The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

84. 10 Rules for Building a Category & Community w/ Sangram Vajre


We all want to belong to a tribe. The greatest way to grow your business is not to build your brand or throw events — it’s to grow a community around the solution to a problem.


In this episode, I interview Sangram Vajre, Chief Evangelist and Co-Founder at Terminus, about how he created the category of and community around account-based marketing (ABM).


We cover:


- A lightning round discussion of the 10 rules of category creation


- What unbranding really means (& how to do it)


- The reasons to promote people, not products


- How Sangram’s goal to educate about a problem created a movement


Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:


- ABM is B2B, Sangram’s most recent book


- The #FlipMyFunnel movement that Sangram originated


- The #FlipMyFunnel Podcast, well into its 600th episode


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

We own the natter dive from Bay when we never led the nargive slop and don't need to create a unitative that market can move at that threation. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte, ten rules for building a category and for building a community. That's what you're getting here on this episode, and it's coming from someone who's been a driving force, or the driving force behind a new category and several communities. The category is account based marketing and he wrote two books on it, account based marketing and ABM is B Tob. He created the flip my funnel movement, a community and events series and a daily podcast. It's more than six hundred episodes deep now. Andy cofounded terminus and ADM software company with the nearly FIVEZERO percent growth rate over the past few years. We share a title chief evangelist, but he had at first and his inspired mind he's an exceptional human being and someone you must follow on Linkedin in particular for all the lives that he's doing with great guests and important topics. Sangrumvager, a welcome back to the customers hearings podcast here. You just saw me. Can you get a give me a copy of that introduction? I'll give it to everybody to something. You just made me sound really cool. Absolutely. I I happy to copy and paste that before we get go in and it's good to have you back. Before you get going. You're in the Atlanta area. It's it's midmay. What's the situation there for for you or your family or your team or your customers around the pandemic? Interesting, like, as you probably can learn. Know people who are listening me laugh, but like I got my son sitting right behind me because I'm like, you know what, if I'm going through this and you're going through this, so we're going through this together. He's doing his whole work or watching some stuff and while I'm doing all customer calls, executive calls, podcast, whatever it might be. And I think what's interesting to me is that I think we have gone from board rooms to living rooms without a whole lot of time to rethink and transition and refrain and we just jumped into it. And I've remember a conversation I had with with someone in early January and they said our business can never go, never go remote, like there are business that lifeblood or culture is like everything. And now they told me like they're actually having the best time as a business because they they are having super efficient they've grown somehow their business actually work better online. They just didn't know that. So it is so interesting. So there is there's two parts of me. I feel like I'm probably similar for you. This is one part of me that is like hardbrook and looking at this is that's like, oh my God, there's so many businesses that are not functioning well, so many people have lost jobs, so many difficult time so we buill have lost lives and the things doesn't seem to be completely vlarity. The same for a lot of lots of lots of people. And then the other part of me, which is the optimistic entrepreneur of me, is like Oh man, only like let no crisis ever be left without turning that into an opportunity. So I see every organization, every person is like now is the time like literally now, when everybody's on their back seat, you have an opportunity to do something really, really grave for your community, for your organization, for yourself. So I have this two emotions simultaneously going through and flowing through me, and that's where my heart is. Yeah, it's really good and I see both of those two and it's it's hard not to. It's hard not to recognize both sides of that and to your to the...

