The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

63. Creating Fans Through Human Connection w/ David Meerman Scott


If you’re looking to grow your business, then having a raving fan base can help you get you there. Passion is contagious, and they are passionate about what you have to offer.

So, as your fandom flourishes, so will your company.

To accomplish this, you have to give people an experience they’ll always remember – one built on human connection. And that’s hard to do.

But you can’t have truly invested fans without it.

Fortunately, our guest on this episode of The Customer Experience Podcast, David Meerman Scott, knows a thing or two about what it takes to create a solid company fanbase.

Reasons to Listen:

  • Why real (not virtual) human connection is vital to business success
  • What the underpinnings of Fanocracy consist of
  • Why giving things away for free is beneficial to making more fans
  • How to increase face-to-face proximity with current and potential fans through video
  • When data obsession gets in the way of human connection

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

This is a powerful way to grow fans of a business. Create a youtube channel and do videos that drive people into your business, and then you services like bombomb to communicate to people. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Beauty. Our deep need for human connection, the contagiousness of passion, a healthy blend of art and science, the dehumanizing effects of automation and data obsession, a need to relinquish control over your product, in your brand and turn it over to your fans. These things are important to me. They're important to customer experience and their foundational to the work of today's guest. He's a keynote speaker, Marketing Strategist, entrepreneur, start up advisor, VC partner in the best selling author of eleven books, including classics like the new rules of marketing at PR which is in its sixth edition, closing in on half a million copies. Sold and printed in dozens of languages, a Smart Passion Project. Marketing lessons from the grateful dead with hub spot CEO, Brian Halligan and his latest book, which I highly recommend, fanocracy, turning fans into customers and customers into fans. David Merman Scott, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, Ethan. I've done over a hundred podcasts in the last twelve months and that was by far the best introduction, so I appreciate that. That is really kind. I just I'm really happy to have you here. I love your work. I've read several of your books and and this latest one, Fan accracy, is just it's fun to read, it's easy to read and I really think it taps into and this is obviously the theme of new rules and and real time marketing and PR as well. It just really taps into the state of affairs with a level of clarity that you don't find often rights. It's a blend of theory and tactics and really tapped into the moment, I feel. Thank you. Thank you very much for saying that, because that's actually exactly what I wanted to do and what I have been able to do in the past and I think that now that we're starting a new decade, the decade of the S, I think we're in a new moment. The promise of social media has always been, you know, UNICORNS and rainbows and communicating with people and everyone loves one another, but that's not the reality today. The reality is a can be a very dark and cold place for many people. There's polarization everywhere. The social networks themselves, used to be optimized for communicating with your friends, are now optimized for profit, and then you've got the the whole political world on social networks, which is, you know, just a dangerous zone for everybody involved. So I wanted to look at what's next and to me, true human connection. I mean it's not that it's not that it's new. We've always had it. It's always been an important part of customer experience, but true human connection is what I think will be driving success in the S. I completely agree, and you use language around it that I use in describing some of the work that we do, which is is pendulum swing back away from a lot of the stuff that's come up and some of the stuff you refer to. So I'm going to ask you to find customer experience, but prior to that I'm going to ask a more personal question just to warm it up, and I'm going to ask you a little bit about parenting. So congratulations to you and your wife, because your daughter, Reicho, completed a neuroscience degree at Columbia. She's working on her medical degree at Boston University School of Medicine. She's an accomplished writer and she coauthored fan accuracy with you. So you know, based on the Research Infan accuracy, you point to fandom starting and adolescence. And so before we get going on customer...

