The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

66. Restoring The Human Factor To Fulfill The “Big CX Dream” w/ Ben Smithwell


Basically, CX is in a pretty bad state. Stagnating macro studies on customer experience like the CXI metric are just one indicator…


In other words, the so-called “Big CX Dream” has failed to live up to its billing. 


In this episode, we talked about some of the soft spots and even illusions in the modern Customer Experience movement… Ben Smithwell joins us on The Customer Experience Podcast! 


Ben is the Director and CX/Service Design Principal at Comotion and the Director and CX/Service Design Strategist at Smithwell. 


What we talked about:

- The Spock vs. Kirk customer experience battle

- The evidence showing that the Big CX Dream has failed to live up to its billing

- The tendency to treat CX as an ideology rather than a discipline

- The tool-led rather than expertise-driven nature of CX

- The human factor that can help fulfill the Big CX Dream


Check out this resource we mentioned during the podcast:


- Ben’s TEDx Talk about removing bullies


- My TEDx Talk about the Flight Back to the Face 


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

If you look at the battles, become more customer centric. It feels me it's a battle teams. Who might says I call it the spot in the analogy. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Today we're going to be talking about some of the soft spots and even illusions in the modern customer experience movement. Our guest observes several orthodoxies and rule sets that are in play, and some of them are neither helpful nor effective. To this conversation he brings an expertise he's been building for years in CX and CS design and strategy. The oneliner for Comotion, the company he works with we build customer led businesses. The oneliner for Smithwell, his own consultancy, articulating brands through remarkable experience. This one's going to be fun. Ben Smithwell, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, very much for the introduction. Yeah, before we get going, you and I have something approximately in common. We both delivered a TEDX talk at about the same time. Yours was a half a year yeah, yeah, yours was a half a year and forty four hundred miles away from mind and in yours, frankly, was, I think, more impactful than mine in the way that you delivered it. And it was about bullying as an epidemic in the workplace. And you know, people can watch for the details. I'll drop a link. If you visit Bombombcom podcast, I'll drop a link, just like I drop video clips and other elements in around this episode so people can watch to get the content. But you did a great job drawing a parallel between bullying with your daughter at school and bullying in the workplace, and so he had some very specific pauses. You had to walk away from the MIC. Like you created a very powerful experience there. Just talk about that talk, how you prepared for it, especially from an experiential standpoint point. Yeah, thanks so for I'Ma say that is the most terrifying talk of ever had to deliver, as you yourself no, it's you've got your what ten and eleven minutes to do, you've got a Pretze, you've got a night of stuff. It has to be script. You know, you know, so exactly where you are. I think sick has the some of the subject matter is quite a motive. I find actually very difficult. There was several instance, it is quite embarrassing actually during the talk, of nearly just completely lost in that to stop so as deep breathing through it. It's a topic very close to my heart. Gives a consultant going out of lots of different organizations. If you can, you can smell the toxicity. In some places you can. You can just sense it a mile off and I think it's a it's kind of a scandal that no one's really got their arms around yet, as in too many places. Yeah, it's really interesting. I do...

