The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

9. Why Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back w/ David Avrin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If you want to know why customers leave and you want to know how to win them back, have I got a podcast for you.

I learned so much from David Avrin, a customer experience & marketing keynote speaker, consultant and author, whose most recent book is Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back): (24 Reasons People are Leaving You for Competitors, and How to Win Them Back*).

Avrin helps companies become responsive to their customers and prospect’s needs.

Since the advent of the iPhone 11 years ago, everyone has gotten acclimated to instant gratification.

The problem today is that every failure in customer experience becomes magnified because every person you encounter is armed with a video camera on their phone.

Everyone is on camera. Everything is being recorded. Everything is being shared.

People feel it's not only the right, but it's their responsibility to go online and rant about any slight or infraction.

Unfortunately most companies haven’t adapted to this faster pace. Only 15% of companies have adopted an always-on business model to accommodate their always-connected customers.

Rightly or not, people expect an immediate response.

To learn more about how to get your customers back, click on the podcast link in the first comment below.

I tell audiences, I tell organizationsI work with. I said you have to do business with an expectation thatevery person you encounter is armed with a video camera, because they are,and it's all on their phone. So it's a scary time to be inbusiness. You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helpingtoday's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Getready to hear how sales, marketing and customers success. Experts surprise and delightand never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte.Hey, if you want to know why customers leave and you want toknow how to win them back, you are in the right place. Welcomeback to the customer experience podcast. My guest today is a customer experience expert. He's a customer experience in marketing, keynote speaker and consultant. He's theauthor of three books. It's not who you know, it's who knows you. Visibility, marketing and the new why customers leave and how to win themback. My favorite thing about this book so far, and we'll get toDavid in a minute, is that Jay bear of convincing convert in, theauthor of talk triggers, calls this book and he viscerating indictment of how poorlycustomers are often treated and the powerful recipe for doing the exact opposite. DavidAvern, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Asked it's great to be here myfriend. Yeah, I love the I love the eviscerating indictment. I'msure we're going to get into some of those things. But, David,I want to start where I always start, which is your definition or your thoughtsabout customer experience. What does it look like? What does it feellike? Those characteristics? Sure, and that's a great question because because Ithink it's sort of a new discipline, though I think some of the tenantsof it are fairly timeless. But so many people, I think, whoused to be sort of customer service people have morphed into customer experience. I'mactually one of the people that morphed from marketing to customer experience and sort ofthe genesis of it for me was the fact that I've been been teaching marketingfrom the stage, writing books consulting for twenty plus years and what I foundwas that I'm working with these organizations. We do a great job of positioningthem, or maybe repositioning them, of attracting customers and clients, and thenthey screw it up by pissing them off somehow. Right, you know,they've they're a wonderful product, great services, great people, and then they putthem on hold for forty five minutes where things that that will frustrate themand then they no longer recognize their greatness because they're distracted by something else.So, in my mind, customer experience is how do you as a customer, and I think our greatest role, even for those of us in business, our most predominant role is that of a consumer, right as we allare, is how do we experience doing business with you at every point ofcontact, way beyond customer service. I think we get that. It's notan important but I think it's the wellknown that the service with a smile andengage people and beat them to the greed...

