The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

73. Marketing To Your Employees, Not Just Your Customers w/ Chris Wallace


We always talk about brand as a collection of promises that a company is making to its customers. At the end of the day, brand really comes down to the essence of a company.


However, if the people spending the money on the advertising do not have a strong bond with the people delivering that customer experience — the ones facing the customers — you have a catastrophic breakdown between promise and delivery.


Employee experience is customer experience if employees believe in the brand they are hired to represent.


In this episode, I interview Chris Wallace, Cofounder and President at InnerView Group, about marketing and branding to employees, not just customers.


A few of the takeaways:


- Build employee satisfaction to drive customer satisfaction — an upward spiral


- Avoid brand dilution by closing the gap between your brand promise and your customer experience


- Infuse your team with a sense of pride and purpose in their work and in your company


- Techniques & strategies for improving employee experience


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

We want our employees to be proud ofour companies and our brands and what we stand for the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host eath, an baute, our companie, spend so much time: Energy and money,marketing our products and services to our customers and our potentialcustomers. But what about our employees? Our guest is here today to talk aboutinternal marketing and brand consistency. To this conversation hebrings twenty years of sales, marketing and corporate leadership experience atcompanies like comcast insight sales and the PGA today he's Co, founder andpresident at Interview Group, a firm that helps companies engage theirfrontline teams to improve customer experience and, ultimately, to boostrevenue, performance, Christopher Wallace. Welcome to the customerexperience podcast. Even thank you so much for having me, I think, that's thebest intro I've ever gotten so great job with that awesome. Thank you. Asmall point of pride for me- and I want you to feel, welcome and for people WTOknow how beneficial this is going to be based onyour experience, but before we get going in earnest, I'm in ColoradoSprings. You are in the Philadelphia area, Forrecti. What's the currentsituation with regard to the to the coronavirus pandemic, Howis itaffecting you or your team, or your customers, yeah wow. We could probablyspend the entire time on just that, but we fortunately had been used to workingremotely over the years. We do have our headcours here in Philadelphia, whichis where most of our staff is, but we do have people sprinkled all over thecountry. We were all armed with our REZOM accounts prior to prior to thishappening, but I think from our customers perspective. It really is.You know it really depends it's company to company, because you know one of ourone of our major customers is the country's largest Internet serviceprovider and they're slammed right now: r they're one of the most importantcompanies in the country right now, and it's putting all sorts of differentstrain on them from a capacity perspective that it is on othercompanies, maybe in the Manufactur Ingto the banking space. So it's reallykind of industry to industry right now, interesting, yeah, it's the same! Forus. We have a number of people who are coming to us, like our current leadflow is just through the roof because we make it easy to stay face to facewith people through simple videos and emails, and and like you, we were youknow. We were primarily in office together in Colorado, springs wereabout a hundred and fifty people, and most of us are in the office physically,but we have enough people up in Denver and in other cities around the countrythat we're all equipped to work remotely and do meetings remotely andall of that, and so it was the the transition of the work itself hasn'tbeen to challenging. Yet, although it's you know who knows, I depends how longit persists as well yeah. I think the only exfector for us is for the peopleon our team, like myself, who have children. You Know School Age, childrenthat were trying to manage through some of the the home school stuff right now,some of the remote learning and that's a challenge because it workdayis notexactly a workday anymore, but you know we're managing we've got it a lotbetter than a lot of people do so we're happy to keep on chugging and my team'sbeen great. We know we're talking daily doing our zoom call so we're making itwork for right now. I love it gratitudes. The is the way. So, let'sget go in and we'll start where we always start, which is your thoughts ordefinition around customer experience. When I say customer experience, whatdoes it mean to you Christopher? Well, so I'm going to start by saying thatone of the things that when we when we built interview, we had been in theprofessional services business before and had some. I had a lot of experiencein consulting and when we started it, we were very intentional w h with howwe started the company and an one of those things was this idea of kind ofdevision for the company, and we talked...