...encourage folks to go check it out. Do you remember the title of it? If people wanted to search it? It's been Smithwell, ted X, Ted X. I think it was called removing bullifs or something like that. Yeah, it is definitely worth a watch because you raised a number of points that are just too far below the radar in the the status quo, in the power structure inside most organizations prevents anything from really happening until people on the front lines take control over it and change the culture themselves. And so you had a really strong called action there. Any way, great work. Thank you very much. That means a lot to me. Pipe I put a lot of below myself and someone I think that was the tough talk to do. So let's get into it properly as we get into this conversation and I'm excited to hear your perspective on a variety of things, especially against some of those illusions that we operate under. But let's start with your thoughts or characteristics of customer experience. When I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? That's a brilliant question because I think the answer is pop some difficult that it sounds. If you look at the battles become more custom eccentric. It feels me if it's a battle teams who mindsets. I call it the spock in the Kerk analogy. And if you look at, suppose, the way businesses is being set up, the fight fabric constructors and the way we run discipline of labor, etc. Etc. It's very it's very post industrial revolution. I caught the spot. Orientation, where a lot of it is today, is still very driven, for good reasons, by logic, by rigger by numeracy, by stoicism. I always good things, which are wonderful characteristics. They actually need to be there the problems. That starts to feel a little cold, it lacks a little emotion. When the agenda starts to shift from that. Tools actually need to double down on providing value for human beings, that orientation becomes less useful. It's always the interplay between the two. Were trying to find a balance in the new economy. So I think that's quite a rambling long answer to your question. I think that's fundamentally what we're talking about. That I really like the analogy. I like the way you drew it out. I think even even if someone who's not a hardcore star Trek Fan, I could absolutely follow that and it makes perfect sense. Also, before we go too much farther, can you talk a little bit about I know, who does come emotion serve? Who is your customer? What problem do you solve and what does a x strategy and design engagement look like? Yeah, sure, so we serve lots and lots of divid industries. So we work within financial services. We've worked the props public sector as well. We've done stins in the retail leisure I guess, if I'm honest, whilst every sector has its own particular problems and problem statements, I think a lot of it all comes down to the same set of problems around how do we continuously provide value to the custom or the students or the patient or the citizen on an ongoing basis and stretched our ordization around delivering that consistently. I guess customers and Trists seat, but actually baking it in such Ada it...

...reorients to day of the organization. That's that's really what we're about there. So I sup back to the spot and the Kirk being and the Yang. The second part of good question around a customer experience strategy. We can do all the logic, the rigger, the thinky stuff, the quantity stuff, the numbers, all that stuff. I think where we come into our own is actually on the softer side of things. For thing is a terrible term for it, it kind of does it down. We spend a lot of time culturally help me our clients to re Orion, I think, to face the fear of change in front of them and these kinds of things. So, if I'm completely honest, I think the best work we do is probably into personally, the strategy itself is always a hygiene factor to us. That's almost easy bit, I think helping human beings through a period of change. I think that's really are and the science and the craft of customer experience. Gosh, I love that you went straight to the to the human side of it, in the behavior change, the perspective change. You know, in a lot of the work that we do here at bomb bomb, you know we're trying to do the same thing and I see it all the time any transformation and change management, etc. Do you have any tips? Like you seem very oriented toward the human side of things, with full and proper respect for the kind of data driven side in the strategy side. Do you have any tips from working inside a range of different organizations and, I assume, a range of personality types? You know, how do you get through the people to help drive that? You know the change has to come from within. How do you help? I feel like you can't probably rationalize people into some of the change thing. Did you need to like you emote them in like do you have any tips for people that are responsible for changing other people's perspectives in behavior? Yeah, that's a really good question actually. So have to answer that in two ways. I think there has to be an emotional side of things and that's almost an easier one to talk to, and so we will do a lot with people around particularly exact boards, around storytelling, trying to help them Aligne I think, psychologically and also as a group, around a particular vision of the future. Again, without alignment at the top of organization you things can fall apart very quickly. You can invest a lot of money and just waste it. So we double down on that. I think one of my observations round the whole cxpiece, and I think the customer experiences a profession pieces that. So this this rigger, is actually missing from out of the ECAGENCY. See, it's as if people have swallowed the humans pill but forgot about the rigger as well, and so a lot of the work the big corporates, where it fails, and often it does fail, unfortunately, is that people haven't set out right at the beginning of their journey, of their transformation journey, to prove out the Roy of the experience itself. So, for instance, here, what is the total cumulative value of the leaky bucket at the moment? How much money we're losing from simply being rubbish? How many customs are we turning away? What is the impast right now today, when you can start a quantify those things out? I think that's satisfies you the spot part of the equation for organization. So I think...

