The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 6 months ago

167. Essential Traits of the Next Generation CRO with Brandi Starr, Rolly Keenan, Mike Geller

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s no reason to keep them separate anymore: success, support, marketing, and sales. Their common goal is revenue, so their common leader should be the CRO. When we’re talking about the next generation of CROs, a Chief Marketing Officer is likely the best candidate because they’re already doing the bulk of that work.  

In this episode, I interview the authors of CMO to CRO: The Revenue Takeover by the Next Generation Executive, Tegrita’s COO Brandi Starr, CRO Rolly Keenan, and President & CTO Mike Geller. We talk a bout why CMOs make such good CROs and how to create a CRO function.  

Join us as we discuss:

  • Why the rise of the CRO is vital to good CX
  • Why Tegrita created a CRO role and wrote a book about it
  • How to tame your Frankenstack
  • What CMOs can do to shift into CROs
  • Where to position RevOps with respect to the CRO function  

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CMOTCRO that is the idea that, of all the kind of revenue leaders had to support, had a marketing had of sales had a success, the most likely candidate would be a CMO. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. We've got a first for you today here on the customer experience podcast. Twice before we've hosted two guests at the same time, but today we're hosting three guests on one episode, the Chief Operating Officer, the chief Revenue Officer and the President and chief technology officer at Tegrida, a Toronto based modern marketing and strategy consulting firm. These three are also the CO authors of a book that I really enjoyed and definitely recommend. It's called CMO to crow the revenue takeover by the next generation executive. Their book has a clear vision for better customer experience. A proper revops function and a modern revenue team. These, of course, are the themes will be talking about today. Brandy Star, lly Keenan and Mike Geller, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks, yeah, this can be really fun. I think I'm going to keep it all on the rails. Brandy was kind enough to work with me on making sure that I had a direction to go with each of these questions, so I can direct the conversation a little bit, but feel free to jump in any time with anything you'd like to add. And we'll start here with you three, who are I start with everyone, which is customer experience. Brandy, when I say customer experience, what does that mean to you? Customer experience really is every interaction that your customers and prospects have with your brand, and so that's not just the website or, if you are B Toc, your in person environment. It is literally end to end, from hello, my name is the first time that they're introduced to you on through to them hopefully being happy long term customers. Very good, a question for you. Look, I've always wondered this. I feel like, from my perspective, the rise of CX and popular business conversation and popular business culture is parallel with the rise of crow as a way to organize around this idea. And in the book you write customer experience is a key lever to revenue growth. Does anyone want to make an observation about the relationship between CX and Cro in terms of the fact that we're all talking about these things now in a way that we weren't maybe five years ago? I think, and maybe everyone's paused to want me to answer this, got's it the row. I mean, I would say that the way I see that, the way you're telling the example or the are describing it, is that there's there's truth to what is started, what was starting to happen where experience, customer experiences, are getting really fragmented and poor, and so it was this kind of the thing that kind of happens in business in a lot of ways, where people are trying things because there's a threat of truth to what they're doing. They're making the wrong move, but there's some good things in that move that you know are this not all bad, and I think that's CX, like hey, I don't know why, but let's throw like kind of this layer across a bunch of functions called CX or they try to fix things that are disconnected and they're you know, let's try, let's try to hold them accountable for the overall experience, even though each function is really operating independently. And so I think it was like that attempt. And then the crow similarly like hey, let's get somebody who kind of owns all of it, but let's not put them in charge of the functions. Let's like have them do like some element, horizontal element across the vertical will function. So I think they're related in that way. Awesome. So in the book you, as I mentioned in the Intro, you're tying a lot of these things together. You're talking about there's a lot of talk, by the way, about current problems. I could just like as I was reading it, I knew a bunch of you like, Yep, I know that person suffered that. Yep, I've been in that situation myself. Yep, she's definitely experienced that before. So you really break down all the problems that they think. You used the word fragmented rally there, and so you're tackling a lot of it. You have a lot of healthy and helpful proposals in there. But Brandy, could you...