...about with the vision of our company-is to take something that seems intangible and turn it into somethingthat can be deposited in the bank. Okay, that's Ne, that's part of our visionfor our company and I think it translates really well into mydefinition of customer experience, because I think of customer experienceas kind of the currency for the new generation right thit used to be products and features, or you know kindof some of your more more you know. Traditional, you know, is the productbetter than the competition, yes or no there's so many companies there's somany options, there's so many ways to get goods and services that theproducts e Ar this product paroty service, paroty just about in everysingle category, and I really do look at the experience as the greatdifferentiator from brand to brand. So I guess my definition really is the theadded value that an organization is building into their interaction withcustomers that separate them above and beyond their products and services. Ilike it. I like the value anchor and I liked it. It is in the interactionsright. That is where the experience is kind of most felt. I think so reallygood calling yor absolutely right. Imin. It's a primary thesis on the showHereis that hyper competition, which you described in product parody, rendercustomer experiences as the ultimate differentiator. So it's what a coolthing to be able to start a company with that perspective and to makedecisions through that through that Lens, so we're going to be going. Ifeel like a little bit back and forth between employee experience and brandbranding brand experience brand consistency, brand dilucion, and so Ijust wanted to tea up that. I'm really excited about this one, because both ofthem are truly inside out right. One of my early mentors around branding reallymade it clear that it needs to be lived from the inside before it can be feltoutside and that's the way that you make it consistent. So I love thisconnection to the employee and then don't know if you're familiar with theservice profhit chain, which is it's available for anyone to read kindof a digest version at harvear business, reves, a Harvard business, HoverBusiness Book Right, yeah, correct yeah was an made a book yeah and so that,like whe, when I, when I was learning about your company and anticipation ofthis hat's, just really excited because I feel like that's a significantintentionally you're, not perfectly consistent with that, which is the ideathat you know the revenue and the profitability are the outcomes.Customers are the midpoint, but really spending so much more time and energybuilding that internal service quality and making sure that the employeeexperience is fantastic is the necessary precursor to all of it. So Iguess we'll start here, which is the reason I always ask about customerexperiences that you get a variety of answers. Although there's some someconsistent themes and I feel like the same thing- is true of branding, so I'dlove for you to talk about brand and brand experience relative to customerexperience in your view and your opinion: Are they synonymous? Are theredifferences like how do you think about that yeah? So so I don't know that Iwould say that they'rs synonymous, but I think that therethey're sort of tiedto one another right. I think that the the way we always talk about brand is abrand is a collection of promises that a companyes Mak ing to its customers.That's the way we think of it. We think of it as the brand really comes down tothe essence of a company, and then essence is: Why do we exist? What arewe saying? We can do for customers. Why do we have a place in this world right?So we wase come back to. We look at the brand as the promises that are beingmade. We look at the customer experience as whether or not the customthe promises are being kept right. Wut, that's how we see the two of thosethings being linked, and it's really important that you look at themintandem. You know we found both the research and through practical workthat they're just they're disconnected far too much of the time, and what doyou think the primary causes there is? That is that one of them is overlooked,or one of them is undervalue like where's the disconnect do you think so.I believe the disconnect- and you know I'm in the process of of writing aresearch you kno. We did some research...

