The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 151 · 5 months ago

151. Creating Holistic and Immersive Experiences w/ Mathew Sweezey

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Moving forward, nearly every experience is going to be hybrid: both physical and virtual. We’ll need to provide a hybrid experience for our employees as well as our customers.

In the third episode of our Human-Centered Connection expert series, Steve Pacinelli and I interview Mathew Sweezey, Director of Market Strategy at Salesforce, about internal marketing, the immersive experience, and employee experience.

Mathew talked with us about:

- What’s missing from the equation of experience

- How to craft hybrid experiences

- Why internal marketing should be your next big focus

- How to focus on creating immersive employee experiences

- What managers can do to create a great experience

Here are some links to resources we mentioned:

- Mathew Sweezey on LinkedIn

- MathewSweezey.com

- Salesforce.com

- Salesforce Futures Lab

- Patagonia

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog. Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

As we think about immersive I hopethat human aspects stays and I think that's much more cultural than it is technological. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and delivera better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer successexperts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personaland human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host,Ethan Butte. Hey, it's Ethan, and we're doing something a little bitdifferent this summer. Here on the PODCAST, my longtime friend and team member bombombCMO, my coauthor on rehumanize your business. My guest here on episodessix, Steve Passinelli, is now a cohost as well, and one ofthe reasons why is we CO authored a second book called Human Center Communication.It's releasing this October on Fast Company press. You can learn a lot more aboutall be talking a lot more about it. But for that book weengaged eleven expert Friends of ours to contribute, and so together Steve and I arehosting them in customer experience conversations. Steve, who do we have withus this week? Yeah, today we have Matthew sweezy and if you're along time listener to, or even a short time listener to, the customerexperience podcast, you can bank on one thing that Ethan provides a stellar introit to every single guest that comes on the show, and Matthew has beenon the customer experience podcast before. If you were to have listened to episode, you would have heard about matthews myriad of rolls at sales force. Youwould have heard about he owns a part owner of a brewery called even tide. You would have heard about him authoring two separate books, and one ofthem the context marketing revolution, which is one of my favorite books that Iread last year, absolutely awesome. And you would have heard about his amazingpodcast. So electronic propaganda society. So I'm not going to go through allof those items in depth. You can listen to the previous episode. Iwant to tell you about why we decided to have matthew to ask him tobe a part of human center communication, our new upcoming book. And ifyou know matthew or you follow him online, you know one thing as well thathe is a master of experiences and no matter what he does. Whetheryou checked out the electronic propaganda society, which is an award winning podcast,you would have heard a podcast that was done unlike any other podcast that I'veheard before, episodic with music in the background. It was more of astory and less of a podcast. Matthew, I don't know if you remember,but you actually gave a presentation for bombomb in two thousand and eighteen toour marketing team as well, and it is something that so many team membersstill talk about, you know, to this day, because you created ahuman a customer experience, you know, for us, in the knowledge thatyou imparted on us and everything that you do from your Linkedin Post and howmuch you give there, we were so excited to invite Matthew to not onlybe a part of the show but, of course, be a part ofthe upcoming book, and so that's the best intro I can give you.Know I'm trying to follow the master here, Ethan. So what are we goingto talk about today? In the book you're going to hear a lotabout matthew talking about customer experience and a lot about the context marketing framework.Today we want to focus more on the employee experience here and we want tofocus on not only a pully experience but the use of video throughout that experienceas well. Where can video be most effective? And communicating with fellow employeesand communicating more clearly and more effectively. And we didn't want to do justa rehash of the content that you're going to read in the upcoming book orof the video interview that you had that you would have access to if yousigned up for or purchase the upcoming book...

