundamentally attractive to other people. And again,to your point, it doesn't matter if I love skateboarding. I love thefact that he loves what he loves and he wears it on his sleeve andhe is who he is going exactly. And then so you have a choice. What's behind you in the in the office? Is it all of yourwonderful dental degrees? That's exactly what every other dentist does, or is ita couple of skateboards or pictures of you skateboarding? I mean, to methe difference is clear and to me I know what I would sign up for. As long as he's a good dentist. I'd much sure rather have the skateboarderthan than the the button down all business. I went to Harvard guytotally. You've been super generous with your time. I want to ask you, or at least get your response to a few quotes from the book thatare all kind of around a theme before we get to our standard closes.That is that? Okay, it sounds good. Okay, cool. Sothere's an underlying theme in the book we've it's been kind of at the tipof the conversation as we've gone and I've been thinking about it a lot,which is all of this. Is just how we make people feel. Likethat's what this is all about. And so I want to read a fewquotes and just get your get your reaction to it. A fandom business ishuman centered instead of data obsessed. A number can be a ceiling if aperson is too focused on it and it alone. We see many consumers becomingmore and more distant from brands that rely entirely on automated processes. And whatI'm getting here is like the data obsession, focus on numbers, automation versus humancentered and focusing on the process, not just the outcome. Like whatis the role of feeling in all of this to you, and and andwhat kind of pushback have you gotten about quantification of these things that are difficultto quantify? Yeah, good, good series of questions. So I thinkyou're right that this is very much the human connection. It is very mucha feeling. I mean, you know your theme and what this podcast isabout. It's a customer experience. And that's not to say that you don'tuse data, that you don't use technology. You certainly can. You may remember, or one of the stories in the book that I absolutely love isa company called me UNDY's and they're an underwear subscription company. So it's completelydata driven in the sense that they sell...

...underwear and you buy as subscription,so you get a new pair of underwear every month, and so it's highlydata driven in that once you subscribe, you know they got to take yourcredit card. Every month they have to send you a link to the availableunderwear that you can choose for that particular month. They know your size,they know which style you like, whether it's boxes or briefs or whatever itis, and so very, very, very data driven on the back end. But that's just to drive the humanity because they love sharing customers stories,they love sharing photos of their customers in their underwear. They have video oftheir customers in their underwear and they have just a fun vibe, you knowthere. Their tagline is ten million happy butts and going strong I mean that'sjust fun and human and interesting. So I don't think it's an either orbut I do think that so many companies are only obsessed with numbers and notobsessed with the humanity of it. And I think in our world where there'sso much more data, I mean you log into Netflix or whatever video youservice you used and it's so data driven that you don't see films outside ofthe ones that are similar to what you've seen in the past. I thinkthat's wrong. I think that, yes, you should be able to see filmssimilar to what you have, but that should be a choice. Itshouldn't be that you're that's the default that you can't get away from. Youknow, I I watched a number of documentaries, especially some music documentaries,when I first subscribed to Netflix. I can't get away from them now.Every time I log in a Netflix they're showing me the same damn thing.And so, yeah, algorithms are important, but they can't be the soul driverof how an organization communicates with customers. Great response. We will wind downon that. I appreciate your time so much. It's been it's beengreat. It's absolute pleasure for me. I hope you've enjoyed yourself and Iknow people of course, get tons of value out of out of the conversation. I know they will get value out of Fan accracy to when they pickit up and read it. I think there's an audiobook as well. Yeah, and Rico and I read the Audio Book Ourselves. So there's audiobook andebook format if you're into that, and then good old fashioned hardcover. Loveit. But and the book. The book premiered as a Weld's re journalbest seller, so it's done really well. Really happy about that. Yeah,well deserved. Before I let you go, couple things. I wouldlove to give you the chance to think or mentioned someone who's had a positive, if impact on your life or your career and to give a shout outto a company that maybe you haven't mentioned already. The really appreciate for theexperience they deliver for you as a customer. Sure. So, Tony Robbins wrotethe forward to fan accracy. Tony's my friend. I've spoken at TonyRobins business mastery events for six years now, between two and four events a yeararound the world, and you know he's a giant among public speakers andthe fact that he has me for two hours on his stage several times ayear, that he was willing to write the forward to my book is He'sa true mentor and friend and I appreciate that. A company I totally admirethat has a fabulous customer experience is called Grain surfboards. They make wooden surfboardsand for those of you who are looking on video, there is my grainsurfboard that I make. I made that surfboard. So what's cool about thecustomer experience there is you can either buy a wooden surfboard that they make intheir factory or you can go and make the wooden surfboard in their factory withthem yourself. It takes four days. It's amazing and I mean who doesthat? WHO allows you into their factory to let you make their product withthem? And I just love them for...

...it. It's called grain surfboards orin York Maine. So you can buy a wonderful wooden surfboard, sustainable forthe environment, beautiful, or you could even make one yourself. Yeah,I love it's great story in the book. It is really fun to read andI love the reaction of the folks at grain that we're like yeah,we just we just get so fired up when it comes time to have oneof these, you know, customers come in and make boards with us.Thing just again. It just speaks to the fantocracy and as far as communitygoes, of course, Tony Robbins, he said, is a giant.I want to give a couple things, which is not something that I alwaysdo on the show, but but your appearance here with me, and thankyou again so much for your time, was triggered in part by a previouspodcast guest, Samantha Stone, who is kind enough to send me a copyof fan accuracy, signed by both you and your daughter, and Hanley andJoseph Jaffe, previous podcast guests here on the customer experience podcast, whose work, like your own, David, was very, very influential with me ata very important time in my life and career, and and a guy namedJakenzo, who said that visionaries don't see the future, they see the presentmuch more clearly, and that's how I think of your work, David.If very kind of very kind of you to say so. That's a coolquote too. Yeah, it is a's in a sharp dude. If peoplewant to follow up. We already mentioned the book and the Digital Book inthe Audiobook, but if people want to connect with you some other way,where would you send them? So we've got a really well done site atwwwfacccom. There's videos, there's infographics that you can download, images, allsorts of cool stuff. They're to give you all all kinds of information aboutfantoccuracy. On on twitter and Instagram, I am DM Scott. That's DM Scott, and if you want to connect with me on Linkedin, pleasedo awesome. Thank you so much and David. By the way, forlisteners, David, of course, was kind enough to move his camera aroundfrequently throughout the episode and I will find all of those moments and several othersand they'll be available at bombombcom slash podcast, where you can see video clips andget roundups on these episodes. Thank you so much for your time,David, and thank you so much for listening. Thanks even clear communication,Human Connection, higher conversion, these are just some of the benefits of addingvideo to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just alittle guidance. So pick up the official book, Rehumanize Your Business.How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order todayat Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experiencepodcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategiesand tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcompodcasts.

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