...just describe briefly, like what was the goal of writing the book and maybe even the process a little bit? I've you know, how did you all kind of work together on it and what was the motivation? Yeah, so it's funny, we never really set out set out to write a book. We do, you know, pre pandemic we would do a quarterly management meeting where we'd get together, put our heads together and really be able to do the things we need to do to move the business forward. And you know, during one of those retreats we were talking about all the problems that we talked about in the book and how we have either seen accomplished or helped our clients accomplished fixing some of those problems, but kind of one off, so that that siloed approach and it was very much this what if we actually tackled the real problems and we really just started it, you know, kind of going down a rabbit hole of yeah, it look like this and we need to do this. And as we were talking about it, it was like we're really on this something here, and Roley made the comment we should write a book and you know, we all kind of laughs because it's like who has time to write a book? But the more that we talked about it, the more that it became evident that we needed to write this book, that we had to write this book as a means to really challenge the status quo and the current line of thinking. And so we very much in the way, you know, we're consultant, so the way that we do things is constantly looking at what's the problem? What does this look like if we solve the problem? So what's the future and what's in the way? How do we get there? And so that was our process for how we organized the book. The beginning of the book is about the problem and you know, all marketers should really see themselves in that section, and then we go the other extreme in the second section of the book, is talking about what the future could look like if we actually solve the problems. And then at the end it was here's our four step process for how we get there, and not in the way that a lot of books are where, you know, they tell you to do these grandiose things and you're like yeah, that sounds great, but never going to happen. We really try to lay out a path that goes about it in the path of least resistance, you know, start with what you control build on it from there in order to get to the ultimate goal in the end, which is really a unified revenue team. I love it and one of the things that you drew out a little bit and rally maybe addressed this briefly. You know, you talked about the deep structural problems, the ideas that the way that we're organized now in our businesses, like the structures, the way that we've organized people around the business, were essentially designed in an analog world and we've come so far beyond it. Like I you know, there's in we're going to move on to tech and a minute mic, which I think everyone was just like, Oh yeah, but I think it's easy to overlook this dynamic. Rally, if you'd speak to it a little bit, of we're operating in businesses that weren't designed really even in some of our lifetimes, like at a deep structural level. Yeah, I mean if you think about marketing, I used to say it was just billboards and commercials, you know, and you know sales is shaking hands and maybe there were some support before there was so much software you know. So I had to tell some of the other day I said software. They're like well, what we're SASS and I'm like, well, I know software is the first letter lettering anyway. But you know, you come from that. And then you have sort of you know, structural wealth of like people that continue, you know, it's all shifting to these you know, P and VC groups that control all these companies and say well, but this is how we've done it. So we always have a head of who find ahead of sales, find ahead of support all. This guy's really good at head of enablement, this person's really good at you know, had a customer success I like. So it's like this long tail of familiarity. And when you have that, you know you would never support the CFOs roll and do a bunch of roles that don't roll up anywhere and then wonder why, you know, finances aren't lining up. So it's the same kind of just this like comfort zone that everyone's in. And then throwing the fact that quite often when you put someone in the in those leadership roles, you're putting them in like a pro athlete, like all right, I got three years, here's what you're going to paid on. You know you're in your out and that person and many people see that and design their career that way. We'll look. I'm going to go in. Sure, I'm going to hope to head a marketing's okay, because you know I'm going to try to work with them, but you know, I got to get my stuff done. So, like, if they're in my way, I'm just going to go over them. And so there's all these sign of structural things that came from a time...