...ewher the process of writing theresearch report right now, but from that research, what we've been able tosee is ind the organizations that we support and we're typically workingwith either a thusness to consumer brand or a consumer brand that goes tomarket through Youkow Beeto BTC. Maybe they have distributors or retailpartners, but you know think of like a consumer electronics brand they go tomarket, you know be a BC but they're, typically consumer brands and typically,what we're seeing is the people who are designing the brand and being sort ofthe architects of that brand story. The people who make the promise and thepeople who keep the promise who are responsible for keeping the promise thephysical and mental distance between those two departments is probably widerthan we even thought. Okay, let me give you an example and the research that wejust did, which hasn't been released yet, but I'll share some of thefindings. One of the things we found was in asking customer facing employeesin consumer industries, Retail Airlines hospitality restaurant year, yourtypical consumer in consumer industries, who do they see, is most critical andhelping them sort of deliver the customer experience and tell that brandstory right. How do they know what brand promises they need to keep right?Where do they get that from? Where do they get that direction from? We gavethem six different groups within theirorganization that they could choose from marketing rink fifth out of six, so the mental again physical and mentaldistance between somebody who works a register and the person that that doesthe adbies is huge. It's even bigger than we thought it was to be hons n. Weknew it was big, but we're seeing tha the data tell us that it's wider thanwe even thought and to me that's a big challenge right: the people who werespending the money on the advertising and spending the money with the youknow to build the campaigns if they are not linked. If they do not have astrong bond with the people delivering that customer experience, you are boundto have a breakdown between promise and delivery right and that's what so manybrands have. Is that breakdown between promise and delivery? So I'm going tocome down to they simply just don't see each other. I say they, the customerfacing teams and the marketing and brand department and most organizationsjust don't see each other as one another stake holders. Enough of thetime would you say that that's one of the biggest points of value andengagement when you engage with the company as interview is, that is thatone of the disconnects- that's probably one of the bigger points that you'reworking on or like what e? What's the scope of engagement? Yeah, that'sreally what it is! I mean a lot of it comes down to, and I didn't say thatwas the rift simply because it's sort of Duve tails him with what we do, butbecause again we're seen from the DABTAND, that's even bigger than wethought, but we really dobuild a bridge between that strategic vision of wherethe brand wants to go in the day to day execution right the campaign think ofit. This way, if a campaign is done, you go to your agency, you repositionyourself, you're, going after a new demographic, you've got a you've, gotgreat creative. You got great ads, you have a great ad by and you go out withthat campaign and the demand starts flowing. The phones ring the foot,traffic picks up all those things, but the people who actually service thosecustomers are disconnected think about how much of a drag on the results ofthat campaign and uninformed and uninspired. Frontline employee groupcan bat right think about how big that discin, we filled that gap we've closedthat gap for companies and again it ends up being much bigger than even. Wethought it would be going in really interesting it kind of teas up where Iwanted to go next, which is your thoughts on the relationship betweenthe employee experience and the customer experience yeah. So we have I'll call Ya. L, UT, we'll callcontroversial, but maybe a little bit provocative view of sort of theemployee experience to to customer experience. The way we look at the linkbetween the two is, we believe, very...

...strongly that employee. So I would betyou'd get more definitions of employee experience than you would customerexperience, because people really look at that in very different ways. The waywe look at it is you have people who are hired to do ajob if we can put them in a position to believe in the brand that theyrepresent right and be in a position to serve that customer to the best oftheir ability if they are good at their job every single day, if they areserving customers well, and they are getting that positive feedback fromcustomers, whether it's just in body language in exchange- or you know, ingood natured interaction or if it's coming through literal feedback throughcustomer surveys, and things like that, we believe the pride in what they do isgoing to grow right. So we believe very strongly in let's put them in aposition to serve the customers, the best they possibly can and in doing soyou're going to build their pride and working for the brand that theyrepresent and their pride generally in serving customers. So we're very much awe look at it as help them serve their customs help them do their job to thebest of their ability and their satisfaction with the work that they doin their engagements going to go way up a lot of other organizations. Look atit as which is very, very feasible and viable. Is this idea of let's makehappy employees and happy employees make hapy customer? So it's a lot oflike employee experience becomes making sure that they've got. You know greatcoffee machine in their break rooms or their snacks, or there's like a lot oflike truly like workplace and like workplace, Eng, powerment type programs.Those are all well and good, but we cut straight to the chase and we say puthim in a position to serve the customers better, get them more excitedabout the products in the brand that they represent and watch theirsatisfaction as an employee go through the roof. So good, it's a positiveupward spiral, and it reminds me this idea that company culture is not a foosball table or beer on tap. A lot of companies think that right right, butbut to your point, I love that you cut straight to it, and so what is that?What does that look like in practice? Is this more internal training? Is this?What are a couple kind of tangible actionable things around like? How dowe get employee buying, especially maybe for a company? That's beenoperating, let's say for years, they'v kind of taken a lot of this for granted,and now you have you know the culture. What is normal, what is accepted what'sbeen tolerated. What it feels like to show up every day is a certain way. Howdo you start from a practical standpoint? Start transitioning that toget that by in, in that belief, like winning the hearts and minds of theemployees, so that the customers can feel it that it'? So it's a greatquestion. So what you just ask you know the line we always use is you knowpeople whe start talking about these types of things. Marketers typicallysay we have this challenge, but fixing it just feels so daunting right and thereality is white feel so daunting is because they look at their employees.They separate their employees as one group and their customers as anothergroup and marketers are in the business of mass behavior change. That's whatthey do. Their job is to compel people to act in new ways, based on a messagethat they've heard or some sort of stimulus, and we look at it as it's notthat hard and not that daunting. If you take the things that you're so good atright now- and you just apply them to the employee group, just as if theywere a buyer right, the biggest Aha here is to look at them as a buyer andconsumer of your message, not as a messenger just for a minute right. Ifyou can get them to buy it first and really believe in it, then getting themto be a messengers. A lot easier organizations go the other way around.They try to make people messengers of something that they don't necessarilybelieve it. So what we do is just like any good marketing campaign. We startwith market research. We developed a...