...and all of those things. Ithink we get that. I think it requires ongoing reminders and training, butcustomer experience is very different. Is How do your customers literally physically virtually experiencedoing business with you at every point of contact, and what's interesting today isa failure at any of those points, are even falling short at any ofthose can be enough to drive people away and into the arms of competitors.And so what I do is I speak across the country and around the worldby twenty four countries in the last several years, working with the organizations,companies, associations and others to help them pull out a magnifying glass and lookmore carefully from the customers perspective, online, on their phone, facetoface, duringthe transaction, after the transaction, and saying how are people doing businesswith you and, more importantly, how do they want to do business withyou and how do they want to do business with you two years from now, and what are we doing to address all of that? That's awesome,really broad coverage there of all the themes around customer experience. Sure, agreat response and it's that every touch point piece. And you talked about thevarious yeah and ways we connect with people. Talk to me now about the relationshipbetween customer experience and visibility. Visibility is kind of a theme with yousure, ability, coachcom visibility international. What is this theme of Visibility Aboutfor you? Well, you know, it's interesting today and probably more thanever instree, is that everything that happens is is shared, you know,for anybody would and who? I ask audience, as I said, okay, who has teenagers at home right? They overshare everything. I mean thereis nothing that they don't take pictures of and sharing as a parent is prettyscary. Sometimes it's like, can you actually have a thought that you don'tshare with the world? Because the Internet is forever. And so, interms of visibility, it's the good, it's the bad and the ugly.YELP, trip advisor, rotten tomatoes, glass door, everything is shared.So organizations really have to pay attention to get a multibillion dollar company and somemore on sixteen year old on the front end who takes a hamburger bun andwipes it on the floor to get back at a customer and videotapes it and, you know, and and puts it on link chat or snap face oryou know. And my kids are funny to like, Oh my God,Dad, you don't get it. I said, oh no, I teachit, trust me, I do. So visibility, it can be intentionaland it can be inadvertent. I tell audiences, I tell organizations I workwith. I said you have to do business with an expectation that every personyou encounter is armed with a video camera, because they are, and it's allon their phone. So it's a scary time to be in business.It's a scary to be a parent, but the reality is your competitors aredoing with the same thing. Now I don't know how this is all goingto flesh out in the next several years. I mean there has to be someway for the pendulum to swing back,...

...but right now everybody's on camera,everything is being recorded, everything is being shared. will feel not it'snot only their right but it's their responsibility to go online and rant about anyperceived slight or infraction. Right, twenty years ago, people in business youknow not everybody's going to be happy. You do everything you can, youtry and make it right and at some point you just got to walk away. Right, somebody's just not going to be happy. Today you can't walkaway because they won't. And so so in my book why customers leave andhow to win the back, I detailed twenty four reasons that that people getfrustrated a companies and almost every case it's inadvertent on the part of the company. They're not intending to frustrate or annoy their custom they're just trying to beefficient. They're trying to be predictable in terms of their behavior. But whathappens in that is that there are scenarios that are outliers that maybe aren't partof their training, and how they respond to those is really important. That'sthe experience that the customers having. When there's a special request, the easiestanswer is always no, sorry, we don't do that. WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE? I mean that I give a quick scenario. So Young Woman's at arestaurant with her friends and there's a chicken sea or salad and she looks onthe men in their shrimp on some o things. She says, can Ican I get shrimp instead of chicken? They said, oh, sorry,we don't do substitution. Why? You know where they don't do substitutions?Because the cook doesn't want to. I don't care what the Cook wants todo. I look at this as if I'm the owner of that business.Give her what she wants, charge a couple extra books. She's fine.WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE? Not Giving your customers what they asked for and then theynever come back and they go online and they rant about how much you suck, and so I kind of detail those kinds of things that I think companiesdon't think about. The you know, negative replies are typically more common thanpositive ones, but you absolutely a scenario where you give this trimp, youdo it at equal price and that could maybe not just as likely, butit could likely become a positive or positive post or share. So the pictureyou paint is really intimidating. I thinking you might have used that word already. It might have seated. I should be. Yeah, because it's everytouch point and we're always on. It's funny. I came from a broadcasttelevision background and so, you know, I always had this idea that thesemissed opportunities are always happening right like if I don't have a new promo orthe right promo airing in the right spot like this, that it just comesand goes. But now it's everything, all the time. Everyone's always on. Let's get a little bit more into disappointment. I've always said one ofmy life philosophies is that disappointment is a function of expectations. Sure are disappointedwhen they expected something more or better or even just different. and part ofthe premise of your book, obviously, and you've already alluded to it alittle bit, is that consumers, in our expectations have changed. At ahigh lighter. What's changed? What kind...

