The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

76. When Customer Experience Becomes An Existential Experience w/ Todd Hockenberry

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Our ideas about customer experience have probably changed drastically due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Customer experience is no longer just about getting value from a service or experience. It’s actually about helping each other survive.

 

When customer experience is that essential to keeping our livelihoods and lives safe, we have to revisit its deepest foundation: relationships.

 

In this episode, I interview Todd Hockenberry, Consultant, Advisor, and Coach at Top Line Results, about customer centricity and inbound organization.

 

What we talked about:

 

- Alignment is actually about teamwork

 

- True customer-centricity means knowing more about the customer than they know about themselves

 

- A traditional playbook is just frustrating your reps & customers

 

- We are all connected, and no one can succeed alone

 

Check out this resource we mentioned during the podcast:

 

- Dan’s book is Inbound Organization

 

- His coauthor Dan Tyre was also a guest on the Customer Experience Podcast

 

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

The reality is, for the vastmajority of companies, you have to create this experience that's fundamentally different than yourcompetition, because there's no other way to differentiate. The single most important thingyou can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieveddesired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This isthe customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Today we're talking internalalignment and inbound organizations. We're talking mission, culture and strategy, customercentricity and customer experience. Our guest is a CO author of an excellent bookthat speaks very directly to the entire purpose of this podcast. That Book InboundOrganization. How To build and strengthen your company's future using inbound he's a marketingconsultant, advisor and coach at top line results. He helps be to beleaders, drive growth, align with buyers, build sales and marketing strategies and developthe mindset to grow. Todd Hockenberry, welcome to the customer experience podcast,Ethan. It's my pleasure to be here. It's a long time coming. I'm glad to be here. Me Too, like as we were talkingbefore we hit record. You know, we've seen each other and kind ofknown each other for some time and it's nice to finally can that directly andI'm looking forward to the conversation. Hey, we're recording this in like early tomid April. Won't release for a while, but just because we can'tignore it. You're an Orlando, I mean Colorado Springs. I'm just wonderingwhat's the coronavirus pandemic situation in Orlando? How is it affecting you or yourfamily or your customers? Like kind of what's going on? Well, evenOrlando obviously is. It's shocking. Something like sixty eight million people visitor Orlandolast year, which is the most visited city in the world, which ishard to believe. So that is ground to a sandstill. And I promiseyou I will never complain about traffic ever again in my life because I wasused to it was natural. All, I hate traffic at a weight,but traffic equals activity, so I never I guess I never really connected thedots that well to that. I just would like to complain, so I'llnever complain about that again. People are hurting right now down here. Disney'slaying off the big the hotels are something like ten capacity, when usually they'dbe at ninety five percent capacity. Now we're losing the one of the biggesttourist times of the year here. So a lot of our friends were seeinglayoffs and being let go. So that's that's tough. Not sure when thehospitality industry's going to bounce back. I think it's going to take a littlewhile so so that's a little tough here. Locally, personally, we're fine.Kids are home. got a daughter in college. She's back so it'snice to have everybody in the house and they can do distance learning pretty well, so that's not too bad. Clients Wise, we're doing mind. Wehaven't lost any business. Our clients. We tend to do a lot ofindustrial and manufacturing and it's actually pretty strong. I hopefully get into a couple ofmy client situations later. They are actually doing better because they're busier becausethey're dealing with mission critical situations, so there's some urgency there. So it'skind of a mixed bag. We've been okay. I actually landed a couplenew clients this week and and I'll tell you why is. We get goinghere, but so so far, so good. But yeah, we recognizethis as a pretty strange time and I think there's there's a lot of difficultiesthat a lot of people are going to see. He's for sure, yeah, very uneven effects. I do appreciate that silver lining of more face timewith my wife and my son than than ever really, and my son's lovingdistance learning because he can do it at his own pace and he has likemore free time than normal. and honestly, I think as soon as any ofthese orders are lifted, Disney's going to be jam packed because people areprobably itching and desperate to, you know, like satisfy that unmet need that's maybebeing pent up. Why? I...

