The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

9. Why Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back w/ David Avrin


If you want to know why customers leave and you want to know how to win them back, have I got a podcast for you.

I learned so much from David Avrin, a customer experience & marketing keynote speaker, consultant and author, whose most recent book is Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back): (24 Reasons People are Leaving You for Competitors, and How to Win Them Back*).

Avrin helps companies become responsive to their customers and prospect’s needs.

Since the advent of the iPhone 11 years ago, everyone has gotten acclimated to instant gratification.

The problem today is that every failure in customer experience becomes magnified because every person you encounter is armed with a video camera on their phone.

Everyone is on camera. Everything is being recorded. Everything is being shared.

People feel it's not only the right, but it's their responsibility to go online and rant about any slight or infraction.

Unfortunately most companies haven’t adapted to this faster pace. Only 15% of companies have adopted an always-on business model to accommodate their always-connected customers.

Rightly or not, people expect an immediate response.

To learn more about how to get your customers back, click on the podcast link in the first comment below.

I tell audiences, I tell organizations I work with. I said you have to do business with an expectation that every person you encounter is armed with a video camera, because they are, and it's all on their phone. So it's a scary time to be in business. You're listening to the customer experience podcast, a podcast dedicated to helping today's growing businesses restore a personal human touch throughout the customer life cycle. Get ready to hear how sales, marketing and customers success. Experts surprise and delight and never lose sign of their customers humanity. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey, if you want to know why customers leave and you want to know how to win them back, you are in the right place. Welcome back to the customer experience podcast. My guest today is a customer experience expert. He's a customer experience in marketing, keynote speaker and consultant. He's the author of three books. It's not who you know, it's who knows you. Visibility, marketing and the new why customers leave and how to win them back. My favorite thing about this book so far, and we'll get to David in a minute, is that Jay bear of convincing convert in, the author of talk triggers, calls this book and he viscerating indictment of how poorly customers are often treated and the powerful recipe for doing the exact opposite. David Avern, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Asked it's great to be here my friend. Yeah, I love the I love the eviscerating indictment. I'm sure we're going to get into some of those things. But, David, I want to start where I always start, which is your definition or your thoughts about customer experience. What does it look like? What does it feel like? Those characteristics? Sure, and that's a great question because because I think it's sort of a new discipline, though I think some of the tenants of it are fairly timeless. But so many people, I think, who used to be sort of customer service people have morphed into customer experience. I'm actually one of the people that morphed from marketing to customer experience and sort of the genesis of it for me was the fact that I've been been teaching marketing from the stage, writing books consulting for twenty plus years and what I found was that I'm working with these organizations. We do a great job of positioning them, or maybe repositioning them, of attracting customers and clients, and then they screw it up by pissing them off somehow. Right, you know, they've they're a wonderful product, great services, great people, and then they put them on hold for forty five minutes where things that that will frustrate them and then they no longer recognize their greatness because they're distracted by something else. So, in my mind, customer experience is how do you as a customer, and I think our greatest role, even for those of us in business, our most predominant role is that of a consumer, right as we all are, is how do we experience doing business with you at every point of contact, way beyond customer service. I think we get that. It's not an important but I think it's the wellknown that the service with a smile and engage people and beat them to the greed...