...ahead of time, which we'll talkabout later. We want to do something a little bit more tangental. Sowelcome to the show, Matthew. Sorry that was a long intro but I'mjust excited to have you here now. I'm glad to be here. Thanksfor having me. Yeah, so we're going to do on this one?We're going to do what we always do before we get into X, beforewe go inside sales force a little bit. I think everybody knows the name butthey don't know the company like in detail, like an eight year,nine year employee would. But will start where we always start, which iscustomer experience. When I say that to you, what does that mean?A thousand things. It means so many different things. That's the hard part. You need, depending on how you define it as an organization, reallyto depends on what it means what you do with it. Traditionally, customerexperience in the modern definition from most organizations means post sale, so means likethat's the organization that owns it, post sale. I would prefer people thinkabout that in terms of the holistic journey of everything. Is the customer experience, whether they are a prospect, whether they're a buyer, whether they're acustomer. That's still an experience that needs to be consistent and holistic. Butthere's a thousand things and just and then there's so many a little fun topicsunder it. So lots of stuff cool in your view. I think Iknow where you stand on this, but I really enjoy asking, as afollow up, in your recommendation or preference, what you would prefer to see fromorganizations. Is it better as a role, title or a team likea specific responsibility, or do you prefer sex to be treated as a kindof a transcendent cultural quality or an ethos of the company? What it thoughtsyou have their definitely the ladder. Anytime you silo something, you have aproblem specifically when that thing needs to be a part of every moment that youproduce. So I mean one of the big things that we're talking about andtrying to help people understand right now is this notion of this is a simplequestion. Do you have a brand standard? I'm sure you do, every onedoes, and I'm sure every experience that your organization creates has to fitwithin that brand standard, meaning it's got to have this font, it's gotto have this color, it's got to have this thematic theme. For usthat's these characters, bears and mountain goats and lots of the trailblazing icons.Then you want to ask the flip question, which is, in a world ofexperiences, do you have an experience guide? And if every touch pointis an experience, the question then becomes will then if it's only owned byone department, it really can't be that holistic. So it needs to bemuch bigger, needs to be a part of the ethos of the organization andit needs to have a functional tactical guide. Just like you have a brand guideline, you should have something like a brand os or experience guideline. Loveit and it seems like, Gosh, you could really blend those two becausesomeone needs to create that guide and kind of teach it in force. ThatI would imagine they'd be like a long term project. Do you know anycompanies that have kind of undertaken an effort like that? I mean there's lotsof various different ways and organizations that have done that. I mean I'm prettyfamiliar with brandos through a company called big which is renny used to run thehead of a head of digital for widening Kennedy. He does a lot ofwork with that these days. But yeah, there's just a lot of different organizationsthat do that. One Organization specifically that is done and more more tacticalon experience in terms of an experience guideline. They really added it to the customerjourney map. That was Phillips so good be to be example. Theyactually took and they did two things, so we can talk about this ina second first off, as they had a line, they had the customerjourney and that that mapped out, and then the added two lines below thatline. Below that first line was what is the employee experience in this moment? What do we want to be designing for for that in the second onewas what is the experience guidelines? So if we then start to decentralize andhave teams orchestrate in these moments, what is their guiding principles? And thatwith then a line to that map as well. Really Smart. I rememberyou. I think you're involved with Meta cx. I've had a couple ofthe metic x crew on the show, Scott mccorkle and on and Tarathan intheir CEO and their ash. What is onens title? He runs all aproduct in death, I think, chief product officer, and I think youdid a piece with them about outcomes versus experiences. How do you regard therelationship between those two like? In my...

...mind, I feel like like outcomeis part of the experience, but I know they could be treated separately aswell. You Man, we had to take a step back. This mighttake a second to get through. All right. So, going back intothe middle of two thousand and twenty, me and a colleague, Karen Mangi, asked a question which was how has covid changed your organization's idea of experience? So we sat down and talked to a lot of different organizations and thatreally kind of bubbled up this theme, which was we started hearing over andover and over in these interviews that MPs is no longer our north star metric. We are now focused on the orchestrating outcomes and we have a new metriccalled time to value. It's not a new metric, it's the new NorthStar metric for a lot of organizations. Now, these are hyperprogressive organizations,right. These are companies that have been focused on experience for upwards of sixyears. And when I say focused on experience, I don't mean in apaper Tiger Way, right. I don't mean that they gave somebody the titleof experience, but ever gave them a budget or team or authority. Thisis full executive support and sponsorship for moving the entire organization into an experiential world. Step one. That happened like, on average, anywhere between three andsix years ago. Now they've said we've moved past that and we're now focusingon outcomes, and that's really what kind of spurred that research with the MEDICEXteam, because they really focused on outcomes as well. In fact, they'vecreated a platform to help orchestrate outcomes, and so you know, when westart to think about this. Here's the really big quote that I heard fromthat research that really sparked off that project with Medicx, talking to achieve customerofficer. They said we have happy customers with great experiences leave all the time. We have unhappy customers with bad experiences stay. The differences are the outcomesthat they receive, and I think this is what has been missing from thisequation of experience. It's it's not experience for experience Sake, because an experiencethat doesn't lead to the desired outcome is for not because it doesn't matter,because it doesn't help the person accomplish their goal. The flip is that whenwe think of experiences in specifically the be to be context and most context,a better experience is something that helps the person achieve the goal and a moreefficient manner. Right. So it's you know, whether I want to.You could apply that to any logic, whether it's a sporting event or it'sa tool that you have to utilize or it's a product you have to interfacewith. If I have a goal and I can get that goal and thatoutcome more efficiently or better, then it's a better experience. I'm happier andI stay a customer longer. So those two things have to be interconnected.It was that disconnect that didn't necessarily it wasn't really well articulated. It's adust statement, but now what we're talking about is organizations actually taking action onthis and reorganizing and doing lots of radical things. We're talking about radical newgo to market strategy SA. As a result, it's talking about outcomes andexperiences, one of the things that you mentioned when we were interviewing you forthe book, or immersive experiences and whether we're talking about like AAR or Vror just something that's more immersive in general. What companies have you seen before currentlywho are currently creating awesome immersive experiences that actually lead to customer outcomes?It's a that's a big question. Like what specifically are people doing and whois it? I think the easier answers just to talk about, as wethink about this future, of what is experience and what is immersive. Atfirst step it's just to realize that everything we do is going to be hybridmoving forward, being they'll be a combination of physical and virtual. So ifwe start there, then we'd answer the next question is, what are thanthe three keys of those hybrid experiences, of those virtual experiences or immersive experiences, pick whichever term you want to use. It's going to be agency. Sothe individuals are going to have agency over that moment. So if wethink about this and you look at the world of what people are doing andwhere people are going, I just did the math real quickly in the backof a Napkin working on a project like twenty minutes ago for I get onthis call. Do you know in two thousand and twenty twitch had four timesas many views as the top ten cable channels combined on a month? No, I did not know that. Right then, the second thing is tolook at what agency a human has on twitch. Right, they have theagency to interface with the actual producer. They have the agency to communicate withall the other people on screen in real...

