The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

70. Mental Health in Sales: More Than 40% Struggle w/ Jeff Riseley


Think of five salespeople you know. Imagine their names and faces. Odds are, at least two of them are struggling with their mental health.


But no one’s really talking about mental health in sales, even though survey research has shown that over 40% of salespeople struggle with mental health.


In this episode, I interview Jeff Riseley, the founder of the Sales Health Alliance, about his passion to create more awareness around mental health in sales — and to help salespeople and sales leaders navigate stressful sales situations in a mentally healthy way to increase performance.


What we talked about:

- The ROI of investing in mental health

- The difference between having “luck” and “feeling lucky”

- The impact of setting sales quotas your reps aren’t likely to hit

- Thinking about salespeople as “corporate athletes”

- Jeff’s personal story of mental health awareness and advocacy


Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Start Talking PDF

- Sales Gratitude Journal PDF

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

If they're emotional, if they're notable to take care of their mental health, they're struggling with anxiety, depression,what have you. That's going to have a direct impact on a customerexperience that they're delivering on a day to day basis. The single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment,achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. Thisis the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Think offive salespeople you know, think of their names, see their faces. Fivesalespeople. Odds are at least two of them are struggling with their mental health, but no one's really talking about it, in part because sales is such acompetitive environment. If you're a regular listener to this show, you knowthat an exceptional employee experience is a necessary precursor to an exceptional customer experience.So we should be talking about the health and wellbeing of our team members.Plus, from an Rli standpoint, the World Health Organization reports that every onedollar invested here provides a four dollar return on improved health and productivity. Today'sguest has been a sales consultant and outbound salesperson and account executive and a salesmanager at companies like indeedcom and crowdbabble. To to address this mental health issuethat he saw in his sales roles, however, he decided to found thesales health alliance to bring this conversation out into the open, to end thestigma, to share best practices and to navigate stressful situations effectively. Jeff Risley, welcome the customer experience podcast. I see you then, really excited tobe here, especially in this time of time and everything that people are goingthrough. So thanks for having me on. I'm really, really looking forward toit. Yeah, let's start right there. I mean we're recording thison Thursday, March nineteen and I'm in Colorado Springs. You're in Toronto.From a just from a general standpoint, what's going on with regard to thecoronavirus pandemic in your world, houses affecting you or your community or Your Business? Yeah, like it's it's it's crazy right now. There's my business specifically, has all been primarily focused on doing in person, leading in person workshopsat companies and helping sales to will working sales people hands on help the navigatestressful situations in the memory healthy way. But you know when, when?When everything is moving to work from home and social distancing is really a key, important, a key thing that I've Bun us to focus on right now. Yeah, I've been spending the last week trying to pivot and reposition kindof more virtual offerings. But then it's also there's also really great and awesomethings happening as well, like it's getting can spend more time with my girlfriendshe's work from home. That's really exciting to see. I probably normally talkto my parents once every week. Now it's kind of once every day ortwo to check in to make sure that they're doing OK. So it's alot of change, but there's also so many really positive things that they're happening. That's that's really exciting to see at the same time. So it's goodand bad same time. If that answers to answers your question. Yeah,absolutely it does. I've seen a lot of the same thing and I thinkyou know, as we get into this conversation, people are going to understandwhy you immediately see the silver lining in the situation. You know, Ithink it's part of what you teach, part of what you've learned, andcertainly it's just a healthy way to go about things in general to see thepositive in it. I know I've experienced the same seeing just spending more timewith my wife and my son because we're all just around a lot more often. So let's start where we tend to start here on the show, whichis, you know, customer experience. When I say customer experience, whatdoes that conjure for you? What are its thoughts? It's care what thoughtsdo you have about it? What characteristics does it have? Yes, Ithink it's I think it's very similar. So I did a US class aswell our time and I think, I...