...for all the rhetoric around X as a discipline about human beings, behaviors and emotions, which okay, it is, fundamentally an organization within any sector really only cares about money. A lot of business they care about money, they care about the bottom line. If you do not satisfy the corporates requirement to see things through a financial lends, you can you're making money or saving money. You've probably lost already. And I think this is what a lot of customer experience professionals are forgetting to do today. And I think a lot of the failure endemic in sex transformations is actually one of the simpast I see is people's, I think, misstep right and the start of the transformative journey into let's do sing great for customers rather than sitting back saying this is the size of the prize, but this is when I need to double down on it. Yesterday. So I think there's a there's a miscommunication out in the whole industry. Even in that answer I hear the spark and Kirky in in Yang in there and and the storytelling, by the way. I mean, if you really want to speak to people and connect to people in a meaningful way, that rigger in the beginning to say, you know, what is the harm being done now with the status quo and what is the potential upside financially if we make the transformation? I mean that's just part of the story. That is going to help people be drawn into the transformation so that they're bought in not just cognitively or intellectually, but that they're also brought in emotionally. This is it. What's in it for you? You know, what do you want to get out of this? How do you want to be famous? We asked feel that constantly. How do you want to be famous? What you want to leave your Malcolm, if you don't talk to again, the rational spock or and take the emotional context of say the exact not just the exact but everyone beneath as well. How do you wrap that into a story, into a vision that people can buy into? But also on that person whatever, what does it mean for your career? It's almost like a trumver that if you can't tick all the boxes, you can find very, very difficult to, I think, authentically get by, and I think it's the thing around authenticity that I think we would observe a lot of CX efforts are. They go off a bit half cocked. There's some investment and they'll move a few steps forward and then they'll stall and then they'll palm more and more investment, probably not really give the desire to own and think will start to red falter over time. So you need to keep a breast of the humans all the while when you go into these organizations. Typically, what teams are you working with in other stages to this type of you know, obviously there's a I'm imagining this, so correct me where at my imagination is off. There's probably some level of a discovery phase where you're doing some of the quantification you're talking about and figuring out you know who's who, what's what, what is the state of affairs, you draw out a plan for the transformation, you probably get buying internally from, you know, the decisionmaker or your main champions internally, who ever brought you in for the engagement, and then you start executing. Is that the approximate structure and what teams inside and organization are you typically engaging in this transformation? And another great question. So I think transformation be approached in many may different ways and I guess there is.