...don't know it. I don't knowEthan. I there's there's a lot of us have talked about that. We'renot sure what's going to happen. I think there's I'm not sure I go. I mean, I'm just being kid. I'm not sure I'm interesting good one. Yeah, I'm not sure I would go sit in the stadium rightnow for a sporting event, which I love, or go to a concert, which I love. I don't know. I mean not that I'm super afraidof getting it, it's more that I don't know. I wouldn't wantto be the guy who was carrying it infecting other people. So again,I think we need to we need to be reasonable about it. I thinkthere's some a lot of common sense things we can do. I do thinkthere's going to be some hesitants to get back to normal that fast. Ithink it'll come back into you know, in the fall, hopefully over thewinner. Maybe. Again, I won't predict because you read everything and I'myou're always wrong. But I do think there's going to be pent up demandfor a lot of things. I think there's opportunities for people to think abouthow to experience things like Disney in a different way and those are the opportunitiesthat I think are going to change the way people look at look at entertainment, for sure, and lots of other industries. That's the opportunity of this. Yeah, there is going to be a lot of models will change andI'm sure Disney's already hard at work on that right like, you know,the movie theaters, for example. We won't spend too much more time onthis. But the movie theaters, for example, decided to take whatever wasgoing to continue to be a like a first round release and figure out howto release it, you know, straight to homes, and charge differently forit and all of that. And so business models will change to meet whateveropportunity is available. So let's get into it properly. I always like tostart because I'm talking with people with a wide variety of experience here on theshow and wide variety of perspectives and areas of expertise, and so I'd loveto know from you, todd, when I say customer experience, what doesthat mean to you? Actually is changed in the last three weeks? Forme, to be honest with you, customer experience used to me, andwhen we wrote the book in Down Organization with my good friend Dan tire,it meant kind of the sum total of expectations of all touch points along theprocess, from marketing through sales, through delivery, training, on Boarding Service, whatever you want to call it. That's still the case. I stillthink customer experience is extraordinary valuable, but I think the customer experience has changedfor me in this that that there's as opposed to just talking about getting valuefrom a product or service. It's almost become this existential thing now, whereasI can you help me survive? Can you help me get through this nextsix months? Can you help my business keep customers, not necessarily even getnew customers, just keep the ones I have and maintain my my business?Can I stay above water? Right? That's what we're seeing, and Ithink it's a different level of understanding your customer, putting yourself in their shoes, being empathetic and really developing a value proposition that makes sense, that canhold up two difficult times like now. I think there's another layer on therethat wasn't there a month ago, at least for most companies in the US. And if you are sending emails right now, for example, to youryour contact list, your prospect list, I am on subscribing at a recordpace lately from email. So just because you can do it doesn't mean youshould do it. And on the other hand, though, I've got oneclient here, or and Orlando, that deals with the stored fuel, whichis a really Nice, fun obscure thing to do. But if you're ahospital or you're a government agency, your cranking up generators that haven't been usedfor months or years and you've got tanks full of fuel that have it couldpotentially have issues. So they've all of a sudden become really valuable to makingsure that field hospital you're setting up or the emergency prep workers that need tobe out in the field work and hard have fuel to power up their vehiclesor power up these generators. Well, what they did was, instead ofsending the same old covid nineteen email that everybody is sending, they sent thisout. They said, we know you're...

...busy right now, we know youhave issues and we know you're starting up these generators and using the stored fuel. We will come on site for you free. We will test your fueland make sure it works and it's good and it doesn't have contamination like bacteriaor water in it, just to make sure you don't lose any time gettingyour operations up to speed. No strings attached, just tell us will showup and test your fuel. Guess what the phone was Ringgan, come onout, we need your help, right. And so the experience was being epathetic, understanding, helpful, mission critical, giving away something for free. Allsound like good inbound things, right. But knowing when to do it rightand knowing who to do that for. So again, I think it's justdeepening for me this this idea of customer experience is deepening in this thistime, because the companies that don't do it well or aren't thinking about meor being helpful first, I'm going to remember and I'm not going to behappy about it when when things settled down. Yeah, I feel like a themethere is is true partnership, a true exchange of value, not justthe extraction of a credit card number or the return of an invoice paid,but a true partnership and a long term relationship. And it's really interesting.The idea of the broader circumstance really kind of fundamentally shifting or adding an importantnew layer to your perspective, because customer experience was an important theme in inbound organization. I'd like to spend another minute on it, specifically around yourthoughts on it being the most important or maybe the ultimate differentiator. Do youthink that is true, and if so, why? Absolutely, absolutely, it'sit hasn't changed that sense, right. I mean products are there's parity.I can buy anything that I want right, and I can buy itfrom all over the world. I can buy from a hundred different vendors.Right. This is why your customer experience starts with the phone call or themessage or the email, right. Or if you don't have chat today,right, I'm a I'm asking cut tell my clients get chat right now.Get it today. If you don't have it, if you can't staff it, outsources to somebody that can pick up the phone or answer those talk andtalk to people immediately. Don't let them go find five other options in twominutes with a search. Don't let him do it. Be there in everypossible way you can be there. So it is still the core differentiator because, again, product pricing, you don't have it. You don't have differentiationon your product and your designs aren't that great and your software is not allthat better than the seventeen other options I can buy. It just isn't andyou have to create differentiation and in different ways. You can do it inon a on a branding level, but you can create branding around your companymission and your vision and who you are. and Think about like Nike with ColinKaepernick. Super controversial, but they did it for a reason because theyknew their core audience. That would resonate with them right, and they werestrengthened in their brand with their core audience. Me, I'm not their core audience. So, you know, may have annoyed me, but they didn'tcare because I wasn't their core buyer. But think about what they're selling.Tennis shoes. Really, is there any real differentiation in tennis shoes? Idoubt it. I mean maybe at the high level of your an Olympic athleteor you're a Competi competic, but for a guy like me, I'm justwalking on the name of my dogs. There's no differentiations shootes. So thereality is for the vast majority of companies you have to create this experience that'sfundamentally different than your competition because there's no other way to differentiate. Do youjust to follow up there, do you feel like brand experience and customer experienceare synonymous? Really? Your response triggered that question for me. Some peoplesee them as synonymous, some people see them differently. It's a semantic argument. Even if you ask me, Yep right, if you say it's branding, is this it's it's your your logo and your swoosh, your content,right it's all the same. It's all one thing. We Mash it upin our heads and you know, when you walk into an apple store,you get a certain sense. Is that...