...think the UX user experience and customerexperience. It's it's everything that the customer is going to be thinking, feelingand doing at every step, at every interaction that they're having your brand inyour business. That can be with a salesperson or someone from your company present, or it can be even them just exploring a piece of that piece ofmail that they yet are exploring your website or an add it includes everything andas how they're experiencing your brand from their perspective, looking at you from theirperspective, which is going to be different for every single person. There's goingto fite no one shoe fits all. Yeah, really good observations there.Of course, it is every touch point, including some that you just put outinto the world, like a direct mail piece or even, you know, something physical that's sitting on a shelf that gets picked up six months later. That's part of it. And then of a key piece that you reallyoffered there that I love and that we I don't think we emphasize enough,is the fact that the customer gets to define it. They own it,they get to say what it is and what it isn't at. All wecan do is do our best to to guide them to what we want itto be, for sure, and I guess the one of the one otherthing that I'd add to that as well as its like when a customers isexperiencing your brand and going through your process, their emotions are going to be changingdue to their own environment. So if it's a phone call from froma salesperson after the Centra prospect of the customer has had, you know,a really bad day, you need to be consider it back if I'm passionateto their situations in their environment, and that's one thing that's going to bechanging. No matter who's experiencing your brand in there, it is going tobe different for everyone based on their own external environment. So I love it. It conjures. Are It conjures, a word that we use often.I feel like it's a very positive thing that it's bubbled up in popular businessculture. Things like empathy, you know, meeting people where they are and havingthe emotional intelligence to assess it and start the conversation. Meeting them wherethey are, stea can move forward in a productive way that, you know, that honors their situation in the media in immediate sense. Definitely. Let'sbuild the bridge then. So this mental health issue that you're spending a lotmore time focused on, learning about, teaching other people, guiding other people. Where do you see the intersection of customer experience and this mental health issue, specifically in sales? To put a simply, this overlap is right inthe middle. If your sales people, if your customer success people, whoeverit is, is working your company any any employee, if they're emotional,if they're not able to take care of their mental health, they're struggling withanxiety, depression, what have you. That's going to have a direct impacton a customer experience that they're delivering on a day to day basis. Somy work is really focused on how do you improve the input that's going intoyour organization every single day when you're working with different sales people in different salesleaders? Everyone is so focused on things like how many dolls are it makes, how many meetings they booked, how much revenue they've closed. These areall output metrics, like they use these leading in lading light indicators to measurea healthy pipeline. But what they're failing to remember is that all of thesemetrics are being driven by how anxious the reck that they sleep while, arethey eating right? Are they depressed? When they do encounter a negative situationor stressful situation on the sales floor, they know how to navigate that inthe mentally healthy way where they respond positively, and all of these different input metricsare going to have a direct impact on not only their daily Kpis asales people love, love and Hay, but also the real metrics that areimportant. How happy is the customer experience that they're delivering that on a dayand a day of business. Yeah, emotions are absolutely contagious, which I'msure you're acutely sensitive to, and so we do confer our state of beingon the people that we interact with.

