The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 months ago

221. Creating Customer Impact in Moments That Matter w/ Jacco van der Kooij


Merely getting to the sale and figuring out later how to deliver what you sold does not work in a recurring revenue business. Actually, it’s customer success that makes the money now, because they create the experiences for customers around moments that matter. 

Which moments matter most? 

In this episode of our Human-Centered Communication expert series (which originally aired on September 14, 2021), Steve Pacinelli and I interview Jacco van der Kooij, Founder of Winning by Design, about building a customer impact journey around moments that matter. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • Why sales knowledge comes with great responsibility
  • How recurring revenue models shift customer experience to customer success
  • What the Bow Tie Funnel is and how it affects customer impact
  • What the customer impact journey and counter impacts are
  • How priority has replaced other buying determinants 

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The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. If you missed the past few episodes here on the customer experience podcast a, you should go back and check them out, but be not until you've heard this conversation and see you may have missed the fact that I'm out right now thanks to bomb bomb's Sabbatical program so we've brought back some of the most popular episodes from our human centered communications series which we released about a year ago. In that series I had a co host, Steve Passanelli. Steve is my longtime friend, team member, our CMO here at Bom bomb and my co author on two books Rehumanize Your Business and, more recently, human centered communication. So in this series we brought in some of the experts featured in that book. Here you're gonna meet one of our favorite people, Jacko Vander Koy. He's the founder of winning by design, he's featured in chapter three of Human Centered Communication, a chapter we titled a More Human Funnel. Jacko is a sales engineer and revenue architect, and he's also an amazing human being. In this conversation you'll hear why sales knowledge comes with great responsibility, how recurring revenue models shift customer experience to customer success, what the bow tie funnel is and how it affects customer impact, how priority has replaced other buying factors and why we must consider the counter impacts to our sales and marketing activities. And now, in the final episode in this series, here's me, Steve and Jacko Vander Koi. Oh that's another good one, Ethan. Today we have the founder of winning by design, a firm that designs, builds and scales organizations. They actually helped design, build and scale our organization here at Bom Bomb Uh. We have Jacko Vander Koi. He's from a small town in the Netherlands. He has a farming background, and what's cool about that as he brings his morals and his values from farming. And if you enjoy helping people, if you enjoy being true to your word, if you enjoy keeping an upstanding reputation in your business interactions while making more revenue than you're gonna love this episode today with Jocko. Jocko, welcome to the show. Oh my gosh, I have only one thing to say to that. Let's bring it on a sorry, uh, did I catch you off your attention span? This is good, this is perfect. Yes, uh. And if you Um, if you're not watching the winning by design Youtube Channel, you need to check it out. Jacko brings so much awesome energy and information. He has his own DJ. He Dj is really his own party sometimes, but you're always invited at the winning by design Youtube Channel. It's awesome and we've learned a ton from it. UH, Jacko, first question for you, and it's the same one we ask everybody when I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? That's right. All the time. It is tricky. It's tricky. That one is tricky. So okay. So customer experience. Um, I would like you to think of it as if you are being a person living and having a disease that you may not know about, that you don't are aware of, that could potentially be terminal, and visiting a doctor when you want when you talk to sales professional,...