...where it made sense and there's just so much momentum to that that that's where we're talking about sex a minute ago, or someone said something's wrong here. So it's like throwing almost like throwing in a consultant, right, let's throwing someone to kind of like talk to everyone, and maybe that or so I think that's that's the structural problems that we talked a lot about in the book, and different from different angles. Yeah, and we've definitely done the same thing with technology, Mike. You know, I'm just going to read a couple quotes out of the book. You might have too much technology, not enough or the wrong technology, and I think what you're just hinting at rally, like my parallel was too much technology. Is Like we have this little problem, let's just throw tech at it. But then another line from the book is you don't need it unless you actually need it. But then there's also this idea of you don't need the best in class. Right. I think a lot of people want to feel good about their decisions like Oh, this is best in class, but it doesn't actually have what you need, or maybe has a bunch of things that you don't need. We talk about the frank and stack, and everybody that listens to a show like this is probably familiar with Scott Scott brinkers, like ever expanding chart of Martech, and so, Mike, can you just walk through some of the most common problems you see with technology and maybe give a little bit of guidance besides couple of pieces I already threw out? Yeah, absolutely. So I do think what rolly was talking about in terms of, you know, somebody coming in and too particular role, whether it be sales or marketing or whatever else, they'll, you know, pull in whatever the technology makes sense for them and you know, when you amplify that by a number of departments, you have a customer experience. It doesn't make any sense because, well, of course it doesn't. You have different groups that own talk to each other at by technology, sometimes the same technology, sometimes to do things that the technology is not really meant to do, because I know Bob and he's a cool guy, so I'm just going to get his technology and it just it leads to tech you may not need. Tech that is redundant with what somebody else has and text that may not align with the ultimate goals of what does the customer actually want, like, what is the purpose of the technology? How does it help? And that's sort of where we want to look at the whole of okay, let's maybe organize things around the technology, then line up the departments behind that and have singular vision around all of that rather than five different visions that possibly look at different things, and then that that all trickles down right, like it all becomes really evident when you're on a website or store and you're looking at things and it's clear that when you're talking to somebody else from a different department, they have no idea what you're interested in or how you got to them. So knowing having a reason behind the technology is really, really critical. Don't just buy stuff because it is on a tend best list. Best in class is not necessarily best for you. We get this question relatively often, like what is best practice, and I'll often say, well, best practice doesn't necessarily mean it's a good practice for you. What are you trying to achieve? How are you going to measure success? Let's find a technology about is maybe more niche specific, so it may not be on a magic quadrant, but it would be the magic that you need in order to make your business process flow. And looking at things that way is really a lot more critical than I think most people realize. Yeah, I think it's been really easy to do this right with some guidance. When you're starting cleaned you have another maybe piece of advice or or experience that you've had consistently with customers or with a particular client of your own. You know, I think a lot of people feel like, well, Gosh, we've got all this technology, it's all hooked up. Maybe we're maybe using this to ten percent of its ability, were using this to forty percent of its ability, but we've got it all and it's would be so painful to clean this up and to eliminate this thing and bringing this like I just remember, you see, even in the marketing team at bombomb you know, we the switch from part out the hub spot to Marquetto intermittently over this, you know, long period of time. Even those moves were really challenging and painful. But I just think, I think a lot of people hear you and would read this book and say, yes, I agree, but now I'm like, I've got twenty seven or thirty eight pieces of technology between sales, marketing, customer success. Can I afford to rip one of these, like a big one, out and plug a new one in? Like, how are you helping people manage a how are you helping people manage a franken stack and move it more in this direction? Up, we have the right technology for what we're trying to do on behalf of our customers. And, by the way, that are going to keep employees satisfied, in productive, which was another really key theme that you talked about in terms of the tech, is even the team sentiment. Yeah, so, I mean this is kind of where planning is really important and following the data. So data and purpose. Those are...

...sort of a two pillars that I would use to underpin this this thought. You want to follow a data all the way through, like from from one tech into another, but not even from one technology to another, but more from customer experience beginning to the customer experience, and how does the data flow along through that and what technology does it touch and then what purpose does it serve? And evaluating that is going to be critical to figuring out what role it plays. And the other thing you said, because I do here is all the time, and I used to want to solve this problem earlier on in my career and now I'm like that's the wrong problem to solve, and that is we're only using this technology to forty percent or sixty percent of its capability. And how can we get more of US technology? It's like, how can you get more value out of what I'm paying to the spender? And that's for wrong question to ask, because forty percent maybe all you need, because if you're spend getting sixty percent or eighty percent, then you're putting more time to something that doesn't add any value, only to make the vendor happier and the technology more sticky, like the vendor wants you, the USIER, to their technology, to the for every single possible use case because they're happy, they're oh, I agree meath this technology and this client is using it and they're using every single feature. It's so awesome. But it may not be the best thing for your business. There may be another technology of it you already have that has a better handoff point where certain things aren't done in that technology. And I'll just order use an example of lead assignment in a marketing automation versus in the CRM. Well, you don't necessarily want to have lead assignment in a market automation. You want to have a lead assiment in the crm because that's where leads go. That makes more sense and there's always exceptions, etc. And you know every business is different, but by and large voute would be sort of a quote unquode best practice. So if have market automations to them has a lead assignment process, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be using does just one example and brandy ortifas and say yeah, and I can actually like sort of step back from that to give more holistically. Something that you said that I think is key is that you say, how can we afford to rip something out? And I would actually challenge you and say that you can't afford not to if the tech is not working. So to get to the level of understanding that Mike is talking about, generally what we will do is do a tech stack assessment and build out a road map because no, you can't walk in and just be like Oh, this is crap, rip it all out like that doesn't work. That's it. That's it. I love that. Your years, the question is like is arena transition off these three things and implement these two over the next six months or fourteen months or yeah, generally I tell clients six to eighteen months, depending on how big the transitions are. But the first step is really assess what you have and how well it can meet the business objective, how the data flows, how the data could flow, because in some cases things can be improved, and I generally start with improving the use of whatever's working. So if you've got ten things, these five maybe working over all. Our Road Map is going to start with how do we better use those five in ways that make sense? And then, at the same time as we are pushing forward in that it is what do we do with these other five that aren't working? In some cases they're unnecessary and you can scratch them all together like sometimes they're is tech that is completely redundant and you can do away with it and not be hurt. And in other cases you do need to offboard that and on board something else. But then you get into how difficult is it to let it go? What is the contract structure look like? You know all of that Nitty Gritty, and that's why you do have to plan for it. And so what we will do is build out a road map that says here's you know, always focusing on the low hanging fruit. Where can we get the biggest impact of media it late, while working through some of these other things so that it is not painful. And generally what we end up doing is shouldering the load of that work, because the other pushback is I still got a day job, like you know, I it's not my day jobs on board off board technology in many cases, and so that's where we've been able to come in and help to figure out what needs to be done, build the plan and in many cases, actually get it done. Awesome, really good ads. I would assume that this assessment and some of these decisions to figure out what's working, what isn't working. What's the right sequence of events, etc. Is in part a subsequent action to maybe beginning the organizational structure. So I kind of want to go to this new C ro roll and feel free rally to see whatever you want about the CR row roll when done well, in two thousand and twenty one, two...