...branding? Of course it is.They're telling you something about who they are and what they want to communicate.Who you are, right. That's real branding, right. But it's tellingyou when they're telling you who you are or they're resonating or reflecting what youare, you want to be, your aspirations, and then they tied intothe rest of those touch points, the order process. This is a oneof the kills me. Do you make it easy to give me money,right, or do I put up barriers to paying me? Right? MakeIt easy for me to buy? Is Your service good? Is Your isthe you're getting, your email campaigns, your marketing, all of this matter. Your sales people, if you're marketing and sales, deliver one experience andthen your service people deliver another. Again, you're reckon it right. It allmatters. It's all brand, it's all customer experience. You can defineit anyway you want, but I think that's it. It's the sum totalof all those things. But I don't care what your logo looks like orhow nicer story is. If you don't get back to me, if youdon't answer my question, if you don't help me, you ruined it andI don't care about any that stuff. Right or disconnects, break it,friction will grind it down or send me away. All of that. Idon't know that this is semantics, but I would love to do a littlepassage here where I just ask you to give thoughts on other related words thatoccurred off in the inbound organization and are often kind of up for grabs.Are Different people to find them or think about them differently. And I guessI'll start with alignment, just to go to your you know, sales andmarketing or delivering one thing and ce us is to delivering another. You know, you got to disconnect. So alignment again, is one of the kindof things of the show, especially across those three organizations, all in serviceof the customer. So when I see alignment, does that mean anything inparticular to you? Candidly, you than when I say that word myself,I want to slap myself. I feel like it's it. It rings hollowin my head. It feels like I'm sounding like an salt when I useit, so I tried not to. Really it's about communication, it's aboutteam work, it's about making sure everybody's on the same page. I justthrew you three more cliche so forgive me. But the the point of alignment iswe ruin these words by overusing them so much. And you know,if you sell well, we need to have marketing and sales aligned. Everybodywould say, well, of course we do, but realizes what does thatmean? Where it is? Where's the rubber hit the road? There,where it actually means something to the people that are that are in those departments. So I think alignment's critical. But the Keelie and I think the weekthe point we try to make in the book was Inter departmental or inner departmental. Either is important in terms of alignment, but the real linement is the CEO, leader, founder down. I was at a company that everybody wouldknow. Their name was a national publishing brand, and we had a meetingwith about a hundred of their people in the room and the CEO was sittingthere. All their senior leaders, all their marketing and sales managers were thereand I asked him, I said, what's the mission of this company saidit can. They may tell me the mission, the company, but houndredpeople. I knew what I was going to get. And the only personin the room that raised their hand, and who raised their hand? Whatdo you think? Even the CMO, CEO, okay, Ceeo, roseit because he wrote it. Okay, no one else in the room knewit. Could, could cite it, could, could relate to it.That's Ligneman. You call it whatever you want. That's a disconnect. That'swhere the leadership says one thing and the team says another. And what happenedwas there was a huge disconnect between what the CEO said and what their salesseem said. And I'll give you one example of the misalignment. Heat theyhad this kind of a classic software sales process. You got a Betr,you've got a count executives and you got customer success. That the kind ofthe BEDR was a kind of a light bedr rollers just to try to getthat initial appointment. It wasn't actually adding a whole lot of value. SoI said to the CEO, I said, well, well, would you takea call from somebody that asked these kind of questions to set an appointment. Do you like that? When you set up an initial appointment, youtalk somebody that doesn't actually add any value and you never talked to again.He's like no, I hate that process. So well, why you do it? You got a room full of people over here doing that. Sothat, to me is alignment, and that's where I see the big disconnects. Right it's sales and working need to...