...time. Right then you start lookingat all these other types of things that have happened. Right. So lookat Minecrafts, a great example. It's a super easy classic example, butas we've seen the past year, there have been dozens of new worlds wherepeople go in and they don't just go in and play the game, theycreate their own world to then play their own game. So it's complete agencyover the platform itself, right. Then you start looking at all these otheraspects. you start looking at virtual clothes, right. So now we start tosee that there are clothing lines that are selling virtual clothes. These clothesare not meant to be produced in physical worlds. They are literally and physicallyonly designed to be shown on a screen for you and your virtual space,and they are being paid for with real dollars, right, and they areradically crazy outfits. Right. So, when you start to think about this, that step one is when we then design these worlds, we must makesure that we are allowing people to have agency over those moments. The GreaterAgency, the greater engagement, right. So the more agency you give someone, the more engagement you will be able to drive from it. The secondis, in these experiences must be multidimensional, right. So hybrid is a reallyeasy just two dimensions, physical and virtual. But when you start tothen ask these other questions and such as how many people are listening to thisright now, just take a look around you and see how many other devicesare right there in front of you and what is happening on those other devicesright now. Right. So there's a multidimension that we have to start thinkingabout in terms of these virtual experiences. And then the third thing is uniquevalue. When you then have another experience, it has to have a value thatis unique, that's differentiated from the other thing that it was prior.So, good example, if we then start to say that we're going tohave virtual and hybrid sporting events, the virtual and hybrid event has to havea value that is uncapable of being achieved inside the physical space. Right.So you have to have a unique value. It can't just be a simple reproductionof the broadcast. We've been doing that for years. You know.What we're now seeing is if you have the ability to then give them aunique value. Simple, that easy thought. Right. Broadcast typically have one stream. What happens if you give people ten streams and allow them to pickand choose and be their own producers? Right, like, there's lots ofreally easy concepts. This thing can be applied to so, rather than sayingwho's doing it, well, I would say think about those three key thingswhen you're designing for those immersive experiences. Make sure that you give people agency, make sure that you're accounting for multiple dimensions and make sure that you're deliveringsome type of a unique value in that moment that is not available in othermoments. Gosh's dumbing that down really quickly. It's I mean it's really it's thisblending of production and consumption. You know, I used to think aboutmy own behavior. Is Like I would just consume something, I would readsomething, I would watch something, I would listen to something whatever, or, on the other hand, I would be producing something. But this,like this vision that you're drawing, this immersive experience, is just this mashingof production and consumption where I am the producer of the game that I amwatching and I'm actively mixed so interesting. Sorry, Steve, oh no,no, that's all right. It's funny. We were having a conversation, Iget, yesterday or the day before, Ethan talking about Matthew and how everytime that you chat with him you you learned something and it's like rightoff the bat, like I like that was just awesome. Thank you somuch for for the detailed explanation. Come what a change gears just a littlebit, though, because everyone knows sales force. Everyone on the planet knowssales force, but you don't really know about sales force. Why don't giveus a bit of a background on your current role at future labs, whatthat looks like, what you're doing there, what you're responsible for? Yeah,so recently, is it like a couple weeks ago now, partner inthe future labs. So we've taken a lot of the future of marketing workthat have been doing for a long time and we've actually officially merged at intothe futures lab. So the future's lab, for those that may not know,was something that was created by Peter Schwartz and Lencaur others, and Peterbefore had run a company called Gban, a global business networks. He's oneof the pioneers of scenario planning, one...

