The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 4 months ago

202. The Death of Distance in a Digitally Polluted World w/ Dr. Erik Huffman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Nobody is far away or out of reach anymore, not in the digital environment. Welcome to the Death of Distance.  

We all can be reached anytime, anywhere. What does the Death of Distance do to us psychologically? What does it do to our safety? 

Hear our conversation with Dr. Erik J. Huffman, Director of Information Technology at BombBomb:

  • How the digital environment has changed our concept of “customer”
  • What cyberpsychology is and why it matters
  • What impact digital pollution and the death of distance have
  • Why cybersecurity is growing so much and needs to grow even more
  • Why Erik launched MiC Club and the state of diversity in cyber  

More information about Dr. Huffman and today’s topics:

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. We have created an environment we are not built for. Hackers are not just hacking computers and networks, they are hacking people. Technology is not the problem, we are. That's part of the description of a text talk delivered by today's guest, titled Human Hacking. The psychology behind cyber security. Our guest is a cyber security researcher and cyber psychology expert. He's the founder of handshake leadership, a track coach, a mentor and an adjunct professor. He's the host of the MIC club podcast minorities in Cyber he's a teammate of mine, the director of it here at bombomb and he's featured in our documentary on digital pollution called dear first name, Dr Eric Hoffman. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. Hey, thank you for having me. Yeah, it's totally overdue. I've I've intended to have you for a variety of reasons, but with the release of the documentary I was like, all right, we definitely have to make this happen. Yes, sir, yes, there's so it's bound to happen at some point in time, but I'm glad it's now, like now's the time for this to happen. Awesome. I don't know how many episodes you've heard, but I'll tell you we always start with the same question. It's been fun to ask it from a variety of people and if as looking back on the guest list, and I do believe you're the first cyber security and definitely for Cyber Psychology Person Expert that we've had on the show, we always start with customer experience. When I say that to you, what does it mean customer experience? To me it means how did you feel through the process, because when you experience something, it's it's more about the feeling that you get less about the tangible things that you received from it. So, if you go you can buy a vehicle. If you buy a vehicle, you can have a horrible experience buying a vehicle or you can have a great experience buying a vehicle. So it's not about the vehicle, it's about how you felt during that process. So customer experience to me is how did I feel during a process. This is less about what about the sandwich I received, the Sandwich I ate that was, the product that that I received, or the service that I received. It's more about the feeling that I had as I was going through that process. Really well said and I love the car example. Actually did an episode on my car buying experience a couple of years ago. I had a lot of variety of experiences with three different dealers. But you're right, it's fun. That's the reason I ask the question to so many people's where do the answers diverge? Where do they converge and how we make people feel? Although we don't have complete control over it, we can try to influence I found that that becomes a very, very consistent response. So I love that you went there. As director of it here at Bombb, of course your customers an internal customer. How do you personally think about that or talk about that and as director, how do you maybe coach or teach to that? Yeah, it our security is a is a service and so that service the like bomb, bomb being our customer. It's an odd dynamic because you still want to have an amazing experience, you still want your customer, I still want bomb, to have an amazing experience every time they interact with us, but also we are part of the team as well, and so we want to push the organization forward and we want to push the organization to be better, and especially with security, sometimes you're pushing organization in areas they didn't even know that they had problems, they didn't even foresee, and so it seems less like, yes, we want to provide you this amazing service. However, we also need this, we need this from you, and very rarely in a service do you ask your customer, Hey, we need you to do this, please do this, we need you to do this right now, Um, and so it's a it's an odd balance. But our team we constantly think about a customer. We constantly think about bomb, bomb, constantly think about like yourself there and connor, and how every interaction with us is positive or in sightful, because we want to provide an amazing service to bombomb but we also want it to be insightful. If we're providing guidance to bombomb as well. Awesome and it's funny you, as I was thinking about you and I was thinking about this conversation, I was thinking about your team, who I love, by the way. Shout out to to all of them, especially for listening today. You remind me a bit of our customer care team, where, if everything is going perfectly, no one really notices what you're doing. You're typically...