...tool called the brand transfer studyingthe brand transfer score and what we are quite literally doing is we areassessing an organizations message, sort of ther their core brand message.What are the key pillars of that message and we're assessing thecorporate architects of that message and then all the people out in thefield or wherever else inside the organization that represent thatmessage and we are coming back to an organization with a point of view, justlike you would with a customer, just as you would come back with marketresearch and say here's what the customers think of your here's, how thecustomers view year view you they don't think you're good at this. They thinkyour competitions, you know, kicking your butt here, but they think you'restrong here we're doing the same thing with the internal audience and we'recoming back to a marketer saying you believe your brand story is this, butyou're losing twenty seven percent, your misaligned by twenty seven percent,with your retail team or you're misalligned. You know seventeen percentwith your with your channel partners, your Districtang, your distributionpartners, so we're coming back to them with research, market research. It justso happens for doing market research on a different audience, but once you havethat data in hand again, what do marketers do with data? You build amessaging campaign and you drive tactics out in different mediums outthat are going to move the needle, and the key here is, you have to think faroutside, hitting send on an email. are posting a product training to reallyget people's attention and to compel them to change their behavior? Youwouldn't try to train a customer to be excited about your brand, but that'show organizations that again, they're trying to make them messengers thatpeople represent the brand messengers before their believers. We want to flipthe script for them, so the internal campaigns that we run they look morelike the type of campaign you'd run to consumers. Then they do something thatyou're typically doing through your training department. I love it. Whatteam is this coming out of? Do you engage marketing departments to do thework or do you provide it as a third party, we work with the marketingdepartment, so we are typically partnering with it could be anybodyfrom the brand an in a core marketing team inside of brand. It could also bea channel leader, somebody that's responsible for channel marketing, fora dealer channel or for a call center channel, whatever the case may be, soit's typically the marketing. The way it goes is marketing typically says man.Wouldn't it be nice if I could get my people on message right, because that'sour question to a marketer. How confident are you that your people areon message and they're like not so confident? So we say: okay,Great, so you think you might have this challenge. Then we become partners withthe people like the sales leadership, the training team. We become the gluethat sort of holds those things together and to your question earlierabout working with the customer facing teams in the marketing team wee sort ofbecome that bridge, we become the Kondu it between the marketers that justdon't have the internal mechanisms to link up with those people down at thefront lines, and we build that bridge for them and help sort of manage it.Overtime, love it. So how much of this is branding work? I mean you say onmessage, and so you know on message could mean. Why are we all here? Why do we show up?Who Do we serve and what do we solve for them at a high level or it could belike you know you offered before maybe a new campaign or a new product or anew service that maybe the front line is ignorant of or just playingmisunderstands, and so how much are you talking brand in this scenario? So it'sa reallrally good question, so this I will say our focus. Isn't we don'tbuild your brand whe, always joke we're like BASF. We don't build your brand.We just help you xere execution, people right, and I think that you know whatwe've done is we've tried to break it down in a sort of six. What I'm goingto call triggers that t? You know that sort of drive the work that we dothere's product and service launches. So as a marketing team we're bringingsomething new to market okay, we have... We have a new thing that we want toget out there. Our customers need it. We've done all the research we got toget it to market the story. We're telling there is your frontline teams,whether you like it or not, their gatkeepers. You know you need them tobe offering this. You need them to be recognizing the customers need in orderfor this new product to service, to be successful, you've got to open up thoseflood gates early and not wait until you're. Thirty percent O your goal tofigure out how to engage those fucks. Typically, most brands cannot driveenough demand to their doorstep. To make every product ind service launchworthwhile. You've got it. You've got to get your front year, your frontlindteam engaged campaigns and promotions. So it's coming up on your big sellingseason. You are making a big push. You've got some promotional pricing.You've got a key. You know pricing promotion out there in the marketplace.You really want to get traction for it. You need to get your team bought inanother trigger getting into some of the more philosophical ones aroundbrand company, rebranding and mergers and acquisitions right. The commontheme here is anytime Changis, coming to your brand anytime, you're pivitinganytime, you're swiveling, with your brand and you're, adding something andbringing a new message out to the marketplace. That's typically where weget involved, but rebrands are a big one in mergers and acquisitions. How doyou bring two brands into one? How do you get people? U, as one of ourclients, says to quote Unquote Act the brand right. I love that idea of how doyou act the brand in a rebrand or a merger and acquisition scenario? That'ssuch a key piece! Yeah just bet it just begs it. It's critical, especially thatyou know with big companies. You find that you know banks, merge and people,don't know how to talk about who they are. You Know Ond Day, one you knowanymore than they did the day before and it causes a lot of customerconfusion. The last two are customer experience programs. So if companiesare investing in their customer experience, how do we make sure thattheir brand truly is built into that program? And it's launched in a waythat's going to drive that that excitement and frankly's going to makeit stick at the front lines? And finally, it's you know really dealerand channel support. You've got these programs that you need to push out tocall it an nonemployee, an nonemployee base. These are people who don't haveto do it because it's on their score card or their bonus on it. It's peoplethat you have to really influence into driving the actions that you want. Sothose are really the six triggers. That's great. I like the framework andthat last step there I mean in a lot of cases, depending on thenature of the partnership, the customer doesn't know or care whether they'rdirect employees or not, I mean functionally they are. They are brandrepresentatives, whether you want them to be or not, so it's so obviouslyimportant o to rote them in and make sure that they understand everythingthe same way as a direct employee Yo. Would let's talk for a minute aboutbrand dilucion like what are the costs there? How do we get more consistent?How does it happen? Just talk about some of the dynamics there yeah so sobranda Lucian is quite simply the difference between what the brand ispromising and what the customer hears right. We talk about the definitionbrand in the definit addition of definition of customer experience. Welook at brand elucionist the gap between those two things right. Howwide is that gap? You know in the research that we've done with withsenior level marketers and customer experience executives. What we foundwas. It was really interesting. The people who felt like their organizationwas poor and getting that message out in a lined way. They sort of perceivedthat that the deluded message had at a cost, still significant right aboutabout half of the respondence that we had valued that gap at five milliondollars between five and ten million annually, or excuse me north of fivemillion annually, but for the organizations that felt like they weregood at it. We asked them to ascribe AF value to that consistent message: Sixtytwo percent of those people now these were the with larger organizations, butsixty two percent of those people put a price tag of ten million dollars, pluson the value of having that consistent...