...thousand and twenty two and beyond, a couple quotes. The CRO is the head of all revenue, all capitals on all by the way, this cro leads the teams of technology that make revenue happen. They don't just track it, they drive it. And also feel free to speak to CMO TO CRO as opposed to the books not called VP sales to crow and the books not called chief customer officer to Chief Revenue Officers. See about a crow. So just speak to that role a little bit. I think a lot of people see the title, they hear the title. I've had a couple of crows on the show and they do it a little bit differently and I assume that that's probably consistent. No CMO is the same as another CMO, but speak to the role in the function a little bit and maybe even from the perspective of a leader in an organization that's listening to this episode, whether they're in sales, marketing, customer success. Maybe they're a president or a founder or a CEO and might have some influence or even a direct charge to help figure this out and make a transition in their own organization. Like we're some key elements of a CRO role today to make it successful. Sure, I'll do my best with all that. Well, that's a lot of questions and what that's a bad habit of mine, but I just want to go to guide. You feel free to do whatever your life distance taking notes Ryers, which so I think way I'll start it out is just that you want to make things as simple as possible, but not, but not any simpler than that, meaning what we talked about a little earlier, which is the whole idea of revenue and the way that customers interact with businesses, is really complex, like there's no way around that. You can't simplify it, you know, and I made a think so you, brandy or Mike, you might have hurt me on a podcast, say, comparing it to motor learning, because I that was my background with the Olympic volleyball teams. is being a motor learning, biomechanics Guy, and it's kind of like don't ever break things into parts when you're teaching somebody to do something, unless there's danger involved. Then you need to break it out so nobody gets hurt. But similar to hear like there's really no reason to keep continue to keep all these things separate. You know, success, support, marketing, sales. It is complex, but you don't need to keep them separated and we know that now and that's kind of where we're going with this now. The role itself is complicated, and so cmotcrro that is the idea that, of all the kind of revenue leaders had to support, had a marketing head of sales had a success, the most likely candidate would be a CMO who handles a whole lot of different kinds of roles. Their role essentially is fixing things that are coming at them in the wrong way from sales or from support or landing in the wrong way, and they in these other places. They have all this experience like trying to solve these issues. So that's where that kind of comes from and you know, it's still you have to have the one thing that I would say is the lynchpin for the role of Siro, which is you still do have to have what typically a head of sales has, which is this very comfort, high comfort level with accountability to where are we? You know, are we? Are we hitting our revenue goals or not, and dealing with the wins and the losses, which is just so common there and that is kind of probably the one differentiator there. But the fact that they can work across technologists and and handle all aspects of the digital marketing than and digital revenue kind of landscape, this is all more likely to be a comfort level for the CML. So that's where that goes to. And I think quite quite often, and it's really easy to do, and you separate revenue into four different departments with four different leaders doing four different things, is you can't just look at functional knowledge and this person has to be a really good leader of people. They have to understand that, even within marketing, that there's, you know, very creative people, very technical people, very brand is driven people that you know are more about the dig some PR people and they all work very differently and having to do that, you know, your head of sales may just be used to one kind of sort of hard driving kind of team and they only know how to deal with that, they would know how to manage creative people and not get frustrated with them. Right. So you do need to have this broad as a cro actually be a leader, and I think even in some cases that hold some organizations back from putting that roll in. They're like, well, it's easier to find somebody that we know knows everything about marketing. So what is keep it the same, versus someone who can really cover cover all all the functions. Yeah, really good. A lot of really interesting ideas in there. And for folks who are listening,...