...be aligned, but right now,the top down, that's the alignment I really go after with the clients thatI work with right now. Interesting, probably a hot area and really goodexample in it reminded me to I think you all had a you and Danhad a passage on the golden rule of marketing, which is, you know, as you already said, why are why is your team doing something thatyou absolutely hate? Your your self? All right, how about customer centricity? It's the only way you can survive today. Right again, if yourproduct isn't you can't differentiate on product or pricing or where your promotion strategy are, in those classic marketing things. Right, you've got you've got to understand thembetter than they they and oftentimes understand themselves. This is why today,right now, I hear a lot of sales people do in this in themiddle of this mess, they're making a phone call or they're sending an emailout and saying, how can we help you? Write. That sounds likea good question, that sounds Nice, sounds like I'm being customer centric.Oh, I want to help you, which you should, but that's wrong. Great, don't make them think you should know how you help them andstart with that. Say immediately, I help, I can help you dothis, this and this. How? When can we start? Or howdo you want to get moving? Don't ask them how do you can helpthem, because that's like basically saying what keeps you up at night, whichjust makes you want to go to sleep. Right, right. It's not agood question. So assignment. You're exactly leveraging an assignment on to theonto the customer or problem. Do My job for me, make my lifeeasy, and so I don't to think. And so your job is to knowthem better than they know themselves. And the why you should know thembetter than to know themselves. It's your should be talking to twenty three thousandand fifty a hundred other people just like them. This is the classic PersonaWork Right, you should know and you should have a broader base in manyways of understanding because you're working with more people just like that and you shouldbe able to go in and say, Hey, we're working with these otherfifty companies and they're seeing this. Do you have this issue or can wehelp you with that issue? That's a whole different as a very simplistic wayto do it, but you understand the point. It's if you're not thinkingthat way, in a very deep profound way, then you're not you're goingto miss it. And I did a coaching call with about fifteen sales peopleearlier this week. It was a company I'd done a sales meeting with inFebruary right before the travel stuff all stopped, and I was a follow up callwith them to just fall up on some of the things we talked aboutin the sales meeting and I said to him, I said you know howsome things going there like Oh, you know, there's not much going onright, our guys are slow. You know, we're not mission critical.And I said, well, okay, who needs what you do that ismission critical? This is fifteen salespeople, the sales manager, the marketing manager. Silence, like they didn't. They hadn't thought of it. Are youkidding me? It like your three weeks into a pandemic and you haven't nobody'sthought about how you could help people that are really struggling right now. IsI was stunned. It was like, get off this phone call and gofigure that out right now. That's your number one assignment. So it's justwe're used to thinking product. Where used to thinking service or used to thinkingsoftware? We're it is hard. It's still hard to get out of yourown head and think about customers. And I would I would give this testto your audience and I would say if you think your customer centered, andninety percent of companies are going to say they are. But if you askninety per cent of those those companies, or if you ask those companies customers, like something like ten percent are going to say they're actually customer century.Look at your website. This is my by my platinum test. Look atyour website. WHO's IT for? WHO's a talking to? Is it aboutyour you ors it about them? And that's the test. If your ifyou can put if you're thinking website is is about them and you put ittogether in a way that helps show them how you can help their business,then you're probably more a customer centric than most, but that's the that's usuallythe test to get. I'm industrial manufacturing a lot of bb stuff, sothere's still a lot of people that don't do that very well at all andit's an easy one for me often times. But I still think it's a goodtest. I think it's a good...