...and all of those things. I think we get that. I think it requires ongoing reminders and training, but customer experience is very different. Is How do your customers literally physically virtually experience doing business with you at every point of contact, and what's interesting today is a failure at any of those points, are even falling short at any of those can be enough to drive people away and into the arms of competitors. And so what I do is I speak across the country and around the world by twenty four countries in the last several years, working with the organizations, companies, associations and others to help them pull out a magnifying glass and look more carefully from the customers perspective, online, on their phone, facetoface, during the transaction, after the transaction, and saying how are people doing business with you and, more importantly, how do they want to do business with you and how do they want to do business with you two years from now, and what are we doing to address all of that? That's awesome, really broad coverage there of all the themes around customer experience. Sure, a great response and it's that every touch point piece. And you talked about the various yeah and ways we connect with people. Talk to me now about the relationship between customer experience and visibility. Visibility is kind of a theme with you sure, ability, coachcom visibility international. What is this theme of Visibility About for you? Well, you know, it's interesting today and probably more than ever instree, is that everything that happens is is shared, you know, for anybody would and who? I ask audience, as I said, okay, who has teenagers at home right? They overshare everything. I mean there is nothing that they don't take pictures of and sharing as a parent is pretty scary. Sometimes it's like, can you actually have a thought that you don't share with the world? Because the Internet is forever. And so, in terms of visibility, it's the good, it's the bad and the ugly. YELP, trip advisor, rotten tomatoes, glass door, everything is shared. So organizations really have to pay attention to get a multibillion dollar company and some more on sixteen year old on the front end who takes a hamburger bun and wipes it on the floor to get back at a customer and videotapes it and, you know, and and puts it on link chat or snap face or you know. And my kids are funny to like, Oh my God, Dad, you don't get it. I said, oh no, I teach it, trust me, I do. So visibility, it can be intentional and it can be inadvertent. I tell audiences, I tell organizations I work with. I said you have to do business with an expectation that every person you encounter is armed with a video camera, because they are, and it's all on their phone. So it's a scary time to be in business. It's a scary to be a parent, but the reality is your competitors are doing with the same thing. Now I don't know how this is all going to flesh out in the next several years. I mean there has to be some way for the pendulum to swing back,...

...but right now everybody's on camera, everything is being recorded, everything is being shared. will feel not it's not only their right but it's their responsibility to go online and rant about any perceived slight or infraction. Right, twenty years ago, people in business you know not everybody's going to be happy. You do everything you can, you try and make it right and at some point you just got to walk away. Right, somebody's just not going to be happy. Today you can't walk away because they won't. And so so in my book why customers leave and how to win the back, I detailed twenty four reasons that that people get frustrated a companies and almost every case it's inadvertent on the part of the company. They're not intending to frustrate or annoy their custom they're just trying to be efficient. They're trying to be predictable in terms of their behavior. But what happens in that is that there are scenarios that are outliers that maybe aren't part of their training, and how they respond to those is really important. That's the experience that the customers having. When there's a special request, the easiest answer is always no, sorry, we don't do that. WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE? I mean that I give a quick scenario. So Young Woman's at a restaurant with her friends and there's a chicken sea or salad and she looks on the men in their shrimp on some o things. She says, can I can I get shrimp instead of chicken? They said, oh, sorry, we don't do substitution. Why? You know where they don't do substitutions? Because the cook doesn't want to. I don't care what the Cook wants to do. I look at this as if I'm the owner of that business. Give her what she wants, charge a couple extra books. She's fine. WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE? Not Giving your customers what they asked for and then they never come back and they go online and they rant about how much you suck, and so I kind of detail those kinds of things that I think companies don't think about. The you know, negative replies are typically more common than positive ones, but you absolutely a scenario where you give this trimp, you do it at equal price and that could maybe not just as likely, but it could likely become a positive or positive post or share. So the picture you paint is really intimidating. I thinking you might have used that word already. It might have seated. I should be. Yeah, because it's every touch point and we're always on. It's funny. I came from a broadcast television background and so, you know, I always had this idea that these missed opportunities are always happening right like if I don't have a new promo or the right promo airing in the right spot like this, that it just comes and goes. But now it's everything, all the time. Everyone's always on. Let's get a little bit more into disappointment. I've always said one of my life philosophies is that disappointment is a function of expectations. Sure are disappointed when they expected something more or better or even just different. and part of the premise of your book, obviously, and you've already alluded to it a little bit, is that consumers, in our expectations have changed. At a high lighter. What's changed? What kind...