I want you to have the feeling that a patient with that kind of symptoms and situation would feel like when they talk to a doctor. The person on the other side, in the doctor, has more knowledge. The person in the side of a sales, marketing, customer success relationship is the person that you are, whereas marketing, sales and customer says, you have all the knowledge, you have all the insight, you have hundreds, thousands whatever of customers, and so with that knowledge comes great responsibility and if you choose to use that to abuse somebody into the wrong kind of discount or this or that, that would make me feel very disappointed. If you would be a certified sales winning by design wrap that that still exhibits that behavior. Uh, in your view, and I think I know what the answer is just based on what I know of you, but I'm gonna ask anyway, just to walk it out a little bit. In your opinion, obviously you're paying attention to the space a lot, a lot of people are talking about customer experience. A lot more there even assigning roles, titles, maybe even teams that have customer experience labels on them. In your view or your opinion or experience? Is Customer experience better as a role, team title, or is it better it's kind of a broader culture or ethos within the organization that informs everyone's work? Okay, so the fundamental reason, Um, by that question, you know, like what? Yeah, the thing behind is I want to avoid using those expensive words as I'm uh, sometimes you've caught it. Okay, look, we have for decades used the fall probably for over a hundred years or something like that, use the funnel as a reflection of the way on how we look business, look at business, and so in that is now ingrained today a culture that looks at the bottom of that funnel as the outcome of success. What we, you know, see is a maniacal focus on winning more deals, this maniacal focus. Some people say they're not or something. You know, like they said that. You know, like if they're trying to avoid it. Um, in the end, if you are growing your business and your first instinct is to hire more people, then you essentially have a derivative that the funnel says twice as much as the top goes twice as much at the bottom. And there afar. If I want twice as much at the bottom. I'M gonna need more people, Blah, blah, blah. And so you have that focus in that folks in that funnel. There is no point in that funnel. That reflects what happens after the seal. And, as a result, because it's so absent from our vocabulary and none of our from our visualizations, what happens after we determine all its customer success. It's as if like look, once you sell the customer, then we later on, we'll figure out how we get you to deliver what you actually bought. That historically worked very well in a one off business. That does not work in a recurring revenue business because if you sold them the thing and you're not going to deliver that, that is gonna Churn. And if it's gonna Churn before you are making a profit, which as across the Fort The most successful Saas Company stakes on average twenty one months, it is likely that I will turn at least after a few months, not after a year, you are going to make a loss. In other words, the more deals you win, the more money you lose. So now how do we what is customer success? Is the mantra. Is the thing. The problem. W We name it is set to affirm that mindset off and what we like to see, and you know, like what we have recently wrote about, is like, what do we think of that function as a profit center? If we think of it like that's actually the cash register, and we start thinking about the business differently. Historically, and you know, like, for those of you who have an opportunity to look it up on Youtube, I created, and not to laugh about, but I created a presentation that says Um, the art of making love, and in the presentation I'm trying to explain that historically, what we did is we made sure that sill has...

...won the money and then customer success make make the customers love us. What if that has flipped? What if it is the role of sales today to make customers love us because we can help them with the impact, but it's actually a customer success who makes the money. Now this is what I call sales is the art of making love. How can you get your customers, you know, to love you? And obviously that puts a customer success in a total different perspective. So in the end, what we call it, what we name it, what the experience is customer success is a profit center. Mathematically, that is what it is, and so whatever we call it, I leave that up to the powers to be in the companies out there that are setting the stage for that. How does a company, a small company, a new company or even an established company, decide where the impact is along the bow tie funnel and where where they can help uh, their future customers and their current customers the most? Is there a process to that? There's a process, but let's up, you know, like let's not forget, you know, like the simple you know, often the process. A process is great to automate something that you know how it works. Right you say, Oh, I know how it proved to work now and then let's procesises, let's lower the cost, that's create the efficiency and stuff like that. Your question, Steve, is, however, the absolute right question. How do I, how do a small, simple business, implement this? And this is a concept what we call moments that matter, and you know, like it comes from that when you run a business, there's a few moments that really, really matter to a customer and I'll give you examples, an emotional example, but trust that the audience can can deal with me as I'm often an emotional person, reasonably, you know, like a few years ago, two years ago, actually two and a half years ago, my mom passed away and I needed a flight. Now I go to Delta and Delta says and I said, like what the conditions were of my flight, and they got an absolutely no problem. We have a grievance policy here, right, and so brievement flight, I think it's called. This allows you to not have to pay premium prices on a flight that you need to take this after noon. Perfect, right, you get premium seeding Um. It was, you know, like can you get through this on the way? That was a moment that mattered. Like Delta gave me an incredible moment at the time that it matters. United has done the past the same thing, but these are like, you know, my as my brother when at that time passed away, but they did the same thing. Like these are like very emotional moments. That's a moment that matters in your business. In most situations there are always moments that matter if you are able to find those moments where your customer engages with you personally. The return of a product, for example, is that one? Or the loss of a password on a Saturday night when you're trying to log into your apple. Blah, blah, Blah Blah. Right, all that is like. If you make those moments count the most and those moments where you design a good customer experience around, then if you design a few of those, with rising tides, all both lift. If you design a few of those, then the rest will start to fill in your your people will start to fill in the gaps and say like Hey, let's do the same thing in another moment as well. Yeah, I mean, how how are you? So I love it. It make it makes perfect sense. We've actually it's been kind of a background theme through several episodes on this show, is identifying those moments that matter, because when you can do those right, it buys you grace and patience through other kind of small failures that don't quite matter as much to the customer. Um. How do you or your team advise people, you know, when you identify these moments? I think so often we come at them thinking about ourselves and what we think matters. How do you encourage people to stay focused on the customer in identifying and designing around these moments and then perhaps even in measuring some level of success, like, yes, we have that moment kind of squared away. We're doing a good job here. Let's start doing some more. Well, first of all, that moment takes place all across the journey, right and in the journey we you know, when I said earlier, we're looking at it not from a from a follow but from a bow die perspective, which is a silted fallow flip, and so we all full journey,...