...optimistic side of what you offered there, which is just beautiful. I have this confidence that we are, as a broader culture, despite some of our laws. You know, I feel very competent, that there's enough energy and creativity and simply a will to survive and thrive that anything that this new environment presents to us. As we kin kind of keep figuring out where this whole thing's going, some people are going to build business models and employee people around whatever is changed in different so as much destruction as there is from an economic standpoint, I trust that as a community of people who want to work and solve problems and be of value, that will figure it out and they are enough leaders, I think, to create those opportunities for all the people that might not see them see those opportunities for themselves. So that was awesome. Thank you for thank you for that. You've already done this once, but I'm to ask you to do it again, but I say customer experience saying room. What does that mean to you? Well, I've done this before, by the way. Am I how many times have you had people come back to your podcasts? Only once? Oh Man, I feel lucky. I'm lucky and blessed. Thanks for having me again. That's cool. Customer experience to me is how it's your brand perception. Ultimately, yeah, I think we all know, and you've heard this, that you're you know you are what what people say you are, not what you think you are. You might have your own perception around your brand and your company, and I we solve this and then you go out and ask you of your customers and they have an and died a different perception of who you are or what you do. Do that that's it, like you have to help change that. Otherwise you can say all you want in your in your office. So I think custom experience is just that. Nobody ever says, Oh, they're marketing sucks, but their sales is amazing. Right, like nobody does that. No, nobody goes on GTWO and says that, Oh, Oh, we love terminus, the executive team, but we hate there. You know, customers excited, like nobody does that. People love brand. So there's no handoffs, there's no nothing. It's brand. Is a brand, as a brand is just you at the fully se have to own the responsibility for good and own the responsibility for the great and all the responsible, whatever is bad, all do together. So I think it is what others say about you really good. It's exactly I mean. I say similar. It's I say that it rolls up to those stories. You know, it starts as the feelings that we leave people with, how they feel about us and about all of our people, not just that one team or that one person, and you're right about that too. Is You know, we don't just compartmentalize these things. I only have so much mental capacity to commit to a brand or product or service. You're all kind of one thing to me, and it's favorable or its negative and capable of being saved, or its worst case scenario in a lot of situations is just neutral. I don't really have any strong feelings. Let's go to two other words. You don't need to define them. But you know, we're talking about category and we're talking about community. What's the relationship between them? Do you see them as somewhat synonymous? And, you know, what's the state of affairs right now? Do you feel like they're more important than ever? I feel like it's a yeah, question talk about can talk about category and community and how they relate to one another? Yeah, so category is probably more important of a word for maybe founders are somebody who's in venture capitalist or somebody who in more on the more on that side of the House. Right like you're trying to build an entirely grand new category. It's more of an entrepreeur conversation. Community is, I think, where we all are like. We all want to be part of a community, and now more than ever, we want to be part of a community. So you know this this thing that I always say that without a community you're simply a commodity. And last week I did a talk at leader Gast and I introduce this new phrase that you know. We had a exchange on Linkedin on that, which is I think leadership itself has become more and...

...more diluted and what I mean by that is every single person can define leadership in their own way, shape from form, and it's different because people are different, leadership is different. But what hasn't changed since the beginning of time that we all can think about and go back, is the idea that we always lived and build around a tribe, a community, and there was always a community leader, if you want to see or tribe leader, and if you're a DC or a founder or entrepreneur, think about that as your category leader. Right, everyone owns something that said that this is part of it, and then everybody else wanted to be part and select which dribe you want to be part, and I think that is so true and as always been true as people, for us. So to me, the both ideas are really interesting, but the words are used in a very different context with him, who you're talking about, and it's really important now more than ever. Yeah, I agree, and it's it is interesting when you take it back all the way. I mean we're a social species and are we have individual identities, but it's formed in part by those around us and we gravitate toward people who make us feel better about ourselves, are like to fulfill our identity. Or help change it or something. It's really interesting when you take it to that level. So I want to go through. You put up this post a while ago now, but it's I love it. It's such a great list. Is a presentation. You gave it emory university there in Atlanta. You you may have given it elsewhere, but it's essentially ten rules to create a category. Before we get into them, why did you bring this talk in particular, I'm going to assume, and correct me where I'm wrong, that you had a relationship there and someone's like Hey, sang rum, would you come to know share some wisdom with our class and why did you bring this conversation and kind of how did it go and did the students engage on it? Yeah, that's a great question, man. So Jeff Berkens, shout out to him. He's a CMO OF PARK mobile here in Atlanta and he does guest lectures at embery. So he was just looking at different topics for his marketing course and that he was teaching as a faculty to bring in people from different perspectives and you wanted me to come and talk about this idea of like how is it that we built a category or the whole business around this idea of a candass marketing in Atlanta game, because he has seated, he has, you know, the front row seats and in his words, I think what we did it was something that he didn't think most organizations would even start doing. It's not fun in the books that marketing students go through. So he wanted to bring something totally new and new and interesting and the class was very much engaged. The class kept asking. We waited at the way and and they said not once. And this is why I was a bad or good things. You can be the judge or fit and let the community judge for themse up, they said not once. You told us what your company does and what you do at that company, but I'm on your website and checking it out now. I'm like, that's exactly my point, and then I was done. It's so good. It reminds me of your kind enough to, allow me, to guess, host a series on flip my funnel and you were one of my four guests. It was about chief evangelism and that one of the best up series that I'm so great for. You did that. Yeah, thank you. It was awesome. It is so fun to do and I learned so much about it. But that was a theme. Is Certainly in our conversation and certainly with the one with Dan Steinman from gainsite, where it's you. You teach about the problem, and now I'm getting into the list a little bit, but you know, you teach and talk and build community around the problem or the opportunity, not around the product itself. It's not about the band or whatever, but in invariably, and I definitely remember this in particular from Dan Stein and he said anytime I would get off of a stage and you know people come up front, some share of the audience always comes up to engage you in some people ask you a follow up question about the content in particular killer. But then the other half of the half of the people say exactly what you just said, which is I don't quite know what gainsight does, but tell me more...