Unfortunately, there's no one size fits all template for it. Obviously, being consults are hard. We have ten million different one tools and methodize and frameworks and journeys you can go through, but it has to be tailored to the individuals. In terms of the structure of it. If you're looking at a ner CX strategy, I think some of the stage you've listed there, you know, they make a lot of sense. But I think the that's what's the real proof. The pudding is in the eating and it's how you respond to things as you go through that journey. I mean it is a journey and when we speak to our clients we will say that they will be blood, snart, sweat and tears. We guarantee that and that's factually a Lim and thing. You. How much do you want this? Because this will be difficult. But there is usually you're some kind of a discovery phase and you're trying to figure out what the world looks like. What's shifted in their universe? Has the market shifted as something getting disrupted? What is it about the customer? They change of their expectation shifted? So there's lots to unpick there. But actually, if hit on saying really interesting I think what the wrong approach would be from experiences, to align all of your information, form at a prom statement and then land the big, big deck on the desk. That absolutely does not work. It's not very human. Being centric, we find that actually have to review your plans on a much, much more frequent basis to respond to things as they happen. And so when we talk about sex strategy, we actually use it through more of an Agile Lens. I think you have to have a pretty concrete vision. You have to aligne around it. You know some kind of plan to get there. These have just enough will room to change your plans as a when you need to throw out that journey again back to the the CX. As a profession side of things. If you're not, as a function, constantly arenting around, where is the value today? Where is the value tomorrow? Where's the value next quarter, you'll probably find that the organization will start to lose belief quite quickly. Yeah, the agile approach makes perfect sense. As opposed to dumping a giant plan on and just executing it exactly as designed. I think the agile approach makes so much more sense. You refer to something that that I was hoping to talk about a little bit because you're far more experienced in school than I am by many, many miles, or measures, however you want to measure it. You know, you talked about like like frameworks or rule sets or orthodox he's like different approaches to x. What are some of those? Where do we get them? How do we judge them? Is there one that you prefer? Does again, a terrific question, I think. To answer that, I think I would have to put my stall Outli and say I have a problem with a lot of the core up orthodoxies of customer experienced think as a profession today, I think the problem to an extend is the orthodoxies and the degree to which we stick to them. It seems to becoming a very, very fixed profession with quite a shallow tool kit. I'll probably come back to a little bit later. So, for instance, we would observe a lot of customer experience professionals to do a lot of things like journey mapping. That's absolutely fine. I wouldn't take that away from anyone. The... thing I would observe, which is one of the the central axioms of customer experience manage of the moment, is that people are doing these things, whether they're really questioning is this going to give us fair name is just the most valuable thing we could be doing right and now. There's no point spending six months mapping your whole world, doing a load of primary research if, fundamentally there's an obvious problem. Stay went over there somewhere in your let's say your service centers or particular part of a digital interactions where you could save several millions of pounds tomorrow. Why would you start with the I think, the output rather than the outcome? They're craning on of outputs, but they're not designing their activity around delivering hard business metric driven outcomes that businesses fundamentally want from them. So I think when it comes to the tool kit, I think there's a lot of stuff that's been born stolen. I can see. It's a lot of stuff from the kind of lean design tool get. There's some stuff from lean sub stuff from agile. Lot of stuff again beg bar and stolen from the world of service design and design thinking, etc. Etc. What I would observe is that the tool kid is getting smaller and people in bedding deep and ceasing to think about how could we do things better and find a lot of the rhetoric with in the CX community nowadays is actually quite bland. It's vanilla, it's boring, I'll be honesty. Than to me the only sexy thing in CX is talking about how much money you've made, how much cost you say, or things that that's what the business cares about. This is a business oriented discipline. I think it's a secondary observation here around the way that business itself has enveloped sex as a discipline and what it has done with it. Back to this kind of post industrial revolution tailorist mindset. They're terrified of ambiguity and, as a result, they want certainty, they want stuff to look rigorous and numerous with with articles of certainty. They like process to like to put stuff a little boxes so we can organize it and think the world is less chaopic than is. A group of people who are thought leads, are experts in an area will start to do some great work. Everyone wanted on it. They'll start to invest in it heavily, but over time the corporate mentors will take over and the rhetoric will turn from how can you deliver exceptional value from our customers through to actually, how could we turn this into a five step process where we start off with this, then we go to that. So the very nature of organizations themselves, it seems to dictate the customer experience of profession will do, and I think empirically as by the way, get worse over time. We seem to the last couple of years I think things are starting to get the worse across across lots of different locations in the globe in terms of customer experience, which seems preposterous. I've seen another set of longing tudeal metrics being measured across in the UK and Europe, suggesting the same that customer experiences are probably getting worse. I think that says a lot. I think the profession needs to stand up and probably look at itself in the and think about how it could respond to this.