...full customer journey. Um. Second is we look at it from an operating model. Now I explain what the operating model is so that that when I in the second talk about how to do that moment, it puts put in a context historically. When, and I asked Steve and then Ethan the question. First, Steve, if I think of the top of the funnel, who's responsible for the top of the funnel, marketing? And if I think of the bottom of the funnel, you know who's responsible for the bottom of the funnel, sales. Now, what if, and as you know, in your own organizations you've you've done this yourself, what if actually it is not just marketing at the top of the funnel and this is not just sales at the bottom. What if they're intertwined? What if all these roles are constantly involved? It's just like at different Vari you know, variants of participation or a different stages or different actions. No, what we what I could easily convince you with, or what I could convince the listener to this podcast, eisier on, is that, hey, marketing and sales are actually intertwined. So I need as much sales help to tell marketing what to market as I need marketing help to help sale provide, sales provide with marketing materials, use cases and whatnot. So this would be very easy. Now I add customer success to that journey. Let's say like Hey, what if customer success is not something that takes place after sales has committed, gained commitment from a client, and notice I use the word commitment and not close after mutual commitment has been achieved? How can customer success help marketing and be intertwined with sales? This is one of those examples that you point out. Letting to have the customer come back to us and share with us how they experienced it is important. It took too long, it was too too far, and so on and so forth, and you know, too many clicks. You know, the only reason why I stuck with you because your salesperson had such a great attitude. But I have to tell your response rate was extremely low. So apparently response rate is very important then, by the way, what we can point out today there are two things that customers are extremely responsive to, responsiveness in time and kindness. These two things are responsive to. So if I submit a trial and I gotta way the day for an email to be sent to me to sign up for a trial, nobody wants that. If I hit trial, I want to check my inbox twice, hit refresh, refresh, and it better be there right like, otherwise I have a bad experience. So I'm very sensitive to time nature right now. If, for those of you we think you know, like, well, it's not that fast, folks, I don't know about you, but when I order something before nine o'clock at Amazon and if it doesn't deliver by three o'clock at night, I go like, what's wrong with this company? Like, what do you mean? You you can't ship that that niche product to me, even if you are like that's how sensitive to time we have become. And so, but the same thing is kindness. Human beings do not remember how it happened, why it happened, what happened. They remember mostly how the other person made you feel when it happened. Yeah, it's so easy to overlook that actually kind of tease up a little bit um where we want to go next, which is, you know, we've been talking about impacts, but in our interview for the book we talked a bit about counter impacts as well, and I think because kindness is one of those things that different, that's difficult to measure or quantify. I mean you can kind of feel it when you're reading qualitative feedback. I think a lot of people overlook it, just like people tend to overlook the counter impacts of their action. Defined for folks who are listening, uh counter impacts and then maybe identify some of the actions or systems or roles that you've observed tend to produce some of the negative counter impacts that that we oftentimes sweep under the rug or overlook in favor of the Uh, you know, the numbers that we do put up on the scoreboard. I'M gonna use cold calling. I am not against cold calling. I am very much in favor of cold calling when that is the preferred channel that the customer receives to communicate with. And so, for example, Um, we formerly, or we have had a client that is very successful these...