...experience and Fan Accracy, I'd love to for you to talk briefly about your journey as a parent helping your daughter discover, explore and kind of live out these passions, because it seems like you've done a very good job. Oh, thank you for that. And she's a better writer than me too, as you as you know, because you've read the book. We we originally, and you don't know this part, we originally wanted to create one voice. So we were coauthors and we created a unified voice that brought us together. It just wasn't working. It was too generic. So we ended up writing individual chapters. I wrote about half, she wrote about half, and we let our own voices shine through and we actually say, you know, Chapter Three by David, Chapter Four by Rico, and it worked out great because her voice shines through in that way. And being a millennial, mixed race woman, neuro scientist who loves Harry Potter is really different than being a middle aged white guy who loves live music, especially the grateful dead. So we were able to really have different perspectives. But, you know, we only have one child, my wife and I, and we were focused from the very beginning and treating always having her with us. We only had a babysitter once, one time in our entire lives when she was young, we decide to go to a Madonna concert and we had a babysitter, but otherwise we took her everywhere, everywhere, you know, and she was three years old, she went to the restaurant, she was four years old, she went to the play, because we exposed her to many different things and then let her make decisions as soon as she was able. So as soon as she was able to choose which restaurant to go to, Susie, she was able to choose what play to go to, choose what movie to see, what book to read. That those were her decisions and she made choices that were right for her and we never second guess those choices. And if she would do something a little bit odd and get into a little bit of trouble with that was her choice and then she had to dial back from it. So so she's really doing some wonderful things in her career. She's going to be graduating from medical school and May and then we'll be embarking on her residency program and emergency medicine and doing so as a Wall Street Journal best selling author. So that's kind of awesome, so cool. That's so great. Congratulations to all three of you. So let's move into customer experience. When I say that, what does it mean to you? So I think of customer experiences everything that sort of outside of the product and service itself. And so how does the organization treat you as a person? What are the the intangibles that go along with the delivery of that product or service? You know what are what are the the overall ways that an organization engages with you as a customer? When you're a customer but also as you're evaluating a particular productor service. And and in fact, just before we get on the phone, I had an opportunity to contact the Wall Street Journal because I wanted to cancel my digital subscription. And you know, when you cancetel a product, that's customer experience and I'm I'm happy to say they did a good job with my cancelation. They did try to keep me, but they weren't obnoxious about it. Yeah, it's it's a careful balance. They're especially at that point of exit. And in the fact of the matter is, you might be back one day. You know, your situation today might change. And I told the REP that when I was younger I subscribe to the print publication and I was just trying to digital publication several decades later, and who knows, me, you're right, maybe I'll come back. Yeah, and so it versus, you know, burning you on the way out and you're like okay, I'm done. Yeah, that's right. So, for folks that aren't familiar,...

...could you give a just a definition of fanoccracy when you know the subtitle in part speaks for itself, but you know, just give a little definition to fantoccracy, because obviously it'll be part of, you know, the ongoing conversation here. Yeah, sure, so it's when fans rule and it's an organization that puts customers and I had of everything that it does. It's an organization and a feeling of true humanity, a true human connection. What is that look like in practice? So and is it? I know that's a huge question because you have her so many styles of businesses and organizations in the book. I mean for folks who are listening, that sounds awesome right. You know, if you're in an organization and you want to be more human centered in and build community and build true fandom, and you can. But the thing, one of the things, many things I enjoyed about the book is it's just a range of examples in there from, you know, car insurance to government agencies, be to be BTC, everything. Now, batteries, batteries, batteries, stir so batteries. Yeah, so we went into the book five years ago. RACO's twenty six now, so she was twenty one at the time, and we went into this idea of the fact that she and I are both passionate about a few things. I am incredibly passionate about live music. I've done, I went to spend two seven hundred ninety live shows, including seventy five grateful dead concerts, and I've got a grateful dead wall of fame in my office. I own a great road case that was used in eight hundred and fifty concerts by the grateful dead. So I'm a I'm a dialed in Fan and my daughter Raco is really into Harry Potter, not only as she read every book, seen every movie multiple times, she wrote an eighty five thousand word I'll turn to vent into the Harry Potter series where draco Malfoy is a spy for the order of the Phoenix. Put on a fan fiction site. It's been downloaded thousands and thousands of times, comment and on hundreds of times. So we entered this project as fans of the things that we love and our thesis was that any organization, any company, any PRODUC sers idea can build fans. That was our thesis and we've proven that to be absolutely correct. And one of the my favorite examples of that is haggarty insurance and they do automobile insurance and I've asked thousands of people in my presentations around the world in multiple countries. How many people love Auto Insurance? And nobody ever raises their hand. It's a terrible product. Nobody wants to buy it. You know, when you put it on your credit card, your right that check. It's no fun at all. And furthermore, no one wants to use the product because I hope you've crashed your car right. So a terrible thing. And so I was talking to the CEO of Haggarty Insurance. Is Name is mackeel haggerty's the entrepreneurial founder and CEO of the of the company and he's and they do classic Car Auto Insurance. And he says, David, everyone hates my product. My product sucks. So I can't mark it the way everybody else does. I can't become the low cost provider. I don't want to do that. I don't want to out outspend on advertising. I can't compete with the Geckos of the world. So he said we're going to go out and specifically set out to build fans, and so he's developing a human connection with potential and existing customers. So initially what they did was they went to classic car shows around the North America hundreds of year, he and his people and they would meet with people who love classic cars. So they're taking existing fans of classic cars and then connecting with those...