And this idea of you know whatI what I the vision I had as you were sharing that is just thisidea of doing what we can as organizations and his leaders and his managers tomake sure that we're bringing whole people to work and that we're supporting whole peoplein and by whole I just mean like complete and fully healthy, you know, physically and mentally and emotionally. So the work that you're doing is reallyimportant. I think what I would like to do in this conversation, Iread this really nice piece that you wrote called start talking forty thoughts, tipsand ideas, to start talking about mental health and sales, and so Ithink what we'll do for the conversation is to just go through. I pickedout six or eight of them people. I'll include the link. When peoplego to Bombombcom podcast, I have overviews and video clips and the embedded audiofrom all these conversations. So obviously link up the PDF there, but Ithink before we get there, you know, I introduced a little bit the scopeof the problem. So if you want to just do like a highlevel overview of kind of what led you in this direction from a personal andprofessional standpoint in any context you want to give to this situation before we kindof get into maybe some particulars. Yeah, absolutely so it's always best to findwhen, when, when people ask this question. To go back tothe beginning, how this all started, and that was just over ten yearsago. I just taken my first sales role. I was a fresh Fridayuniversity and the sales role I happen to take was in the classic boiler roomtype of sales environment. My worth is an employee and as it as ahuman being was essentially being measured every single day on whether or not it couldbe two hundred dollars a day achieved two and a half hours a talk time. If you weren't closing deals, if you weren't selling effectively, you werelet go pretty quickly. So it was a revolving door of salespeople and that'swhen I really first became familiar with what mental health actually was. I struggledfrom really bad anxiety. I had in the in the middle of the night, really bad panic attacks, suffered from insomnia, drinking and partying way toomuch, and I was after the third time I had a panic attack andof the night that were led me to the hospital where I had to think, wow, like I need to do something about this. So I wentto see my doctor. He prescribed me some anxiety medication that I tried fortwo to two or three months. Didn't really like how it made me feelin terms of how numbed my emotions, disconnected me from my intuition, thingsthat I felt I really needed to be successful within sales, and back then, going to therapy was still highly, highly stigmatized. It just wasn't somethingthat anyone talked about. So I was in this position where I had tohave an honest conversation with myself, where I love to say I love thecamarader of sales. I love everything about it in terms of the rush youget from my closing deal. The High Commission checks everything, but at thesame time I would need to figure out a way to make myself more resilient, to take care of my mental health if I wanted to be in thiscareer long term. And that's where that's where I just started reading and learningand just like everything from habits to neuroscience to kind of how do you redesignyour environment to set you R for success? And over the last ten years,by really knowing it, I just started to do these things to makemyself more resilient, to protect my mental health, and it wasn't fully realizedwhat I had done until summer of two thousand and eighteen. I just launchedmy first sales consulting website and three days later I was diagnosed with testicular cancer, which is just a huge curveball out of left field. And what Irealized was during this new stressful experience in my life, I naturally started toexecute on the same mindsets, the same habits, the same behavior that Iwould to keep myself healthy within sales and protect them outment all the sales duringthis other stressful time going through this this cancer treatment. Thankfully, I'm okayright now and all good, but that's...

...when I sort of have a momentwhere, while like I've learned a lot without realizing it, and I canfeel the pain the salespeople are going through every single day and it's just nota conversation that gets talked of it. So that's when I DIV ited tolaunch the sales health alliance and do my best to start more conversations around thistopic, but to try and share some of the things that I've learned tohelp sales people remain healthy and remain positive and keep the performance at a highlevel. So that's what caught me, caught me here today. Well,the work that you're doing is obviously really important. I appreciate and I'm reallyglad to be able to host this conversation with you and share it with otherpeople. I guess this led to one one more pair of questions prior togetting into some of the specific ideas in this really great guide that you puttogether. You know, for you it was this slow building. You hadthis realization this is not right, this is not healthy, but it resultedin like, I mean not you know, a panic attack that sends you tothe hospital in the middle of the night isn't exactly, you know,the Rock bottom experience that a lot of people experience, but it is avery significant, dramatic and acute event for people who are short of that.You know, what advice do you have for salespeople who are listening saying wheresome of what you offered sounds familiar, they maybe haven't had that really bigAha, wake up moment, the splash of cold water, the slap inthe face or whatever that a cute event is that lets them know that they'renot okay. Like, what are some warning signs of if what you've offeredso far sounds familiar to someone listening but they haven't had that big moment yet, what are some things to watch out for? Yeah, like with withinsales, I think a huge piece that doesn't get talked about enough is there'sa there's a huge drinking culture and party culture that comes along with that.Comes along with working in sales and salespeople. It becomes okay to use drinking asyour crutch and a lot of situations, whether it's celebrating a big deal thatis just closed, whether it's as a work event where there's open bars, or whether it's just after a really tough month where you're burnt out,you're you're fearful, like everything seems to go back to, at least withinsight, the sales teams. In the environments I've worked with, everything seemsto be going back to this is the best coping mechanism for the situation.Everyone arounds you, to around you, is doing it. Your sales leadersor sales managers are supporting you, even encouraging you with team nights out thatinvolved heavy, heavy drinking, and it's really important in those situations to bemindful of what are you actually saying when you say yes to a night outor going to the bar after work or that extra drink, like you're sayinglike. What do you actually say, rather than focusing on what you're sayingYes to? What are you saying note to and what you're saying no towhen you when you're sort of heavily involved in this culture, is you're sayingno to your mental health. You're saying no to waking up the next dayand being productive and and actually being effective on the sales for you're saying noto developing good habits, anything that you're trying, whether it's losing weight,whether it's spending more time with your family, all of these habits that you're tryingto build become extremely difficult and you get caught in this bad habit cyclethat's really tough to break when you're you're in this kind of culture. Sothat's something my girlfriend told me a while ago and it's really resonated. Isis really being mindful of what you're saying no to rather than focusing what you'resaying. I love it. Staying mindful and keeping your priority straight is,I guess, by language to capture that you know what are you saying yesand no to. It's really good. So let's get into this. Youyou created this really nice guide. I took it as something that is meantto be digested over at forty day period,...