...about the product. How much does it cost, what does it do for me, etcetera. And so it's this. It's a it's pre sales, but it doesn't have to be. It's and I know you attached to a Guy Kawasaki, shared about that too, which is it's the do you remember what exactly what he said. I think he said Guy then getting. For people who don't know guy got, was like he was the first chief evangelist of any Tech Company. It was a it was an apple, the first and only chief evangelist for that matter. I think he said that chief evangelism is the purest form of sales. Exactly right. Yes, right, and I was really interesting for me to to think about. is like, is it purest form of sales? Were ultimately you are, you've been and then that the point is, like in you know this, like I get to speak at twenty, thirty different events every like at these, but physically, until this happened. Now we're to but physically every single and and sometimes me got even paid for me to come and speak. Now, that does not happen if you're going on a stage and pitching your co organization. Right. So that's the point of evangelism, that's the point of building a community that people stop focusing on for a minute, they forget waiting there, what company was that, and they get immerged into the problem and they start nodding with you on what's going on and feeling that, oh, that person understands my problem and now they're all of us that have an affinity. What who you are, and then whatever you represent, and if you whatever you represent, they want to be part of that and that's how you start building the very fust tenants of your community work. So that was a fascinating interview with guys. So thanks for setting that up. Yeah, the IT reminds me we've both been in an at enough events and you know that there's a lot of pay to play out there, and so a lot of the people that are on these stages are just coming out like they're not even thinly veiled. They're not even veiled at all. They're just straight sales pitches and typically they're not very good presentations at all. So it's when you come with a true excitement and passion about how other people can benefit from the ideas, not from a paid subscription or whatever, it differentiates you immediately from a lot of the other people that share that same stage. So let's get into these ten let's do this as a speed round. I'll read them and you just give me like your first thought on it and then we'll go deeper into a few of them, because obviously we don't have time to do them all. But I do want to run through them, so just give me your first thought about them as I go. Number One, talk about the problem, not about your product. If it community is created around a problem, not a product product. Who Change and should change. You can fall in if you fall in love with the product. If it doesn't work, you feel like your failure. If you are, if you fall in love with the problem, you can have a community and they will give you a pass until you figured out the dry type of solutions, as long as you need it. So community really gives the problem focused idea really gives you a much longer of a runway than a product focused conversation might do. So good number to tell a story that matters. This is Bart. We all know. Stories stick all along have. Each one of us can tell stories from our childhood and whatnot. So stories are is. Are Different Than Case Studies. Stories are different than videos of of of a very cruel crafted program that you just did. Stories are actually saying that he look, here's how I failed, here's my problem, here is what I learned from it, here's what I thought it was, but it's not, and here's what I found out it was. So stories is like taking people on a journey and if you get good at that, you can get people on a journey which late leads to for them to follow in you or be with you on that, and that is a really good way to start. Whatever group you're sorry out there. It is, and I like the subtext there of honest and approachable. You know, it's part of part of the story, mattering to someone else's, that they can...