...people as a like minded part of that tribe of enthusiasts. And then that developed some people who then joined their their company as customers. And then they created drivers club to bring different owners of classic cars together in a in a both a virtual and a physical way. They created valuations reports, so, using their data, for how much they're ensuring cars for? How much is your car worth? And they have now an incredible amount of data that practically any classic car you can get evaluation for. And all of the end they of a youtube channel with over a million subscribers. But all of these things have developed a human connection, a true human connection with with cut potential and existing customers. Where the Haggarty is now has a fandom of their own. They have hundreds of thousands of people who are fans of them, including me, and I actually got a card from them. It arrived several days ago. I've got it right here and it's my fifteen anniversary card. I've been a custom wow, I've been a customer of Hay for fifteen years now. They enture my one thousand nine hundred and seventy three Land Rover and they sent me an anniversary card thanking me for their for my business on there. And you know, they're being a customer of their insurance company. And Mikhel Haggarty told me day would. We're crushing it. Where now the largest classic car insurer and the entire world. We're going to grow by two hundred thousand new customers this year. Everybody loves what we do and it's all built on fandom. It's all build on a human relationship that develops into people who become fans of a company that sells a product that everybody hates. Love it and it really I mean that example is so good. It speaks to the subtitle the book, which is turning fans into customers and customers into fans. And so this idea that by approaching, and I love the way that you positioned what Machhel wanted to do there, which is I want to create fans, and it wasn't I want to turn my customers into fans, it's I want to create something that people can be fanatical about, connect people together and, by the way, some of them are going to become customers and some of the customers are going to participate in the fandom. So it really speaks to that given take and working both sides of it. You're not just trying to take. Typically, when people think about this, it's take a customer and turn them into an advocate or a fan or whatever you want to call so I love this, this idea of building that in up front. So, folks that are listening, if you have not visited Bombombcom podcast, you're missing out on video clips of these conversations and I just got a really nice tour of David's grateful dead collection on his wall, as well as that travel box and the card from haggarty's. If you want to see some of the stuff that we're talking about, to see the guess, I'm putting it all up in blog posted bombombcom slash podcast. So, speaking of the grateful dead, I feel like this book is kind of a natural extension of marketing lessons from the grateful dead in that, you know, picks up the lessons, it expands on them and again, as I already said, it illustrates the ice some of the ideas with a much broader range of companies, organizations, fandoms, things that we can connect to. What do you say? That's fair? Yeah, absolutely, and that book, marketing lessons from the grateful dead, came out about a decade ago. So Brian Halligan, who's the CEO of hub spot, and I wrote that Together, and Bill Wall in the NBA Basketball Hall of fame or work the forward to our book, and so we were expriyant and I were exploring the ideas of how did the grateful dead build fans and can the ideas about how the grateful dead built fans be applied to other businesses? And the answers yes. So you're out and you're very perceptive and in asking me that, because indeed, having already written one book about this idea of growing fans and in that case very specifically using the techniques of...