...although I took it all down atone time. You did a nice job closing each of these forty thoughtswith, you know, things to think about, things to practice, andso it's meant, I feel like, to be a reflective exercise. SoI don't want to minimize any of it by treating it the way we're goingto in this conversation. Again, I encourage people to read it and practiceit. It's just a really, really nice piece of work. Regardless ofwhether or not you're in sales and regardless of whether or not you feel likeyou're experiencing any anxiety or depression or any of the other maladies that you mightit's still I found it very, very useful, even though I feel prettyhealthy and whole right now in my life. But so it's just a really goodpiece of work. So I want to start with like number three,and I'm just going to quote you here. Luck doesn't exist, but feeling luckydoes. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Like, I know there'sa lot of a lot of people on Linkedin, a lot of like professionalcoaches and that are really focused on on you need to hustle, hustle,hustle, hustle, like you got to be up at four am, nosleep, no rest and recovery. That's how you become successful, that's howyou create luck, and I disagree with a lot of a lot of whatwhat they say. And it comes down to leading a balanced lifestyle where you'rechecking all of your buckets, things that make you happy, things that makeyou emotionally resilient, making sure that you're filling all those buckets each day.And a key piece of that is seeing, is, is perceiving the lucky thingsthat are happening every single day that always tend to get forgotten about orhidden behind these massive waves of negative emotions or negative experiences, like even somethingsmall like someone cutting you off at but as they go through, as they'recommuting home or traffic, and you get stuck on that one thought and thatone thing that happened that you totally miss your kid running out to you atthe end of the day to tell you, you know, what happened in theirday in school, because you're still busy processing you're missing, you know, all of the cool things you saw on your drive home, all thesereally unique things. So that's what I believe feeling lucky is. It's beingable to retrain your brain, through practicing gratitude and building that muscle, tobe able to notice these tiny little bits of things, that things that happenevery day. And the more you do it, the more you start tonotice those things, the more you'll start to feel lucky and, as aresult, start to create more positive experiences for yourself really good from the seventhday or the seventh tip. You offered a couple of stats and I'm justgoing to pair these two together and then I'd love your thoughts and reaction orsome context around what this means. In this conversation. So a two thousandand eighteen report from sales four said that fifty seven percent of sales reps wereexpected to miss their quotas, and in a separate survey, forty one percentof salespeople said missing target has one of the greatest impacts on their mental health. So more than half of people are expected to miss their targets and yetit's a significantly negative experience for sales reps. just talk about I don't how thatcame to be or how to how to resolve that. Yeah, likeit's it's it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy to me that sales teams don't embracefailure and there's this fear of failure in sales when all of the best techcompanies in the world, all the best companies in the world, are builton failure, like they're built unfailing hundreds of thousands of times. And Isure you, I'm sure you see this in in the customer experience and sortof the how you aligned sort of the different different departments within the team.They're all failing consistently and they're falling forward. If you think about any good product, tech product has been built, it's built on micro failures. Ittake place over and over and over again and for whatever reason within sales there'sthis mindset and there's this perspective from organizations...