...of the leading futurists of the world. It is simple way to just think about Peter Real quickly. If you'veever seen war games, minority reply or or her all of those future realitieslook the way they do because Steven picked up the phone and called Peter toask him what the future looked like. So that's where Peter Plays. SoMark Brings Peter over and ask Peter to make sales force to place where peoplego to see the future, and so that was his directive and so that'swhat we're continuing to do with the futures lab. So really looking at creatingimmersive experiences that help people see the future and how businesses and consumers connect tonew ways in those worlds. Talk about those. I'm going to jump rightback on a massive experiences again because it's too fascinating of a topic. Talkabout those experiences and internal marketing. An internal marketing? I don't, I'vesaid, not been asked that question before, so it may take a second tocome up with an answer. When we think about immersive, I meanif you just look at how just if you look the way the world ofwork has changed, right, when we look at the future of work,we know a lot of basic things. One, it's highly distributed work fromhome. Right, when we look at all the projections, I think themost surprising statistics that I saw come out of covid from work from home.Where this is this the distics of sales. I think everyone's initial thought was,specifically in B tob sales, that it's going to have a massive negativeimpact if people can't meet facetoface on be tob sales. But in fact,what you saw was one third of be tob sellers in this fully virtual,fully virtual environment were more effective, the next third was equal and only onethird was less. So you could say based on that could be a wash, but what we're saying is there's still a third of people that are goingto be more effective and a completely virtual world. So there's that. Theway that we are collaborating in these worlds is completely changed, right. Soyou had to move from, you know, all your regular physical meetings to virtualmeetings. You also then had to move into some type of a collaborativeworkplace, slack teams, lots of those different aspects. So as we thinkabout creating amersive experiences for employees, we have to start accounting for all ofthese different moments and then you have to start saying, how does this changehow that person feels about their job and how they want to do their job, and is it easier for them to do your job? And so that'swhere you start to see employee experience really start to come in as we startto think about the future of work, because it's not just can they getthe work done, it's now going to be on the onus of the companyto really make sure that person is as efficient and as productive as possible throughmodern technology. Right. So we've done a lot of these things in thepast. Or you had knowledge bass, right, so everyone can know wherethey could go. We started to have software. You could go and youcould you know, over the past ten years, business software. You know, I don't have to go to Hlor to get my w two anymore,so going to you know, work day and pull it down. As westart moving forward, we have to start thinking about what does the employee experiencelook like and how do we make that better? And so you're using theterm immersive. So think about these possible futures. Let's say that you area service agent and let's say that you get a service call and that servicecall comes in and the person has a problem. XYZING doesn't matter. Theproblem is but the service agent isn't trained to solve that problem. Service agentgets off the call. Inline and software what happens next, as they getprompt to take a course for ten minutes to then upscale them on that skill. That is exactly what's going to be happening. So in line ai isgoing to know what this person knows, what they don't know, knows howthey answered it and knows what they need to learn and then automatically upscale them. So that's going to be an immersive experience that you're going to start tosee of how we train people. It's moving from macro skill to micro skill. You could take that a step further and say well then, but Idon't. We don't want to go down that rabbit hole. But, like, Micro Skilling is a massive difference in the future. Right, it's justradically transformational. The entire educational system in the future will be based on microskills. It's already the White House is already working on it. We're workingwith them on that project. So you've got lots of cool stuff going downon that. We start thinking about immersive experiences in terms of how we collaborate. Right, we are collaborating completely virtual. A lot of the work that wedo in the future's lab is a lot of workshop experience, is alot of experiential things, right. So we go in tradiitionally, this wouldhave been sticky notes and white boards,...