...the grateful dead dead, helped me to give a much broader thought to fandom in general and then bring my daughter and Rico, as a very different person, a mixed race millennial woman, to figure out how this can apply to all different kinds of people and cultures and ideas and products and services. And one of the things that grateful dead did that is so was so unique still is so unique. is unlike every other band. The grateful dead allowed fans to record concerts, so fans could bring in professional level recording here and they, the grateful dead, actually gave them a special place that they could go to right behind the mixing board. They even had power strips you could plug into. I mean it was and you could. You could put your microphones up in the air on stands. I mean they let they really let you go to town and record the shows and the only rule was that you can't sell the resulting recordings, but people could freely trade. Initially in the early days it was cassette tapes and it became MP three files. You could trade the tapes, you could give them away, as long as you don't sell them, and that then generated an incredible passion for people who listen to the grateful dead in these freely recorded initially to cassette tapes and then MP three files, and then they would say, you know what, this is great, I want to go to a grateful dead concert too, or I want to buy a studio album too, and that actually created one of the most popular touring bands in American history and even now twenty five years after Jerry Garcia died, the surviving members of the grateful debt are still touring. Dead and company, with John Mayer and the Jerry Garcia Roll is still touring and I'm still going. I went in two thousand and nineteen. I went to seven concerts. Wow, and the tickets are expensive. I've probably spent four or five thousand dollars in two thousand and nineteen on the grateful bed and it all goes back to when I was a teenager and I heard music coming out of my friends stereo system and that got me hooked on the band. And this idea of giving something away completely free without any expectation of anything in return, is one of the chapters in fanocracy, and any organization can do that. So we have a cool example of Dura cell batteries. And what Dura cell does is they have a something called the power forward program where when when there's a natural disaster, hurricane, flood, fire, something like that, and power goes out, they have a fleet of trucks that go to the place where the power outage is to give away Free Dura cell batteries, absolutely no obligation, nothing in expectation of anything in return. They just give away free batteries when people need them. Now what's interesting about this is this is when batteries are in the most demand. They could price gouge, you know, people are willing to pay five ten dollars for a pack of batteries that are normally two dollars ninety five cents. But dress doesn't do that. They just give them away for free, and that good will is something that people remember for many years. They tell their friends, they tell their colleagues. What I see, though, are way too many organizations, especially be to be companies, doing the opposite. What a typical be to be company does is they create a white paper or an ebook or some other piece of content and, rather than give it away for free with no out no expectation of anything in return, like the grateful dead and Duras cell, they slap the requirement that you have to give an email address in order to get that white paper or ebook or other piece of online content. That sets up an adversarial relationship. It's not a good way to build fans, because what you're doing is you're saying, oh no, I'm not going to give you anything unless you give... something first. Yeah, you must get you must give me your email address before I'll give you my white paper. And that's an that's an adversarial relationship, it's a it's a it's a business contract, if you will, rather than giving away something for free. So I recommend that people take a page out of the grateful dead playbook or the Dursall playbook and make that white paper or ebook completely and totally free, with no registration at all, because that's what will allow your content to spread and that, well, that's what will help you to build fans. I love it so UN gate that content for starters. Don't price gouge just because you can. Right respect people as humans. I really appreciate the specifically named artists that protect the price integrity of tickets to live shows, like you named like eight or ten of them, and it because there's so many bands and, of course, some of the venue owners, and it's all at this point conglomerated. That are, you know, you wind up, the tickets go on sale at ten am, by ten o one, it's completely sold out and you know, two thirds of the venue is now marked up at, you know, four hundred percent of the original ticket price. And so I appreciate that you called out folks that are intentionally doing the opposite of that and welcoming people in it at acceptable and appropriate prices and that and what that's all about. It's a different chapter. Chapter we're talking about transparency and telling the truth. Is that, you know, it's a really big part of customer experience to always tell the truth. Isn't anything. I mean, so many companies hide behind, you know, legal ease or they make an excuse for something that goes wrong or, in this example of tickets, they blame the venue or they blame ticket master or the other ticketing systems for for what's going on. And fans, customers, have a horrible experience buying tickets. You know, you want to go to the big concert, you want to go see whatever band it is, and you go to the you go to the ticketing system at ten am, as you said, and all of a sudden all the tickets are gone. But you go onto stubhub and there's thousands and thousands of tickets of the same show that you couldn't get on the primary market available at a huge markup on the secondary market. It's really disconcerting and it's a horrible horrible customer experience. So what what some bands, the rolling stones, Jack White and there's a bunch of other ones, have done is they've figured out different ways to make it way more transparent and way more honest and give the true fan an opportunity to buy tickets on the primary market. And it turns out that fans don't have a problem with a highly priced ticket. You know, if you have to pay four hundred dollars for a good seat to the rolling stones, fans understand that and you know if you're willing to pay it, you want to pay it to the band, not to some scalper. So these bands have figured out ways to sell directly to you and if you want to pay, that's fine. It's kind of like when you buy airline seats. You know if you want to spend the big bucks to sit in business class, well, you know you're going to pay more. If you want to spend less money, you can sit in the back. And the same things true of sitting in a rolling stone show. You know want to pay a little bit extra or a lot extra, you can be up front. If you're not willing to pay the extra, you're going to be in the back. And so this idea of transparency and honesty as a really important aspect of fandom and a really important aspect of customer experience is something that we can all work on and it's fairly simple. Yeah, I think honesty and transparency, of course,...