...days called that that calls on trucking companies and in that realm, you know, it's a mom and pop shop style of business, communication via the phone is not only like the right kind, but it's like it's establishedes trust and all these things. So it's very applicable. Uh, for me personally, being a you know, you know, like an executive in the marketing and sales world, the only time I put down my phone is actually when it rings. So for me it doesn't work right. So that's what I'm trying to depict. And so for some of it works great, for some of it doesn't work. So make sure it works. Now, if I go and if I have a call center and I put a person in that call center and that person makes a cold call, the counter impact of that is that, you know, like that phone number maybe put on the donut call list. If I extend this and say like Hey, I can also do it email, I'm not going to email outbound. Now, what I see nowadays the sales tools and I have used a tool called superhuman in order to manage my email and one of the early users. Uh. And so what I've what I've noticed and what I've started to do. I don't I cannot only spare, I cannot only reject a person. I cannot only say hey, reject that person. And even within superhuman I can say reject that person and remove them from my mailbox whatever has been sent. I can reject the entire domain, the domain. Now in this who gets hurt? The perspective company. This is counter impact. Now where this breaks my heart is where we go to the next level, when we use when we ask our sales development reps, our first job or second job ors, third job ERS who are early on in their career, you know, like when we ask them to use their linkedin profile to start reaching out, and they get rejected. It is not the company phone number who gets blocked, it's not the company domain name that gets blocked, it is their individual linkedin account that gets blocked. The counter impact of the individual wrap and the way it hits them has far more consequences than the managers who are asking them to do that are currently understanding and, as a result, we need to be very cautious here. What we are asking our people to do not for our best interests but for their best interest. And you know, like and I like to to bring those conversations up, saying it's like we cannot blame it on, on on either party, if they don't know what they're getting into. And this is what they're getting into. Because if you know, like if somebody reaches out to me and SDR and starts selling to me like look, you know, I can help you in the str domain, but once I blocked you, I cannot now, and generally I'm not going to block an SDR for writing me called outbound email. Is Not what I'm looking to do. I'm just, you know, rather provide advising counsel and pointing to a video and it says like hey, probably better off thinking about it in a different way. Let's continue down that path. Then what do you think it means for the future of the bdrs and SDRs, because in general, that seems to be a role that that would create the majority of or a lot of counter impacts the way that most companies are structured today. Will that stick around for the next five, seven years? Not In the role we have it and and for very simple reasons, Steve. It is essentially a manual labor job that soon will be able to be done better by artificial intelligence that gets more information from from the from the website, from from public sources. And you know, you see this currently plenty of tools that are accumulating their knowledge and allows you to apply to it. But anything that is manual labor historically has the nature of being, you know, like replaced by more automatic machinery. And so now what does that mean for the role of the SDR? Look, the great thing that we have, what is the great value of SDR, including our own organization? The Great, the incredible misunderstood value of the SDR role is that it is a great feeder pipeline for the entire organization. It... a great way for young people to come into your organization of first job or second jobs, doesn't have to be young, necessarily a first job or second jobs, that come into the organization, that learn about the norms and the values of and the culture that takes place and that take that experience with them to h r, to customer success, to all kinds of roles throughout the organization, even coding and so on. I mean less likely, but coding is definitely an option. And if we treat that function not as a sales development role, as in a you know here too, but but rather as a hey, this is the first step into an organization. We need to make sure that we we we hold on to train this person, hold on to this person and give them a future career path. That, to me, is what we are really gonna miss once we move to a more automated role. Now, that doesn't mean that it cannot be done. We just need we need to see what that as ther role has done and has helped us with and have to figure out how are we going to figure that out into the future as that role becomes more automated. You know, historically we sold on things like value and R O I and and budget, and one of the most eye opening, or I should say you're opening um parts of the of our previous interview was your section on priority, and priority above everything else. So if you can please just speak to priority in the buying experience, experience, and then we're going to dive a little deeper into how we actually make that happen, of course. So priority. Yeah, there's a really you know, like, yeah, like, and to recap the previous version. Previously we spoke about budget as a form of creating priority enhance the word band came through it and men and men and the revels of that point out that budget is an important feature. Budget. Just having the money was not big enough. What we realized is, Hey, what is the R O I on it? You know what we saw of telepresence when we were asking companies to buy multimillions of dollars off like video studios. What we noticed is that this is like, well, I'm willing to spend that, but how much am I going to get it in return? Hence the term value. You came in. Now I'll woint you because where I'm going will automatically point point the resolution to this. So what value? Is Value? Is Impact promised? Hold on to that value. Is impact promised. So when I'm selling a telepresent studio, I have to say, Oh, the value is that this can make savings on your airline tickets, that this can make a savings of people traveling staying hotels, that this can increase the productivity of a person. That is the value. Now I have to prove that later on and when I prove it. It's called impact. So, for example, when I buy a car to take me to the office, the value is that it can take me to the office. I still need to drive it by gasoline, by parking and so on and so forth. All that value. Value is impact promised. Impact is value realized. So the left side of the bow time is boat ties all about value and marketing and sales does that. And then the right stead of the following, what we now call nowadays called customer success, is all on realization of that value and turning that into impact. As I said before, the new first principle of today's business is recurring revenue requires recurring impact. If I don't have recurring impact, that will not be any recurring revenue. Recurring revenue is the outcome of recurring impact. Now, if I on the right get that and I get that recurring impact to occur, then I know I'm going to get the recurring revenue. And that brings us to the next level, after budget and after Um Um r o I. Impact as a function of time create either a compelling event or a critical event. We call that priority. Priority is impact as a function of time. Sometimes you need the impact priority. Sometimes you don't need it. For example, and I use this you know, here in California, I at a generator. I bought a generator at the moment...