Can you go deeper and the tool set? You said it's narrowing, but what are some of the tools and how do those help in or harm this the current state of affairs? Yeah, it's a good one, I think. Let me let me think about the measurement tool kit. That's a good one to start with. Obviously every Cherry Organization we speak to is measuring lots and lots of stuff. Again, back to the spock mentality. You're trying to wrap her arms around the chaos and Abigutu ambiguity of the world. So you measure stuff. It's like a security blanket of numbers, and things like MPs, for instance, get one of the the central tenets and axioms of customer experience management that NPS is, and these kind of Lord the Rings ask metrics to rule them all, and so everyone adopts it again, broadly, without thinking about it. They'll stick it in. Asking the question in a slight strange way at a slight a different time, Thans optim in the customer journey, and then you'll collect data and you'll try and extract meaning from it, but it from fundamentally get you any closer to understanding, a suppose, the human experience at the end of your company's product or or service. So I think what the central things right now is trying to suppose to re educate people around the fact that it's great to measure stuff, but that can only tell you us both so much of the story. I think what observed at the moment is a lot of professionals are, I think, turning x into I call it quantitative pornography. You're going to measure. Lots of staff have some good rule is stats and graphs and things like that that a lot of the tool can I'd like to see people adopting more deeply would be probably around qualitative research and the key mucky sleeves rolled up and set of activities and tools and methods they can deploy to try and understand people on a deeper, more emotional behavioral level. So again here we are at the Union Ying where we do need the the hard, the hard quant stuff, but we also need the quality of research in which kind of answers my follow up question is, you know, I if a lot of the basic survey type data, behavior observation that's highly quantifiable. If those are not enough, where do we get what we need? And it sounds like qualitative research to there are particular approaches to qualitative research that you appreciate more than others. It sounds reductive, but I think people just need to understand what qualitative research is. I think, I'd say, pray one thousand nine hundred and ninety five percent of six people. I meet a Prett people in business, I mean or you between you, and they can work the way around your set of stats, of charts and the metrics and make an interpretation based on that. When it comes to human beings, I think it's much more difficult. But I would observe. Actually, if you give people training, which we always do over pretty much any any clients engagement, we have gift field training and basic qualitative research technique. So you how you would set up hypotheses to test, how you would understand what kinds of you we want to speak to and in what manner and what contextual interview looks like, what ethnography is and how you can do some basic stuff around that, and then how you can take different ambiguous, wonderful...

...human qualitative sources overlay some quantitative stuff and try and you simulate what that means. I think that is one of the core skills that that seems to be missing in contemporary business. Get a lot of coolar comfortable with numbers. The human element of the things. It really, really terrifies people. So I was being to ahead of science for a very big sort of multi billion corporate because last year, and he told me, I don't make your sleep, he didn't believe in qualitative research because it was small sample and therefore is misleading, in the waste of time, and that, as she is actually quite common, I find in business circles. So if there's one thing I could recommend to people, not just sex people but I think, just business people in general, is to acquaint yourselves with the basics and the fundamentals of qualitative research. It's probably on the single most powerful things you could start those. Your quant will tell you what is happening. Your qualitator stuff will help you approximate you why something's happening, and that stuff is absolute gold tust. You can really work with that a I love working with quality of research and be you know, I definitely buy your you know, here's the what, but then there's the so wire or even better yet, the why so and in quality to help build that bridge. But you know any any additional cautions about making sure that you know when you're speaking to an executive like the gentleman you just referred to? How do you how do you walk that down to that there's that confidence that people need to proceed base down the learning. There's a brilliant question. I try to reframe it just just a little bit. If we're talking about doing insight and Research and bouncing off qual and quant your entirely right, because you could drive a bus through some qualitative research and there will be ambiguity and subjectivity. Definitely. If I reframe it as not just insight or research, but also change it to be discussion around insight and design, so rather applied insights, I can change the conversation and say actually, we will do some qualitas stuff, and you are correct, because it will pack some assumptions, it will be lucky, it'll be greasing, we won't know what to do with it. But if we view it through a design Lens, which is we take inside and do something with it, what we can do is take all of that input and create some hypotheses. And what we're going to do next we're going to test it, you know, on the front line with the propositions, with light touch power together by sticky tape. Only when something has had some kind of interface with a customer do you know whether it's broadly true or not. And that actually applies to quantitate of stuff as well. It's just a quantitative stuff. It often looks more reliable and it can be statistically in scientifically reliable up front. But if we reframe the conversation around let's do something with the insight, that's test some hypotheses and continually get closer to the truth, that's how you can get the value out of these kinds of approaches. And so again, what we're doing as re orienting from a world where you commissioned one piece of Equality Big Bang Research and do...