...whether you've got it set to thirty seconds back or sixty two back, sixty seconds fact, it's there for a reason. I use it when I'm listening to podcast and I would do it if I just heard that pass. So I didn't miss any of the details in there because it's a really important thing to get right. Last question here on structure. You know you definitely separate revaps. For my very clearly right. I think someone that doesn't it's going to be like a nonmodern. What's the opposite of modern? Antiquated? I guess an antiquated approach would be to like lump all that tech together. Talk a little bit about where revops reports relative to a crow. Does that also fall under there or do you put your like a separate obviously our head of vaps maybe that rolls up to the crow. Just talks one more layer there specifically to that technical side of it in the revaps function. Yeah, so it so. It would need to be part of a revenue team. So report up to the crow. There was of course need to be, you know, director of revops or something along those lines that would report through a crow, but it definitely has to be a separate entity from it. And really it just the demands of the two different groups are really kind of like on the opposite sides. Like you have the front office, like the front side of a business, that needs to be agile, has to respond to customer needs fast, and then you have the organization structure where you have to be slow and methodical because the organization has to function and there's reporting and there's like big structural things happening where you know if they don't happen, the opera of the organization doesn't run. But that has nothing to do with a customer experience. And so it's really different schools of thought, different personalities even that would make up these teams. So you technical people on both sides and they both have to work together in terms of revops and I both have to have, you know, certain level of rules that they follow in terms of compliance and data security and all of that, but just from different perspectives and ultimately all of these functions. They are a customers for for revops and all the REFTECH that revops manages. Their thinking about that. They're making sure all the technology makes sense and that is their mandate and right now there isn't anybody with that mandate who is looking at all that holistically in terms of the technology that customers attract with from mental end. Yeah, really good caution for folks listening. There are several illustrations in the book that start with kind of like the antiquated model and then talk about this front of House, back of House, you know, the customer facing in the customer touch points, and then what you know is you just describe their mic what's going on inside the organization just to keep the whole thing moving, even if it hasn't touched the customer. And so this is all illustrated really nicely in the book. Some I'm going to do now. I don't know this guy going to be a speed round, but it's kind of speed round inspired. I'm just going to read one quote, like a line from the book and then direct it to one of you, and Michae I'll start with you on this one. This one's from page one hundred and seven. It's in those key moments of truth, when things go wrong, where people form a relationship with your brand. Yeah, so that's actually in the future section of a book where we talked about a good experience set that we had and that was when someone went wrong. And you know, we outlined how talking to a Chad bought was a painless experience that resolve a problem quickly and just gave us few options to move on to a resolution at our choosing. And it is so easy to screw up. Yeah, it's like something's wrong. First a question is, who do I talk to? How do I find it? I don't know if anyone's been in the situation where you're trying to figure out who do I call or who do I email and you can't find it. You just cannot find that contact information because certain companies will hide that. They don't want you to contact them, and that frustration is what you feel and you associate the frustration with for brand, because they clearly didn't care enough about how you felt in that moment. And you know, maybe that was a business decision whatever, but those are key moments where trains can go really right or really wrong, and it just requires far thought and plan. Yeah, really good. We talk about moments that matter very often here, and specifically to what you just offered their mic. Did that a emotional resonance that these moments leave with us is what it drives our memory and it drives our motivation as human beings, and so we cannot underplay the consequences of that, good or bad brandy. This one's for you, from from section customers. Success is defined as the customers desired outcome plus the customers desired experience. I love this because there's some kind of...