...are part of the trust building process. When you have trust establish it's when we can be a little bit more vulnerable with each other, and when we can be a little bit vulnerable with each other is how we build real, true human connection, which kind of see, there's so many places I want to go. I just love the material, but where I want to go next is is around that human connection, because a lot of the work that we do here at Bombom we make it really easy to record and send lightweight videos in place of faceless digital communication, right nails, text messages, social messages, and you have some really cool research in the book about facetoface communication, physical proximity, and it has implications for video to so I love you do a drive by on that proximity layer and how it translates even through the screen. Now it's incredibly important and I believe it's so important that bombomb is is just going to do so well going forward because what we did was my daughter, Raycod, did a neuroscience to undergraduate at neuroscience degree at Columbia University and as we were talking about this idea of Fandom, one of the things that we really wanted to do was dig into what's actually going on in our brains when we become a fan of something. What's happening? And we wanted to be able to talk about that in the book and figure out whether that leads to any prescriptions, and the answer as it does. So we spoke with a number of different important neuroscientists about what's happening in our brains and it turns out that all of us are hardwired to feel safe and comfortable within our own tribe of people, and this goes back, you know, tens and tens of thousands of years, because if you're within your tribe, you're safe and comfortable, if you're outside of your tribe you're vulnerable to attack. We modern humans can't help the fact that we're still concerned about that. And so it turns out the closer you get to somebody physically, the more powerful the shared emotions, either positive or negative. One neuroscientist named Edward t hall actually identified different levels of proximity. Further than about twelve feet away is he called public space. And in public space we humans know the people are further than twelve feet away from us. We understand that, but we don't yet begin to track them in our subconscious. Once people get within about twelve feet, that's called social space. Inside of twelve feet to about four feet, we track the people that get into our social space. So if you walk into a crowded room, you can't help the fact that you're you're scanning people within about twelve feet to find out, is there anybody here I know? Is there anybody here from my tribe? Is there danger here? And so this is why when you walk into a room with your friends, you feel great and when you walk into a crowded elevator you feel nervous. You can't help that. That's hard wired into our brain. And then inside of fore feet is called personal space. That's like cocktail party distance or when close friends are together, maybe over an intimate meal, that kind of thing. Even more powerful connections. So what this means for us to grow fans is, can you figure out ways to get your customers or potential customers into social space or even personal space of you and your employees, or, even better, can you get your customers into the social and personal space of other customers? So this is why a physical event, a customer event, you know, your client conference, your sales to kick off these things are really important in a world of digital communications, having those physical events are are amazingly important, and I I speak all over the world at customer events and many of them are lovefests, you know, where you've got thousands or even tens of thousands...

