The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 months ago

167. Essential Traits of the Next Generation CRO with Brandi Starr, Rolly Keenan, Mike Geller

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s no reason to keep them separate anymore: success, support, marketing, and sales. Their common goal is revenue, so their common leader should be the CRO. When we’re talking about the next generation of CROs, a Chief Marketing Officer is likely the best candidate because they’re already doing the bulk of that work.  

In this episode, I interview the authors of CMO to CRO: The Revenue Takeover by the Next Generation Executive, Tegrita’s COO Brandi Starr, CRO Rolly Keenan, and President & CTO Mike Geller. We talk a bout why CMOs make such good CROs and how to create a CRO function.  

Join us as we discuss:

  • Why the rise of the CRO is vital to good CX
  • Why Tegrita created a CRO role and wrote a book about it
  • How to tame your Frankenstack
  • What CMOs can do to shift into CROs
  • Where to position RevOps with respect to the CRO function  

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CMOTCRO that is the idea that,of all the kind of revenue leaders had to support, had a marketing hadof sales had a success, the most likely candidate would be a CMO.The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success expertscreate internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal andhuman way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, EthanButte. We've got a first for you today here on the customer experience podcast. Twice before we've hosted two guests at the same time, but today we'rehosting three guests on one episode, the Chief Operating Officer, the chief RevenueOfficer and the President and chief technology officer at Tegrida, a Toronto based modernmarketing and strategy consulting firm. These three are also the CO authors of abook that I really enjoyed and definitely recommend. It's called CMO to crow the revenuetakeover by the next generation executive. Their book has a clear vision forbetter customer experience. A proper revops function and a modern revenue team. These, of course, are the themes will be talking about today. Brandy Star, lly Keenan and Mike Geller, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thankyou, thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks, yeah, this can bereally fun. I think I'm going to keep it all on the rails. Brandy was kind enough to work with me on making sure that I hada direction to go with each of these questions, so I can direct theconversation a little bit, but feel free to jump in any time with anythingyou'd like to add. And we'll start here with you three, who areI start with everyone, which is customer experience. Brandy, when I saycustomer experience, what does that mean to you? Customer experience really is everyinteraction that your customers and prospects have with your brand, and so that's notjust the website or, if you are B Toc, your in person environment. It is literally end to end, from hello, my name is thefirst time that they're introduced to you on through to them hopefully being happy longterm customers. Very good, a question for you. Look, I've alwayswondered this. I feel like, from my perspective, the rise of CXand popular business conversation and popular business culture is parallel with the rise of crowas a way to organize around this idea. And in the book you write customerexperience is a key lever to revenue growth. Does anyone want to makean observation about the relationship between CX and Cro in terms of the fact thatwe're all talking about these things now in a way that we weren't maybe fiveyears ago? I think, and maybe everyone's paused to want me to answerthis, got's it the row. I mean, I would say that theway I see that, the way you're telling the example or the are describingit, is that there's there's truth to what is started, what was startingto happen where experience, customer experiences, are getting really fragmented and poor,and so it was this kind of the thing that kind of happens in businessin a lot of ways, where people are trying things because there's a threatof truth to what they're doing. They're making the wrong move, but there'ssome good things in that move that you know are this not all bad,and I think that's CX, like hey, I don't know why, but let'sthrow like kind of this layer across a bunch of functions called CX orthey try to fix things that are disconnected and they're you know, let's try, let's try to hold them accountable for the overall experience, even though eachfunction is really operating independently. And so I think it was like that attempt. And then the crow similarly like hey, let's get somebody who kind of ownsall of it, but let's not put them in charge of the functions. Let's like have them do like some element, horizontal element across the verticalwill function. So I think they're related in that way. Awesome. Soin the book you, as I mentioned in the Intro, you're tying alot of these things together. You're talking about there's a lot of talk,by the way, about current problems. I could just like as I wasreading it, I knew a bunch of you like, Yep, I knowthat person suffered that. Yep, I've been in that situation myself. Yep, she's definitely experienced that before. So you really break down all the problemsthat they think. You used the word fragmented rally there, and so you'retackling a lot of it. You have a lot of healthy and helpful proposalsin there. But Brandy, could you...