...and from leadership that sales people justaren't allowed to fail, and it's totally backwards, because I think one ofthe best ways to to learn and on board is through failure. And ifthere's this aspect of fear around it, what happens is the emotional part ofyour brain, the Olympic system, because in fighter flight mode it's constantly firingand that totally shuts down your prefrontal cortex would help, which helps with allthe learning and digestion. So if you have that part of your brain consistentlyfiring all the time, you're not going to be learning your it's that therampup speeds are going to be way longer than they should be. So reallyembrace racing, a fear of failure, failure, making sure that it's okayfor everyone to fail, provided they're doing it in the right way, isa critical part of developing only at a personal level but accelerating at an organizationallevel as well. It's great. Yeah, we have some of that tension hereat bombombing. We set very aggressive goals for ourselves. We're beholding tono one. I mean we're, you know, a bootstrapped company, butwe still set very aggressive goals for the year. And it is this likePhil for I think we do a nice job of accepting it, but wedo set goals that are, you know, sometimes behind reach, even through ourown best efforts, and it's a it's just a challenge, you see, to maintain a respectful environment from day eighteen. You offer this idea thatI love. It's I think it's absolutely true, but I'd love to hearyour take on it. Is that more complex text acts in our sales teamsare like product features. They're easily replicated. You know, if if you andyour sales team by and incorporate, you know, these two new piecesof tech, so can your competitors. And so this is it's this armsrace, but it functionally like product parody, right, if some company releases afeature, another company can can knock that feature off. And so whatyou point to is that the real differentiator is the people. Just F foundthat a minute. Yeah, like it's been a crazy it's been a crazyten years. Like when I started in sales. I was like, andthey can't see, kind of my chest, but I was. I was asitting at a table as calling off a stack of paper leads that wereprobably this high and I would just literally burn and Churn burnit trying to gothrough and make that meet the dials. And sales force at the time was, you know, roughly worth fifteen dollars a share. Now it's worth wedon't know what it's worth today with everything that's going on, but when,but it's forth you know, like a hundred eighty five dollars a share,whatever whatever it was when when I last luck and it's just been this crazyarms race of sales enablement technologies exploding into the sales world, all in themindset of how do we increase efficiency in generate higher revenue? And it's givenorganizations a few things. It's given them the opportunity to build things like amachine. As much as I love our engineering brothers and sisters and the bookslike predictable revenue, I think their influence has gone a little too far intohow do we build sales organizations and treat people like the same way that webuild machines and build products and as much as you know, and building codeis perfectly logical. Sales people are messy and emotional and they're being forced intothese sales machines that are a mix of complex tech products with growing sales targetsand being whipped harder and harder to perform with no break and rest and recoverybuilt in, and they're on this highway of high performance and they're never beinggiven the opportunity to rest and recover and be given the training and the toolsto stay healthy while they're while they're sprinting. So, yeah, like it's thenext especially with what's happening right now.

Like the companies that are going towin out, the sales seems that are going to win out, arethe ones that remain mentally healthy and remain positive and remain engaged in productive sothat they can use all of this great technology that's entered the market in thebest way possible, and the ones that are fearful, the ones that aren'tsupported, it won't matter if you have a brand new technology, it's justnot going to be effective. Yeah, really good. I think the peopleare the differentiator. Employee experience begets customer experience. Customer experience ultimately is thegreat differentiator for all of this kind of parody that we have. And so, you know, it rhinds me. We don't need to discuss it.But but for people listening, day twenty is specifically about the workplace experience,which is, you know, this kind of employee experience piece. That thetheme runs through her entire conversation here. So let's go to thirty six onthe only a couple more here. Let's go to thirty six, where Ialready mentioned one of the World Health Organization stats. But, you know,just speak to the Roi of addressing this. I feel like, you know,there might be a sales manager or an executive listening who saying like yeah, this is interesting. I guess we should maybe pay more attention to ourpeople. But in terms of kind of formalizing and in your guide does agreat job offering some ways to kind of formalize and operationalize this. This isrespectful approach to humans and things that, but there's a cost. There's anopportunity cost of you know, if I'm going to get people's attention and takepeople's time, what I'm going to do with it? If I'm going totake some financial resources and invest them, but there's very obviously a return oninvestment. I think people that are relationship oriented and human oriented already see thebenefit and know it intuitively. But for anyone that's sitting on the fence,like I don't know if it's worth my time to invest time and money intothis, talk about the Roe side of taking care of our people in thisway. Yeah, so. So it's a good question and it's one thatI've been asked a couple times and and I have to have to be transparently. This is this is a new frontier for organization's mental health has been sostigmatized that conversations and the reporting and the data around this stuff is just startingto become more apparent, like at a high level, when you look atall of like the mental health data, like the number you quoted. Everydollar invested in leads to Ford, our return on improved mental health and productivity, and there's like this organizations that are seeing, like I know Bell Bell, Canada is seeing. It's been a long, longer cycle, but they'reseeing this type of return on their mental health programs. They're built in.But to be honest, it's a new frontier and the best way that Ican describe it to people that are that are on the fence is you wantto start thinking about salespeople as corporate athletes. When you think about the best athletesin the world that know how to use stress to their advantage, theygo to the gym, they put their muscles under stress, they let themrecover so two days later when they're pushed into overtime or they land a littlefunny and tweet their ankle, they've use stress to build their muscles to supportthem under these, you know, unforeseen circumstances down the road and, similarto athletes that take really get to care of their physical body, the mostimportant sale thing that a sales person has, if they need to take care ofis their mind. They're not out there playing basketball, playing football.They need their mind to be sharp to be able to pick up on thosereally tiny queues that fires are offering, customers are offering, and figure inways to support them as as effectively as possible. And that's a mental healthplay. That's how doing things at an organization level, doing things at aleadership level, helping people on an individual...