...of timeline are we talking about here'stalk a little bit about consumer expectations so that we can maybe manage them ormeet them or exceed them differently. Absolutely this is honestly the heart of everythingI talked about and the reason why this is more important than has ever been. It's not just this urgency, because business is hardness competitive. It alwayshas been, but there is a significant difference the market places. Really occurredover the last eleven years or so, since the advent of the I phone, because every so available at the touch of our thumb, at the swipeof our finger, that we've become accustomed to getting what we want when wewant. And we were kids and you didn't know how to spell a word, you'd say, mom, how do you spell rather to it what wouldmom's get the dictionary right. We don't do that anymore. We don't haveto go to the library to look something up. We're expect everything now.So I saw an interesting statistic. It said only fifteen percent of companies haveadopted an always on business month to accommodate their always connected cut U stommers,the people who are up at two o'clock in the morning used to be theunemployed in the people sitting with a bag of cheetos, but now it's we'reglobal, we're worldwide. In my office we are incredibly responsive because I've gotclients in Singapore, in Dubai and Johannesburg and Sydney, and so there's anexpectation of immediate response. The other thing that that's interesting is that, likeI said, because everything is shared, it's different and our mindset has tochange because we grew up. Listen Ethan you. We did stuff right growingup. There is no record of it right. You know, everybody shouldhave the right to make poor choices as a team, as a young person. We've all done it. I'm talking inappropriate more than the illegal, buttoday there's a permanence two in fractions, and so today the world is different. It's not just the expectations in terms of immediacy and accommodation and all ofthat, but also in terms of the permanence of infractions and the permanence ofpeople's comments and reactions. And so it is a challenging time and business andthings are different. And so, okay, you know, I hear people lament. I work with clients. They I'm going to go okay, that'sthe way it is. So what are you going to do about it?And so the good news is those who are very cognizant. That's why Ithink podcast like this are very important to bring to light some of the newthinking around this and the challenges and help people recognize so that they can takeaction, because I still hear there's people with this old mindset and Ethan.I still hear organizational leaders see EELS and a's get in front of their companiesand they'll still say things like listen, folks, at the end of theday it's still about quality, and I could not disagree more. At thebeginning of the day, it's about quality. Quality is the entry fee. Youbetter be good at what you do.

That's not at the end of theday, it's about competitive Andagy at the end of the day it's aboutrecruitment and retention. is about being better than others who are good at whatyou do. So I think there's a real connection to marketing and I thinkwe can markt a superior customer experience. But I'll take it's not. It'snot wow moments. I mean it's great if you have them, but it'snot about somebody having a wow moment and you celebrate that for a year.It's about everybody getting what they want how they want it. To me,we can always accommodate everything, but we have to try. Yeah, thatcouple really great things there, in particular the permanence of infractions. I don'tknow if that's a great album title from a cool band or if it's agreat ebook that you should offer as as a underlying release. A really goodtweet Hashtag David Aver, and there you go. The permanence of infractions isawesome. And this this wow moments thing. Before I get onto the question Iintended to ask you talk a bit more about that. I think there'sa little bit of tension, especially in the CS world, customer success customersupport world in particular, about this balance between I think what you're advocating foris the single most important thing is the desired outcome, when a lot oftimes what gets the head line or gets the conversation or what we want topat ourself back for is the wow moment. Talk about the tension or or anyother aspect of desired outcome versus wow moment as the as a primary deliverable. Sure, but I think goes back to what you said before, whichis the managing expectations. Wow moments are great. I'm not as will moments. Will moments are great because they are shared probably more than others, becausethey are extraordinary. Right. It is is something where somebody weigh above andbeyond, but you don't build business as you as a momentary fleeting press aboutit's great, but it's an old boss of mine used to say, whenyou do things like that it's like it's like peeing in your pains. Itwill give you a really warm feeling for a moment, but it's not goingto do you much good in the long run. And so what I talkabout is making sure that, first of all, that we correct anything andeverything that might cause people distress or frustration or things like that. But beyondthat is galvanizing in policy here's who we are, this is how we dowhat we do and every point of contact. And so, you know, Ithink we spend so much time training our staff and our people on policyquoting and I think what we should really do is spend more time training themon decisionmaking. And so, instead of those situations where it's the easiest thingthat a little level of predictability comes from, just here's how we do it right. If we don't let them make decisions, then they're not going tomake a wrong decision. Right. I look at it from the perspective ofhiring. So company spends so much time recruiting and interviewing and evaluating prospects andgoing through the interview process and asking them questions to check their judgment and assoon as we hire them, we newter...