...drawing, you know, Fun Games, I'm sure, innovation workshops. I'm sure lots of you've been been apart of those and now we're doing them all completely virtual right. So thatis a highly immersive experience. So there's lots of problems that we have withthat. And then it's you know, how do we make those easier forthese employees? How do we retain that knowledge? How do we just makethis a better experience? So as we then start to think about those things, I think video is going to it's played a massive part because that's theonly way you can interface with your colleagues right now. I think the biggestchange for me in terms of how we think about immersive is not necessarily thetechnology or where it's happening. I think the difference moving forward after covid isgoing to be the humanness of it, because in the prior world we werevery buttoned up. Currently, right now, my favorite part of interacting is Iget to see someone's kid in the background, I see someone's spousewalk by, see some cats tail flip the camera right, you see all kinds ofit's extremely human and it's a totally different experience that is very human. ThatI don't want to change as we go back. I hope I don't knowthat if, what, if, this will happen or not. My hopeis that as we go back, it is still okay to wear a tshirt and Pajama pants if you're working from home period right. If you wantto, you know, dress up and you in the office, that's fine, but I don't want to lose that humanness of the virtual interactions that wehave currently. Dialog is different, imagery is different, the feeling is different. So, you know, as we think about immersive I hope that humanaspect stays and I think that's much more cultural than it is technological. Dowhen I ask the next one, Eathan or I that I think we stayon on X, at sales force in particular. I mean, you're aneight year, nine year employee, I forget how long you've been there,and you know you cited that that research last time we talk this'. Oneof the things I love about talking with you is that, whether we're talking, whether I'm listening to you at someone else's show, or whether we're readingyou digitally, you're reading you in print, there's always do research. But this, this idea of great x, is a necessary precursor to great xand great x as a necessary precursor to revenue growth. Specifically, one eightx revenue growth if done correctly, per research with Tiffany Bova, sales force, Forbes insights and so you know, when you think about this in thecontext of sales force, like what what are some of the elements that you'veseen over the years specific to x that you think I know the research isrelatively new, although it's done in other ways less specifically earlier on to butlike, what have you seen either emerge or change or be consistent in yourtime and side obviously a world class organization that you think has been key toyour success for that value chain? Yes, let's there's a couple of really easyexamples that will pick on. Number one is if we go back tohow executive leadership talked to the organization in the past and how we do itnow is radically different. So traditional. You would have had a town hall, it would have been virtual, because you know we are a global organization, so it would have been scaled and you've trained. It would have beenprobably pretty standard what you're probably pretty used to. Someone stands behind a podium, someone's giving a power point, there's a video camera showing that to theworld. No, nothing really revolutionary. What happens now is there's a TVshow produced every week for internal employee and that TV show has everything from,you know, a list celebrity guests all the way through to talking about thingsthat we need to know about in the company. But it's highly produced,completely virtual, right. All these people are all in virtual spaces, andthen it's delivered on a weekly basis. So we have like these new elementsof experience that just never existed before. We have an entire series called can'tbe well, and then that's all about, you know, the human side oflike taking care of yourself, you know, like and that's all about, you know, they'll be a meditation,...

...they'll be a yoga, they'll be, you know, some type of physical movement and then be some othertype of topic. But it's not about business at all. It's all aboutmaking sure that US employees are taking care of ourselves, and that is somethingthat happens on a weekly basis. So, you know, there's a lot ofbig changes and these are all video. These are all delivered by a videoyou know, and then when we play them, you know, there'sfull interactivity. We've got back channels where you can communicate, you can throwquestions in yeah, it's just it's very interactive. So those are all bigchanges to employee experience that have happened and you know, those are all virtualexperiences. I don't know how the physical experiences are going to be yet becausewe haven't gone back. You know, in my question is we're a techcompany and if you've ever worked for a tech companies like the standard experiences orpink pong tables and fully stocked fridges. Right. That's like the easy baseline. Of course we're still going to have those. But what else changes?I mean it's going to be different, like, I don't know, likethere's sure they'll be less people in the office, but I don't know.And your point earlier with the hybrid of virtual in person. Now you needto allocate for both when more people go back and make sure that both experiencesare you know, are great. You talked about providing a great experience froma company level and in the upcoming book you talk a lot about providing greatexperiences for customers. We talked about, you know, switchers and webinars andcreating a different type of experience, not just some standing in front of acamera and talking. So take both of those topics a better experience from acompany for the employee level and then using the latest technology tools to create greatexperience for future customers. How can the average, not the average, buta VP of sales, a director, a manager, create great experiences usingthe same or similar tools? Do you see managers using switchers or trying toeducate their little group of seven sales reps in a different manner, or theyteaching and training the same way on a smaller scale? It's a good question. I don't know if I have enough research really kind of give you somekind of a definitive answer on that. I can tell you, you knowwhen I've engaged with you know. Let's just take sales, right so I'llgo and give a presentation to a group of sales, you know, managersand their reps, to kind of fill them in on what's new and whatshould they be talking about, how I should be talking about it, andwe do that by a pretty traditional it's just a basic webinar. So interms of the lift for that, I don't see department heads doing that largeof an investment in terms of full TV production those different aspects, because thefrequency, the value, like I think the incremental value from a Webinar.It's just to that because the audience is fixed, right. They don't haveto get the audience to come back. They're going to come back regardless becausethey need a paycheck. That's the carrot, right, like do you want toget paid, you show up. So I don't necessarily see those peoplereally investing in and taking the time to then really do these overprofessional things.I see those more as larger scale efforts where you're trying to keep an intractan audience and keep that audience. I think that's going to be the differencewhen there's competition involved, but when it's just basic knowledge share, I thinkjust standard videos going to work for a lot of those organizations. That makessense. I saw something this week, though, called the bye board,where it's like this big TV board that the person can draw on and itworks with Zoom and allows like white boarding sessions, like with your team live, and it really just got me thinking down that path. Like because it'sexpensive. What everybody invest in that? Yeah, I don't know. Imean we do all that one jamboard and Mero and you know, pick yourLucy Chart, like pick your pick your flavor of collaborative you know, stickynote tool, and we all do that in different ways, you know.So I think that's a collaborative team thing. If you're going to workshop and workthrough something just standard meetings, I don't know, it's almost a newart form at is. So I like I look at the Lucid Charts I'vemade to like explain something or to work...