...test to and and in in thatanswer there's you're talking about. You know, this difference between here are three waysI can help you right now, versus how can I help you rightnow? It reminded me of you know, I've had a couple prior to joiningbomb on. My ran marketing inside local television stations and we had alot of we were consulted often and the value for the consultant was exactly whatyou did might the value I received was exactly as you described, which isthey're not just talking to me as the marketing director at this local TV stationand like making up, you know, solutions for me on the spot.They're traveling to thirty or forty other clients in between our last visit and bringingback the collected problems, opportunities perspectives and really understood what I was up againstand had stories that could help me see my own work differently. It's justa totally different mindset, and so I love this idea of a Bedr orreally anyone listening. But but the bd are just because that's the seat youwere talking from. They're really being very intentional and conscientious about all of theconversations you're having, what you're picking up, the subtleties, in addition to kindof like the big obvious macro things, things that are true of the personahas written down on paper and things that maybe add some coloring or shadingthat are more interesting to what's written down on the persona piece of paper andusing that to be of real value to the people that you're reaching out to. You mentioned TV there even I'm going to everybody in our space, rightin our world, the the digital inbound world, we all say certain things. The sales process is fifty seven percent over before people call the sales people. I don't believe that. I wrote. It's in the book. I wouldn'twrite it again today. They also say traditional media is dead. Iwould argue with that too. I just went through a campaign with one ofour clients in Illinois and they wanted to reach people that were building owners.They sold roofs. Okay. So the best way to reach people that sofor roofs was not paid as was an inbound worketting. Wasn't content, wasn'tsocial media, it was advertising on cubs games because they were all cubs fans. And I went there, I visit. I was in southern lily driving aroundand I can't tell you how many people I saw that had Chicago cubslogos on their barns or on the side or in their outbuildings. Right alot of rural area, and I was like, I get it now,these guys are all cubs fans, they watch baseballs. That's how you reachit, right. But there is not one salesperson. There's not one,I guarantee. There's not one TV ad salesperson out there that connects the dotsand says, HMM, you maybe you sell roofs. Okay, we havewe can help you grow your business by selling add time. All they dois they think they sell ad time. What they're really selling is eyeballs forpeople who own buildings in rural areas, right, who needs that? Theywho owns, who owns farms, small towns? Right, connect the dotsthere. Now you're thinking customer century. And now of a sudden you caneven make television ads seem like they're valuable, right, and they can be rightfor the right person at the right price for the you know, that'sobviously not a small commitment, financial commitment, right, and so if you canland one of those deals there's a high return on it. So ifyou run a whole bunch of ads at a high cost, it might notwork in some situations, but it may and others. And so the declarationof death of all kinds of things is usually a comedy routine, the wayI read it, and it's usually to the case that it does turn outto be true, it's usually a decade or two too early, and ingeneral it's a both and rather than an either or like that's done this isstarting. It's usually a both and there's no question certain types of traditional mediaare nowhere near as effective as is they they have been in the past.I don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that and or they're over priced. Right, like they might still be valuable, just not at that pricepoint right but it's it's my buddy Dan tires always says the riches or inthe niches. And if you can niche out on audience that watches this typeof television right, then great, you can use that or radio. Right, there's still there, still places,...

...but you've got to know right.You've got to know who your persona is. This this mass media thing wherever we'regoing to hit everybody with the same message. That doesn't work. Butif you can get down to the niche and you can get down to thepersona and the target audience, then then I'm always agnostic when it comes totactics. I could care less what the tactics are. I want to knowwhat works. I want to know what my client wants to put their audienceis actually going to consume. That's what I'm going to use. Yeah,it's good. It's no reason to throw anything out without figuring out the goaland some of the various ways you can get there. Okay, last onehere in this little passage and then we're going to get that. I'm Igot some quotes from the book for You. Right back into your book to getat the ideas and maybe a speed round style, but the last wordthat I would love your thoughts on is personalization. Yeah, the personalization isagain it's heading for the market of one right, where this personalization tokens andemails are Nice, those kind of things are that's not personalization right. Realpersonalization is going to happen when I can pick the customer experience I want,that I can go along the buying path I choose. Now, again,in consumer products and things like software, like what you do, you it'seasier to do that it is in something, to say, like a large pieceof capital equipment. But even so there's multiple a new ways to sellor to consume, even things like capital equipment that didn't exist ten years ago, even five years ago. So I'm going to be able to pick myexperience. I'm going to be able to pick the pacing that I want togo. I either I want to do facetoface meetings or I want to dozoom meetings, or I wanted to chat communication, I would do phone communications. I'm going to pick the way I want to engage with you and I'mgoing to personalize the process. That doesn't mean again, buyers won't need help. I think the idea that inbound is about eliminating sales people is an erroneousone and I think in bounds got a little bit of a bad rap incertain circles because of it. It sales people are more important when it comesin bound. Right. In bound to me is that you get to befound when they look or when they need you. But when they find you, then you are an expert and you guide them through the process. Theymay not know how to go from Point A to point B, they don'tknow how to get all the stakeholders internally aligned. They don't know how toevaluate all the different options or the competitors. Your job is a salespersus help themdo that. No, no one article, no one thing's going tosolve that for a complex sale. If you've got a transactional sale, fine, you could probably be a hundred percent inbound. Go digital ads, nevertalk to a human being. And if you're over here on the curve andcomplexity, it's going to be far less in bound and way more kind oftraditional sales where you think about like network solutions for software for companies or again, to mention capitalquipment, which is when I handle a lot. Right there'sa lot of moving parts there. Nope. People make research, say a milliondollar laser system online, but they're not going to buy it because theysaw a blog post were your white paper was amazing. Where do I sign? It's not going to have it. You got to get engineering involved,plant management, the electrical guys, the production guys, the product is there'sa bunch of stakeholder. So that's not in bound. Right, inbounds goingto affect that. They're the ideas of inbound should influence that process. Sharingcontent, helping for free self service content, again being helpful. First, allthe principles we talked about are still there. But it's still going tobe very complex sale and it's going to have it's going to take a longtime, it's going to have a lot of stakeholders. Right. So there'sstill a huge opportunity for sales people to act like their inbound and apply itto those complex situations, which is what I love to do. That's mything that I like to work on. I don't like the transaction so much, I like the complex. Love it. I and the one thing I reallyappreciate about what you did with personalization. There's so many people think of itwhere you started, which is my emails or, you know, mymessaging, but you took it immediately to the experience level of how can wemake this experience personalized? All right, so inbound organization. I love thebook. I actually had Dan on the...