...the fires were burning down and we started to get hit with outages. I mean like talking about, like, you know, buying an impact that is time critical right now. When you have experienced previously an outage and you had to ditch your your refrigerator, for example, then is what I call you're an educated buyer. You have experienced a critical event and so you can ask people, have you experienced it before? Yes, then when I sell the generator it's an easier sell. If I say, Hey, you're writing an RFP. Now you're writing a proposal. Have you experienced the impact before? No, but we're thinking it's going to happen in the future. That is a different kind of sill. You do not have experienced it, so you never have an experience. In that case you often create what we call a compelling event. A compelling event has no impact associated with it that you can empathize with. So compelling event is often the proposal. Do Date, the RFP response date. That is a compelling event. It's important. You need to submit it, but there's no immediate negative impact associative with it and those people of you. Unless there's federal government contracts, in many cases you can be two or three days late. Now the real what we now see that priority is essentially determinant in in the way how buyers, how customers, are making buying decisions, and this is based on the amount of Sass services that the company is buying. We're no longer buying one s a p one, crm one, earp One and swan system. We're buying like twelve. You know, a quarter, and even companies are size and your size. You you must have dozens and dozens. You probably have. I would say that you have forty Saas contract that you don't even aware of, that you you never see, that you have that you're paying for. Is a company you have never seen, nobody sees. You seem to use it, but you're paying for it. And so, because this volume has gone up, it's a priority. And then what we are saying now today, and this is so key, as you hear the the number one challenge that sales professionals have is to recoup clients out of the go dark stage. Client has gone dark like submitt's proposal gone dark. And then we we we are asking sales professionals. Can you determine where they are? Did they have an event coming up? Do they have did they have a critic event in the past? And in most cases people have a hard time, um, yeah, answering that question because they never thought about it that way. The primary goal that they thought about is the client said I needed by August first, and this is the impact that they wanted and they focused on the impact. They needed to reduce the cost, increase the revenue, change this, have an applicant tracking system, they will started hiring. They surpassed a million dollar viewers at that by whatever it is. They focus on that and where we say, although that is important, the determinant factor of today of a buyer buying. Is this a priority this month? Because even if it's not a priority this month, it maybe next quarter or maybe after January first, or maybe after we reach a million viewers. I love it for folks who are listening there's a sixty two back button for a reason. I think that might be like four clicks to go back to the beginning of that one. But the way that you broke that down, uh, it was fantastic and I'm looking forward to playing that back again. One quick follow up Um is, in your view, is priority something to be discovered through conversation, etcetera, documented, and you gave a good example of how to follow up based on what you learned about priority. Through discovery, probably. Or can it be manufactured in some way that's still sincere and meaningful? Like, can can priority be injected? You know, if someone kind of raises their head and says, Hey, I'm kind of interested in this product or service, tell me a little bit more and they don't necessarily have a level of priority. Can can someone successfully, uh, insert that priority into their mind and into their decision making process... a way that's still sincere and forth right? Yeah, now the most sincere and commonly used way. What is the number one way? How sales, in absence of a critical event, creates a critical event. You know, how would you do that if you're a salesperson? SCARCITY OR PRICING? Absolutely BINGO, Steve. It's rare that I have somebody who just popped up scarcity, hey, product is gonna end, and that's what most people forget. And then pricing most people get, but scarcy just like that. Snap it, okay, love it. So it needs scarcity or and so they're gonna say like, if you don't buy, I'm not gonna have I'm not gonna have to support or if you buy by that time, I'm gonna give discount. Right. Mind you, practical advice for anybody does that. I'm not against it. I just want to make sure that anybody who ever gives a discount in the quote that they provide with the discount, they write in relatively easy to read letters the consequence of not hitting the date. Most people say, if you order buy this date, you get off. It is super important for discounts to write if you don't buy by August two, as of August twenty three, the price will be x. Now here's what happens. The buyer sees that, and I mean the CFO sees that. And see if I was going to create, at the end of the quarter, three steps, three piles of purchase orders, are gonna sign burchage order numb. They're