...message and when I say the valley we'retalking we're not talking about this, isn't papervalue we're talking about inthe transactions day. Today, in the interactions that we talked aboutearlier, we are winning more business because our people can represent ourbrand more consistently. Our brand can stand out. Our brand has value and themore we live our brand and act, the brand, the more business we're going towin. That's what that dollar value is telling us is the brands who do thiswell. Sixty two percent said they would put a value of more than ten milliondollars annually on that attribute of their organization. So it's not evenjust the perceived costs are high enough, but the actual value thecompanies are realizing actually is greater than the perceived cost ofcompanies that are struggling, obviously so important just to the businessfunctioning in general. I was thinking there about midlevel management. Iwould guess that you're engaged by probably executives or seniorleadership at some level, but really where this is going to be made, isprobably at the mid midlevel management scenario, who are theire hiring. Theyare daily managing they're, hopefully doing consistent one on one meetings ina variety of things there I feel, like that's, probably when I think about thechannels available for internal marketing to employees to keep themengaged to help make some transformation the way they think about,or even behave within the business that that's got to be one of the mostimportant gateways. It's the most important gateway and that's you know across all the workthat we've done all the consulting we've done over the years. I don't careif you're talking about sales and marketing or accounting frontlinemanagers are the single most important. You know, group inside you know mostespecially large organizations they just simp they're the leverage pointright there there there were, you know big initiatives and execution. You knoweither lives or dies. So we've seen that across a whole bunch of differentengagements that we've done over the years. Everything we do all theengagers that we do. We try to account for the leadership in a really uniqueway. We try to make sure we can reach that leader on their terms and just aswe're trying to equip the frontline employee to be a believer in themessage, so they can be a good messenger. We also have to do the samething. This is a big big, waterfall right. The message has to cascade downand man. If, if it gets down to the frontline leader and stop there, you'vegot a real challenge, but most organizations, most big organizations,especially, are only as good as their front mind leadership, team yeah. So Isee here this this opportunity to probably run into some resistance. Imean you know: one bad manager could probably ruin it for entire departmentor team. If they're either, you know speaking out of both sides of theirmouth or they just never get behind the message. In the first place. What aresome cautions? I mean obviously what was baked into your last response. There isthe idea that this needs to work for the company. It needs to work for theteam and it needs to work for the individual and we need to create thatalignment. I mean that is part of the cascade. It needs to work at all levelsand be clear at all levels. Where are some other? You know in terms of overcoming resistance and some of theother things that you run into an any change management or transformationprocess. You have a couple cautions for folks yeah, so I'm going to highlightone example. I have a really tangible example of what you just described. Wehave a client who's, a national home improvement brand okay and we did abrand transfer study with them. Recently we did the read out with theirnational sales leader, and we found something really interesting. Okay, wedid it on they're about to roll out a new customer experience initiative, sothey're overhauling completely overhaulned the way they engage, acustomer from the way the Sales Processe to the to the inhomeexperience to it's completely changing and what wefound was senior leadership was very...