...show and talked about it. I'mexcited to have you. I tried to do this as a lightning round withDan and you can predict how that at how that worked out and folks canhere not episode forty. So I'm going to try similar and so just giveme like your quick we're sponse to when I give you a line from fromthe book that you authored. Just give me a couple thoughts on it.You got it from the open. You don't want to find people who fitthe culture, you want to find people who add to it. That's realdiversity. If you ask me, great, right. You said short answers.That was I gave you a Bab you one prak yeah, okay,I want I want to I want to see diversity of opinions and ideas andthought processes in the way they look at the world. That's really going todrive your culture right. Frame it up, give him a frame people, aframework for people to work in. Given the guard rails and let himrun. Love it, and that's that is like a really nice add tothe additive piece there at the end. Okay, from the regarding content,the value people get from your content is related to the amount of thought youput into it. Great quote from I think it was David McCullough, oneof my favorite historians. I love historical writing. He said writing is thinkingand I love that quote because you have to think first. You anybody canwrite, anybody can put things down the paper, but to real writing,which is content, is about really about what your message is, and soit really requires you to think. And that gets back to all the otherthings we were just talked about, customer centricity and pathetic. Put yourself ontheir shoes, right, and that's probably one of the reasons we so seeso much bad content. If your sales reps are still using a traditional salesplaybook, you may be frustrating your prospects and customers. My goodness, ONS, the last time you got a cold Koe Ethan I'm going to watch onmy phone is nowhere, but I get tons of cold emails and tons ofcold linkedin messages. Well, we all hate the colde emails, right sosomebody's running that playbook and they don't work. But my my favorite is the is, the is the cold calls. I love cold calls. I answerthem because I want to hear what people are being taught, and they're beingtaught this. Hello, is this todd my answer is this. I say, what's the name on your call sheet? They stop, they go what,and they say well, how are you today? I said, youdon't really care. That's my answer. Like they have no response, they'redone, and it's like that's somebody who's running a traditional playbook. They puta bunch of people in a room and said follow the script. And you'reannoying me by a calling me number one, and then you're annoying me twice bysaying what my name is, what you already know, and second ofall, you don't care how I am wasting my time again. Get tothe point, have a value proposition to be able to communicate it quickly.If I'm interested, I'll say that's interesting, tell me more, but your Idon't even let you get there. If you run that old playbook,and so many people still run those old garbage playbooks. That's why I breakit up. Love it, I appreciate the passion there too. Okay,kind of sales service here. Your Service Organization is more important than your salesorganization when it comes to generating net new customers. Yep, well again welive in the I just interviewed Mark Shaffer, who just came up with a fabulousbook marketing rebellion. Check out his book, and he talked about thisa lot, and David Meir Rescott's new book fancocracy also talks about this alot. Your customers, ratings, reviews, they become your best sales people becausepeople trust third party generated content. So if your service people weren't takingcare of them, your third party content stinks, your ratings are bad,so therefore you're not getting there's that new customers. It's that simple. Yourservice people may better take care of them, because those customers should be your bestsalespeople. Awesome. You'll love this quote from just a recently released episodewith Ed Brial the the cmoda digital asset management company called a Primo, andhe told me, when I interviewed him from the show, that he hadto Mantras for two thousand and twenty and I'll just give you one of themand his is the customer is the new...