...just describe briefly, like what wasthe goal of writing the book and maybe even the process a little bit?I've you know, how did you all kind of work together on it andwhat was the motivation? Yeah, so it's funny, we never really setout set out to write a book. We do, you know, prepandemic we would do a quarterly management meeting where we'd get together, put ourheads together and really be able to do the things we need to do tomove the business forward. And you know, during one of those retreats we weretalking about all the problems that we talked about in the book and howwe have either seen accomplished or helped our clients accomplished fixing some of those problems, but kind of one off, so that that siloed approach and it wasvery much this what if we actually tackled the real problems and we really juststarted it, you know, kind of going down a rabbit hole of yeah, it look like this and we need to do this. And as wewere talking about it, it was like we're really on this something here,and Roley made the comment we should write a book and you know, weall kind of laughs because it's like who has time to write a book?But the more that we talked about it, the more that it became evident thatwe needed to write this book, that we had to write this bookas a means to really challenge the status quo and the current line of thinking. And so we very much in the way, you know, we're consultant, so the way that we do things is constantly looking at what's the problem? What does this look like if we solve the problem? So what's thefuture and what's in the way? How do we get there? And sothat was our process for how we organized the book. The beginning of thebook is about the problem and you know, all marketers should really see themselves inthat section, and then we go the other extreme in the second sectionof the book, is talking about what the future could look like if weactually solve the problems. And then at the end it was here's our fourstep process for how we get there, and not in the way that alot of books are where, you know, they tell you to do these grandiosethings and you're like yeah, that sounds great, but never going tohappen. We really try to lay out a path that goes about it inthe path of least resistance, you know, start with what you control build onit from there in order to get to the ultimate goal in the end, which is really a unified revenue team. I love it and one of thethings that you drew out a little bit and rally maybe addressed this briefly. You know, you talked about the deep structural problems, the ideas thatthe way that we're organized now in our businesses, like the structures, theway that we've organized people around the business, were essentially designed in an analog worldand we've come so far beyond it. Like I you know, there's inwe're going to move on to tech and a minute mic, which Ithink everyone was just like, Oh yeah, but I think it's easy to overlookthis dynamic. Rally, if you'd speak to it a little bit,of we're operating in businesses that weren't designed really even in some of our lifetimes, like at a deep structural level. Yeah, I mean if you thinkabout marketing, I used to say it was just billboards and commercials, youknow, and you know sales is shaking hands and maybe there were some supportbefore there was so much software you know. So I had to tell some ofthe other day I said software. They're like well, what we're SASSand I'm like, well, I know software is the first letter lettering anyway. But you know, you come from that. And then you have sortof you know, structural wealth of like people that continue, you know,it's all shifting to these you know, P and VC groups that control allthese companies and say well, but this is how we've done it. Sowe always have a head of who find ahead of sales, find ahead ofsupport all. This guy's really good at head of enablement, this person's reallygood at you know, had a customer success I like. So it's likethis long tail of familiarity. And when you have that, you know youwould never support the CFOs roll and do a bunch of roles that don't rollup anywhere and then wonder why, you know, finances aren't lining up.So it's the same kind of just this like comfort zone that everyone's in.And then throwing the fact that quite often when you put someone in the inthose leadership roles, you're putting them in like a pro athlete, like allright, I got three years, here's what you're going to paid on.You know you're in your out and that person and many people see that anddesign their career that way. We'll look. I'm going to go in. Sure, I'm going to hope to head a marketing's okay, because you knowI'm going to try to work with them, but you know, I got toget my stuff done. So, like, if they're in my way, I'm just going to go over them. And so there's all these sign ofstructural things that came from a time...