...keenly aware of what needed to change. The frontline teams were very keenlyaware of what needed to change, and the frontline leaders made it very clearthat they were not interested in anything changing and, if you thinkabout it very logical and actually our client predicted. That would happen andthe reason he predicted that was, he said if you think about frontlineleaders, frontline leaders were promoted to where they are todaybecause they worked well in the current system. So if you introduce variablesthat take them outside of what help them get promoted to this point, theylearn how to work in the current system to stand out and be successful. If you,if you introduce new variables, you've just disrupted their world, you'veupset their apple cart, so to speak. So when we think about so the pitfallthere is you create training, and this is justone thing I want to stress. I have no problem with training. I think thattraining is needed, the Challengeis the way it's upplied and the way it'slayered in an organizations. It's typically marketing has a new product.We want people to sell it, we create product trainings, they take it onlineor it's instructor, let ad or they get a one sheet, whatever the case may be,but in most cases deat frontline leadership team is left out of that orthey take the same one that their team did and they just sort of gl. I don'tneed to take this. They just kind of click through it, but the reality isthere's a whole separate effort that needs to be focused on them and spokento them in their language. It's a separate part of the messaging campaign.You need to hit those frontline leaders and account for them differently thantheir front mine teams. So good. I see the very obvious parallels that youopened up on between tactics that you would use to market externally. Antactics that you would use to market internally got to meet people wherethey are and and show them their unique benefit in value. In this situation,I'm going to change gears briefly and then well, I love my clothing questionsand I'm looking forward to to your answers there, but you earned an NBAfrom the Fox School of Business and management at Temple and you've taughtthere as an ad junk professor just speak for a minute about and anythoughts that occur to you about that, like what's the value of higher ed inyour opinion or what are some positive Trans Youre, seeing in customerexperience at that level, anything you have to share about that yeah. So I think I can share one. You know onepretty direct insight and the class that I taught at temple. I was leadingind complex organizations- okay, it was. It was sort of a core cort class forthefor the professional NBA program, which was the parttime professional NBAstudents, working adults and everything we're talking about all trace is backto fundamentally sound leadership. I don't care if you're talking aboutcustomer experience or marketing or sales or the concepts, all sort oftrace back to the same place. Okay- and you know it sort of goes in conjunctionwith the previous question about how do you avoid some of those pitfalls? Well,it's easy to say: good leadership can avoid a lot of these pitfalls. It's notgood marketing leadership or good sales leadership. It's just good leadership,one of the ways that we found in probably the best way to sort of tie itback in with the lessons that I taught at temple. Is this idea of there's nobetter way to change behavior, there's, no better way to move people than tomove laterally not top down. The top down organization is fundamentally poor.Twenty first century leadership methodology it'sitjust, doesn't workright, we're working in Matrix organizations, you're working with anemployed base, it's more empowered than they ever have been, or at least theywere before a couple of weeks ago. But the organization that can drive changein a matrix influence based way are the ones that are going to be more nimble,more responsive and are going to have smaller gaps and execution. Thedelution that we talked about delucions just another way of saying gap andexecution. So you know that I would say...