...them right now. Just do itthis way. And the reality is, I think sometimes the greatest gift thatcompanies have is there is there people right, they have different experiences and judgment andand you occasionally they make make a wrong decision, but give them,giving them the freedom to infuse a measure of humanity. Sometimes just do theright thing because it's the right thing to do. You may not even makemoney on it. I'll work with people will approach me sometimes about speaking abouta subject I don't speak about, and what I do is I make surethey find the exact right person that will do a killer job. I don'tspeak on your ship, I don't speak on time management. I do customerexperience and I do market but I will help them find the right person becauseit's the right thing to do. You can call it Karma, you cancall it kids met or whatever else. So I don't know if I'm answeringyour question, but I but I think the I think that the poll interms of of deliverables. I think that that comes about as a result ofhaving very pleased customers and clients. I think the wow moments are episodic,but it well designed, well executed, well reinf forced. Customer Experience Programis persistent, it is predictable, as opposed to something that is that isinstantaneous or episodic. Both can be valuable, but one is sustainable. That's great. Love it. I also love the call to to recruit and retainand train employees well, to empower them, to light them up on this iswho we are and this is how we do what we do and thenallow them that the space to make appropriate decisions consistent with the values, consistentwith the mission, consistent with how you do what you do, but withtheir own freedom to do the right things. I think companies, I think companieswould be stunned if they really took a step back and how often theysay no to their customers and prospects. And maybe not it's not even theword no. Maybe it's just oh, sorry, we can't allow that,or sorry, you bring that coke in the store. Really is is thatfor fifty five year old part sorry, I'm not going to get chocolate onyour clothes, but you're treating you know we're leaving storage in there, checkingour receipt. Did you really think I just stole something? Right? You'retalking about like every time I leave Costco, I wonder like you, just makingsure I don't have an eight inch TV in my cart. That's nothapping to see. It's like it's like trust them until they until they becomeuntrust where. They have an old chapter about that. To Stop Stop Treatingyour customers like like criminals. But we also say no. There's there's somereally interesting ways that that. I mean there's one policy, and I talkedabout this because this one makes me crazy. Then most people don't think about becauseI it's actually the cruelest policy. How many times do you see inthe window of a store restrooms for customers? Only overseas, the column toilets,Right Toilet's just for customers, are really somebody needs to use the restroom? I mean, my God, be a human being. Well, we'renot here. I don't want to take people take advantage, taking advantage ofthey have. They have to go to the bathroom. You know, Italk to audiences and you know and I...

...there's a lot of humor and it'svery entertaining when I speak, but I use it strategically to temper a prettytough message about what it takes to compete today. And I'll ask him,I say, how many of you show them by showing hands? How manyof you have ever bought something you would never you would never have never boughtbefore just so you could use the bathroom? Right? A CHAP stick, apack of Gum, right, a cup of coffee. Will guess what, Sparky, you just made a buck thirty five and I'll never come backagain. Be Your jerk you know. I mean, it's just at somepoint we're so worried that people are going to take advantage of and do thewrong thing that we punish everyone for what instensibly be the actions of one percentor two percent. And I get that companies have to protect themselves against lossand everything else, but I walk into some store, I was in abig box something in a city, and I won't, I won't name themspecifically, but they seem far more concerned about what somebody might feel then whatthey might sell. I'm going. I tried to go in the in thedress room. Sorry, you can't take more than three items, really,but I want to try. I on more than three items. Oh,when you can't bring shoes at all, I'm like, my God hood,do you really think I'm going to steal something? You know, and it'severything and and not to the way certain minorities are treated is so tragic andso cruel that this this suspicion which treat people like human beings. Do reasonablethings to you know, for lost prevention, but treat people like human beings.And once again, I go through so many of these things in thebooks and then in everything else, but I really see myself, and maybeit's self appointed Crusader on this, but I think companies, businesses can doso much better of making us feel respected. That certainly will foster loyalty. Yeah, the the call to treat people like people, I think, isI feel like it's been emerging well in general business culture over the past severalyears. Yeah, there's companies that get it. Yeah, I think it'sreally important and I and I love that. That's a theme you've already you've alreadyhit on that two or three times just in this conversation already. Togo on that just a little bit. It's a little bit selfish, butyou've served dozens and dozens of videos with bombomb and you are. Our premisehere is that you're better in person and that if you're just a little bitmore personal and human in some of the touches that you're making, you'll bemore successful. Just absolutely, just give me a minute or two on whyyou like video for communication and how it may be humanizes you with or howhas people feel like they know you before they ever meet you. Yeah,and listen, this is not this is not an endorsement, this is notI mean this is not a paid endorsement is not a commercial. I ama bomb bomb Evangela and I'm granted, can be almost any video. Ilike Bamba because of the analytics. Like it can track who opens it.But we have we kill it with bombomb because for us it is that littlebit that pushes it over the hump. They already we're already talking to engagingwith the perspective client. They're considering me to keynote their conference. But Ialso know that whoever else is a finalist...