...background debate about outcome versus experience. I don't think you can peel them apart, and really you don't either, and you put them together in this definition of customer success. So share a few thoughts on customer success as customers desired outcome plus customers desired experience. Yes, so this is really how we measure ourselves internally. How I recommend to our clients that they measure their success with their customers. So number one is what does the customer want to accomplish like? Doesn't matter what you want them to do or it Mikes, example, how what percentage of your software you want them to use? Like it is what do they want to accomplish like? What is success look like for them? The desired outcome, and you have to get that done if nothing else. And then the other piece of it is number two, which is what is their desired experience. And customers, you know, and people work very differently. You know, if you just think about a really basic shopping experience, you know we all have to shopping in one former another, old school, where we used to have to go into a mall. Some people, like myself, like to wander around stores alone for as long as it takes to figure out what they need, and if I need something, I will come to you. That is good. That is my desired experience. That's what I consider good customer service. Is leaving me alone, whereas other people, like my mom, love for the salesperson to come and talk and find out what she's shopping for and to make suggestions, and that's what she considers a good experience. So if someone were to treat me the way that she likes to be treated, I'm annoyed and don't want to go to that store anymore, whereas if someone treated her like I want to be treated, she'd consider them rude. And so the desired outcome is to buy something. We both would accomplish that, but our desired experience is different and that's what we especially a be to be have to really understand, is that not all organizations, not even all individuals that we work with within the organizations, want to interact with a brand in the same way, and so we as marketers and really across the revenue team, have to understand that and be able to not only accomplish the goal, but to interact in a way that actually appeals to them. He has so much good stuff in there and, by the way, I'm with you, I go browsing face on and if you can't with my just browsing face, I'm going to have to tell you when the bad but it's funny because that can change like kind of on a diamonds like all of a sudden. I've like something clicks for me. I actually have a couple of follow up questions and I want someone now, and that might happen digitally, might happen in person. Really good take there. I'm going to stay with you, Brandy, and give you another line from page two, hundred and five, which is a common error at this point is hiring or promoting a strictly technical person into this role. And what we're talking about here's the REVOPS leader. So a common error at this point is hiring or promoting a strictly technical person into this role who has zero strategy in their bones. Now, we did hint at this a little bit, but I'd love like another straight go with this, because this is now about the revops leader. Mike suggested maybe a director of reboffs or someone similar brand. You speak to that a little bit. Not every person is strategic and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and you can be the most technologically savva person, no, every tech inside and out, and not be a great candidate to lead revenue operations, because the person that is leading the revops function is going to have to be the right hand to the crow. They're going to have to be strategic and understanding how the technology across all these departments can work together to accomplish the business goals and to create the various desired customer experiences, and so that really does take a special person. Like I would take someone with the strategic and that broad view who is only mildly technical over someone highly technical who doesn't have a strategic bone in their body. Like they just very much are different people with different career paths. Neither is more valuable than the other, they are just different and serve different purposes. Gay like that caution to default towards the strategy side than the technical side. Is Funny. Before we hit record, Roley and I, we both have kind of Chicago and the front range of Colorado and common we were talking about the pros and cons of each and I guess we've both kind of opted for the front range of the rocky mountains. But this idea that no candidate for this role is going to be perfect. But I appreciate your caution, Brandy, of if we have to make a decision one way or the other, let's go toward that strategy side for the benefit of the team, because you can always hire more technical people in there, related but slightly colored...

...differently. Raleigh, this person should be respected as a leader and not just as a technologist. Talk about maybe sussing out some of the leadership qualities in addition to I think obviously most leaders are strategic at some level, and effectively so. But it's there any additional color there? Yeah, instead of vaguely starting out vague, I'll start a little more specific and just say you could replace for lots of roles. You could replace technologist with salesperson or marketing person, and it's it's it's this misconception that plays out. Sometimes we're talking about hiring for the role, sometimes we're talking about promoting to the role. And then my least favorite is the player coach that I see as job posts all the time for in marketing, a revenue functions and it's like, okay, so you're not you're going to get one, let's just fit this way in. Scientifically, not my opinion or anecdotal. Usually highly technical people are not great leaders and that the one usually trumps the other. And so every time I see a super technical person like the head of Microsoft or these people that are there. I know that they're like UNICORNS. So it's just not likely and it does just how humans kind of come along is your you just get role. You your brain is wired a certain way. You're very unique, but it's it's generally that that direction. So similarly to what brand he's already said, you know, I would even be heavier with what she said around with lean towards the strategic I'd be like, don't ever ever hire a super technical person as head of revops or because the unless you just found the future CEO Microsoft, because the chances of that person actually being able to like be a good developer of people, you know, understand how different functions work and when to put their their hands into something and when to back off. Like those are more leadership kind of innate talents. They're not things you're they're going to learn and they rarely go right along with someone who's an amazing technologist, just rarely. Yeah, I appreciate that call against the the player coach situation to I feel like that should be interim and on a very fixed timeline, only absolutely as needed. I think that's pretty unfair to as so I'll turn this into a question that anyone can address. I feel like there's enough as we're all trying. Like I came out of marketing, but I do a lot more work today with my sales team members and customer success team members than I was five years ago and certainly eight years ago, and so we're all trying to build more empathy and understanding, not just of our team members and how we can serve them better and how what we can actually ask for an expect of from them, as we all try to integrate toward a revenue outcome which is really a customer success outcome, because the revenue is a consequence of customers succeeding. And we also are trying to understand the customer differently too. I think that's one of the like in a siload situation, in a BDR sees a customer a lot differently than a CSMC's a customer, which is a lot differently than an AEC's a customer, just because the way that they've interacted historically. And so I think there's enough that we're trying to do in the different hats, even within the same role, that to ask someone to be the player coach at the Save Time is just it's just not fair to the organization. I don't really think it's probably best for success to say don't want to take a swing at any of those things I just said, as in say I'll make one small point, because what you're hitting on is what a lot of companies are doing today and making a big mistake. Like it seems like OPS, so marketing up sales ops. Now Rev ops was almost you know, kind of existed, but nobody talked about it, nobody cared about it, and then over the last I'd say two or three years, all of a sudden it's like everyone has figured out the importance of the ops function and now everyone is really, you know, companies are kind of clamoring to really get it right. And what we are seeing even, as you know, we're constantly recruiting, so I'm always looking at, you know, job postings for other types of roles and I see these roles where they are merging together, like manage the team, do this, do that, and it's like they're trying to take what should be whole teams of people that serve different functions and merge it into one job, and it just it doesn't work that way. You know, those Rev ops. People don't have time to think when they're constantly just, you know, it's like an octopus, like just trying to get their hands and everything, and then they become ineffective and the...