...level to learn the skills to beable to navigate and manage stress. These are things that are going to helpthem perform and deliver a better customer experience, build a better culture, which isgoing to lead to all of those are the things that can group helpand through productivity and engagement retention. I don't have right now. That's mygoal to get to is de find those one or two companies that are saying. Jeff, I love what you're saying. Let's let's kind of let's kind ofexplore this together over a longer two to three month isla or something rightnow still unknown, but I believe to my core that the organizations a prioritizethe stuff, we're going to see huge, like huge returns on on any anymoney they invest in this area. I think you're exactly right. Andeven if we only focus on retention alone, right in the costs of rehiring,re onboarding, the lost revenue and ramp time of a salesperson, youknow, a new salesperson compared to the person that you lost because we didn't, you know, invest in them. I would point you too, andI point listeners, to the service profit chain. It was a I readit as a book years ago. It's currently available if you search the serviceprofit chain. Harvard Business Review is written by three or four Harvard professors andwhat they what they do essentially is they take revenue growth and profitability on theright side of this model and they back into essentially customer satisfaction, customer loyalty, and then they anchor that in external service value and then they into employeeproductivity, employee essentially internal service quality, how well we treat our employees,is the precursor to external service values, you've already been arguing. So thisidea of hiring, selecting well, hiring well, on boarding well, developingwell, training well, promoting coaching, you know, investing and letting thesepeople know that they matter and and really investing in people to watch them flourishwithin your organization. They proved quantifiably that those two targets that we always focuson a sales teams and as companies are the outcome. There're the result ofan investment in our people, and so it's there. It's like some ofit's there for you. I'm excited for you to put together a formal pilotand now I hate to end down the one that I'm really curious to hearabout, because it's not so positive and constructive. But I recently had aguest on named Ben Smith well and he did a text talk in the UKon bullying in the workplace in some of the is like why it persists,how it persists, etc. And so I took it of personal interest becauseI watched this text talk before interviewing him and it was just really eye opening. And so in in day thirty nine you talk about sales bullying. Speaka little bit about that problem, but I guess maybe to honor the factthat it's the last time to ask you about here, give some rays ofhope around it as well. Yeah, so that's way I can can thinkabout at least my perspective on on bullying, and I think a lot oftentimes bullyinggets paired up with with micromanagement frequently and we're reading this culture of here. I believe that that humans in general are just not inherently bad people andI find that when bullying is taking place, if the bully is is usually strugglingwith something themselves, whether it's very trauma, whether you know, somethingin their environment is just triggering them consistently to to have in this way,and I think that when bullying occurs like it's a it's a clear what?Clear warning sign and a clear symptom that you know there needs to be moreconversations around mental health the workplace because when it's being done at the leadership level, that's not just impacting one person, that's impacting the entire team. Andthe best way that I know how to talk build bullying and connected to micromanagementis I see it as not negative.