...of timeline are we talking about here's talk a little bit about consumer expectations so that we can maybe manage them or meet them or exceed them differently. Absolutely this is honestly the heart of everything I talked about and the reason why this is more important than has ever been. It's not just this urgency, because business is hardness competitive. It always has been, but there is a significant difference the market places. Really occurred over the last eleven years or so, since the advent of the I phone, because every so available at the touch of our thumb, at the swipe of our finger, that we've become accustomed to getting what we want when we want. And we were kids and you didn't know how to spell a word, you'd say, mom, how do you spell rather to it what would mom's get the dictionary right. We don't do that anymore. We don't have to go to the library to look something up. We're expect everything now. So I saw an interesting statistic. It said only fifteen percent of companies have adopted an always on business month to accommodate their always connected cut U stommers, the people who are up at two o'clock in the morning used to be the unemployed in the people sitting with a bag of cheetos, but now it's we're global, we're worldwide. In my office we are incredibly responsive because I've got clients in Singapore, in Dubai and Johannesburg and Sydney, and so there's an expectation of immediate response. The other thing that that's interesting is that, like I said, because everything is shared, it's different and our mindset has to change because we grew up. Listen Ethan you. We did stuff right growing up. There is no record of it right. You know, everybody should have the right to make poor choices as a team, as a young person. We've all done it. I'm talking inappropriate more than the illegal, but today there's a permanence two in fractions, and so today the world is different. It's not just the expectations in terms of immediacy and accommodation and all of that, but also in terms of the permanence of infractions and the permanence of people's comments and reactions. And so it is a challenging time and business and things are different. And so, okay, you know, I hear people lament. I work with clients. They I'm going to go okay, that's the way it is. So what are you going to do about it? And so the good news is those who are very cognizant. That's why I think podcast like this are very important to bring to light some of the new thinking around this and the challenges and help people recognize so that they can take action, because I still hear there's people with this old mindset and Ethan. I still hear organizational leaders see EELS and a's get in front of their companies and they'll still say things like listen, folks, at the end of the day it's still about quality, and I could not disagree more. At the beginning of the day, it's about quality. Quality is the entry fee. You better be good at what you do.

That's not at the end of the day, it's about competitive Andagy at the end of the day it's about recruitment and retention. is about being better than others who are good at what you do. So I think there's a real connection to marketing and I think we can markt a superior customer experience. But I'll take it's not. It's not wow moments. I mean it's great if you have them, but it's not about somebody having a wow moment and you celebrate that for a year. It's about everybody getting what they want how they want it. To me, we can always accommodate everything, but we have to try. Yeah, that couple really great things there, in particular the permanence of infractions. I don't know if that's a great album title from a cool band or if it's a great ebook that you should offer as as a underlying release. A really good tweet Hashtag David Aver, and there you go. The permanence of infractions is awesome. And this this wow moments thing. Before I get onto the question I intended to ask you talk a bit more about that. I think there's a little bit of tension, especially in the CS world, customer success customer support world in particular, about this balance between I think what you're advocating for is the single most important thing is the desired outcome, when a lot of times what gets the head line or gets the conversation or what we want to pat ourself back for is the wow moment. Talk about the tension or or any other aspect of desired outcome versus wow moment as the as a primary deliverable. Sure, but I think goes back to what you said before, which is the managing expectations. Wow moments are great. I'm not as will moments. Will moments are great because they are shared probably more than others, because they are extraordinary. Right. It is is something where somebody weigh above and beyond, but you don't build business as you as a momentary fleeting press about it's great, but it's an old boss of mine used to say, when you do things like that it's like it's like peeing in your pains. It will give you a really warm feeling for a moment, but it's not going to do you much good in the long run. And so what I talk about is making sure that, first of all, that we correct anything and everything that might cause people distress or frustration or things like that. But beyond that is galvanizing in policy here's who we are, this is how we do what we do and every point of contact. And so, you know, I think we spend so much time training our staff and our people on policy quoting and I think what we should really do is spend more time training them on decisionmaking. And so, instead of those situations where it's the easiest thing that a little level of predictability comes from, just here's how we do it right. If we don't let them make decisions, then they're not going to make a wrong decision. Right. I look at it from the perspective of hiring. So company spends so much time recruiting and interviewing and evaluating prospects and going through the interview process and asking them questions to check their judgment and as soon as we hire them, we newter...