...organizations like, well, why is? You know, why aren't we moving forward? Why is our customer experience still crappy? You know why this, why that? And so it is important for organizations to really think about the REV ops function and the different hats as separate roles, as opposed to trying to have someone who's doing it all, because one person trying to do it all is sometimes worse than not having anyone focusing on it. Yeah, I love it. I'll add one question to that. Why can't we keep anyone in this role? That's a loaded question. Yeah, totally. Just that. You know the caution, whether you're whether you're writing the scorecard of the job description or whether you're looking for work yourself, keep in mind that, either as a creator or someone reading it, this should not be a grab bag wish list of all the things we wish we could get in this magical person that doesn't exist. And if we can get some of the checks, enough of the boxes, they're still set up for failure. Last one in this kind of quote round, and this one I'll gives you rally and I this is I think this one for last because it's such a big idea and I think there's potential here to knock down some of the things that we just assume are true. It's I'll just with that. I'll just say the quote, which is from page to hundred thirty nine. Growth is not always healthy at the cellular level. Uncontrolled growth is cancer. Yeah, I think it's even. We can even, you know, keep picking on Sass companies here just to say that, you know, they find it not just, you know, within their top leadership, but anyone kind of coming into rolls in those firms as yeah, like this is how it works. Like part of SASS is to grow uncontrollably and without a lot of you know, worry, because at some point, after we've lost a lot of money, somebody will buy us and then, you know, the investors will collect, you know, some profit from the investment they've made over the last three, four five years. Right. And you know, my example in the book was a volleyball coach who was abusing as players and they were really, really successful, but as soon as he's out, that team fell apart. Those girls probably don't ever play that sport anymore, you know. So it's like that's not healthy, that's not good. I guess it was good on the surface for a few years, right, but so that's kind of kind of the point is when Brandy and Mike and I are looking at like ways to grow and should we turn this knob and should we pull this lever? Like a lot know what we're doing is, is that sustainable? Is that a short term is this healthy for everyone? Do this may still make this the kind of place that we want to be working for and other people want to work for. So we could grow really, really fast if we wanted to. That's not that hard. What's really hard is could do it in a healthy, sustainable way. So good, thank you for that. It's like, obviously health. He's been used multiple times already, but this just what comes to mind. I'm thinking of a friend of mine who is in a role. He was really excited about it. Great performer, Really Smart Guy, constantly investing in his own personal and professional growth, like the kind of person we would all like to have on our team. And he was in this organization and within a year. He moved out because he would hit plan and exceed it by ten or fifteen percent. In his role like that, he was giving more than what the organization was asking. As soon as he did it was like, oh well, actually, we're move the goal post. Move the goal post, move the goal post. It was just growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. And your point is, is this the kind of place I can worked? Is this the kind of place I want to work, as this the kind of place where I can feel successful? It's like the dude was making the goal line over and over and over again and they all they would do is just keep moving it away and it's like toward what end, you know, and so it that. That certainly is an unhealthy dynamic. For folks who are listening. If you have enjoyed this so far, I've got two episodes in a reference them for different reasons. First Episode One hundred and twenty seven, with Darryl Praylee, C X Strategies for Cros. We talked to darrel about how he is executing the crow role and how he's integrating hit the three teams in his organization. It's a little bit different structurally than even some of what we talked about today. So Darrell prayl Cro at Vanilla soft and then a little bit earlier on episode one hundred and Twenty One, this is one of those two guests on the same show, episodes, Christy or Nellis and Steve Cox at Cisco. We call that one. Three ways to elevate x from the world's best workplace and a word that they earned a couple years in a row, and certainly building healthy environments where people can do their best work and operate in sincere spirit of service on behalf of customers and for better customer experiences. Those two are definitely on the front edge of that in a very, very large organization. So, Raley, Mike Brandy, I guess I'll direct these in order. Mike, I'm...