...that's one thing that I, in referenceto my experience through higher education, is a lot of the challengesthat we face right now, as marketers and otherwise really comes back to justfundamentally sound, not just leadership wit. Twenty fir centuryleadership, really good. The Matrix piece is the key to moving forward.It's interesting to think about how many businesses are still operating ina very traditional topdown manner, and I would assume that you would agreewith my speculation that they're going to struggle to recruit and retain thebest people, not only that it's we've. We work with a lot of companies thatare more traditional, that older school type of industries like manufacturing,businesses and things like that, and you know one of the things that wefound is people always do the blame, the millennials game, Ahwell, it's themillennials or you know, they're forcing the hand on this and Ow, Iaways say millennials all they did was they made it okay to want the thingsthat all employees want? They just they just weren't willing to take no for ananswer. They wanted to be treated with respect. They believed in a pat on theback is worth as much as as a bonus in your paycheck and in some cases it'sworth even more. You know we've seen you know, I had a gentleman, his lates,a sales rup one time stand up and say: I've got a couple years left doing thisand I'm going to go Ouf the right way, the stuff you're talking about this isthe way I want to leave. This is the way I want to. You know be as aprofessional and I'm getting on bored, because the people, people arefundamentally the same, whether their millennials or boomers, and I just givecredit to millennials for kind of kicking through the door and sayingwe're not going to compromise hem things that matter to us as individualsreally really good, and I appreciate that so much. We've had a couplemillennial conversations on here in on the show, and they typically point back to what youjust shared there, which is there just regular people too and they're justchanging some of the norms today, which is fantastic, folks, are listening andyou enjoyed this conversation. You might also enjoy episode. Thirty, nine,with Lanceon Levi from Dutch Bros coffee, that one is about companyculture as your competitive edge and one of my earlier conversations with mylongtime friend, Kurt Bartolechan episode, eight take care of your brandand it will take care of you he's all about brand conservancy and protectingwhat's good about it. A Christopher before I let you go I'd like to knowtwo things from you. First is someone who is actually more than two things,but I would love to give you the chance to thank or mention someone who's had apositive impact on your life or your career yeah. I appreciate theopportunity to do that, so I'm going to I'm going to take a moment andrecognize somebody who's become a really dear friend and mentor to myselfand my business partners. His name is Dr Frank, sespitis and, and Dr Cespitisis a a senior lecture at Harvard Business School and I want to say, wastwo thousand and fourteen two thousand and fourteen he released a book calledAligning Strategy and sales, and we read the article in Hbr that was sortof you know. Hyping up the book and we bought the book right away like a weekafter it had come out, and I sent Dr Sespitis and email at like nine thirtyone night and by TN thirty, I had an email back from him. Saying I'd love totalk to you. You know sure, be happy to find some time, and- and here we are,you know almost six full years later and Dr Cespitis, his helped lead usinto we merged a prior practice with it with another firm that he had somecontacts with he's, helped us build the thesis and really see through thebeginning of interview as we've sort of taken what we knew from the past andstarted up again, but just very generous with this time and trulytestament to harvor business school and the and the horse power that they havewith their faculty there. It's unbelievable fantastic story. I reallyappreciate that so much. I think so many of us who are consuming ideasand information, whether it's through podcast for videos or books or articlesor whatever are so hesitant, I think,... reach