...interacting people with people when they have a problem or a challenge or confusion or frustration. So you know, you don't get the customer usually at they're happiest or their most stronger secure. Yes, yeah, that's true. It get in psychologically, mentally. Can where are you? Because every time you talk to someone is when there's a problem and then after, if things are going absolutely perfectly, no one even notice you, no one even recognizes you. And so as a director, as a hopefully, I think leadership is is a privilege and it has to be given to you with your team. So, hopefully, if I'm viewed as a leader in the department, in the organization, I constantly try to read like that bat self affirmation. Are Da, Hey, good job, excellent, excellent work, because if things are going perfectly, no one noticed is that we're even there. My guess we're there, but no one even it's easy to forget until like, Oh man, my laptops broken like day. It like no, no, no, it's worked well for about three years and now you have one bad experience in it's about time for you to get a new one. Art's about time for something, something to break. Back to the car analogy. You love your vehicle, but the second you get a flat tire you're mad at the vehicle. You Mat about, mad at the tire manufacture. Or if the car breaks down and it's been twenty years old and you like, Oh man, this car sucks, like no, no, it worked well for a long period of time and just now is a moment announced, a moment of time. So it's a leadership there. It's you're constantly just trying to grow your team, Mentor your team. Love your team and recognize them and I try to push them in bombomb as well, like Hey, our team is doing this, we're doing this and they're doing absolutely amazing work, just so we're not forgotten about. We don't want to be a forgot about department because it's critical it's critical to any organization. Technology is critical to every organization on the planet and we just want to make sure that bomb doesn't forget we're there. We Love Bombomb, we're just as bombombs bombomb is bombomb and and we want to continue to be part of the team and help the organization grow awesome and and I want to get into the security piece. I'll probably move into psychology first, but last thing here on kind of customers and customer experience. Obviously, for any organization, including yours in the context of bombomb, we have just keep track of and stay ahead of changes in our customers lives and and broader experiences so that we can still be helpful, still be relevant. Obviously, one of the biggest changes that happened for your customer, me among them, over the past couple of years, of course, is going remote. For folks who are listening, bombomb was almost exclusively in person team. I'd say ninety five percent of our team was all in house in downtown Colorado, springs, small office up in Denver, and then, of course, now are highly distributed. We're hiring all over, I think still all over the country. I don't think we're we're into Canada or Mexico he had in terms of employees, certainly customers in dozens of countries around the world. But you know, as we've gone distributed, what has that done to you and your team as our ex broader experience has changed as individuals, how have you had to adapt to that, because that's a big shift for us. Yeah, it's so unique problem, and I think problem is the appropriate word for it, because it takes one centralized network. So we had everyone in one building, we had one front. You know, we have to protect this one building, this one network, and we broke it up and so now it's whatever's going on at home may potentially impact bomb bomb our may imputt may potentially impact the the corporate infrastructure or your laptop, the information that's on your lap top, and so it's a lot of reliance on trust, on trusting the teams to do the right thing, but you still trying to box and and control what you potentially can't control. Companies have done this with vpns and things like that. So that's what that's what was implemented, corporate VPN, because we don't want to take on the onus of your network is Lord knows what's going on there. But we want to be able to control an environment as much as we possibly can. But also spreads out the customer. And so that experience of man, my laptop broke, are my microphones not working, my cameras not working and I have a call with the customer coming up in the next hour. It makes trouble shooting that difficult. And so you can't come to the customer and like Hey, click here, click here, oh, silly you your this is just unplug let me plug it in. You're trying to do all of this remotely, and the more remote they are, the more difficult that becomes. Because we do have we have an executive in...