...where it made sense and there's justso much momentum to that that that's where we're talking about sex a minute ago, or someone said something's wrong here. So it's like throwing almost like throwingin a consultant, right, let's throwing someone to kind of like talk toeveryone, and maybe that or so I think that's that's the structural problems thatwe talked a lot about in the book, and different from different angles. Yeah, and we've definitely done the same thing with technology, Mike. Youknow, I'm just going to read a couple quotes out of the book.You might have too much technology, not enough or the wrong technology, andI think what you're just hinting at rally, like my parallel was too much technology. Is Like we have this little problem, let's just throw tech atit. But then another line from the book is you don't need it unlessyou actually need it. But then there's also this idea of you don't needthe best in class. Right. I think a lot of people want tofeel good about their decisions like Oh, this is best in class, butit doesn't actually have what you need, or maybe has a bunch of thingsthat you don't need. We talk about the frank and stack, and everybodythat listens to a show like this is probably familiar with Scott Scott brinkers,like ever expanding chart of Martech, and so, Mike, can you justwalk through some of the most common problems you see with technology and maybe givea little bit of guidance besides couple of pieces I already threw out? Yeah, absolutely. So I do think what rolly was talking about in terms of, you know, somebody coming in and too particular role, whether it besales or marketing or whatever else, they'll, you know, pull in whatever thetechnology makes sense for them and you know, when you amplify that bya number of departments, you have a customer experience. It doesn't make anysense because, well, of course it doesn't. You have different groups thatown talk to each other at by technology, sometimes the same technology, sometimes todo things that the technology is not really meant to do, because Iknow Bob and he's a cool guy, so I'm just going to get histechnology and it just it leads to tech you may not need. Tech thatis redundant with what somebody else has and text that may not align with theultimate goals of what does the customer actually want, like, what is thepurpose of the technology? How does it help? And that's sort of wherewe want to look at the whole of okay, let's maybe organize things aroundthe technology, then line up the departments behind that and have singular vision aroundall of that rather than five different visions that possibly look at different things,and then that that all trickles down right, like it all becomes really evident whenyou're on a website or store and you're looking at things and it's clearthat when you're talking to somebody else from a different department, they have noidea what you're interested in or how you got to them. So knowing havinga reason behind the technology is really, really critical. Don't just buy stuffbecause it is on a tend best list. Best in class is not necessarily bestfor you. We get this question relatively often, like what is bestpractice, and I'll often say, well, best practice doesn't necessarily mean it's agood practice for you. What are you trying to achieve? How areyou going to measure success? Let's find a technology about is maybe more nichespecific, so it may not be on a magic quadrant, but it wouldbe the magic that you need in order to make your business process flow.And looking at things that way is really a lot more critical than I thinkmost people realize. Yeah, I think it's been really easy to do thisright with some guidance. When you're starting cleaned you have another maybe piece ofadvice or or experience that you've had consistently with customers or with a particular clientof your own. You know, I think a lot of people feel like, well, Gosh, we've got all this technology, it's all hooked up. Maybe we're maybe using this to ten percent of its ability, were usingthis to forty percent of its ability, but we've got it all and it'swould be so painful to clean this up and to eliminate this thing and bringingthis like I just remember, you see, even in the marketing team at bombombyou know, we the switch from part out the hub spot to Marquettointermittently over this, you know, long period of time. Even those moveswere really challenging and painful. But I just think, I think a lotof people hear you and would read this book and say, yes, Iagree, but now I'm like, I've got twenty seven or thirty eight piecesof technology between sales, marketing, customer success. Can I afford to ripone of these, like a big one, out and plug a new one in? Like, how are you helping people manage a how are you helpingpeople manage a franken stack and move it more in this direction? Up,we have the right technology for what we're trying to do on behalf of ourcustomers. And, by the way, that are going to keep employees satisfied, in productive, which was another really key theme that you talked about interms of the tech, is even the team sentiment. Yeah, so,I mean this is kind of where planning is really important and following the data. So data and purpose. Those are...

...sort of a two pillars that Iwould use to underpin this this thought. You want to follow a data allthe way through, like from from one tech into another, but not evenfrom one technology to another, but more from customer experience beginning to the customerexperience, and how does the data flow along through that and what technology doesit touch and then what purpose does it serve? And evaluating that is goingto be critical to figuring out what role it plays. And the other thingyou said, because I do here is all the time, and I usedto want to solve this problem earlier on in my career and now I'm likethat's the wrong problem to solve, and that is we're only using this technologyto forty percent or sixty percent of its capability. And how can we getmore of US technology? It's like, how can you get more value outof what I'm paying to the spender? And that's for wrong question to ask, because forty percent maybe all you need, because if you're spend getting sixty percentor eighty percent, then you're putting more time to something that doesn't addany value, only to make the vendor happier and the technology more sticky,like the vendor wants you, the USIER, to their technology, to the forevery single possible use case because they're happy, they're oh, I agreemeath this technology and this client is using it and they're using every single feature. It's so awesome. But it may not be the best thing for yourbusiness. There may be another technology of it you already have that has abetter handoff point where certain things aren't done in that technology. And I'll justorder use an example of lead assignment in a marketing automation versus in the CRM. Well, you don't necessarily want to have lead assignment in a market automation. You want to have a lead assiment in the crm because that's where leadsgo. That makes more sense and there's always exceptions, etc. And youknow every business is different, but by and large voute would be sort ofa quote unquode best practice. So if have market automations to them has alead assignment process, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be using does justone example and brandy ortifas and say yeah, and I can actually like sort ofstep back from that to give more holistically. Something that you said thatI think is key is that you say, how can we afford to rip somethingout? And I would actually challenge you and say that you can't affordnot to if the tech is not working. So to get to the level ofunderstanding that Mike is talking about, generally what we will do is doa tech stack assessment and build out a road map because no, you can'twalk in and just be like Oh, this is crap, rip it allout like that doesn't work. That's it. That's it. I love that.Your years, the question is like is arena transition off these three thingsand implement these two over the next six months or fourteen months or yeah,generally I tell clients six to eighteen months, depending on how big the transitions are. But the first step is really assess what you have and how wellit can meet the business objective, how the data flows, how the datacould flow, because in some cases things can be improved, and I generallystart with improving the use of whatever's working. So if you've got ten things,these five maybe working over all. Our Road Map is going to startwith how do we better use those five in ways that make sense? Andthen, at the same time as we are pushing forward in that it iswhat do we do with these other five that aren't working? In some casesthey're unnecessary and you can scratch them all together like sometimes they're is tech thatis completely redundant and you can do away with it and not be hurt.And in other cases you do need to offboard that and on board something else. But then you get into how difficult is it to let it go?What is the contract structure look like? You know all of that Nitty Gritty, and that's why you do have to plan for it. And so whatwe will do is build out a road map that says here's you know,always focusing on the low hanging fruit. Where can we get the biggest impactof media it late, while working through some of these other things so thatit is not painful. And generally what we end up doing is shouldering theload of that work, because the other pushback is I still got a dayjob, like you know, I it's not my day jobs on board offboard technology in many cases, and so that's where we've been able to comein and help to figure out what needs to be done, build the planand in many cases, actually get it done. Awesome, really good ads. I would assume that this assessment and some of these decisions to figure outwhat's working, what isn't working. What's the right sequence of events, etc. Is in part a subsequent action to maybe beginning the organizational structure. SoI kind of want to go to this new C ro roll and feel freerally to see whatever you want about the CR row roll when done well,in two thousand and twenty one, two...