...something out or to work with somebodyelse. So I look at other people's are like that is a work ofart. It's not. It's not a new art form. It's a newskill that we're going to have to embrace, right. So I think that isa big thing. So there's the two big skills and I think thatpeople need to really consider and embrace our facilitation design and then all the elementsaround that facilitation design. So it's, you know, if we're talking abouthow do we solve modern problems, we have new collaboration methodologies. That isa new experience of how we do it right. We have a new thingthat we can do. We know that if we do these things in newways they produce better outcomes. And so then the underlying skill is the facilitationtechnique of do you know how to set this thing up. Do you knowhow to run this? It's not a standard power point in a meeting.You're not just putting up five slides and opening up a discussion, right.You're going in and you're, you know, putting sticky notes on. You're playingdifferent games, right, and there's a whole like there's a whole professionof facilitation that now everyone is going to have to have, because if you'regoing to want to run that team meeting, to a whiteboard and doing these differentthings, and now you have these different capabilities, it's so much faster forus to harvest information from groups of people, it's so much faster to get consensus, it's so much faster to then move these things forward and produce betteroutcomes. So I see that as a massive skill that everyone is going tohave to have. And then, Ethan to your point about the drawing.I think that's going to be another human element. Right, no one's expectingeveryone to be a great artist, but we can all play pictionary, right, and so like. That's a basic drawing skill and so like. We'rejust going to have to have that. And if you're looking at those thingsor, you know, pay a visual design or to kind of help youwith those things. But I think there's I think it's a skill of thefuture. Yeah, and I think we learn from each other. I knowI've learned just seeing how other people are using some of these new tools asinspired me to just think about them differently. You know, you come to itthinking of it one way and then you see other ways other people areusing it, and it's been the same thing with the bombomb so software toby the way. So we you know as we originally created and then turnit loose to the world and then you see how people use you're like,oh, that is it's better and different and more than I ever thought itwould be. It's awesome. I want to double back into research briefly,kind of on two levels. One of them is, you know, salesforce obviously has this massive commitment to research. I'd love for you to kind ofyou don't need to like a hard specific answer on it, but likewhat do you think is the the goal or motivation there? It's obviously forexternal use, it's for internal use. It's a blend of both. It'sobviously really important it's just a responsibility that an industry leading and kind of worldclass company should just undertake. And then after that I'd love to get alittle bit more personal and just in knowing your influences from having read and listenedto talk and talking to you, I feel like there's an element of you, you diving deeply and thoughtfully into the past in order to see the presidentfuture more clearly or something. But we'll start first with the big kind ofsales cource question. The simple answer that is just rd. if you justthink about rnd dis his research, right, and so rd's always been a significantbudget of any progressive company. If they want to progress, you haveto have new research and new design. And so for a company like US, software, you're not necessarily doing as much rd to build new tech,but you're doing tons of research on what is your demographic wanting, what's working? And then there's all the market factors, right. So we have multiple layersof research. You've got the traditional research, which is, what doyour customers want? What parts of the product are working? How do wedo that better? And you've got methods that are standard methods. Right.You've got customer advisory Boards, you've got UX, you've got you know,the then you've got really cool new stuff like full story where, you know, you can watch an individual and real time. By the way, love, you just got good job with that one. Then you've got you know. So we do that. Then we've got the external facing research, whichis more of our state of reports, right. So we have an entiredepartment that then develops those reports and that acts as a shared service inside theorganization where they partner with different clouds and...