Florida, and so if the executive in Florida that laptop gets broken, are as lost or something like that, we have to ship out laptop, which means a significant longer period of downtime, which we don't want, which we don't want, and also with costip being an organization, being being an organization that needs just like every other the company. You know you need money. We just can't preemptively send out a laptop like, just in case, keep these three spare laptops. So you still trying to provide great service, but you have to understand that there's going to be some give and take in a remote environment is not conducive to it fixing everything within two or three minutes. It might take a little bit longer because you're working with someone that's not as familiar with technology. Over the phone, are via zoom, if it zooms even possible, if the laptop batteries just blown up or something like that, you might be on the phone asking like hey, how can you, how can you fix this? But you still want that customer experience, you still want that feeling that that person received to be positive. Even in panic situations and it's like hey, I it, can you come to me? It's like, well, we don't want, especially mid pandemic, you don't want to go to someone's house. I didn't want anyone to go to someone's house because that's not safe and not so you don't want to just be in someone's home anyway. But at the same point we want to fix it as quickly as you possibly can and provide a positive experience as best as you possibly can, knowing that the constraints are kind of are against you, to be honest. Yeah, okay, so I read that description. I don't know that you wrote it. They, the TEDX people, might have written it. By the way, it's up at Ted and Ted X, which is really cool awesome. Yeah, so we're talking about being more digital, virtual and online period. It's a it's a human problem, not a technology problem. Technology is just the vehicle. This is a cyber psychology issue and that, you know, immediately conjures things like spoofing and kinds of like just trying to trick humans and play to their weaknesses. But I'd love for you to start at that high level and environment that we are not built for. So when we talk about spending all of this time personally and professionally, frankly, digitally, virtually and online, why, from a human evolution and a human psychology standpoint, why are we not built for this? Well, if you think about your school, yeah, we can go back to back to middle school, maybe elementary. I remember when I was learning math. I was horrible at math. As soon as they added letters into math equations, I was done, like I could not hang. But I remember my teacher telling me, your Eric, you're going to have to learn this because you're not going to walk around with a calculator in your pocket. Well, two thousand and twenty two, we all have iphones, android's, like, shame on you. Are Jokes on you, Mrs Math Teacher. Mr Math teacher, I have a have a calculator in my pocket. But if, as we begin to think about where technology has taken us, we're not talking about a tree, we're not talking about a force, we're talking about an environment in which we have created. So if you think about something that was built for us, if you're creatingist, or something that we evolved into, if you're if you're not, you begin to think about the biological barriers, are the biological safeguards that we have built within us to keep us safe. So if you're if you've ever walked around and you think like Hey, I have a weird feeling in my gut, something bad's going to happen, that something bad's going to happen and you begin to move away, are, if you begin to trip yourself and you just caught yourself, something like, those biological barriers of safeguards that we have, those are things that are useful in environments that have been created. Force, are environments that we are built for. This digital platform, this digital environment. These zoom conversations, are being able to have the you know, the proverbial calculator in my pocket are the Internet. These are things that we have created and we've created recently, and so we quite also we just don't know how to interact, we don't know how to act within those environments and the biological safeguards that we have they just don't work the same they they are really they don't work against us, but they don't help us in the same instances of stranger danger that we have faced in in previous...

...interactions. So we're more vulnerable. Oh, definitely, definitely, we're. We're significantly more vulnerable now then we are then. If you think about different types of attacks that prey on people, you we can think of one of the one of the best pin test are security assessments that I have done. I took a bunch of thumb drives to an organization and I just dropped them and I just dropped them around the parking lot and so people they'll pick them up. They're not just trying to they're not trying to still them. Maybe somewhere, maybe somewhere, but you just they just pick them up and they put them in their computer to figure out what's on this and who can I give this back to? And so they plug them into their computer and we would we weren't infecting malwhere, but we could have. We absolutely could have, but we just took ticks on just how many people plug these into their computer. One hundred percent of people plug them into their computers and they just want to find out who they belong to and also different, different security assessments. I have done. The best way to get into any secure environment on the planet, I say best kind of ingest but also also pretty pretty frankly, is with a box of pizza are a box of doughnuts. So if I'm if I'm playing as hey, I'm new person and I'm run it up to a facility and I think like, Hey, can you please hold open the door for me? I have pizza for so, I have donuts, you know, new person, I'm just trying to impress everybody. People will hold open the door and me even to another degree when we begin to think about the psychological barriers that exist within security. I was raised by an amazing woman, Southern Baptist woman. Love my Mama to death. I am a Mama's boy and she taught me Eric, you hold the door open for anybody, but you definitely hold the door open for women. It's hard for me to let that door close, like it's very hard for me to let that door close, and so if there's a secure environment, I hold open the door and mentally I'm like, oh my Gosh, do I let this door close? And it's, it's it's it's hard. So those barriers for the environment that we have created, they don't align with our psychological barriers that we have for on the day to day, for the ninety nine percent of our day, are the ninety five percent of our day where some of these things don't apply. But yet we're learning and we're learning and we're going through those growing pains right now as as humans, as people, as digital citizens, we are learning and we're learning the hard way and we're in the middle of that learning the hard way. Yeah, really good analogy. And, by the way, if it's a woman holding boxes of pizzas, apparently, Oh my God, he comes the specially challenging. So so we hear bombomb we use the term digital pollution to capture the negative side of what a lot of people call noise so when we're talking about being in digital, virtual online environments, humans evolved over Millennia to be safe, to survive, to protect ourselves, to produce our offspring in an analog physical space. So you've already described how we're moving into this and digital environment that we created. Those defenses that we've evolved to have and refine over millennia don't really apply or apply nearly as well here. And then, in the face of that, we have all of this noise that we're up against. We have inboxes that are over full, we have DMS in all the social platform slack. My goodness, if you're in multiple slack channels, like and you know, like I'm in, of course, the bombmb one, but like five or six other ones, and they're all lit up all the time. And so these are noisy environments. Some of it is pollution. Talk about how that dynamic and perhaps even the death of distance, which is a little bit that's a term I learned from you, by the way, so you can feel free to define that. Talk about how that dynamic of just the volume of noise and stuff to sort it's not just that one person coming to the door with a box of doughnuts and we need to evaluate should I let this person in or not. There are five thou in people with boxes of doughnuts and and pizzas and smoothies and coffees and Frappuccinos at all these like how do I sort through all these like talk about just a volume of stuff and the way that that, that dynamic affects humans and human psychology. The death of distance. So the death of distance is the fact that no one is far away anymore. Nobody is out of reach anymore. You may be out of the office, but you you're not out of the MBOX. So if you are out of the office...