...marketer and he's just trying to takethis in and kind of operationalize it in some kind of a new, moredeveloped way. Okay, service, for most modern buyers, self service isexcellent service. Well, we work seven all kind of weird hours and times. Right, if I'm going your website and I want to see how tosolve a problem or get some certain information, I want to be able to getthat quickly. Again, if it gets more complex, I want tobe able to find the right person and have that connected to that person quickly. Don't put me in the here's another old playbook. Please listen to allthese options, because there are menus recently changed and you have to listen tothis foolish menu, or the other one is where this is being recorded forquality purposes. Give me a break. It's see why purposes. It's notquality purposes. And so again those are the old playbooks and those are killingself service. It makes me want to just scream when I hear those seethose things make it easy for me to get to the people I want right. Use The classic website navigation idea that you should have everything within three clicks. There's every service touch point you offer the equivalent of three clicks away fromthe answer shoot for something like that. Yeah, now, they're nice practicalrule here that you've that you've offered last one, and this was from theclose. We are all connected and no one can succeed alone. Well,it's that's more poignant than ever right now in the middle of this mess.And Yeah, this is a tough time and I think that the companies thatunderstand how how to be human and be understanding and empathetic and not self servingare the ones that win. And I will tell you another one. I'mgoing to go out on a limb here on this one, and that thecompanies that treat their employees right through this process are going to be the onesthat win. Number One, your employees do the exact same thing we justtalked about with customers. Employees tell other people how it is to work foryou and if you treated them poorly, if you let them go, ifyou if you as the first opportunity, you cut a bunch of your people, that's going to be online. It's going to be on things like glassdoor. They're to tell their friends. It's going to hurt you and frankly, if I know personally, if I know you treat your employees that way, I'm not coming back. Because now's the time when we need to pulltogether and say I'm going to do a little extra for my players, I'mgoing to take care of them, I'm going to ask more of them maybe, but I'm also going to take care of companies that do that. Itshould be the ones that win and they rightfully should be recognized for doing itso good. In you know, we often talk about the employee experience asa necessary precursor of an excellent customer experience, and it's really interesting to think about. You know, up to this point. We'll see how it allshakes out, but especially in kind of competitive industries and hard to find talent, you have to market your organization essentially and create employee experiences and build intothe employee the same way you need to go to market for your customers.Customers and employees, to me, or like breathing and eating. You gotto do both. They're not the same, they're both critical. You can't livewithout them, right. Yeah, so it's not a matter of oneor the other, or first or second, it's they're both important. Yeah,I did, but I think historically we've probably taken the employee relationship forgranted, whereas the customers, you know, always been in the conversation. Allright, before we go to a couple fun closing elements, I wouldlove, I know you you think about and talk a lot about mindset,and so I just love for you to kind of, you know, teait up nice and easy for you hit it wherever you want to go.You know, why is mindset so important and what? What's maybe a mindsettip that people listening can take away? Well, I guess. I guessthe mindset piece that's so critical is it ultimately comes back as to why you'rethere you. Are you there for yourself? Are you if you're the leader ofa business or your league, of a group or division or even ateam? Are you there for yourself? Are you there for your ego?Are you there for your own monetary game,...

...or you there for your own career? Are you there for whatever selfish reason you can think of? Oryou there to contribute to other people? And I think this is just afundamental human thing. Right. There's givers and takers, and the the giverswill win, the takers will be found out and in the world, thatthe the we're living in now and the world that we're moving forward to,the people that are that care about others first, that put others ahead ofthemselves. These are not new ideas. E. Think these go way backand the people that think of others first and put the success of other peoplefirst would be the ones that do well. And, frankly, it's just theright way to live. And again, all the stuff that's going on rightnow, I think the mindset of people first over profits. I mean, you got to profits, I know, I get it, but there's atime and there's a place and there's a way to grow business in away that also grows people and is helpful to people both inside the company andout, and that's the mindset leaders have to have. And and it's hardwhen it's the survival question right though. It's me versus them, but they'resurviving and they're surviving. So I think, you know, I'd go back toclassical literature. This is even marketing stuff right. I'm going back towithout getting too philosophical with you, I'd go back to kind of classic literatureabout why we're here. Think about you know what what what our purposes here, and very rarely is it going to be to make money. So findthat core purpose, tie back into that. People to really really understand that andlive that are going to be the ones that, I think, you'regoing to see the most success. Awesome, that's fantastic. I encourage folks tohit the bounce back on it and, especially with those open questions, behonest with yourself, you know, as I was trying is as followingalong with your questions for myself as like yeah, a little bit, yeah, a little bit. I mean I definitely have selfish motivations and that's okay. I just need to be aware of them and to think about, youknow, how I'm making my decisions and what my real motivations are. As, as you know, feelings become thoughts become the actions, and that's justbeautiful. I'm really encouraged by your future. Thank you. I hope it comesto pass. I live it every day. I'm I've been very blessedand I've I've had a just passed eleven years with our business top line results, and it's my wife and I, so it's a joy every day towork together and I've just love it. I love working with her and workwith my daughters and my business and and lots of great people. So we'rehelping each other and we're trying to help our clients the best we can andwe just do that and the more we do that, the more successful weare. When I start thinking about money or aren't trying to think about closingthe big deal. That's what I don't get them interesting. It's so goodand I just think it's just so fundamentally attractive. I think that's how youattract good team members. Obviously yours have some level of commitment just baked inby the fact that that some of them your family members. But you know, I do think good good attracts good. Like attracts like and it builds onit on itself, and so that's awesome. Love it. I'm soglad I asked that. So for folks who enjoyed this conversation, of course, I had todd's co author, Dan Tire on episode forty of this podcastand that one was called the biggest transformation and prospecting in thirty years. Weended up talking a lot about video, in simple videos places some of ourtyped out text and then a couple episodes later I had Sangramvagere, who's thecofounder and chief of angelist determinus, and we talked about five ways internal alignmentcan elevate your customer experience. So we were a bit more inward facing,we were a little bit more culture and process and alignment oriented in that conversation. So you'll enjoy those two. So, todd, this is great. I'mso glad we're able to spend time together. I have a few morethings, though, before I let you go. I always like, becauserelationships are our number one core value among five, I like to give youthe chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your lifeor your career. What we've been talking about. Dan Tire from hub spot. I'll mention Dan because it was I...