...relate to it because it's not overproduced. Number three, bring the top thought leaders together who care about the problem. Is the classic challenge where I remember in the very early days like nobody knew me, and it's not like getting really knows me, but at that time absolutely zero. If there was now it's one, then at that time was zero. Number of people you make and what it was turned out to be. The best thing we did was we said, you know what, we don't need to own the microphone over here. We just need to bring people together. We need to bring the people who people listen to it, because if they listen to that person, then ten people will show up for every person we bring in. And that's how we got the first three hundred people to the first clip Mark Conference and we then started doing that like ten or twelve conference we have done. So the ideas that bring people, give them the platform that's so that they can share your problem, your message and the problem that you're focused on from the platform. And if their messages is starting to spread and your message will spread with them. So it really amplifies everything. Love it. Number four here is bring the best practitioners together who care about the solution. Yeah, so this is a big thing. We realized. It is good and I'm great. It is good to bring talk leaders who have tons of following because they will bring some sort of just just overall ethos with them to the to the whole thing. It's going to make your event look legitimate and then not getting wellknown people who actually give practical advice are the things that people really care about. So having a good blend at any conference, any community, when you're doing bring the big tae that can in that, that people would pay money for, if you think about it, and that's great. But real value is in the core hordes of people where they see you know what, yeah, I need some tech tactical stuff that that person is talking about, and so a good mix of that is wore important. Don't do one where the other? Yeah, and then someone I can relate to. It's like that's someone who is in a seat that's a lot like the seat that I'm in. Their problems every day are my problems or they experience it the same way. I do really good, I think. Last one in what feels like a three part series here is bring number five. Bring competitors together who can help the community. So you've got you've got thought leaders, practitioners, and you built that bridge nicely, but you also bring competitors in. Yeah, so this is the part where you can actually go from a company event to an industry man so a company event would be, or user conference would be, where only your customers come in and you do all the same amount of effort. But as soon as you get competitors involved, they will bring their folks over there too, and all those that are you become an industry conference. And if you become an industry conference, then you'll actually have media over there and list over there, you will have all often of conversations or happening over there, because now people want to be at that conference. So where at three different conferences? Right? So bringing competitors might seem like the rookie move or almost like I'm digging a bad stage backstage. But ultimately I feel like if you are good, if you're doing if you're focus on the problem, none of the product, if you're focused on the problem, then you will bring in thought heaters, practitioners and competitors. It actually makes you look more legitimate that, oh, they are going to going for baths for me and they're OK, hey, that means they must have something that they're confident about and you will come and talk you at your boot. Yeah, it's really it's a little bit counterintuitive, it's a little bit bold, but it makes so much sense. Again, for folks that are listening. These are ten rules to help build a category and to build a community. We've gotten through five already. If you don't want to write these down, you can go to Bombombcom podcast. I'll have all of them in there and, of course, other links and other benefits related to this episode, and so you can. Don't don't feel obligated to write these down. They're all at Bombabcom podcast. Number six. Put on a show to bring the message to the masses right like. That's where I feel we did with the conferences. I...

...remember we wanted to do, like how do we launch our business? How we let the one know that the exist? And the way we did that was just launting a flip my phone conference and order the conference does. It almost puts everybody at a pause and takes three people out of the comfort zone to a physical or virtual location, and then now you're all part of that conversation. So I think a lot of people put a whole bunch of effort in just one on activities going on, but never create something where people have to stop and pause and look at what's going on, and that requires a lot of things to come together. Yeah, it's good. It's how you generate that engagement where people are they can't not participate. It's a show number seven on brand everything, because it's not about you. It's hard. That's probably one of the hardest things. We still today thelma foul exist as an independent thing. So today we are booth just like everybody else. We do not have I still do the keynote, but my keynote is not about terminus. It's about the state of the Union, of where the marketing is going and all that stuff. So it always creates this interesting tension internally where? Wait a minute, we're putting this together our effort, and why are we not whether or not going on there? And like, people are not stupid. They know what's going on, they know that you're investing in it, and so you don't need to overly put in their face. You need to be there and hustle the same way everybody else's. That shows that you actually got the guts to go do this thing. But when you're putting and when your goal is to create an industry conference, Gosh, you need to think way bigger than a user conference. Number Eight, and this is Harkens back a little bit to number one. Educate, educate, educate about the problem in the solution. Yeah, now this is where this is where you don't you said there's a part of all this. So far, you've sent the stage, set the dinner table, you invite. You don't know. If people don't know who the host is, you got a problem right like. That is not the goal there. So it's every given point you need to be able to figure out, okay, we're going to have set the table and write the people to the Party and make sure that you do the toast and people know what's this is all about or where you're going. So part of this is making sure that you own the narrative. So what we needed in our case we went in and, as you said, a daily podcast. We end up running two books on it. So we made sure that they're always innovaiting an aditative collectively from all the input we're getting from the conferences everything else. But we own the native from day when. We never let the narrative slip and continue to create a unitative that market can move in that direction. Really good. Number nine, right enough that it becomes a standard framework, a real book the university like. There are a lot of different ways to do it, but right enough that it becomes a standard. Yeah, so you know this. Like even for the flip follow is a framework. That team thing that we put in a bean is bet is a framework. So everything we do is creating a standard there. So it's easily one of the things one of my favorite speakers is a pastorn in Atlanta and he stanley and he talks about this idea that if it's not if it's not repeatable, you know it's not memorable, and if it's not memorable it's not scalable. So you need to figure out ways to make it repeatable, memorable and scalable in every way from it's not just a marketing thing, it's not just a business thing, it's not just a product thing within your message. You need to do that. So part of it is like creating frameworks. We created frameworks, we created ABMU, we created like all these different things. Just get people to be part of that story beyond in event that you might have put on. Yeah, what I love about one of the implications of what you just shared there is that word of mouth and in the communities, like a community members ability to tell someone who's maybe one foot in one foot outside of the community, to be able to bring them in. But they need to it needs to be memorable, I need to be able to repeat it and it needs to be repeated, probably in a word of mouth context,...