I just see it as a lossof loss of perspective. When a sales manager and a sales rep are thegoal is to keep them in the present and they're vertically aligned. You havethe sales leader up here and in the rep down here. But what Isee happen is a sales rep might have a fight with their spouse or inencounter a negative experience on the sales for whatever it is, and as aresult they move to the past and the sales manager sees us and says,Hey, how do I help this person? Oh, they're underperforming, let's getthem more training and coaching so that they can ask better questions or closemore deals. They try to do that. There's no improvement back here because it'snot the where the REP is struggling. So then they get frustrated, theystart to worry about their own targets and their team's targets. And whathappens as they jump to the future and what you're left with is your leftwith this huge space in between where one person struggling with stuff in the past, one person struggling worried about things in the future and there's this friction andthis this conversation that just can't take place. So again, part of what Itry to do is health sales leaders that might be bullying in the situation. Understand that and see the symptoms. When a rep is falling back thepast, acknowledge that and what can you do to help the rep get backto the future work through these negative experiences so they end up in the presenttogether, where they can see the opportunities, when they can see creative ways togrow their business and sell more effective. So that's the ultimate goal with withthe kind of leadership. From my perspective is people aren't inherently bad.It's just two different perspectives that are having trouble talking to each other. Yeah, really important. They're the first. I've always often seen bullies as justpeople who are not whole and healthy themselves and they just don't have, forsome reason, don't have it in themselves to deal with a situation in ahealthy way, and so they wind them bullying. In some cases it's structural. They're lowed to bully because, you know, there are a lot ofthere's the supervisor. I also really like what you did there with going tothe past, going to the future. I can see that. No,in a wide variety of scenarios and what it points to. It's just stayingaware and cognizant and having the patients to stop pause, think about what's happeningand maybe see where that gap is before reacting, whether you're the manager orthe salesperson in that situation. And for folks who are listening and could notsee what Jeff was smartly doing with his hands, I do put up videoclips at Bombombcom podcast, not of the entire conversation but of but of keypassages, including that one, and so you can also check out other greatsales episodes, like episode forty nine with Scott Barker from sales hacker and outreach, where we talk about marketing tactics that sales people should be stealing from theirmarketing brothers and sisters, and episode fifty one with Joe Caprio, the VPof sales at chorus, where we talk about sales enablement and and sales readiness, so you know when you have tackled your own wellbeing and focused on thatfor your team members, or some other great sales tips, of course,here on the customer experience podcast. Jeff, as we as we wind down alittle bit, I always love to give you, just out of appreciationfor your time and not in to honor our number one core value of relationships. I'd love to give you the chance to think or mention a person who'shad a really positive impact on your life or your career, and I willonly because she's already come up. I am going to exclude your girlfriend fromthis one because it sounds like impen. She's been really good along your journeyand in Chiave it offered a couple piece of advice, pieces of advice thatyou've offered here in this conversation. Yeah, yeah, no, I think Ithink there's there's two. There's two people specifically, and going back tothat, that first sales environment that I was working I would have had atotally different experience, I would I would have been one of those reps thatwas out the door and wouldn't have been... sales. I would have burntout and would have been doing something totally different than I am right now.But there was there's two. I kind of had two managers at the time. There was a guy named Ryan Austin, who's doing really awesome things that havecome to called synaps right now, and another Ryan and Grian Hiss Cox, who is the director of sales over at bend right now, and bothof them were just so incredibly supportive. Ryan Austin was one of those oneof those leaders that would get on the phone and coach and lead from thefront, and Ryan his Fox has been one of those people, both ofthem that benchers of mind. The Ryan his houses was was someone that reallyhelped me connect to the human side, helped me learn ways to keep perspectiveand and, you know, get to that understanding that hitting your sales targetisn't always going to be the most important thing. It's going to be theworld of the relationships that you build with the people and your colleagues. That'swhat's really important. And how do you foster that and develop that of andothers. So both of them are are huge mentors of mine, good friendsmine today, and two people that had like an absolutely incredible influence of mylife and and again, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for them. So it's wonderful and here you are taking so much of what you've learnedfrom them and were encouraged by from them and sharing it with other people sothat the goodness that we give out is exponential. Then you never know howfar or even where it's going to go. So thank you for that. Andit's how fun that they're both not sharing the same name. How aboutgiven a shout out to a company that you really enjoy or appreciate or respectfor the way that they deliver for you, Jeff, as a customer? Yeah, so I think I think I got to go with one of mylocal favorites here in Toronto. It's a company called imperfect beats and they primarilythey source all of their food locally and they provide really healthy options by sourcingimperfect vegetables. So the ones that this the stores might not necessarily necessarily oneor might have a bruise on one side, but I love what they're doing,because it it's not only looking for ways to be more sustainable. Butone of my biggest at peeps personally is I think a lot of us aregoing to be met to change or diet and then your future to be moreenvironmentally friendly. But I find that there's also this barrier between a lot ofhigher end healthy eating options that are just obnoxious slee over priced. So Ialways respect and always appreciate businesses and restaurants that are trying to make eating ahealthy lifestyle more accessible and easier to do on an consistent basis to and bemindful of kind of that full testomer experience. I love it. I give ifthe'm a huge shadowt yeah, I'm gonna have to check out in perfecteats. I forget the name of so I had Dan Gingis a customer experienceexpert on the show. I think back in the twenty episode in the Sor s by number and he mentioned a company here in the states that doessimilar and I really appreciate your your observation that the environmental consequences of our dietsare very, very, very significant. It's something I've been a tuned toand aware of for years and I think we have a lot of kinship aroundthat topic. And of course, what you have here with imperfect eats isthat you're also dealing with with food waste and hunger issues as well. Youknow, if people, I don't care where you're listening right now, there'ssomeone, there are a lot of peoples, as many as one in seven peoplein your community, who don't know where their next meal is going tocome from. And so this idea that you know, this this wonderful healthypiece of produce that just doesn't look quite the right way to put on theshelf, you know, to display for purchase, is going to go towaste is just absolutely obnoxious and sad and terrible. So big ups on imperfecteats. I love that recommendation. Jeff. I really appreciate your time so much. I, as I already said,...