not gonna get to that. It's purchase order with no expiration day, just as a discount level. Thank you very much. We'll do that. When I get to Purchan order. Too as a discount. We'll get to that. But why did my orders when I was in sales always get signed first, the day before the quarter closed, the day before the month closed? Because it says, as of Monday, we will charge you extra and that our charge of the normal fee. And it is very natural behavior for a person who is accounting base go like has penalty, has no mentalty has nothing right, and so they create, so create that. It also creates clarity and so on. Okay, then you will come to me. So, Jocko, but as of Monday. Oh, I'm so sorry, I forgot the dates. I really apologize. Can you please, please, please, extend to discount, you know, like, of course, what are you gonna say? No, of course you're gonna say yes. Now make a trade, I would say, Steve It really you know what, I'm gonna help you. Give it great, right, give it. Don't even trade right away, like, look, more than welcome to help you. Can you help me with something? Steve, my CEO is trying to get with your CEO. Could you help brokerow meeting? Could you help me out and broke re meeting between the two. Now what I get is the CEO t CEO The one that I was looking for, and my CEO can say hey, welcome, thank you for signing a customer, and I have a CEO CEO relationship. In case later on something goes wrong, you know, they at least have spoken for the first time. Look, easy trade to make. I help you know. There you go. I help you help me out here to a bit right, and not as mutual behavior. Now that is behavior that I can implement right then and there, now where I can apply critical event as well, where it's most powerful, if I can apply to my targeting, to my a B M campaign. Now, for example, sometimes events occur that are of such nature that you target the entire market. So, for example, uh, the infrastructure budget being released right like when an infrastructure buget like that being released, that is an entire market. The building market will benefit that from we had the same thing. Was it's about a twelve now, sixty years ago, twelve years ago, the the A C A budget will release, the medical right, these are things. School budget, you know, California having something. These are events. Does your marketing apartment is aware of that and are we marketing that? Because that's an entire segment who suddenly needs to submit and make purchases of a particular product. The trucking industry that I spoke about, they had a date previously. They were doing everything manual and they had a date and I forget what it was, but it was something like January, one of two thousand eighteen that all trucks needs to have this electronic device on board. Obviously that... was very aware of it, but these these things are critical events and make it easy on us, and sometimes we forget about that. Quick change of gears to something a little bit more personal that I just now that I have you in conversation here that I've just been curious about since I uh connected with you on Linkedin your headline. Yes, working with customers opened my eyes and changed my life. Being kind and assuming positive intent will help you see the world from a different perspective. What you chose to do with that limited character count is awesome. I just want to hear you speak to it like. Um, I mean, I feel like I know where you're going with but like I want to hear your own words and with your own spirit. No, I think you'll like look, I was raised in a culture where sills had a direct relationship too, steak dinners, to Golfing, a strip clubs Um, and internationally, much worse in you know, like and so on and so look, the ulti I was raised in. Um is a culture that I was not proud of, right, as an as an Alpha, going through that, and the way how we you know, like look, Um, I want you to understand that sales was a very it's called an individual contributor because it was a very individual contributor role. You went out on a Monday or Sunday night all alone for four days and those of US Lucky return on Thursday night, some of them return on Friday and sometimes you were gone weeks out of office. I want you to imagine that. That is the culture that existed in B Two B enterprise, sales, particularly, as you know, as we talked about years ago, long ago, but not that long ago, right, some of its markets. Some of the listeners go like, Um, we still have that. Okay, now what you and I and all of us can either. Well, the choice that we've made. It says, like you know, although I didn't create that, the one thing that I will not stand for is that we propagated that. Needs to end. End of story. We're not. We just we can't live in that world of rock locker room behavior, uh stuff kind of kind of way and always talking about the customers, like, you know, sign on the dotted line and so on. So we are responsible. We are a new generation now, when I look around us right now and I see the marketing, sales and customer sales perspective, I've now been in what I'm doing today for ten years. I am responsible for what is coming next. You know, future generations can see the youtube videos and will hold me accountable for what I've said right like that is normal. So now, when we were across this podcast, what do we talk about? What do we say? Are we