...and that is how the community grows, one person with influence over one other person at a time. Grow, grow, grow ten and finally give credit to the community, not to your company. Yeah, so this is this is where. Do you know how the full mouth podcast rolls? Right today it's a daily podcast. I would really just do one episode Tuesday Day. Goers are done by. But fine folks like you, Wednesday and Thursday are the repeat audios from all the conferences we have done. So they get the credit for it. So we continue to do that and I feel like ultimately our success is seeing more people having the jobs in the industry with ABM in their title. We look at the successes like not how many people have signed up for our conference or event, but like how many people are getting promoted in their business. Has To do that. So finding way we created this a being fumoff awards at the end of the year that we give out two people a real big thing that they can put on their desks, and so we want to really celebrate that with people and beyond just saying that, well, this doesn't say terminus prophe it says the muffollow trophy. Yeah, I like the celebratory aspect of that. Obviously we can't go deep into all of them, although I appreciate I think we did a pretty good job with the speed round version of the top ten there. Thank you for that. But you know, when you think about that list, and obviously these are things that you've developed over the years and you know, as you've I'm assuming, that you're, you know, kind of around this education and writing piece that you're just constantly developing these ideas. When you think about this list, what are two or three that you think are misunderstood or big opportunities or compelling in some other way? When you think about this list and you think about the people that you're interacting with on Linkedin or the you know, people that you used to spend time with physically, who are you know, maybe back when we could do that, you know what add at flip my funnel conferences and things are. What are two or three that that kind of stand out to you in some compelling way? Or you can start with one at a time. Yeah, it's a great question. I think probably the most misunderstood are not leveraged enough. Is the idea that is really the number one, which is the problem focus. So I keep saying this over and over again, that create a problem market fit, not a product market fit. So most software people know in the SASS businesses that Oh, we got to get brock market fit, which means that we got to have hundred customers and you know doing being them and exolves an hour and like. That's all fine, but you hit a wall at some and what you really can do with this idea of the long ship and this idea without a community or a commodity, thing of building a community at first is what sales for, is Di what bring with Dreamforce, what help spot did with within bad or what we're trying to do with flip my phone, is this idea that, look, we are so focused on the problem that we will forego, for go this idea that we came up with the idea or we had anything to do with the idea. We will forgo that sor remember conversation with Bran Halligan about this. They never trade mark in back and I asked him like why didn't you trade market, and he said because the best ideas are things that you want to you want to just give it away so that there will be more adaption off it. If we actually held it, patented it and put all together. You know, we're not colke right like we we came. You know, it's not a we're not doing that. We we it's a different model, different business. So we needed to build a community and now if anybody wants to compete with us, they will have to go through this. Twenty Thou raving fails. Fans Wall to climb up to in order to jump into and then maybe so they might be able to compete with our product. So I think the challenge that that I've seen people run into is that it is so deep. It has to be so deep that typically in all these organization what's...