...but you're not out of the INBOX. A lot of us we we check our emails on the weekend, myself included on that. But you can reach anybody one it might be first named Dot, last name at whatevercom first name, last name, no space, at WHATEVERCOM, first name at Whatevercom, and you can begin to guess who you want to reach how you want to reach them. So nobody's out of reach, nobody is out of touch. So there is no distance. So if distance existed previously, like Hey, I can't talk to Ethan because Ethan's not around are. I've try to go to Ethan's house. Ethan's not home, so ethan is out of reach. That's no longer the case. You're within reach. Whether it's email, whether it's slack, whether it's text message, facetime, phone call, Zoom, somehow, some way, you are able to be reached. Seven and we all are, unless you're I want to preface our shit. Suffice with that there's a lot of people in a lot of countries without, without means, and you know they're they're definitely don't exist within this paradigm. But if you are, then there is no there's no distance. We can all be reached at any moment, at any moment of time, even if it's facebook Linkedin Instagram, we can continue to go. However, with all of this that, with there being no distance and we all can be reached, that means there's a lot of people that want to reach us, whether it's for something, for malicious purposes, or whether it's something just to sell a something, or if it's just spam, if it's just spam, or if it's just John Gar, if it's just digital pollution. So we the amount of noise we hear or we see right now are just the people that want to reach us, and because there's so many people that would like to reach us at seven, at any moment in time, we begin to miss what's Real, what's authentic and what's not. And the psychology of that is it's fascinating. So if I was to send Ethan a message, I was to send you a message, you and I, we know each other, we're fairly close. So if I read you a message, you might read in what I can tell, that's Derek. I could read that in his voice. Hen He even writes, how he even writes, how he speaks. Are you write how you speak? That's how a lot of us have. You know that professional tone that we used to learn in grade school? Are We used to learn high school, College, Master's program whatever. Yeah, a lot of that goes away. Like a lot that goes away. You're right, how you speak, and so you begin to read how I speak. However, if so on was to spoof me, to fake me, and they took some time to read my facebook, Linkedin Post or whatever, you begin to read Er Kuffman, and then you read in my tone. So it's not me, but you're reading how I speak, which is a dangerous, a dangerous, dangerous game to play, because it's a paradigm or phenomena that I call human factor authentication. So when you read the name, you begin you authenticate that person in your mind, like Oh, this is Eric, so I'm a read this and you're going to read this as Eric. I I like to use the analogy. Are you like to use a picture of Morgan Freeman? If you see Morgan Freeman, then you read something, you're going to read in Morgan Freeman's voice. He has the greatest voice in the history of ever. Like, I don't watch any of my talks or anything like that because I don't like the way I sound. I'm one of those people. I don't like the way I sound, but I love the way he sounds, and so I begin to read it in his voice. But let's take this and go one step further. If if it's your let's bring it to the organization. This is the customer experience podcast. Let's bring it, let's bring it to let's bring it to the organization. If so one spoofed your CEO him are hurt, you begin to read it in their voice and, depending on your relationship with that person, you're going to feel something. And if you read it and you're like Missr CEO, are Miss Ceo, is is hotheaded, or she's angry at me, you're going to read it and you're going to begin to panic. And what this is called? This is called a Mingland, a hijacking. I'M gonna relate this back to something we all done. I was not a whole. I was not a good student in high school or in elementary. Sorry teachers. However, it's the equivalent of getting a message from my mother that said, wait until your dad gets home, I will begin to start cleaning, I will begin to my room would be spotless and had nothing to do with my grades at all. I'm just in panic mode and I need this to go away and because I need it, I needed to go away. I'm just starting to act. So back to that email. You read that email from Mr missrs CEO...