...is likely very, very good atwhat they do. I have wonderful colleagues and connections who are very good atthis. So I know it's just a preference at that point. So wecan never allow everything to be equal. And so for US bombomb is ourcompetitive advantage because if I have an opportunity facetoface with the client that they've seena proposal, they've talked to my assistant, we've talked numbers. Well, nowthey get to hear from me here's what I know about your industry,here's what I'll deliver and when we create that, dude, it's a verysimple bombomb right. It's a three, two, one high, Jennifer,David Ever and customer experience. Mur and keen on speaker, I know you'vebeen talking to Tiffany here in my office about the possibility of me coming andpresenting for your conference coming up in Vegas in November. I tell you Ithink the fit is great, and then go on and talk about their industry. They hear me talking about the deliverables. Here's what I'll do, and thenI look at the camera and I say I will make you a herofor bringing me and I promise keep working with tiffany. Anybody wants to havea conversation right, because what you can't do an email as you can't haveinflection, you can't have enthusiasm. I mean the best you can do isput things in all caps or bold, but then it looks like your shoutthem. So for us it's very personal, it's very facetoface. They can seethe smile on my face, they can see the enthusiasm. Can talkabout them, the people who are as. We've talked to others and promoted thisand encourage them to do it. Sometimes they're very nervous and I saylisten. First of all, if you don't like it, delete it andstart over again. I do it. I do it all the time.But I say, how often are you nervous when the phone rings? Andthey go, what do you mean? It's when the phone rings, whenyou you have no idea who's they are, what you're going to say, butyou're not nervous. You just have a conversation. I say, thinkof that the same way when you do a bomb bomb of video email,that communication. Just talk to him, don't give him a speech, don'twrite a script, because it's it there. It is inauthentic. So there's myendorsement for bombomb because we use it, and I will tell you our conversionrate when we get to the point where my sistant says I need youto do a bombomb, have a quick conversation with them. You're upwards ofeighty percent conversion rate just when we use bomb and it's not about the vehicle, it's about using that vehicle well and to be very, very conversational.So us it's part of our experience. They love working with tiffany. She'sbrilliant, she's a dream, very efficient, but then they experience working with me, and so this for us, is a little bit of sampling right. This is like Costco and Sams Club on a Saturday you can feed afamily of twelve at Costco on a sad right. It's giving them a chanceto to try, before they buy, what it's like to do business withyou, before they do business with you. And so for bombing, for us, is they get a chance to would see what it's like to workwith me, to understand my perspective, my approach, my my deliverables beforethey make a decision. And so for us it has been remarkably successful,awesome. I again. I wasn't just...