...thousand and twenty two and beyond,a couple quotes. The CRO is the head of all revenue, all capitalson all by the way, this cro leads the teams of technology that makerevenue happen. They don't just track it, they drive it. And also feelfree to speak to CMO TO CRO as opposed to the books not calledVP sales to crow and the books not called chief customer officer to Chief RevenueOfficers. See about a crow. So just speak to that role a littlebit. I think a lot of people see the title, they hear thetitle. I've had a couple of crows on the show and they do ita little bit differently and I assume that that's probably consistent. No CMO isthe same as another CMO, but speak to the role in the function alittle bit and maybe even from the perspective of a leader in an organization that'slistening to this episode, whether they're in sales, marketing, customer success.Maybe they're a president or a founder or a CEO and might have some influenceor even a direct charge to help figure this out and make a transition intheir own organization. Like we're some key elements of a CRO role today tomake it successful. Sure, I'll do my best with all that. Well, that's a lot of questions and what that's a bad habit of mine,but I just want to go to guide. You feel free to do whatever yourlife distance taking notes Ryers, which so I think way I'll start itout is just that you want to make things as simple as possible, butnot, but not any simpler than that, meaning what we talked about a littleearlier, which is the whole idea of revenue and the way that customersinteract with businesses, is really complex, like there's no way around that.You can't simplify it, you know, and I made a think so you, brandy or Mike, you might have hurt me on a podcast, say, comparing it to motor learning, because I that was my background with theOlympic volleyball teams. is being a motor learning, biomechanics Guy, and it'skind of like don't ever break things into parts when you're teaching somebody to dosomething, unless there's danger involved. Then you need to break it out sonobody gets hurt. But similar to hear like there's really no reason to keepcontinue to keep all these things separate. You know, success, support,marketing, sales. It is complex, but you don't need to keep themseparated and we know that now and that's kind of where we're going with thisnow. The role itself is complicated, and so cmotcrro that is the ideathat, of all the kind of revenue leaders had to support, had amarketing head of sales had a success, the most likely candidate would be aCMO who handles a whole lot of different kinds of roles. Their role essentiallyis fixing things that are coming at them in the wrong way from sales orfrom support or landing in the wrong way, and they in these other places.They have all this experience like trying to solve these issues. So that'swhere that kind of comes from and you know, it's still you have tohave the one thing that I would say is the lynchpin for the role ofSiro, which is you still do have to have what typically a head ofsales has, which is this very comfort, high comfort level with accountability to whereare we? You know, are we? Are we hitting our revenuegoals or not, and dealing with the wins and the losses, which isjust so common there and that is kind of probably the one differentiator there.But the fact that they can work across technologists and and handle all aspects ofthe digital marketing than and digital revenue kind of landscape, this is all morelikely to be a comfort level for the CML. So that's where that goesto. And I think quite quite often, and it's really easy to do,and you separate revenue into four different departments with four different leaders doing fourdifferent things, is you can't just look at functional knowledge and this person hasto be a really good leader of people. They have to understand that, evenwithin marketing, that there's, you know, very creative people, verytechnical people, very brand is driven people that you know are more about thedig some PR people and they all work very differently and having to do that, you know, your head of sales may just be used to one kindof sort of hard driving kind of team and they only know how to dealwith that, they would know how to manage creative people and not get frustratedwith them. Right. So you do need to have this broad as acro actually be a leader, and I think even in some cases that holdsome organizations back from putting that roll in. They're like, well, it's easierto find somebody that we know knows everything about marketing. So what iskeep it the same, versus someone who can really cover cover all all thefunctions. Yeah, really good. A lot of really interesting ideas in there. And for folks who are listening,...