...of people that converge on a city and it's and it's fans of that company getting together. Really powerful stuff, well worthy investment, even if you're losing money on ticket sales. But then some people say, well, David, you know, we can't do those physical events, or clients are all over the world, or we run a virtual business or whatever it is. And that's where video services like bomb bomb, as well as things like youtube for providing marketing videos, incredibly powerful, because it turns out through something called Mirror neurons, which are the part of our brains that fire when we see or even just here somebody doing something, can be very applicable when it comes to video, because the virtual proximity found on a video camera is really powerful and I'm going to demonstrate that now. So here's another clip that might go on your your site that I've got a lemon in one hand and a slice of lemon in another hand. Now, if I take a bite of this slice of lemon, wow, it's really powerful to take a bite of a slice of lemon right my eyes closed and scrunch up. My mouth starts to water. It's my mouth puckers up a little bit. I mean powerful thing to bite into a lemon. And just by seeing this Ethan, I bet your feeling some lemon to yeah, I feel little. I felt a little pull in the in the front of my mouth, as you're like. I know it's weird, right, and even people who are aren't seeing the video clip but are here just hearing me talk about it, are probably tasting a little bit of lemon. So this is the concept of mirror neurons, because your brain is firing as if you took the bite of Lemon yourself. Here's where that that up applies to video. When you watch a video of people cropped as if you're in personal space, so about four feet away, looking directly at the camera, people think they're people. Intellectually know they're just on a camera. I'm not actually in the same room, but your subconscious your mirror neurons tell you that you're actually in close physical proximity. You're in the personal space of the person who's on the screen. This is precisely why we feel we know movie stars, even though we've never met that movie star and intellectually we know they're just an image on a screen, we feel you know them. So this is a powerful way to grow fans of a business. Create a youtube channel and do videos that drive people into your business, and then you services like bom bomb to communicate to people using video, because that's an incredibly powerful way to build fans by establishing a virtual close proximity to existing in potential customers. I love it that psychological proximity is such a big deal. Like it's easy for us to quantify things when we've done it through surveys and mountains of anecdotes and things like. I get more replies and responses, I get more clicks through my emails, I convert leads at a higher rate, I can stay in touch more effectively in all these other you know, kind of quantifiable benefits. But this other side of it we hear all the time, but it's hard to put a number two, and that one of the most common things I hear from people that use our service often is people feel like they know me before they ever meet me. And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's a really interesting dynamic and I get that reply myself and it's rooted in neuroscience. And that's what's so fascinating to me about is if this is real stuff, this is not just like, you know, marketing materials from bomb on. This is a real stuff. You know, it's really rooted in neuroscience. Some evidence that we've found, which is so interesting, is that the average social media post that includes video crop if you're looking at the camera, crops if it's four feet away, or photographs looking at...

...a camera as if it's about four feet away. And by the way, that includes a Selfie, because your arm is about four feet long, so if you're doing a selfie right you're in personal space with that camera. Those posts, video and photographs included, get way more social interaction then posts that are just text or images that are not of people. So it's all kinds of evidence that this concept around neuroscience of proximity, virtual proximity, is true. I want to go into something that was that that can be that you just kind of did a drive by on, but I think it's worth mentioning. I think a lot of people when we're having this customer experience conversation, we talked about the relationship of company to customer or or employee a customer. But what what it is running throughout fan accuracy and in in your one of your last responses, is it's not just company to a customer or employeed a customer, it's customer to customer and it's employee to employee. And that, and I thought about that too, is you're talking about honesty and transparency. It's like, you know, what kind of company do you want to work for? One that you can respect because it's honest and transparent or were not? So talk a little bit about this give and take all the way around. For like a holistic fan accuracy. It includes those three stakeholders and more. Yeah, so one of the things that was kind of surprising to us is that once we started talking to people over the last five years about fans, fandom and and what they're a fan of, and and just the idea of how and why people become fans. People would write up, because everybody loves to talk about the thing they're passionate about. And it turns out that passion is infect when you're passionate about something, that passion shines through and the the the person that you're speaking with, does not have to share the same passion as you do, and this is why sometimes that people who are fans of rival sports teams can have really good, strong relationships, because they recognize in each other that even though I love the Red Sox and you love the Yankees, for example, you're both passionate about baseball and you can both understand that passion. And so this becomes a really important concept around fanocracy, that passion is infectious. It leads to how do you hire the right people? People who are already have passion in their life for something are much more likely to be passionate about you and your brand and your business and share that passion with customers. When you bring customers together who are passionate about your brand, they share the fact that they're passionate about what you do, about your company, about what you do, and that is something that then that passion goes both ways, and so these things are all really, really important and I think, very often overlooked. Another thing that's overlooked, which we found to be really cool, is that people who share their private passions in their professional life generate way more engagement than those who don't. And we found a dentist. His name is Dr John Murrashi, and Dr Murrashi came to me about two years ago and said, David, I'm a dentist in southern California. There's tens of thousands of dentists in southern California. You know, how can I stand out when we all have the same websites, we all show pictures of dirty, crooked teeth turning into straight white teeth? How can I stand out? And we just started to talk about what we're passionate about, and Dr Murrashi is passionate about skateboarding. He's also passionate about bow ties, and I said, well, that's it. Mean let's just like focus on that.