...the one giant conservator rule more through to what we call minimum viable research, or MVR, which is where you you take a little nibble and you see what you can interpret based on the context another data point you have. You test it out phaps of the different piece of research, but very, very like touch swinging some customers see if it rises or falls. And so if you take you a much more agile approach to the way you learn about environment or a customers need, we find that that will bring you and how to quantify truth, but it'll bring you closer to the truth over time, much, much quicker if you just rely on one piece of evidence. So smart. I'm really glad I ask that and it's, of course, completely in line with some of the other themes that you've already spoken to, specifically agile and and I love the mvur approach as well. You're obviously helping a lot of organizations, but you also have a cautionary approach to you know that the big CX dream, CX as an ideology, the corporatization of CX as a discipline. You know you've offered some very fair criticisms as well. What is the what is the next five to ten years of x? Where is the best hope? How do we recover from any of the weaknesses that you've observed in the way that we're approaching this today? Think at high level we need to create professionals who have comfortable with dealing with ambiguity and what I mean is that again back to your spock and Kerk orientations? Everything we do is ambiguous. We are selling products and services to human beings. We can never truly know what's going through their minds. It's simply impossible. If we run away from ambiguity, that is when CX gets worse. Okay, when we start to run face first into a misty forest not knowing what's going to happen, that is when you get the best arts, as that's when you can start to create the best strategies. So I suppose the analogy it's if the world is a misty forest. Would observed that customer experienced fresholds are standing around the outside trying to, you measure the density of the fog and perhaps how the trees aren't at they're wondering about what by in the might be in the middle. Sometimes the best thing to do is just run into the forest, and which sounds like good of a maverick approach, but if I rewind over a couple decades of work in this space, that is where you tend to get the best results. You have to hit a PROLEM statement head on and, almost like the super coliberate cern, see what fractures off it and see what happens. That's a great way of learning. So bads things of chaos and order. It's just like a a high level stuff. I think at a lower level of as I mentioned already, I want to see people getting much more comfortable with with qualitative research and understanding human beings. What would I really aspire for there the next five or so years? And this is going to sound really, really unambitious either, but I was trying and tell the truth and I think this is what the truth is going to look like. I think we'll see people hopefully go back to basics, go back to where this whole thing started and why it works and why it should work, doubling down...

...on simple things such as can we create the case for change it? What does the business case look like? Now? I could wax lyricle for a per hours and hours around you the different kinds of tools that becoming our wake and stuff, an ai and ml and stuff like that. That's all fine, but these things don't help until they are in the hands of professionals who know how to use them properly. So I don't think there'll be any great technological fix. I think all the building blocks are in front of US already. It's just about getting back to basics. So the first advice I give any new chief customer officer or health departments or person want to get in to see x particular the style of any transformational journeys. You what are the two three things to make the biggest impact within the next six month or so she'll find a lot of sex departments. If you're not shown you're really strong, several EXP return on the investment within tolls eighteen months, you'll start to be sidelined. People become seconded off into different areas of the business. So double down on the impact. Everything else can wait forget your journey maps in episodas and all the pretty stuff you want to stick on the walls. I want to see a Selfie in front of a spreadsheet showing how much cash they've made for the business or how much cost they're reduced or how much better empirically they made the experience. So I think it's back to basics, move and so good. I like both levels. It's a great way to kind of put a but and on this conversation, which I've enjoyed very, very much. If you, as a listener have enjoyed this conversation. There are a couple other conversations here on the customer experience podcast that you might enjoy, specifically episode fifteen with Joey Coleman, another CX designer and strategist. That one is you have a hundred days to create or lose a lifelong customer. That's Joey Coleman on episode fifteen or Dan Ginghis on episode thirty five. Two keys to creating extraordinary customer experience and it's easier than you might think. So then, I because relationships are our number one core value here at bombomb and here on the show. I'd love to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career. I think would say my dad actually, and he is an engineer by trade. He had nothing to do with what I do. Is a professionally. He still has no idea what I do, but he he was a leader of a company. It's a way back in the s. They went through very difficult period and he was US recession and things are very, very tough, and I remember the thing I learned from him is to treat people well. I think irrespective of the personal consequences, and so what observed in him was that they put the employee first and the customer first and nobody lost a single penny. That shouldn't have. So, whilst it was a really bad situational round, I think it was dealt with with humility and truth and I think I've always sort of taken up with me. So I think doing the right thing as was a commando to assuay the power of that really good. I love this idea of doing the right thing and treating people well, regardless of the consequences to yourself. Doing it in the right spirit is almost as important as just doing it.