...or Miss CEO and you begin to panic, and that message says, Hey, I need you to to send me x amount of dollars. Are Transfer this from this account to this account. I needed immediately for our customer A, B and C. you're in panic mode. You're going to act in you're going to do that level of stranger danger. That's that's taking the stranger and making the stranger human and making the strangers somebody else. And there's a few principles of influence that everyone has psychologically, whether you're whether your man, woman, child, black, White, Hispanic, Asian, it doesn't matter. We all have these same principles of influence. That particular instance is a principle of influence of authority. If someone has authority, someone says you can do so, you possibly will do so if you're depending on your relationship with that person. If, Mr Miss CEO, you have a good relationship with you may reach back out to them and say hey, do you actually need this, and they might be like Nah, I don't, I don't know, I don't know who that is, I don't know what's going on. But Mr Miss CEO, cannot stop that. There's people that want to reach us and they can reach US however, however many means that they want. And it's not like well, I'm a protect my name, no one's going to ever be able to smoove me. No, you can create a free account by a hundred thousand different means right now. You can't stop that. But there's also the principle of influence, of like reciprocity. There was a by you, professor, I think, in the S, who sent out five hundred Christmas cards to five hundred people that he did not know, just sent them out blindly. And four years straight, I think those between five years straight, that professor received Christmas cards back, just like, Hey, Mary Crisp, you sent me a hammer and Christmas card. You know what I'm send you one back. And the reciprocity is the reason why you go to a car dealership to pick on a car dealerships get they they give you a bottle of water. Are they give you some popcorn. And if it's the high classes, they really want to get me, they give me some cookies. You know something along lines of that, because if I give you a free bottle of water, you are more likely to buy a car. That's how far it goes. The reason why they leave you ad meant on your tip when you go out to eat is because you are going to tip twenty percent higher because they gave you a free mint. Or if they cop part of your mail, they give you a free appetizer, you're going to tip significantly more because they gave they gave you something free there. It's that that influence of reciprocity, commitment and consistent. They just won't stop. Is another principle of influence. Social Proof, letting you know that they're that they're real, they're not, they're not a robot authority, which what we'd spoke about. Liking is the most, the strongest principle of influence. So let's go back to Mr Miss CEO in the email. So if you have, if you have a great relationship with that person and you like that person, you're more likely to act because you like that person. So I'm a Morgan Freeman Fan. I'm a here. I mean use Morgan Freeman, we use a Morgan Freeman as an analogy, and so, as board your Freeman, if I happen to see Morgan Freeman, are if you happen to see your favorite pop star, your favorite musician, artist, your you might smile, you might run up to them, give them a hug, shake their hand and ask for an autograph, but let me walk by. You're not going to do that because you don't know who I am. You're like, Hey, I don't know you, I don't know if I it's not like you don't like someone, you just don't know them, so they're not going to influence your behavior. Because that person, you like that person, they are going to influence your behavior and you're going to act in ways that you've never acted before. That's why people, when you are on the online dating site and you see someone that you're attracted to, you're more likely to reach out to that person and that person is a complete stranger. And one thing I want us to to take home is that if we understand the dynamics of online dating and that people now they're meeting their significant others on this digital platform, which means you can literally fall in love on this digital platform if you if I could get you to do that, I can get you to do anything really, really good. There's obviously the principles of influence, this idea that, as all this stuff is coming at us, someone can easily take advantage of us by, you apple, using any of those principles of US prosity. I've actually received emails from Connor mccluskey and you know, I know him very well. I've been working with him for a dozen years now, ten years formally as a full time employee, and he's never once asked me for money, but in this case use asking for like, you know, some...