I really appreciate the work that you'redoing. I think you're helping a lot of people. I think byfocusing on being whole and healthy people, not just our work is going tobe better, but our relationships are going to be better, in our livesare going to be better. I think we will be more effective team members, no matter our seat in the organization if we follow some of the Guidanceand advice that you offered and encourage people to do the same. So iffolks want to follow up with you, Jeff, and connect with you orthe sales health alliance or any other work that you're up to, where wouldyou send people to connect? Yes, so, the so the website issales health alliancecom. So there's a lot of longer pieces. I'm always lookingfor stories that people what sharing on, anonymously or or not, that kindof highlight when we get mental health right and when we get mental health wrong. So the website has a lot of those pieces. But also connecting meon Linkedin, I try to post once a day, every weekday, oron sort of a different observation that I'm seeing that turns into these these longerebooks. And but yeah, I'm again, I'm more than apt to be accessibleas well. So if you you want to drop me an email,like can reach and Jeff, sales health a linscom and more one and haveto connect that way as well. So yeah, looking looking forward to it. It's always it's I like the position that says as an alliance, becausesince I started doing this this alliance of salespeople, sales theaters, mental healthexperts and tech providers is just really started to be picking steam and it's aschool and see a crass roots movement and it's I see it working. Soit's excited to connect. Good. I will drop all of that contact information, those links into our post. You can find that at Bombombcomla podcast.I want to thank everyone for listening in. Jeff, I want to thank youagain for your time and for what you're doing in the world. Nothanks you even I think you're doing something amazing as well, and I thinkI said the customer experience and the employee experience is going to be more importantthan ever with what we're doing for now. Clear Communication, Human Connection, higherconversion, these are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance. So pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videosaccelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast.Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and delivera better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics bysubscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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