...common is it's typically run by even the founder or the sear of the organization. Let again go back to some examples. Mark Nya, like Brian Halligan, like these are all see of the gameside like Nigmata. You think about the founder of the CEO has to be fully vested in it. It is not a one off marketing campaign because it will be sharp lived and it will be gone, but it has a founder. You have to fully vested in it, which means you have to be rested in the company for a longer brood of time, not print of flipped. So all that creates a really challenging, challenging case for most organizations. But the companies will do it and the people who do it they typically have a Tenex return on their investment. So there's a right set. Yeah, in a very compelling one. I love that. I love guys. Just thinking open sources. You were talking about inbound and why not to trademark or patented or anything. I just kept thinking of like people that are open sourcing code and just you know, this is going to be so much more valuable if it plugs into more things and more people can use it and there's no reason to kind of hoard it up. You kind of hit on something that that went in a direction that I would like to go a little bit deeper on, and that's this idea of and it's related to kind of number seven, which you had it, you know, which is unbrand everything and how challenging that can be. I think you know the philosophical piece of let's stop just talking about our brand name and our product all the time and let's start talking about the problem. This idea of unbranding, you know, probably calls into in calls out like what's the Roi around this? Why are we doing these things that don't have our brand on them and all that, and that kind of rolls into the question that I have for you, which is for an organization that likes these ideas and says, okay, this sounds like this might be for us, it sounds consistent with something that we would like to do, or we have some seeds planted that seemed like they have potential for a really good community. Even if it doesn't, even if it's not a new category, let's say, how can someone operationalize this or get going around these kind of ten activity areas? I mean, you're obviously in a unique position where you have a lot of experience with a lot of awesome companies, including part ot sales force, and you know, you cofounded the company. So you inherently have trust and people are going to trust your vision. You have a voice at the table and in all this I'm sure you've talked with people who've struggled to get going around some of these themes. What tips do you have to bring these into an organization and kind of start bringing them to life? Yeah, and it's really hard. It is extremely hard. I will not advise people to do it unless you are going to fully commit to it and commit to it to long Ferado feards of time. The part that you know, as you were asking that question, I was thinking about is is when I talk to and I'm having tons that it's funny. I'm having tones of done some conversation lately about this then I've ever been before. Tells us where we are of the time where everybody's trying to build a brand, and one of the most interesting things about building a brand is actually doing it to not build a brand. It sounds very paradoxical, but they just stay with be here for a second. So when I want to put stuff on Linkedin, and you know this, like there's probably like a two years ago, I said I'm going to post every day, I don't care how people like it that I'm just going to make it a happen. I just did that and con you to do that, and that has led to a lot of great things. One of the things that happen is that, as I didn't oppost me me once a month about my company, and I posed that with a lot of like pride, like Hey, because my company is doing it, I want to say something, but only once a month. Everything else, like ninety nine percent of my post or not about my company. It's about the person that we are potentially selling to. So all that's that to do is that it creates a grant for your organization the like. For example, how many people you know on Linkedin today that you don't know which company they work for? Chances are... don't. Let you if you know a person, you know which company they work for. So it's not hidden that. The U branding is not saying that the invisible, the unranding, means that you don't need you need to stop thinking of people as stupid people or dumb people. People know who you work for, people understand where you're coming from, people know what you meet together, what you're doing. But you they expect respect for their time and you start respecting their time, you start giving them value and every interaction you do you start depositing this this idea of constantly depositing into it. So the month and of the month or something, when you're trying to pull a buck out of it. People would love you for that. People want you to that. People were like, we're what's wrong with this person? Right, why is enough toss of you want that kind of feeling in people. And again it's but if you people do that and they lose on yes, so interesting. I had a really great guy named edbalt on the podcast and one of his two monitors for the year is that the personal brand is the new company brand. Then the company's brand is built of what I think about and how I feel about the people I'm interacting with that your company, and you know in the case that you were just offering there on Linkedin, and you're exactly right. It's this if I think you're a good person or an interesting person, or you're doing interesting work or you have an interesting perspective and I like to engage on your post and so you keep showing up in my feed every day, that I am going to know you and I'm going to feel better about your company. Has a consequence of it and that you know, instead of the company going out, and I think that's a nice little button on this list. If folks listening enjoyed this conversation, of course you're going to love episode forty two with today's guests and grumvagere. We titled that one five ways internal alignment can elevate your customer experience and you know, a lot of the themes that you heard today in the conversation are in that conversation, but it was a lot more practical. We were talking a little bit more about how you work and your day to day and the way teams are structured in the way that you interact with one another. So there're a lot of very practice coal operational tips in that one and then more recently on episode seventy four with Steph Caldwell, who's the senior customer success leader and community architect at narrative science. That one was called using tech to scale the human touch and build community. And interestingly about Steff I think you'd I think you'd find her to be an interesting person to her first for a into community was just building a community in Chicago, where she lives, of young professional women who were kind of hitting at not really a glass ceiling, but we're kind of hitting this this road block in their careers of like maybe not getting the promotion. So she just organized a whole bunch of people who had this problem. Yeah, and they got together and built a website and built a community, you know, did events until we couldn't do events anymore. And Anyway, sets episode Forty Two, is say groom, and Episode Seventy Four with with Steph called well at narrative science, and you can find that and all those episodes at Bombbcom podcast. I didn't do the homework of of reminding myself who you said last time I asked you these two questions, but I'm going to ask him to you again. Anyway, who would you like to think or mention as someone who's had a positive impact on your life or your career, and what company or brand would you shout out for the way they deliver for you as a customer? Great, great questions. Well, one being yesterday being the mother's Day. Like my wife and my mom, both of them had to mend this amount of them back on who I am and the shape of like everything, how I think about stuff. So love respect to them both more than anybody that I know. They have more influence on me than they know. They would you know they were not then say that, but that just true. It's both the strong, I mean incredibly strong women. In terms of brands, I feel like one brand that comes to me more than anything is charity water. Charity Water people have not heard about. It's...