kind of talk about how you can spam people with email and get the response rate up by two point eight percent, like, is that the topic we're going to talk about? Is that I don't like. I don't like to think what has happened in my life is the moment in time that I have started, I have felt comfortable enough, no longer afraid of the consequences of naysayers and stuff like that. The moment in time that I spoke up and started saying we need to stop this, or rather let's not even start thinking about me to stop this. Just said, hey, here's how are we gonna go forward? Everything has started to old. Doors started to open. Money came in, rolling when I needed it, not like overwhelmingly, but always just enough to make it through to the next thing, the next thing, and so I realized that, Hey, look, if this door keeps on opening and I'm not gonna stop pushing, and I know that more and more. Now what I find today is that I need to take a step back, and you know, I let others say the same thing. Sometimes you need to you've pushed and then you've got to remove yourself so that others can take over and move on, because otherwise you become not only the motivator, you can also hold it back later on. So that's it's, you know, like that and I feel strongly about it. For those you can see, you know, my not not tears welling up, but I have a tendency that when I get emotional, my tears, you know, like started to reflect that in my eyes. But you know, I've every feel are emotional about that. I feel very committed to that.

More so than it's just a tagline on a website or it's a way how we make money. It's essentially, and many of you who know people at winning by design is how we almost look at everything and winning by design. You are a wealth valuable information and we're deeply grateful that you contributed to the book and this podcast here. What is there a particular topic, person or chapter that that you're interested in getting out to the world in the book and the Human Centered Communication? Look, I yea like I believe that what you and you know, like what bom bomb has been doing, is is is a super for me, is is. Yeah, it's a book and it's this and it's a chapter and obviously recommended this chapter and I'm so excited about it. Like no what it is? It is you're rallying a group of people. Now, when you go up, think of the following. You all, we all have been on roller coasters, right, and when you're on a roller coaster you go right and as you go up, ready before launch, you're like Takakattack, right, do you know what that Katak attack is? Okay, so there's like a little there's a little UM system of teeth underneath and every time the thing pulls you up that that lock click that is a lock that says you will not go further back then the point that you're in right down. So even if all automation stops, that the cable brakes, you will only roll back two inches because that's where that Kattak will will will write. What you book us and what Bom bomb has been doing. Is You securing that whatever we do next, this is the beginning point. This is the this is now. Okay, let's call this this is what we work from. This is the rolling. We are not at the top, we're still rolling. Still a lot more to do, but this is the new the new way. This is where, this is the baseline we're working from. This is the new approach to looking at marketing, sales, customer success and Swan that's what it does to me. Awesome. I love the analogy. Um, and for folks who are listening, this is part of a series we're doing with all eleven of the expert friends that we invited in, like Jocko, who are kind enough to join us, you can go to bombomb dot com slash podcast. Ay when you look at this post. By the way, we talked a lot about the bow tie funnel. If you're not familiar with it, I will drop an image of the bow tie funnel into the post associated with this episode, but you can also check out some of the ones we've already released, like Dan tire of Hubspot, Matt Sweezy of Salesforce, Lauren Bailey of factorate and girls club. We have a number of expert friends who's podcast episodes you can listen to a bomb boo dot com slash podcast, and coming soon we've got vivid von Rosen and Van Gresso, Adam Kantos, the CEO of Remax. There's a lot going on there. And if you want to check out the book, that's at bombomb dot com slash book. Jocko, before we let you go, we always have something. I have something to share. Can I share? I got something exciting to share. Yeah, jump right in. Okay, well, what I what I have to share? You know, like, what am I gonna say? Okay, let's bring snooping, Ladies and gentlemen, I have something to share. Okay, so, as of June six we are winning by design. I have to say. Our business is extremely successful, so I don't have to worry about that. We have been successful on the framework of the bow tie of the impact and the priority based framework that you heard me describe it. As of June six we will make this available unwy one. We make this available license free, or rather on our common uh license, on a new website that we're called the science of revenue, so that in the future of sales organizations start or want to implement some of this, they no longer have to start and be set back with a system that will hold them down for a long time. And we want to make sure, you know, I call it the national park kind of approach.