...them right now. Just do it this way. And the reality is, I think sometimes the greatest gift that companies have is there is there people right, they have different experiences and judgment and and you occasionally they make make a wrong decision, but give them, giving them the freedom to infuse a measure of humanity. Sometimes just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. You may not even make money on it. I'll work with people will approach me sometimes about speaking about a subject I don't speak about, and what I do is I make sure they find the exact right person that will do a killer job. I don't speak on your ship, I don't speak on time management. I do customer experience and I do market but I will help them find the right person because it's the right thing to do. You can call it Karma, you can call it kids met or whatever else. So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I but I think the I think that the poll in terms of of deliverables. I think that that comes about as a result of having very pleased customers and clients. I think the wow moments are episodic, but it well designed, well executed, well reinf forced. Customer Experience Program is persistent, it is predictable, as opposed to something that is that is instantaneous or episodic. Both can be valuable, but one is sustainable. That's great. Love it. I also love the call to to recruit and retain and train employees well, to empower them, to light them up on this is who we are and this is how we do what we do and then allow them that the space to make appropriate decisions consistent with the values, consistent with the mission, consistent with how you do what you do, but with their own freedom to do the right things. I think companies, I think companies would be stunned if they really took a step back and how often they say no to their customers and prospects. And maybe not it's not even the word no. Maybe it's just oh, sorry, we can't allow that, or sorry, you bring that coke in the store. Really is is that for fifty five year old part sorry, I'm not going to get chocolate on your clothes, but you're treating you know we're leaving storage in there, checking our receipt. Did you really think I just stole something? Right? You're talking about like every time I leave Costco, I wonder like you, just making sure I don't have an eight inch TV in my cart. That's not happing to see. It's like it's like trust them until they until they become untrust where. They have an old chapter about that. To Stop Stop Treating your customers like like criminals. But we also say no. There's there's some really interesting ways that that. I mean there's one policy, and I talked about this because this one makes me crazy. Then most people don't think about because I it's actually the cruelest policy. How many times do you see in the window of a store restrooms for customers? Only overseas, the column toilets, Right Toilet's just for customers, are really somebody needs to use the restroom? I mean, my God, be a human being. Well, we're not here. I don't want to take people take advantage, taking advantage of they have. They have to go to the bathroom. You know, I talk to audiences and you know and I...