...whether you've got it set to thirtyseconds back or sixty two back, sixty seconds fact, it's there for areason. I use it when I'm listening to podcast and I would do itif I just heard that pass. So I didn't miss any of the detailsin there because it's a really important thing to get right. Last question hereon structure. You know you definitely separate revaps. For my very clearly right. I think someone that doesn't it's going to be like a nonmodern. What'sthe opposite of modern? Antiquated? I guess an antiquated approach would be tolike lump all that tech together. Talk a little bit about where revops reportsrelative to a crow. Does that also fall under there or do you putyour like a separate obviously our head of vaps maybe that rolls up to thecrow. Just talks one more layer there specifically to that technical side of itin the revaps function. Yeah, so it so. It would need tobe part of a revenue team. So report up to the crow. Therewas of course need to be, you know, director of revops or somethingalong those lines that would report through a crow, but it definitely has tobe a separate entity from it. And really it just the demands of thetwo different groups are really kind of like on the opposite sides. Like youhave the front office, like the front side of a business, that needsto be agile, has to respond to customer needs fast, and then youhave the organization structure where you have to be slow and methodical because the organizationhas to function and there's reporting and there's like big structural things happening where youknow if they don't happen, the opera of the organization doesn't run. Butthat has nothing to do with a customer experience. And so it's really differentschools of thought, different personalities even that would make up these teams. Soyou technical people on both sides and they both have to work together in termsof revops and I both have to have, you know, certain level of rulesthat they follow in terms of compliance and data security and all of that, but just from different perspectives and ultimately all of these functions. They area customers for for revops and all the REFTECH that revops manages. Their thinkingabout that. They're making sure all the technology makes sense and that is theirmandate and right now there isn't anybody with that mandate who is looking at allthat holistically in terms of the technology that customers attract with from mental end.Yeah, really good caution for folks listening. There are several illustrations in the bookthat start with kind of like the antiquated model and then talk about thisfront of House, back of House, you know, the customer facing inthe customer touch points, and then what you know is you just describe theirmic what's going on inside the organization just to keep the whole thing moving,even if it hasn't touched the customer. And so this is all illustrated reallynicely in the book. Some I'm going to do now. I don't knowthis guy going to be a speed round, but it's kind of speed round inspired. I'm just going to read one quote, like a line from thebook and then direct it to one of you, and Michae I'll start withyou on this one. This one's from page one hundred and seven. It'sin those key moments of truth, when things go wrong, where people forma relationship with your brand. Yeah, so that's actually in the future sectionof a book where we talked about a good experience set that we had andthat was when someone went wrong. And you know, we outlined how talkingto a Chad bought was a painless experience that resolve a problem quickly and justgave us few options to move on to a resolution at our choosing. Andit is so easy to screw up. Yeah, it's like something's wrong.First a question is, who do I talk to? How do I findit? I don't know if anyone's been in the situation where you're trying tofigure out who do I call or who do I email and you can't findit. You just cannot find that contact information because certain companies will hide that. They don't want you to contact them, and that frustration is what you feeland you associate the frustration with for brand, because they clearly didn't careenough about how you felt in that moment. And you know, maybe that wasa business decision whatever, but those are key moments where trains can goreally right or really wrong, and it just requires far thought and plan.Yeah, really good. We talk about moments that matter very often here,and specifically to what you just offered their mic. Did that a emotional resonancethat these moments leave with us is what it drives our memory and it drivesour motivation as human beings, and so we cannot underplay the consequences of that, good or bad brandy. This one's for you, from from section customers. Success is defined as the customers desired outcome plus the customers desired experience.I love this because there's some kind of...