Let Look, if this works and people are happy with it, then you know, like we want to avoid any vendor lock in or lockout moving forward Um, and so we separated it from the winning by design entity and we call it the science of Revenue Dot Com. And in there you can start applying the boat that. You can download it, you can copy it, you can download the Google slide on it, you can put it into your company, you can do with it what you want, you can edit it, you can modify it, you can use spice, impact, critical event. All that frameworks are now going to be made available to you, to to our community as a whole, hoping to put in another clock, clock, clock. That's amazing. I mean there's already yeah, as you say, there's I mean there's already so much, like in your books, in the Youtube Channel. There's already so much already available. I love that you're taking this to the next level. And for folks who are listening, Steve mentioned off the top, we are customers of winning by design. We have learned a lot from them. They've been very helpful to us, and so I know that, uh uh, this new site in these resources are going to be helpful, whether or not you formally engage them. Um, you at least need to start there. Um, that's awesome. That's right. And in the end we know it's like look, but well, why? I'm a big believer in people buy from you. You don't sell to them. So if you help people will be successful in the end. The outcoming is greatness and you don't have to worry about that. If you keep that in mind. I believe that's one of the most successful things. I was once thought about in my own way. Impact is the precursor to revenue. There you go. It reminds me of lead with value and abundance will follow. Exactly what you're doing. I love it how you folks get and so well. Thank you. So uh, let's yeah, let's let's wind this up or put a boat tie on this one, ha, ha, uh. And thank or mentioned someone that has a major impact to to your life and or career. Jocko. Okay, this is obviously this is a great time to mention and Ferris, I want you to understand that I feel Um that I've will challenge by mentioning a name and even gonna you know, like I believe that over time that we overestimate often the value of one person or you are not overestimated. We often put a lot of value on that. What I find historically that actually it is so many voices, not one, not to not like a trainer or a coach. They all have great influence, I have to say, but there's so many independent voices you hear left and right when you saying you know, like when you meet somebody at a camping ground or and so on. So, if I look back, I believe that the voices that I've heard you are a product of your culture. And now we you know, like we should take a lot of care in who am typically in today's world. Who are the people that we surround with and what are the voices that we listen to? Um, and I think that if we take good care of that, that the future will all take care of itself. Yeah, is there a brand or a company that you appreciate for the experience they deliver you as a customer? Um. Well, first of all, I want to start thank Delta for flying me home. They get so much bad crap airlines. They never get like these good stories. So why not leave in a good note on how Delta has this grievance flight which gives you this benefit when you needed the most. Awesome. For folks you want to Oh, be ready, I live in the moment and we're gonna own it. Yeah, watch me, don't forget, look at me going. All of us, we are in such a privileged position. Yeah, here, we know, here, we know absolutely privilege, and if we don't pass it on, if you don't realize it, if you don't enjoy it, it will pass it by. It's good. We'll be up and with that. Steve Ethan, thank you for having me today. Okay, thank you, Jocko. Thanks Jacko. In the future will... virtually selling and serving more often, but the channels we're trying to connect and communicate through our noisy and polluted and our faceless digital communication is both visually and emotionally impoverished. So how do we stand out? How do we truly connect? How do we make people feel like people and not like numbers? Get answers to these questions and more from more than a dozen experts, including a marketing futurist from salesforce, the first salesperson at Hubspot, two co founders of Ven Gresso and an emotional intelligence expert with seven U s patents in the analysis of facial coding data by the Wall Street Journal Bestseller Human Centered Communication, a business case against digital pollution. Learn more about human centered communication at bomb bomb dot com slash book. That's BOM bomb dot com slash book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bomb bomb dot com slash podcast.

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