...fishing for all I know you were, but I'm happy to do so. It's important for people to understand,as we're talking about treating people as humans and human connection, and you hita few really, really important key ideas. Not using a script. This isabout being who you are, being authentic. It's about differentiating yourself andyou are your own best differentiator, not only if you're David Averron and whatyou're selling is David at David avern and the David avern experience on the stageat your next event. Every single one of us is our own best differentiatorin the seat in was earned because of who we are, and our nextopportunity is going to be one because of who we are, whether you're directlyin sales or not directly in sales. I'll just let me throw. Letme throw one last thing before you move on, because I'm on a piggybackon that. The worst thing that can happen for any and we're all insales. We're all trying to in. For us, I even say inspeaking, speaking is not a business. Getting the GIG is the business.Right, speaking is the performance, this is the deliverabble. The risk isfor anybody and is having somebody else present your materials to the decisionmaker. Moresales is lost. Are Lost in that gap because nobody sells yourself better thanyou do. Nobody knows what you do. So if you present to somebody andthen find out they're not the decisionmaker and then they go, Oh yeah, I talk to David Everon you. Seemed really smart, enthusiastic. Hetalks about this and this, they just lost ninety five percent of what Ido. So the real value for us at the bombomb of the video communicationis that we're making our pitch for us and nobody, as you said,does it better than we can do ourselves. Yep, and you get past thegatekeeper and then the tracking an analytics close the loop. So you knowyou got there. So when you see your email got open fourteen times,then video got played eight times, you know you made it through just fine. But before I go to to a couple ways, I really love towrap these conversations. Eve run CEO Round Table groups. You've done it,did it for several years when you of course you consult companies all over theworld talk about that level of the organization. You know, at the very beginningof the station you referred to customer experience as a new discipline based ontimeless tenants. In terms of the new discipline part of it, where iscustomer experience in the Sea Suite these days like? How seriously is it beingtaken? Is it being actively developed? Manage structure like? What what arethe conversations happening in the sea suite around customer experience specifically this, this newdiscipline version of it, not just the timeless tenets of it. Sure,I think more and more, I think they're really really getting a first ofall, for those who are voracious learners within the C suite, they cannothelp but hear again and again again about about customer experience. Sometimes I thinkit is is overly analytical, that sometimes they're so hundred thousand feet that it'salmost too much. But the recognizing it. I think some of them are justbeing pulled along and recognizing this.

The significant differences between customer experience andcustomer service both important, but I think it's absolutely being recognized more and more. How they do it and actually putting personnel in place and in charge ofthe effort and coordinating with the marketing efforts, cording with their sales efforts and makingsure that it's an integrated program is it's young, but there are majororganizations who really really get this, who are acting as a model for others. You know, I think one of the thing that's interesting, even froma consumer perspective. Historically we have always business has always been sort of comparedagainst others in their space and and as a business owner you kind of hadto be better than than the middle point of other competitors or hopefully on thehigher end. Consumers today are comparing companies to everybody. Right what Lubert cantell me what my driver looks like, where they are and when they're goingto show up. Why can't you do that? Okay, right, right, right. Amazon can deliver in thirty minutes in some city whatever. Whycan't you? So that alone and the potential loss and the disruption, whichof course is profound, is making everybody take notice, and especially when they'resort of a measure of parity in terms of quality and commitment and carrying andtrust and all the stuff that everybody talks about. Everybody's good today. Imean, you wouldn't. If you aren't, you be outed pretty quickly, becausethe Internet outs under performers. So what they're realizing is their real opportunityfor differentiation is the experience, and so I work hard to make sure thatthey understand the experience isn't about sporadic wow moments, but it's about a consistentlypredictable, great, better than most experience, transaction, etcetera. Awesome. Asyou may know, as someone who's been connected with our team in ourcompany at for some time, core value number one for us as relationships,and so I always like to give you as we come to a close,I was like to give you the opportunity to think or mention someone who's hasa positive impact on your life or your career and a company that's doing customerexperience really, really well today. Sure you know, for there's so manypeople. I love that old and I think it's probably a poster, amotivational poster on the wall of a lot of organizations as well, and somethingthat says when I see a turtle on a fence post, I know thathe didn't get there by himself, right. And so for all of us who'vehad a measure of success, for me it's clents, but it's alsoit's also mentors and mentors who became friends and colleagues and then it almost likethe roles switch, because you become colleagues when you're young in the business,you're in your S, but when you're mature in your S, and I'mfifty five now, we're all kind of peers at that point. But butthere was a one of my best friends are going named Eric Chester, whospeaks on sort of the emerging workforce. He wrote so many great books.There's a great book call on fire at work and but Aaric Chester for mehas been my friend, my mentor. There's Times that I've helped him andhe's in the people are sort of with...