...going to give you two opportunities here. The first is to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or your career, and then also to give a nod or a shout out to a company or brand that you personally appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer, and that can be anything, by the way. We can get out of the bounds of like traditional business and get into your favorite shoes if that's what you prefer to do. Anyone or any company come to mind for you? Yeah, I mean apple is sort of a an organization that I'm a big fan of. You know, I appreciate the product that they create and the thoughtness that they thoughtfulness that they put into the integration of their technology across multiple technologies because, like a lot of people will be apple fan boys and that's fine, but you know, I wasn't an apple I used to be on a windows person. Then they used to use a blackberry, but through the experience that they created in the seamlessness of connectivity and transition from one device to another, it just made it really easy. And you know, if I have to pick one, one organization that does that every day in my life, because I have so many other product I would have to pick them. And in terms of how did you phrase the first question, in terms of impact on my career, it's had a positive impact on your life for your career? Well, I mean I kind of want to call out my co offer see here, brand and rally, because I've learned so much from both of them. been working with brandy longer and rally, but still many years and you know they both teach me so much all the time. So, you know, thank you, guys. Always appreciate your support. Awesome. I'm glad you could both be here for that. It's so. It's so I get so many nice responses like yours, Mike, but you know, even when I tagged the other person on social media I might not even see it. So I'm glad they could both be here for that rally. How about you, I guess. For the person, I'll say that I had a mentor for about six years named John Wood, and he had no real great reason to be my mentors, so he was kind of doing he must have thought I was worth the time. But I think a lot of the ways that I learned about being direct and talking to other leaders. You know, we were I was in a role of advising CEOS and others, and he taught me kind of the simplicity of having those conversations and supported me for a long time. Had Long breakdown. How did that call go? Let's talk through it. How did that meaning go? Let's talk through it. So I think that John Probably made the biggest impact on what you see right now in camera is different because of him. I think I have to for brand. I kind of have to give Oakley my props here, because I've been wearing Oakley since I was eighteen years old and I never wear anything else, and so like that's a long I always think of that as like that's got to be my longest brand commitment and for me it's just like a consistent I don't feel like it's changed and all this time and it's still very relevant and all my stuff I would consider like so high quality. So that's kind of my brand out I'll stick out there. Awesome. Same for you, Brandy. All Right, so my I've had time to think about this. I'm ready. My person would be Jeff Batiste. He was a former manager when I worked at aid and he is probably the the person that I would credit with helping me to bring out my authentic me and at work and to lean into my leadership qualities. You know, being a woman in business, being a black woman in business there, you know, comes with its own challenges and he was the one that nudged, or in some cases pushed me to really like come out of my shell, and that's really the role that I would say my career trajectory changed so he's definitely a person that I thank for helping me to become who I am as a professional woman today. In terms of my brand, it's got to be Delta Airlines. Everybody knows that I live and breathe Delta and it's mainly, I mean it truly is, because of their customer experience. Like my loyalty to Delta, I feel is rewarded and I, you know, feel like they are solid in an industry where, you know generally there's not the greatest customer service and that they really do try and make a good you know, make all of their passengers, and especially their frequent flyers, have a good experience and to actually, you know, give back in that experience. So Delta Airlines would be the brand...

...that I admire. Their customer experience awesome. Thank you for that round. Really appreciated a couple of repeat ones there. We've definitely heard apple and we've definitely heard Delta. I haven't heard Oakley, but I have heard some some other brands that are a little bit similar. Not necessarily I wear but just like associated low oakly with kind of a lifestyle type of a brand in a way, and it's cool to hear from a longtime customer that they have stayed on the edge of relevance for several years. For folks who've enjoyed this conversation, and anyone can take this one. If people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more about Cmo to crow or they even want to go get a copy of it, it's they want to learn more about Tegrida and learn more about the work that you do. We're some places that someone listening to this episode should go to bring it more to life. I can take that one. So, in order to get the book, you can go to the book rep website, which is revenue takeovercom, and it is pretty much sold wherever books are sold online. To learn more about Tagrida, you can visit US online, which is Tegriacom, and all three of us are very active on Linkedin, so feel free to shoot us a note if you want to connect. Definitely let us know that you heard us here so that we know how you found us. But yeah, that's how you can reach to awesome rally. Brandy Mike, Thank you so much for spending this time with all of us. Love the work that you are all up to. Someone needed. I agree someone needed to write this book, someone needed to cast this vision, and I appreciate you spund of this time to kind of bring some of the ideas off the page for me and for listeners. Thank you for having for having us. One of the most impactful things you can do to improve customer experience and employee experience is to include some video messages in your daily digital communication. Explain things more clearly, convey the writ emotion and tone, safe time by talking instead of typing, prevent those unnecessary meetings. There are so many benefits to using simple videos and screen recordings, and bombomb makes it easy in email, linkedin or slack messages from Gmail Outlook, sales force outreach or Zen desk. Learn how Bombom can help you and your team with clear communication, human connection and higher conversion. Visit Bombombcom today. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. SLASH PODCASTS.

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