...background debate about outcome versus experience.I don't think you can peel them apart, and really you don't either, andyou put them together in this definition of customer success. So share afew thoughts on customer success as customers desired outcome plus customers desired experience. Yes, so this is really how we measure ourselves internally. How I recommend toour clients that they measure their success with their customers. So number one iswhat does the customer want to accomplish like? Doesn't matter what you want them todo or it Mikes, example, how what percentage of your software youwant them to use? Like it is what do they want to accomplish like? What is success look like for them? The desired outcome, and you haveto get that done if nothing else. And then the other piece of itis number two, which is what is their desired experience. And customers, you know, and people work very differently. You know, if youjust think about a really basic shopping experience, you know we all have to shoppingin one former another, old school, where we used to have to gointo a mall. Some people, like myself, like to wander aroundstores alone for as long as it takes to figure out what they need,and if I need something, I will come to you. That is good. That is my desired experience. That's what I consider good customer service.Is leaving me alone, whereas other people, like my mom, love for thesalesperson to come and talk and find out what she's shopping for and tomake suggestions, and that's what she considers a good experience. So if someonewere to treat me the way that she likes to be treated, I'm annoyedand don't want to go to that store anymore, whereas if someone treated herlike I want to be treated, she'd consider them rude. And so thedesired outcome is to buy something. We both would accomplish that, but ourdesired experience is different and that's what we especially a be to be have toreally understand, is that not all organizations, not even all individuals that we workwith within the organizations, want to interact with a brand in the sameway, and so we as marketers and really across the revenue team, haveto understand that and be able to not only accomplish the goal, but tointeract in a way that actually appeals to them. He has so much goodstuff in there and, by the way, I'm with you, I go browsingface on and if you can't with my just browsing face, I'm goingto have to tell you when the bad but it's funny because that can changelike kind of on a diamonds like all of a sudden. I've like somethingclicks for me. I actually have a couple of follow up questions and Iwant someone now, and that might happen digitally, might happen in person.Really good take there. I'm going to stay with you, Brandy, andgive you another line from page two, hundred and five, which is acommon error at this point is hiring or promoting a strictly technical person into thisrole. And what we're talking about here's the REVOPS leader. So a commonerror at this point is hiring or promoting a strictly technical person into this rolewho has zero strategy in their bones. Now, we did hint at thisa little bit, but I'd love like another straight go with this, becausethis is now about the revops leader. Mike suggested maybe a director of reboffsor someone similar brand. You speak to that a little bit. Not everyperson is strategic and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like we all haveour strengths and weaknesses, and you can be the most technologically savva person,no, every tech inside and out, and not be a great candidate tolead revenue operations, because the person that is leading the revops function is goingto have to be the right hand to the crow. They're going to haveto be strategic and understanding how the technology across all these departments can work togetherto accomplish the business goals and to create the various desired customer experiences, andso that really does take a special person. Like I would take someone with thestrategic and that broad view who is only mildly technical over someone highly technicalwho doesn't have a strategic bone in their body. Like they just very muchare different people with different career paths. Neither is more valuable than the other, they are just different and serve different purposes. Gay like that caution todefault towards the strategy side than the technical side. Is Funny. Before wehit record, Roley and I, we both have kind of Chicago and thefront range of Colorado and common we were talking about the pros and cons ofeach and I guess we've both kind of opted for the front range of therocky mountains. But this idea that no candidate for this role is going tobe perfect. But I appreciate your caution, Brandy, of if we have tomake a decision one way or the other, let's go toward that strategyside for the benefit of the team, because you can always hire more technicalpeople in there, related but slightly colored...

...differently. Raleigh, this person shouldbe respected as a leader and not just as a technologist. Talk about maybesussing out some of the leadership qualities in addition to I think obviously most leadersare strategic at some level, and effectively so. But it's there any additionalcolor there? Yeah, instead of vaguely starting out vague, I'll start alittle more specific and just say you could replace for lots of roles. Youcould replace technologist with salesperson or marketing person, and it's it's it's this misconception thatplays out. Sometimes we're talking about hiring for the role, sometimes we'retalking about promoting to the role. And then my least favorite is the playercoach that I see as job posts all the time for in marketing, arevenue functions and it's like, okay, so you're not you're going to getone, let's just fit this way in. Scientifically, not my opinion or anecdotal. Usually highly technical people are not great leaders and that the one usuallytrumps the other. And so every time I see a super technical person likethe head of Microsoft or these people that are there. I know that they'relike UNICORNS. So it's just not likely and it does just how humans kindof come along is your you just get role. You your brain is wireda certain way. You're very unique, but it's it's generally that that direction. So similarly to what brand he's already said, you know, I wouldeven be heavier with what she said around with lean towards the strategic I'd belike, don't ever ever hire a super technical person as head of revops orbecause the unless you just found the future CEO Microsoft, because the chances ofthat person actually being able to like be a good developer of people, youknow, understand how different functions work and when to put their their hands intosomething and when to back off. Like those are more leadership kind of innatetalents. They're not things you're they're going to learn and they rarely go rightalong with someone who's an amazing technologist, just rarely. Yeah, I appreciatethat call against the the player coach situation to I feel like that should beinterim and on a very fixed timeline, only absolutely as needed. I thinkthat's pretty unfair to as so I'll turn this into a question that anyone canaddress. I feel like there's enough as we're all trying. Like I cameout of marketing, but I do a lot more work today with my salesteam members and customer success team members than I was five years ago and certainlyeight years ago, and so we're all trying to build more empathy and understanding, not just of our team members and how we can serve them better andhow what we can actually ask for an expect of from them, as weall try to integrate toward a revenue outcome which is really a customer success outcome, because the revenue is a consequence of customers succeeding. And we also aretrying to understand the customer differently too. I think that's one of the likein a siload situation, in a BDR sees a customer a lot differently thana CSMC's a customer, which is a lot differently than an AEC's a customer, just because the way that they've interacted historically. And so I think there'senough that we're trying to do in the different hats, even within the samerole, that to ask someone to be the player coach at the Save Timeis just it's just not fair to the organization. I don't really think it'sprobably best for success to say don't want to take a swing at any ofthose things I just said, as in say I'll make one small point,because what you're hitting on is what a lot of companies are doing today andmaking a big mistake. Like it seems like OPS, so marketing up salesops. Now Rev ops was almost you know, kind of existed, butnobody talked about it, nobody cared about it, and then over the lastI'd say two or three years, all of a sudden it's like everyone hasfigured out the importance of the ops function and now everyone is really, youknow, companies are kind of clamoring to really get it right. And whatwe are seeing even, as you know, we're constantly recruiting, so I'm alwayslooking at, you know, job postings for other types of roles andI see these roles where they are merging together, like manage the team,do this, do that, and it's like they're trying to take what shouldbe whole teams of people that serve different functions and merge it into one job, and it just it doesn't work that way. You know, those Revops. People don't have time to think when they're constantly just, you know, it's like an octopus, like just trying to get their hands and everything, and then they become ineffective and the...