...learned so much from him. Wereworking on the book together and he is just such a universally insistently positive,uplifts being person. I told you I just did a conversation. I hada conversation with Dan another person this morning and he spent the first three minutestelling the other person how great I was, and I said there's only other personin the world that does that. As my mom and she doesn't evendo it as much as Dan, and he's part of it's a bigger piecethere. And the companies I appreciate. Hub Spot, who's connected we're DanWorks, is also one I really appreciate, having worked with them for over tenyears and seeing their response to the this situation, how they've come outwith new products and I can see some things on the back end how they'rereally trying to take care of customers and do the right thing. That's impressiveand he's a big part of that. And so those two the company inperson, are big ones. There's lots of other ones, but they hasbeen a special friend and mentor and a coach and and just a lot ofthings, and so it was a great opportunity write a book with them becausewe got to spend a lot of time together, and so Dan was abig influence on me, for sure. Awesome and I really enjoyed it.I guess I should have recorded it. We were talking a little bit abouthow that project came together between the two of you and has a pleasure andin what you offered there. What a great example of you know, leadingby giving, you know, spending three minutes propping you up like for noparticular reason except that he likes to give credit where it's due. So,besides hub spot, do you maybe want to give mentioned to a company thatyou really appreciate or enjoy or respect for the experience that they that they deliverfor you as a customer? This is going to be kind of odd.My doctor. I'm excited already. Who you don't? Nobody, you want. I can know my doctor. But they have, they have. Firstof all, they already had figured out how to set up appointments correctly,give me a portal online to get all of my information in one place.They figured out. I don't know how they did. It's a miracle.They figure out how to actually get me into the office when I was scheduled. I don't know how they do it. I think they actually learn how tokeep a schedule. What a concept, right. So I was already thrilledlike that. They you know, I get there, I give theinformation, I'm in the office, I'm in the room within a minute ortwo, like never sit there. It's great. Everything's digital. I don'thave paperwork, they any prescriptions or whatever, all automatically. Those the farmers it'sall set up super easy. Then in this mayhem, they went totell a medicine and now we're doing you can do these kind of things.I have. I luckily I haven't had any reason too, but they immediatelyswitch to tell a medicine like that. And so that, to me,is a small business that is flexible and it's thinking about their customers, thinkingabout the concerns I might have in a time of uncertainty and giving me optionsand really great ways to connect. And I think that's the message for anycompany, doesn't matter if you're a solo preneur or a giant company. Now'sthe time to pivot and really think about what those other people want and andthose are the people, those are the companies that are going to really I'mgoing to remember, we're all going to remember great powerful story there, becausethat's all customer experience in like exceeding expectations. That mean. It's shocking how lowthat expectation was of like am I going to you know, for mymy appointments at two? Am I going to get in it to thirty ortwo hundred and forty five or what I like? That's a very low expectation, but the idea that no one beats it. Rarely beats it except forthis this team. Here's my favorite. You go into the doctor's office orthe dentist or whoever, and they say, if you miss an appointment, we'regoing to charge you thirty. Right, but yet I'll sit there for anhour, my rate higher than thirty an hour. You're going to giveme, pay me for my hour you wasted. Heck now, right,I will say, just for just so you can feel some kinship. SharonTorik, who is a an attorney, marketing law attorney, intellectual property attorney, I had her on. We talked about things that you're marketing team isdoing that maybe illegal, and she took the opportunity to prop up her dentist'soffice and the language there was around concierge...

...style service from her dentist's office.So I've only heard that. I've asked this of dozens and dozens of people, maybe more than seventy, and so I've only had what other answer quitelike yours. So for folks and enjoy this conversation. Tad, if theywant to follow up with you or topline results or the manufacturing show that youhost or inbound organization. Where some places you would send people if they enjoyedthis conversation? Well, thanks for offering the easiest place to find all thatis at our website, top line resultscom, or you can just google todd hockenberry. I'm on you'll find pull up a bunch of stuff. I'm onLinkedin. I'll to connect with you there and I do a podcast called themanufacturing show and it's really focused on the industrial and manufacturing world and love youto check that out as well. And there's also a site for the bookin bound Organizationcom. Lots of Info there too. Awesome, Tad, thankyou so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I absolutely lovethe book. I really appreciate your approach to work into life and I appreciateyou sharing it here on the customer experience podcast. Ethan my pleasure. Thankyou for allowing to be on the show. Cool. Have a good afternoon.Clear Communication, Human Connection, higher conversion, these are just some ofthe benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easyto do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book.Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learnmore in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks forlistening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. ContinueLearning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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