...figure out, you know, whatdo we want to research? What does the market care about? To know, and that's really used at as you know, mostly it's just content creation, right. We're producing that to then, you know, share with our audienceto keep that relationship alive, but then also gets used back in tosay, what should we be thinking about? HAS SHOULD BE REDESIGNING PRODUCTS? Soit kind of a cyclical aspect to it. But then there's like somany other aspects of research because, you know, you have so many differentclouds, right. So then you've got you know. So you know,we bought demand where, which is one of the world's largest ECOMMERCE platforms,so we have the ability to see those transactions and have that research, right, so that's proprietary that we can run all kinds. So you know,we get to the holiday seasons, we'll be able to show you. Youknow what was the most talked about product and you know what were the bigchanges and how many, what percentage of products were bought with this payment methodologyversus this payment methodology and, like you know, by online pickup in storeincrease sales by twenty five percent for those that did it those didn't. Sothose are super helpful for two reasons. One is we can then provide thatback, right, so we can go back to our customers and say,Hey, if you want to be better, here's the data that you should probablybe looking at to make you better. And then, you know, thenit does the standard content at large, right, we get to talk aboutit, we get to write about it. So I don't know,I just love research because it's what I love insights. I love that kindof stuff. So I don't know if that answers the question, but wejust we have lots and lots of layers of research. Yeah, go intothat a little bit. Personally, as we kind of start heading toward awind down, how do you approach it. I mean, when I think aboutyou and and you like you reminded me of some things that I lovedmyself, like the experience economy, cluetrained manifesto, smallest beautiful, like thesethings that I read, like you've obviously looked back. You know two thingsthat I mean. Small as beautiful is older than you are. It's aboutas old as me. Talk about how you were proach the research. Obviouslyyou're you're using current methods in generating new research, but what is the roleof like, you know, learning from the past in order to inform thatprocess for you personally? For me, personally, it's anxiety and imposter syndrome. So if I don't have a full view know everything about a topic,I feel very unconfident about telling people what to do. I used to havea really big fear when I was speaking on stage, and that fear wasthat I was going to say something and that someone was going to stand upin the audience to be the that's not true. Did you read this?He says this or she says this and at that counteract your point. Iwas really afraid of that. Now it's silly because it's never happened to mein my entire life. So it's kind of like, you know, afear that we have. But so that's to me. The reason why Igo so far back is because I want to have a super solid foundation andunderstand as much as I can, because to me, the more that youunderstand, the more that you understand the reason why things are the way theyare, the better you can then look at signals that are coming out andsaying, how will this affect that and how will that change that? Hasthis change that in the past? What was that effect? How is thisdifferent than that? So I just think that when you're a researcher looking ata topic, it really just behooves you to have a really solid foundation inthe classic ideas. Why do they come about? Where do they come from? Before you really start trying to progress. Awesome every conversation, again, ismentioned in the beginning. I'd learned something by talking to you, Matthew, so then that it has essentially anxiety and and thank you for contributing toto our next book. I want to ask, as we wind this down, as he to mention just a question around the book. Obviously you're you'reone of our eleven guests yeah, what are you looking forward to? Whoare you looking forward to reading about and the book or what excites you aboutit? I think the thing that excites me it's, I mean it's chapterone in the book. I think just, you know, looking through of what'sthere and what I want to read and what I want to dive deeperinto and the topics that really fascinating me. It's digital pollution. I'm a massivefan of media, how media interacts and how it changes the world,and digital pollution is a radical thing. Right. The other day I putup on Linkedin just let this think. In the information age gave way tothe post truth era, right. So...