...a nonprofit organization. They change the way they do business off nonprofit where a hundred percent of the money goes to a nonprofit organization. And as a result of them, you know, when Adim is Bebbug, we give all the proceeds of non to a nonprofit called new story charity, which is another organization very similar business model. A hundred percent money goes to helping companies, helping people build houses in areas where people have no ability to build a house. So so it's really interesting when I look at even when non profits are running as a business and creating value so greater than any one of us can create Anan just for profit world. I love the combination of that. So shout out to both nonpro both nonprofits, new story, charity and Cherry War. I love it. I really like this innovation that charity water brought to the whole thing that. You know, innovation isn't just I mean they're not solving a new problem. They're solving a sadly persistent problem, which is not enough people have access to clean water. It's actually shocked, being shocking, volume of fellow human beings on earth that do not have access to clean water. So the problem isn't new. The innovation is the way, as you already said, the way they run the organization and essentially run charity. So it's awesome and I really like what you did with that. Folks want to learn more about new story, of course you can visit their website and I'll link all that up at bombbcom slash podcast. We actually talked about it a little bit back on episode forty two as well. I forgot to ask you this, so I'm going to ask you one more question. Becoming intentional. In actually, your offer there about your wife and your mom reminded me of it, because I feel like it's it. What you're doing with becoming intentional and the becoming intentional Hashtag and just this this kind of philosophy really really blends personal professional together really nicely and it feels so true to who you are as a person. Just talk a little bit about what how that occurred to you and when you decided to kind of formalize that you're doing things around this becoming intentional. I feel like it's the seeds of a community. Yeah, it certainly is. Then we'll see where it goes. But I learned something, which is every day, but well, the one of the main things I've learned reason to do, was that being intentional is way more important than being brilliant. So I'll say that again, because it took me a while to do really receive in myself. So so for those who want of those who are a great people like you, might you need to listen again, because BNC get it. Being intentional is way more important than brilliant. Being Brilliant. What I mean by that is that, look, you may have the greatest, foolest idea in the world, and so many people have it every day. Like people have talked about having that. They have the idea of Huber, they had the idea of, like, you know, drones, they had the idea of all these rays crazy stuff right, but it doesn't really matter, because what matter, says, the few people who actually been intentionally enough, to focus enough to do that, and that's the difference between everybody else and that one percent. So I've just started being more intentional about how I'm leading my family, being part of my family, port of my team, out of my community, part of my company, and I'm just realizing that it's important to be intentional. It's important to take a pause every so often revaluate what's going on and rethink and re imagine, because you may have the best idea, best bet, you know, best thoughts around everything, but if you're not intentional, if you're not writing the thank you notes, if you're not bringing customer in the office so people can imagine, if you're not intentional about the things that actually do matter to you and the organization to grow or yourself to grow. You don't miss out on it and it's not worth the so good. As I said in the beginning, you're an awesome human being. I appreciate you spending this time with me and with folks who...

...are listening. I'm glad I asked that at the end, that it's like a feels like a great call to action, which is how you and flip my fund all. You know. What should we do about this next? So, for folks that want to follow up, they want more of your your teaching, more of your philosophy, they want to engage with you or any of the communities that you're involved in. Where would you send people? Linkedin? Okay, sangroom, Bager on Linkedin. You won't miss him and you'll be glad that you that you reached out and connected. Sang Room. Thank you so much. I hope you have an awesome rest of your week. Man, thank you so much, and thanks and rooting for listening. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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