...there's a lot of humor and it's very entertaining when I speak, but I use it strategically to temper a pretty tough message about what it takes to compete today. And I'll ask him, I say, how many of you show them by showing hands? How many of you have ever bought something you would never you would never have never bought before just so you could use the bathroom? Right? A CHAP stick, a pack of Gum, right, a cup of coffee. Will guess what, Sparky, you just made a buck thirty five and I'll never come back again. Be Your jerk you know. I mean, it's just at some point we're so worried that people are going to take advantage of and do the wrong thing that we punish everyone for what instensibly be the actions of one percent or two percent. And I get that companies have to protect themselves against loss and everything else, but I walk into some store, I was in a big box something in a city, and I won't, I won't name them specifically, but they seem far more concerned about what somebody might feel then what they might sell. I'm going. I tried to go in the in the dress room. Sorry, you can't take more than three items, really, but I want to try. I on more than three items. Oh, when you can't bring shoes at all, I'm like, my God hood, do you really think I'm going to steal something? You know, and it's everything and and not to the way certain minorities are treated is so tragic and so cruel that this this suspicion which treat people like human beings. Do reasonable things to you know, for lost prevention, but treat people like human beings. And once again, I go through so many of these things in the books and then in everything else, but I really see myself, and maybe it's self appointed Crusader on this, but I think companies, businesses can do so much better of making us feel respected. That certainly will foster loyalty. Yeah, the the call to treat people like people, I think, is I feel like it's been emerging well in general business culture over the past several years. Yeah, there's companies that get it. Yeah, I think it's really important and I and I love that. That's a theme you've already you've already hit on that two or three times just in this conversation already. To go on that just a little bit. It's a little bit selfish, but you've served dozens and dozens of videos with bombomb and you are. Our premise here is that you're better in person and that if you're just a little bit more personal and human in some of the touches that you're making, you'll be more successful. Just absolutely, just give me a minute or two on why you like video for communication and how it may be humanizes you with or how has people feel like they know you before they ever meet you. Yeah, and listen, this is not this is not an endorsement, this is not I mean this is not a paid endorsement is not a commercial. I am a bomb bomb Evangela and I'm granted, can be almost any video. I like Bamba because of the analytics. Like it can track who opens it. But we have we kill it with bombomb because for us it is that little bit that pushes it over the hump. They already we're already talking to engaging with the perspective client. They're considering me to keynote their conference. But I also know that whoever else is a finalist... likely very, very good at what they do. I have wonderful colleagues and connections who are very good at this. So I know it's just a preference at that point. So we can never allow everything to be equal. And so for US bombomb is our competitive advantage because if I have an opportunity facetoface with the client that they've seen a proposal, they've talked to my assistant, we've talked numbers. Well, now they get to hear from me here's what I know about your industry, here's what I'll deliver and when we create that, dude, it's a very simple bombomb right. It's a three, two, one high, Jennifer, David Ever and customer experience. Mur and keen on speaker, I know you've been talking to Tiffany here in my office about the possibility of me coming and presenting for your conference coming up in Vegas in November. I tell you I think the fit is great, and then go on and talk about their industry. They hear me talking about the deliverables. Here's what I'll do, and then I look at the camera and I say I will make you a hero for bringing me and I promise keep working with tiffany. Anybody wants to have a conversation right, because what you can't do an email as you can't have inflection, you can't have enthusiasm. I mean the best you can do is put things in all caps or bold, but then it looks like your shout them. So for us it's very personal, it's very facetoface. They can see the smile on my face, they can see the enthusiasm. Can talk about them, the people who are as. We've talked to others and promoted this and encourage them to do it. Sometimes they're very nervous and I say listen. First of all, if you don't like it, delete it and start over again. I do it. I do it all the time. But I say, how often are you nervous when the phone rings? And they go, what do you mean? It's when the phone rings, when you you have no idea who's they are, what you're going to say, but you're not nervous. You just have a conversation. I say, think of that the same way when you do a bomb bomb of video email, that communication. Just talk to him, don't give him a speech, don't write a script, because it's it there. It is inauthentic. So there's my endorsement for bombomb because we use it, and I will tell you our conversion rate when we get to the point where my sistant says I need you to do a bombomb, have a quick conversation with them. You're upwards of eighty percent conversion rate just when we use bomb and it's not about the vehicle, it's about using that vehicle well and to be very, very conversational. So us it's part of our experience. They love working with tiffany. She's brilliant, she's a dream, very efficient, but then they experience working with me, and so this for us, is a little bit of sampling right. This is like Costco and Sams Club on a Saturday you can feed a family of twelve at Costco on a sad right. It's giving them a chance to to try, before they buy, what it's like to do business with you, before they do business with you. And so for bombing, for us, is they get a chance to would see what it's like to work with me, to understand my perspective, my approach, my my deliverables before they make a decision. And so for us it has been remarkably successful, awesome. I again. I wasn't just... for all I know you were, but I'm happy to do so. It's important for people to understand, as we're talking about treating people as humans and human connection, and you hit a few really, really important key ideas. Not using a script. This is about being who you are, being authentic. It's about differentiating yourself and you are your own best differentiator, not only if you're David Averron and what you're selling is David at David avern and the David avern experience on the stage at your next event. Every single one of us is our own best differentiator in the seat in was earned because of who we are, and our next opportunity is going to be one because of who we are, whether you're directly in sales or not directly in sales. I'll just let me throw. Let me throw one last thing before you move on, because I'm on a piggyback on that. The worst thing that can happen for any and we're all in sales. We're all trying to in. For us, I even say in speaking, speaking is not a business. Getting the GIG is the business. Right, speaking is the performance, this is the deliverabble. The risk is for anybody and is having somebody else present your materials to the decisionmaker. More sales is lost. Are Lost in that gap because nobody sells yourself better than you do. Nobody knows what you do. So if you present to somebody and then find out they're not the decisionmaker and then they go, Oh yeah, I talk to David Everon you. Seemed really smart, enthusiastic. He talks about this and this, they just lost ninety five percent of what I do. So the real value for us at the bombomb of the video communication is that we're making our pitch for us and nobody, as you said, does it better than we can do ourselves. Yep, and you get past the gatekeeper and then the tracking an analytics close the loop. So you know you got there. So when you see your email got open fourteen times, then video got played eight times, you know you made it through just fine. But before I go to to a couple ways, I really love to wrap these conversations. Eve run CEO Round Table groups. You've done it, did it for several years when you of course you consult companies all over the world talk about that level of the organization. You know, at the very beginning of the station you referred to customer experience as a new discipline based on timeless tenants. In terms of the new discipline part of it, where is customer experience in the Sea Suite these days like? How seriously is it being taken? Is it being actively developed? Manage structure like? What what are the conversations happening in the sea suite around customer experience specifically this, this new discipline version of it, not just the timeless tenets of it. Sure, I think more and more, I think they're really really getting a first of all, for those who are voracious learners within the C suite, they cannot help but hear again and again again about about customer experience. Sometimes I think it is is overly analytical, that sometimes they're so hundred thousand feet that it's almost too much. But the recognizing it. I think some of them are just being pulled along and recognizing this.