out to people, even when, likeI make my email address available on every conversation, I have you knowwhan, I'm in your seat and it's so funny how infrequently anyone takesadvantage of it, and you know just like millennials our employees with justdifferent norms. You know these people are just doing their own work. Theylove their work, they're proud of their work. I would assume in most cases justlike we want our employees to be proud of our companies and our brands andwhat we stand for that. So many people are willing to engage, but that's justabove and beyond. I love it. How about a company that you really respect forthe way they deliver for you as a customer? You know I always useexamples when I'm doing sessions with clients, I always talk about thenorgstrum effect. You know I talk about and I know that't s, one of the onesthat comes up frequently. I don't want to be unoriginal, but you know I lookat Norgstrom and say you know. The exercise that I do is, you know, have agroup of employees or leaders in a room and I'll say: okay, who's ever shoppedat Norgh, trum, okay, three cores of the room, ands go up. Who'sever left anorg drum and spent less money than they anticipated. No hands go up. Okay, youalways spend more who's ever left a norshtrum unsatisfied no hands go upright. So you know, Wath that illustrates to me: Is People don't needto apologize for delivering products and services that meet the needs andwants of their of their customers so many times frontline employees? This iswhere I talk about the idea of belief. People at Norch tem really believe thatthey're doing you a service. They believe that they're helping you. Theybelieve that finding you that right suit and Wright shirt for that N jobinterview or for that client meeting. They really believe they're serving younot selling you and that belief is so critical. So many organizations havepeople that really rob the customer and the company of a larger transaction, amore fruitful relationship so to speak, because they're not willing to go thatextra mile, the people in Orchdram do and they deliver for their customers.People don't walk away and feel like they were sold. They walkd away andfelt like feel like they were helped so I'll call out Nordsham as a brand. Thatreally seems to do this well good, one, the the idea of the belief held and shared by eachemployee that they are doing something of real value, and it gives a sense ofpurpose, and it gives you that sense of pride that Youyou've been talking aboutthroughout the conversation, and so that's a great example to end onChristopher someone wants to follow up with you. They want to learn more aboutinterview. Where would you send people yeah, so you mentioned given thepersonal email, I'd encourage anybody to reach out to me directly. I am CWallace Wa ll ace at Interview Group. Now it's inner, as in looking insideLikeou, met your inner self inner VI. Ew Not like a job interview, but it'sinterview, Groupcom and then another great place to find me as linked inChris Wallace at interview group in the Philadelphia Area. So I have to cautionpeople I have a very common name: it's not a rare name! So if you are lookingfor me, look for interview group and look in Philadelphia, you'll find meawesome. I have found you there I'm pleased to be connected. I appreciateyour time so much really appreciate what you're doing with interview. It'sobviously critically important and I think it's you know the more peoplethat you serve the more satisfied and joyful employees I think will have well.I appreciate the opportunity and hit's been a great conversation cool. Thankso much, of course, clear communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance,so pick up the official book rehumanize Your Business, how personal videos,accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in order today atBombam Com book, that's Bom, B, vombcom... thanks for listening to thecustomer experience. podcast remember the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,continue learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now inyour favorite podcast player, or visit Bombomcom podcast.

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