...we live in a world and wethought that more information would make help us make better decisions, but it's actuallynot what it did. It just allowed us to then have our own biasesand hold onto them longer, you know. So it's a really interesting world ofwhen you have the ability for everyone to make a comment and to producesomething, how does that then change? And then you know, you canpull the signal in the noise analogy of how were you able to determine whatare the signals through all the noise and what is even true? In thisworld and, like you know, we dealt with, you know, spycraftin this world. Right social warfare is like something that we've been talking aboutsince two thousand and twelve. So I don't know, I think that's goingto be that's what I'm super excited about. Is the soil pollue. Awesome.Yeah, it was a fun conversation as part of our interview with youin particular. I mean that subjective aspect of it is so key and folks, you again can read about it. But at the end of the bookwe leaned into a book written by a woman named Nina Shick called deep fakes. She calls it the coming in focalyps which is like obviously a blood ofinformation and apocalypse, and it really immediately you wind up with the when syntheticmedia is as believable as real media. Like he used to mean something tohave video evidence of something. There is a point in the foreseeable future whenvideo evidence means nothing to the degree that we can't like authenticate or verify it. Like it's super interesting. So Post Truth, if you think post truthis interesting. Now, wait, I don't know. Five years to histeen years. It is a called Gate China and South Korea already have Dainews anchors. Those are actually live and in market and have been for years. They had, yes, so I news is completely delivered by an aivirtual bought faced person. Yeah, I wonder how people are reacting to that. Do they enjoy that better or do they want to? Haven't done theresearch into what it the effects of that. I just know that they're doing it. But you could distrapolate really cool things, right, like you canchange series voice. What happens when you just I want to have the newsread by my grandfather every day, right, and then you can extrapolate that intoother industries. Of what happens when I want to have Harry carry actuallybe my announcer again, you know? Yeah, man, I want himto call the bears game. Yeah, you, yeah, that's totally thing. It's not too much games. Yeah, through throws voice in his mannerisms onanything super interesting. If you are listening to this and you have enjoyedour conversation with Matthew Sweezy, obviously these are some of the themes that youcan find in the book that we're working on together, and we're doing theseconversations with all eleven people. So we've already released conversations with Dan tire ofhub spot, with Lauren Bailey, founder and president of both factor eight andGirls Club. Coming up we've got customer service and customer experience expert Chep hikein, a prolific video user, one of the few people in the tenzerovideo club and a linkedin top sales voice for three years running Morgan J Ingram. So we've got these conversations running all summer long. Matthew, thank youfor participating again with us. We love spending time with you. Before welet you go, Steve's got questions for you that I asked you last timeyou appeared on the podcast. Yeah, what company really provides an amazing thatyou've experienced personally that just goes above and beyond and customer experience? Who Doyou want to shout out? Trying to think of the products I've just boughtrecently, I don't really know. Ma just gonna go. I just lovePatagonia. I think everything they do is great. So I'm just gonna gowith their above and beyond. There is I'm going to say with that fromcustomer experience standpoint, it's just in terms of product you can turn something back, you can get it redone, you can get it fixed, you canhave it you shipped back. I just love Patagon you. So I don'tI think it's a hop out answer, but that's going to I'm gonna gowith that one now. It's a good answer. And is there anyone thatyou want to thank that has had a positive impact on your life and orcareer? Oh Geez, so many people. I think just in Lou of Mother'sDay, I'm just can go to my mom. I'm you know,just that was on Sunday and you know, it's want to say thank you somuch mom for, you know, teaching me so much stuff and beingvery supportive of my life and my choices...

...and just, you know, beingthere and being supportive. So and say yeah, mom, awesome, loveit. Well done as always. And plus one to Patagonia, especially onworn where you can buy basically brand new clothes for like sixty five percent ofthe cost of the actual brand new clothes. Before we let you go, youknow, if folks are listening at this point, they've obviously enjoyed theconversation. They've learned as much as Steve and I did. And so wherewould you send people if they want to learn more about you? Your awardwinning podcast, by the way, you feel free to shaft to head out, is steeped. It off the top the books that you've written, thesales force futures lab like. Where would you send people to follow up onthis conversation? Just go to Linkedin and find me on Linkedin and follow along. I really probably might use that platform more than anything else to publish stuffthese days. So just linkedin and spelling of my name is matthew with onetea, and then last name, sweezyswe Ze. Why? Awesome. Thanksso much. Thanks, guys. Too often you're overwhelmed by the amount ofnoise in your inbox and slack in your linkedin messages and every other channel andmedium you use. And guess what, so are your prospects, customers,employees and recruits. Digital pollution is the problem. Human centered communication is asolution. From the authors of the best selling book rehumanize Your Business, comesa new book, Human Centered Communication, a business case against digital pollution,featuring expert insights from leaders at companies like sales force, hub spot and Vangresso, giving you proven methods to earn attention, build trust, create engagement and enhancedreputation, helping you connect and communicate more effectively with the people who mattermost. Learn more and pre order your copy today at Bombombcom. Book andask about special packages for your team, your company or your community by emailingbook at Bombombcom. Visit Bombombcom, book or email book at Bombombcom. Thanksfor listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing youcan do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers.Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcastplayer or visit Bombombcom podcasts.

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