The significant differences between customer experience and customer service both important, but I think it's absolutely being recognized more and more. How they do it and actually putting personnel in place and in charge of the effort and coordinating with the marketing efforts, cording with their sales efforts and making sure that it's an integrated program is it's young, but there are major organizations who really really get this, who are acting as a model for others. You know, I think one of the thing that's interesting, even from a consumer perspective. Historically we have always business has always been sort of compared against others in their space and and as a business owner you kind of had to be better than than the middle point of other competitors or hopefully on the higher end. Consumers today are comparing companies to everybody. Right what Lubert can tell me what my driver looks like, where they are and when they're going to show up. Why can't you do that? Okay, right, right, right. Amazon can deliver in thirty minutes in some city whatever. Why can't you? So that alone and the potential loss and the disruption, which of course is profound, is making everybody take notice, and especially when they're sort of a measure of parity in terms of quality and commitment and carrying and trust and all the stuff that everybody talks about. Everybody's good today. I mean, you wouldn't. If you aren't, you be outed pretty quickly, because the Internet outs under performers. So what they're realizing is their real opportunity for differentiation is the experience, and so I work hard to make sure that they understand the experience isn't about sporadic wow moments, but it's about a consistently predictable, great, better than most experience, transaction, etcetera. Awesome. As you may know, as someone who's been connected with our team in our company at for some time, core value number one for us as relationships, and so I always like to give you as we come to a close, I was like to give you the opportunity to think or mention someone who's has a positive impact on your life or your career and a company that's doing customer experience really, really well today. Sure you know, for there's so many people. I love that old and I think it's probably a poster, a motivational poster on the wall of a lot of organizations as well, and something that says when I see a turtle on a fence post, I know that he didn't get there by himself, right. And so for all of us who've had a measure of success, for me it's clents, but it's also it's also mentors and mentors who became friends and colleagues and then it almost like the roles switch, because you become colleagues when you're young in the business, you're in your S, but when you're mature in your S, and I'm fifty five now, we're all kind of peers at that point. But but there was a one of my best friends are going named Eric Chester, who speaks on sort of the emerging workforce. He wrote so many great books. There's a great book call on fire at work and but Aaric Chester for me has been my friend, my mentor. There's Times that I've helped him and he's in the people are sort of with... for decades and he's one of those guys. So Hey, I appreciate the opportunity to give is. And in terms of companies that do this well, I'm trying to think of just I mean there's there's the classic ones that come to mind, the Zappos and whoever else, the Southwest Airlines and whatever. But I think there's a couple of things that that I think typify them, and and you can almost find two or three companies and almost any category. One is that they are remarkable in the sense that they're worthy of being remarked about. Right there's something they're doing this so interesting or different or better or faster or more facilitated or more personal humorous that it actually makes you want to talk about them to someone else. And so, for like Southwest Airlines and one of those, just because they have the funny, you know messages, whatever. No, my going to go on southwest airlines just because you know that that there's a good chance that the flight attendant is going to do a funny safety announcement. No, but you remember more you're you're lefts likely to bitch about him because you know travel is so difficult and everything else but then there are the other ones who just make it astonishingly easy to do business with them. And for me, the superstars in customer experience are the ones who make it astonishingly easy to do business the ones. I mean. There's great companies that you literally cannot talk to a real person. If you want to, you go to their website and you can search for twenty minutes and you will not find a phone number or an email address. And they intentionally decided as an organization, we will not let our customers talk to us like literally, I want to slash my wrists under the table. And then they expect us to have loyalty and to want to do business with them, but they're designing their business to purposely be difficult to do business with and it boggles my mind. So to answer question terms of who does this right, anybody who is astonishingly easy to do business with and anybody who gives you something to talk about. We Love, we say we if you want people to talk about, you give them something to talk about. Love it. And you also ran through. If anyone wants to hit that thirty second back button or fifteen second or sixty second back button, you ran through a few characteristics to it doesn't always have to be one thing right, you said, you know, humor is one way to do it, but there are several ways, several ways to do that. The thing I love about southwest personally is the transfarency concept. That yeah, again, it's not a surprise and delight, it's not a wow, it's just this. I'm not going to nickel and dying. You even united, who I'm very loyal to, and have the credit card and fly off and right they're starting to charge nine bucks for like the seats in the middle of economy instead of putting in the bass like. So this idea that just buy your ticket, the cost is the cost, you can bring your bags on, we'll get you on the plane quickly. It's like that's this, that's this desired outcome delivered really easily. Hey, D even, it's been an absolute pleasure. I assume folks can go on to Amazon or anywhere else, by the way, absolutely to pick up why customers leave and how to win them back. Where are some other ways people can connect with you? Sure my website is visibility internationalcom. I'm actually remarkably...