...organizations like, well, why is? You know, why aren't we moving forward? Why is our customer experiencestill crappy? You know why this, why that? And so it isimportant for organizations to really think about the REV ops function and the different hatsas separate roles, as opposed to trying to have someone who's doing it all, because one person trying to do it all is sometimes worse than not havinganyone focusing on it. Yeah, I love it. I'll add one questionto that. Why can't we keep anyone in this role? That's a loadedquestion. Yeah, totally. Just that. You know the caution, whether you'rewhether you're writing the scorecard of the job description or whether you're looking forwork yourself, keep in mind that, either as a creator or someone readingit, this should not be a grab bag wish list of all the thingswe wish we could get in this magical person that doesn't exist. And ifwe can get some of the checks, enough of the boxes, they're stillset up for failure. Last one in this kind of quote round, andthis one I'll gives you rally and I this is I think this one forlast because it's such a big idea and I think there's potential here to knockdown some of the things that we just assume are true. It's I'll justwith that. I'll just say the quote, which is from page to hundred thirtynine. Growth is not always healthy at the cellular level. Uncontrolled growthis cancer. Yeah, I think it's even. We can even, youknow, keep picking on Sass companies here just to say that, you know, they find it not just, you know, within their top leadership,but anyone kind of coming into rolls in those firms as yeah, like thisis how it works. Like part of SASS is to grow uncontrollably and withouta lot of you know, worry, because at some point, after we'velost a lot of money, somebody will buy us and then, you know, the investors will collect, you know, some profit from the investment they've madeover the last three, four five years. Right. And you know, my example in the book was a volleyball coach who was abusing as playersand they were really, really successful, but as soon as he's out,that team fell apart. Those girls probably don't ever play that sport anymore,you know. So it's like that's not healthy, that's not good. Iguess it was good on the surface for a few years, right, butso that's kind of kind of the point is when Brandy and Mike and Iare looking at like ways to grow and should we turn this knob and shouldwe pull this lever? Like a lot know what we're doing is, isthat sustainable? Is that a short term is this healthy for everyone? Dothis may still make this the kind of place that we want to be workingfor and other people want to work for. So we could grow really, reallyfast if we wanted to. That's not that hard. What's really hardis could do it in a healthy, sustainable way. So good, thankyou for that. It's like, obviously health. He's been used multiple timesalready, but this just what comes to mind. I'm thinking of a friendof mine who is in a role. He was really excited about it.Great performer, Really Smart Guy, constantly investing in his own personal and professionalgrowth, like the kind of person we would all like to have on ourteam. And he was in this organization and within a year. He movedout because he would hit plan and exceed it by ten or fifteen percent.In his role like that, he was giving more than what the organization wasasking. As soon as he did it was like, oh well, actually, we're move the goal post. Move the goal post, move the goalpost. It was just growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. Andyour point is, is this the kind of place I can worked?Is this the kind of place I want to work, as this the kindof place where I can feel successful? It's like the dude was making thegoal line over and over and over again and they all they would do isjust keep moving it away and it's like toward what end, you know,and so it that. That certainly is an unhealthy dynamic. For folks whoare listening. If you have enjoyed this so far, I've got two episodesin a reference them for different reasons. First Episode One hundred and twenty seven, with Darryl Praylee, C X Strategies for Cros. We talked to darrelabout how he is executing the crow role and how he's integrating hit the threeteams in his organization. It's a little bit different structurally than even some ofwhat we talked about today. So Darrell prayl Cro at Vanilla soft and thena little bit earlier on episode one hundred and Twenty One, this is oneof those two guests on the same show, episodes, Christy or Nellis and SteveCox at Cisco. We call that one. Three ways to elevate xfrom the world's best workplace and a word that they earned a couple years ina row, and certainly building healthy environments where people can do their best workand operate in sincere spirit of service on behalf of customers and for better customerexperiences. Those two are definitely on the front edge of that in a very, very large organization. So, Raley, Mike Brandy, I guess I'll directthese in order. Mike, I'm...