So great reference here, and you're one of only a handful of folks who is mentioned a family member, so I really appreciate that as well. How about a company that you respect for the way they deliver for you as a customer? Yeah, this is so. It's one of my favorites at the moment and yeah, it's probably not one a lot of x guys with sites which pretty quite like about that. It's is Aldi. Now you might have heard of them. There are enormous supermarket chain, the very big in Germany and Europe, but fifteen sixteen cent market share in the UK, so they're pretty big deal. The interesting thing with Aldi is that if you walk in there, there is absolutely nothing sexy about it at all. Ethan. It's a mess, you'll pray have palettes on the floor of be part empty boxes everywhere. It is an absolute mess. Is a bit of a jungle sale. But, and this is why I love them as a sort of a CX exemple they know exactly where their customers go there and that's why doesn't pay for extra staff to clean up the floor. It's actually it's who intend suppose. It's quite a rubbish experience. Who you get to the you get to the till, the people fire that stuff through the till so quick you can't actually pack your bag. So the experience analities. You have to bundle stuff into your trolley, but walk speed. Then you have to take it outside and pack your bags. So it's not so ton but, and this is a big but, when you come to pay, you see the figures comp on the screen, you walk out of our the I guarantee clicking your heels. You've absolutely made a wonderful purchase, because they sell stuff that is so cheap and such good quality as an absolute no brainer. If they could tie up the stores, they could have proper shelves and get the get the guys in stored where the proper uniform of time and really make it look great. But actually that, I have an impact on the prices and that's not what Aldea is about. So they know who they are, they know who that customer is. They play to that high equation. Absolutely dauts fantastic example. We all have to play our own game. We have to know who our customer is. We want to optimize kind of the value equation for them, or even maximize it for them, and so I love this idea of like you know, we're not going to conform to all of the norms and standards that were, you know, I'm air quoting here, supposed to to follow and supposed to honor. We're going to play our game for our customer and our customers appreciate us for it. So good, great example. Hey been if people enjoyed this conversation, they want to follow up with you or Comotion, where would you send people to learn more and to connect with you? Well, thesest way is just find me on Linkedin. I'm on there all the time. So Ben Smith will work fist our website, which is wwwcom so CMO, tio and ALCOM. We hang out one of those two plays. Don't very active on Linkedin, so come and say hi to me, reach out to been on Linkedin. Be sure to add a note. I always appreciate when someone adds a note to a connection request for me. It just gives me some context and and if you're listening to this, you...

...enjoyed it, you want to learn more, you want to check out that tedex talk. We put up posts on all of these episodes at Bombombcom podcast been. Thank you so much for your time. I really really appreciate everything you brought here and thank you sim so much. She was having this is being wonderful. I've really enjoyed us. This a real privilege to had to join us the thank you very much indeed. Clear Communication, Human Connection, higher conversion, these are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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