...easy to get ahold of. I always tell people, unless I'm on a plane or on stage, I'm available. I've got staff, but I am I work, once again, because I'm in a competitive market place to be astonishingly easy to do business with. So if anybody wants to reach out, I respond personally as well. I don't always have the time to schedule. My assistant schedules that, but my books are all online, they're all on audio book in my voice, they're all on kindle and I'm an evangelist. So anybody WHO's looking for for connection, I'm happy to do so and I appreciate the opportunity to extol the virtues of bombomb but also to engage in my crusade to help people and organizations treat people better and respectfully and more humanly. I have a leave you with this. My my life mission, my mantra is on the wall. I staring at it right now and I type it up and I just it says I want to spend my life doing things that matter with people who care, and that's how I approach everything. It's a perfect conclusion. When you operate from that mindset, it's going to be really difficult to do customer experience poorly. David Avron and for anyone that that wants to go check them out, is just David and then a vriend. David Averron. It's been an absolute pleasure. Love your philosophy you as well, my friend, and continued success to you, and if I can ever be a value, let me know all right. Thank you, Buddy. You're listening to the customer experience podcast. No matter your role in delivering value and serving customers, you're in trusting some of your most important and valuable messages to faceless digital communication. You can do better. rehumanize the experience by getting face to face through simple personal videos. Learn more and get started free at bomb bombcom. You've been listening to the customer experience podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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