Dr Murrash he's so he did. He he sort of doubled down on this idea of skateboarding and and bow ties. So he normally wears bow ties and he's got out his white, like Kurtle lab coat thing, dentist coat on. He's got skateboards in his office hanging on the walls. He skateboards from one examination room to another. His instagram, which, by the way, has more than thirteen thousand followers, a dentist with more than thirteen thousand followers, he's got a whole bunch of photographs and even some video of him skateboarding. Sometimes he's skateboarding wearing a bow tie. And what he told me was just this idea of showcading, showcasing what he's passionate about in his personal life. SKATEBOARDING has nothing to do with dentistry, but but what a cool customer experience to say my dentist is a great skateboarder. My dentist loves this skateboard and he told me that he's grown his business by thirty percent a year just by talking about the fact that he's into skateboarding and showing that when he's in his office and and having the instagram focus on skateboard. There's so much good stuff going on there and I think vulnerability is part of it. This idea that this dentist who you know to three decades ago, is supposed to act as if I'm supposed to act as if I'm this, you know, all put together dentist that conforms to whatever the image of a dentist is. In this idea of like, this comfort of being yourself, is fundamentally attractive to other people. And again, to your point, it doesn't matter if I love skateboarding. I love the fact that he loves what he loves and he wears it on his sleeve and he is who he is going exactly. And then so you have a choice. What's behind you in the in the office? Is it all of your wonderful dental degrees? That's exactly what every other dentist does, or is it a couple of skateboards or pictures of you skateboarding? I mean, to me the difference is clear and to me I know what I would sign up for. As long as he's a good dentist. I'd much sure rather have the skateboarder than than the the button down all business. I went to Harvard guy totally. You've been super generous with your time. I want to ask you, or at least get your response to a few quotes from the book that are all kind of around a theme before we get to our standard closes. That is that? Okay, it sounds good. Okay, cool. So there's an underlying theme in the book we've it's been kind of at the tip of the conversation as we've gone and I've been thinking about it a lot, which is all of this. Is just how we make people feel. Like that's what this is all about. And so I want to read a few quotes and just get your get your reaction to it. A fandom business is human centered instead of data obsessed. A number can be a ceiling if a person is too focused on it and it alone. We see many consumers becoming more and more distant from brands that rely entirely on automated processes. And what I'm getting here is like the data obsession, focus on numbers, automation versus human centered and focusing on the process, not just the outcome. Like what is the role of feeling in all of this to you, and and and what kind of pushback have you gotten about quantification of these things that are difficult to quantify? Yeah, good, good series of questions. So I think you're right that this is very much the human connection. It is very much a feeling. I mean, you know your theme and what this podcast is about. It's a customer experience. And that's not to say that you don't use data, that you don't use technology. You certainly can. You may remember, or one of the stories in the book that I absolutely love is a company called me UNDY's and they're an underwear subscription company. So it's completely data driven in the sense that they sell...