...going to give you two opportunities here. The first is to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact onyour life or your career, and then also to give a nod or ashout out to a company or brand that you personally appreciate for the experience thatthey deliver for you as a customer, and that can be anything, bythe way. We can get out of the bounds of like traditional business andget into your favorite shoes if that's what you prefer to do. Anyone orany company come to mind for you? Yeah, I mean apple is sortof a an organization that I'm a big fan of. You know, Iappreciate the product that they create and the thoughtness that they thoughtfulness that they putinto the integration of their technology across multiple technologies because, like a lot ofpeople will be apple fan boys and that's fine, but you know, Iwasn't an apple I used to be on a windows person. Then they usedto use a blackberry, but through the experience that they created in the seamlessnessof connectivity and transition from one device to another, it just made it reallyeasy. And you know, if I have to pick one, one organizationthat does that every day in my life, because I have so many other productI would have to pick them. And in terms of how did youphrase the first question, in terms of impact on my career, it's hada positive impact on your life for your career? Well, I mean Ikind of want to call out my co offer see here, brand and rally, because I've learned so much from both of them. been working with brandylonger and rally, but still many years and you know they both teach meso much all the time. So, you know, thank you, guys. Always appreciate your support. Awesome. I'm glad you could both be herefor that. It's so. It's so I get so many nice responses likeyours, Mike, but you know, even when I tagged the other personon social media I might not even see it. So I'm glad they couldboth be here for that rally. How about you, I guess. Forthe person, I'll say that I had a mentor for about six years namedJohn Wood, and he had no real great reason to be my mentors,so he was kind of doing he must have thought I was worth the time. But I think a lot of the ways that I learned about being directand talking to other leaders. You know, we were I was in a roleof advising CEOS and others, and he taught me kind of the simplicityof having those conversations and supported me for a long time. Had Long breakdown. How did that call go? Let's talk through it. How did thatmeaning go? Let's talk through it. So I think that John Probably madethe biggest impact on what you see right now in camera is different because ofhim. I think I have to for brand. I kind of have togive Oakley my props here, because I've been wearing Oakley since I was eighteenyears old and I never wear anything else, and so like that's a long Ialways think of that as like that's got to be my longest brand commitmentand for me it's just like a consistent I don't feel like it's changed andall this time and it's still very relevant and all my stuff I would considerlike so high quality. So that's kind of my brand out I'll stick outthere. Awesome. Same for you, Brandy. All Right, so myI've had time to think about this. I'm ready. My person would beJeff Batiste. He was a former manager when I worked at aid and heis probably the the person that I would credit with helping me to bring outmy authentic me and at work and to lean into my leadership qualities. Youknow, being a woman in business, being a black woman in business there, you know, comes with its own challenges and he was the one thatnudged, or in some cases pushed me to really like come out of myshell, and that's really the role that I would say my career trajectory changedso he's definitely a person that I thank for helping me to become who Iam as a professional woman today. In terms of my brand, it's gotto be Delta Airlines. Everybody knows that I live and breathe Delta and it'smainly, I mean it truly is, because of their customer experience. Likemy loyalty to Delta, I feel is rewarded and I, you know,feel like they are solid in an industry where, you know generally there's notthe greatest customer service and that they really do try and make a good youknow, make all of their passengers, and especially their frequent flyers, havea good experience and to actually, you know, give back in that experience. So Delta Airlines would be the brand...

...that I admire. Their customer experienceawesome. Thank you for that round. Really appreciated a couple of repeat onesthere. We've definitely heard apple and we've definitely heard Delta. I haven't heardOakley, but I have heard some some other brands that are a little bitsimilar. Not necessarily I wear but just like associated low oakly with kind ofa lifestyle type of a brand in a way, and it's cool to hearfrom a longtime customer that they have stayed on the edge of relevance for severalyears. For folks who've enjoyed this conversation, and anyone can take this one.If people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more aboutCmo to crow or they even want to go get a copy of it, it's they want to learn more about Tegrida and learn more about the workthat you do. We're some places that someone listening to this episode should goto bring it more to life. I can take that one. So,in order to get the book, you can go to the book rep website, which is revenue takeovercom, and it is pretty much sold wherever books aresold online. To learn more about Tagrida, you can visit US online, whichis Tegriacom, and all three of us are very active on Linkedin,so feel free to shoot us a note if you want to connect. Definitelylet us know that you heard us here so that we know how you foundus. But yeah, that's how you can reach to awesome rally. BrandyMike, Thank you so much for spending this time with all of us.Love the work that you are all up to. Someone needed. I agreesomeone needed to write this book, someone needed to cast this vision, andI appreciate you spund of this time to kind of bring some of the ideasoff the page for me and for listeners. Thank you for having for having us. One of the most impactful things you can do to improve customer experienceand employee experience is to include some video messages in your daily digital communication.Explain things more clearly, convey the writ emotion and tone, safe time bytalking instead of typing, prevent those unnecessary meetings. There are so many benefitsto using simple videos and screen recordings, and bombomb makes it easy in email, linkedin or slack messages from Gmail Outlook, sales force outreach or Zen desk.Learn how Bombom can help you and your team with clear communication, humanconnection and higher conversion. Visit Bombombcom today. Thanks for listening to the customer experiencepodcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today isto create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. SLASH PODCASTS.

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