...you for decades and he's one ofthose guys. So Hey, I appreciate the opportunity to give is. Andin terms of companies that do this well, I'm trying to think of just Imean there's there's the classic ones that come to mind, the Zappos andwhoever else, the Southwest Airlines and whatever. But I think there's a couple ofthings that that I think typify them, and and you can almost find twoor three companies and almost any category. One is that they are remarkable inthe sense that they're worthy of being remarked about. Right there's something they'redoing this so interesting or different or better or faster or more facilitated or morepersonal humorous that it actually makes you want to talk about them to someone else. And so, for like Southwest Airlines and one of those, just becausethey have the funny, you know messages, whatever. No, my going togo on southwest airlines just because you know that that there's a good chancethat the flight attendant is going to do a funny safety announcement. No,but you remember more you're you're lefts likely to bitch about him because you knowtravel is so difficult and everything else but then there are the other ones whojust make it astonishingly easy to do business with them. And for me,the superstars in customer experience are the ones who make it astonishingly easy to dobusiness the ones. I mean. There's great companies that you literally cannot talkto a real person. If you want to, you go to their websiteand you can search for twenty minutes and you will not find a phone numberor an email address. And they intentionally decided as an organization, we willnot let our customers talk to us like literally, I want to slash mywrists under the table. And then they expect us to have loyalty and towant to do business with them, but they're designing their business to purposely bedifficult to do business with and it boggles my mind. So to answer questionterms of who does this right, anybody who is astonishingly easy to do businesswith and anybody who gives you something to talk about. We Love, wesay we if you want people to talk about, you give them something totalk about. Love it. And you also ran through. If anyone wantsto hit that thirty second back button or fifteen second or sixty second back button, you ran through a few characteristics to it doesn't always have to be onething right, you said, you know, humor is one way to do it, but there are several ways, several ways to do that. Thething I love about southwest personally is the transfarency concept. That yeah, again, it's not a surprise and delight, it's not a wow, it's justthis. I'm not going to nickel and dying. You even united, whoI'm very loyal to, and have the credit card and fly off and rightthey're starting to charge nine bucks for like the seats in the middle of economyinstead of putting in the bass like. So this idea that just buy yourticket, the cost is the cost, you can bring your bags on,we'll get you on the plane quickly. It's like that's this, that's thisdesired outcome delivered really easily. Hey, D even, it's been an absolutepleasure. I assume folks can go on to Amazon or anywhere else, bythe way, absolutely to pick up why customers leave and how to win themback. Where are some other ways people can connect with you? Sure mywebsite is visibility internationalcom. I'm actually remarkably...

...easy to get ahold of. Ialways tell people, unless I'm on a plane or on stage, I'm available. I've got staff, but I am I work, once again, becauseI'm in a competitive market place to be astonishingly easy to do business with.So if anybody wants to reach out, I respond personally as well. Idon't always have the time to schedule. My assistant schedules that, but mybooks are all online, they're all on audio book in my voice, they'reall on kindle and I'm an evangelist. So anybody WHO's looking for for connection, I'm happy to do so and I appreciate the opportunity to extol the virtuesof bombomb but also to engage in my crusade to help people and organizations treatpeople better and respectfully and more humanly. I have a leave you with this. My my life mission, my mantra is on the wall. I staringat it right now and I type it up and I just it says Iwant to spend my life doing things that matter with people who care, andthat's how I approach everything. It's a perfect conclusion. When you operate fromthat mindset, it's going to be really difficult to do customer experience poorly.David Avron and for anyone that that wants to go check them out, isjust David and then a vriend. David Averron. It's been an absolute pleasure. Love your philosophy you as well, my friend, and continued success toyou, and if I can ever be a value, let me know allright. Thank you, Buddy. You're listening to the customer experience podcast.No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're in trusting someof your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can dobetter. rehumanize the experience by getting face to face through simple personal videos.Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to thecustomer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe tothe show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so muchfor listening. Until next time,.

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