...underwear and you buy as subscription, so you get a new pair of underwear every month, and so it's highly data driven in that once you subscribe, you know they got to take your credit card. Every month they have to send you a link to the available underwear that you can choose for that particular month. They know your size, they know which style you like, whether it's boxes or briefs or whatever it is, and so very, very, very data driven on the back end. But that's just to drive the humanity because they love sharing customers stories, they love sharing photos of their customers in their underwear. They have video of their customers in their underwear and they have just a fun vibe, you know there. Their tagline is ten million happy butts and going strong I mean that's just fun and human and interesting. So I don't think it's an either or but I do think that so many companies are only obsessed with numbers and not obsessed with the humanity of it. And I think in our world where there's so much more data, I mean you log into Netflix or whatever video you service you used and it's so data driven that you don't see films outside of the ones that are similar to what you've seen in the past. I think that's wrong. I think that, yes, you should be able to see films similar to what you have, but that should be a choice. It shouldn't be that you're that's the default that you can't get away from. You know, I I watched a number of documentaries, especially some music documentaries, when I first subscribed to Netflix. I can't get away from them now. Every time I log in a Netflix they're showing me the same damn thing. And so, yeah, algorithms are important, but they can't be the soul driver of how an organization communicates with customers. Great response. We will wind down on that. I appreciate your time so much. It's been it's been great. It's absolute pleasure for me. I hope you've enjoyed yourself and I know people of course, get tons of value out of out of the conversation. I know they will get value out of Fan accracy to when they pick it up and read it. I think there's an audiobook as well. Yeah, and Rico and I read the Audio Book Ourselves. So there's audiobook and ebook format if you're into that, and then good old fashioned hardcover. Love it. But and the book. The book premiered as a Weld's re journal best seller, so it's done really well. Really happy about that. Yeah, well deserved. Before I let you go, couple things. I would love to give you the chance to think or mentioned someone who's had a positive, if impact on your life or your career and to give a shout out to a company that maybe you haven't mentioned already. The really appreciate for the experience they deliver for you as a customer. Sure. So, Tony Robbins wrote the forward to fan accracy. Tony's my friend. I've spoken at Tony Robins business mastery events for six years now, between two and four events a year around the world, and you know he's a giant among public speakers and the fact that he has me for two hours on his stage several times a year, that he was willing to write the forward to my book is He's a true mentor and friend and I appreciate that. A company I totally admire that has a fabulous customer experience is called Grain surfboards. They make wooden surfboards and for those of you who are looking on video, there is my grain surfboard that I make. I made that surfboard. So what's cool about the customer experience there is you can either buy a wooden surfboard that they make in their factory or you can go and make the wooden surfboard in their factory with them yourself. It takes four days. It's amazing and I mean who does that? WHO allows you into their factory to let you make their product with them? And I just love them for... It's called grain surfboards or in York Maine. So you can buy a wonderful wooden surfboard, sustainable for the environment, beautiful, or you could even make one yourself. Yeah, I love it's great story in the book. It is really fun to read and I love the reaction of the folks at grain that we're like yeah, we just we just get so fired up when it comes time to have one of these, you know, customers come in and make boards with us. Thing just again. It just speaks to the fantocracy and as far as community goes, of course, Tony Robbins, he said, is a giant. I want to give a couple things, which is not something that I always do on the show, but but your appearance here with me, and thank you again so much for your time, was triggered in part by a previous podcast guest, Samantha Stone, who is kind enough to send me a copy of fan accuracy, signed by both you and your daughter, and Hanley and Joseph Jaffe, previous podcast guests here on the customer experience podcast, whose work, like your own, David, was very, very influential with me at a very important time in my life and career, and and a guy named Jakenzo, who said that visionaries don't see the future, they see the present much more clearly, and that's how I think of your work, David. If very kind of very kind of you to say so. That's a cool quote too. Yeah, it is a's in a sharp dude. If people want to follow up. We already mentioned the book and the Digital Book in the Audiobook, but if people want to connect with you some other way, where would you send them? So we've got a really well done site at wwwfacccom. There's videos, there's infographics that you can download, images, all sorts of cool stuff. They're to give you all all kinds of information about fantoccuracy. On on twitter and Instagram, I am DM Scott. That's D M Scott, and if you want to connect with me on Linkedin, please do awesome. Thank you so much and David. By the way, for listeners, David, of course, was kind enough to move his camera around frequently throughout the episode and I will find all of those moments and several others and they'll be available at bombombcom slash podcast, where you can see video clips and get roundups on these episodes. Thank you so much for your time, David, and thank you so much for listening. Thanks even clear communication, Human Connection, higher conversion, these are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance. So pick up the official book, Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcasts.

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