...money type situation. But I really love the example. There's a lot in there, by the way, and in everything you shared. But this idea of you're going to walk by strangers and you're going to approach people you know, or this is the other interesting layer you added there people you feel like you know even though they don't know you at all. Just this idea of this pair of social relationship that we're building because we see them, we hear them, we read them, we like them, we're drawn to them, even though we don't actually truly know them. And of course, the dating site. Certainly, anyone that spent any time there, I'm sure, has a lot more stories than I do. I met my wife before that was really super popular, so I never I don't have a lot of experience there, but I do know that it's just like any other environment where, Oh, I now meeting you in person and you're nothing like that profile picture and you're much better at online chat than you are in real life conversation. Like all these gaps between the perceived person and experience in the actual, realized experience. Talk about just give us a couple like like practical hacks, and I'm bridging a little bit into security, but you've are you've already done a really nice high level job with a lot of examples on a kind of approaching the ways people are getting hacked. But give us a couple more. Is Funny in the documentary dear first name, you actually mentioned an experience you had where someone was greeting you with an email dear first name, and we've got a lot of positive feedback on it because everyone's experienced similar or, like you know, whether it's going with the first name, whether it's spoofing someone we know. Give us a couple other like basic human hacks that people are trying to use to get access to to us or our laptops or even our networks. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to it. A lot of people, if they're attacking form malicious purposes, they'll prey on one of those principles of influence. But they also that also try to play on your personality type. So me, I do a lot of speaking. I'm very fortunate. So I get random fake speaking engagements like hey, they they get to know who you are and so I hey, would you like to speak here. Hey, in order for you to speak here, we're not going to pay you. You're actually going to pay us, like, like, what? Like, what? Like, like, like, what are you? What are you talking about? That's not that's not how this works. But also, when they're reaching out to you, there's something called, there's a phenomenon that I'm coining Aus Threat Language, and so with threat language, what they're trying to do they're trying to psychologically compromise you. So when you it's because you don't see stranger danger. You're going to see a name that you've never seen before and in this paradigm, with with digital pollution, that is no longer scary to us, which is odd to think about. Like, Hey, I'm a see a name I have never saw before and I'm a film nothing and they're going to try to reach out to me and I'm going to reply that. That's that's where we are right now. So they're going to you're going to see a name you've never you've never saw before. But also there's instances of threat language to try to psychologically compromise you. I do a lot of fishing attacks just for research purposes, and so this is one particular instance I'd like to share. I sent out an email unt I have three tiers. One I'm cheating to it's you may fall for this, you may not, and in three I literally call ain't nobody going to fall for this, and because I'm just send some blind something blindly out there. And so one was in that third crack category of ain't nobody going to fall for this. So I sent it out. I spoofed an American name and it's I spoofed. I spooped an English name and it's. It was just thrown out there in this individual replied. What the email said was that hey, we had your camera, we saw you, we saw you looking at adult websites and we have pictures of this. Send US three Bitcoin, which is like eleventy billion dollars right now, and we'll make it and we'll make it go away. And this person replied. And so me, I'm throwing on my my fake hacker hats for research purposes, and I send back out a message like okay, send it to the are you familiar with cryptocurrency? Replies back yes. I'm like, is he actually going to fall through with this? And so all right, here's here's a wallet. It was a fake wallet. In order to get it, click in order to get access, click here, this person. Click there. It spawned up a message of Hey, this is a this is a fishing attempt. Please contact because our was contracted with the organization. Please contact me here immediately. Because what what I do? I follow up with a semi structured interview, much like much like this, a semi structured interview, and I began to ask questions like what's going...

...on? And so I learned that this, this indivisual, was going through marital problems with his significant other and she said she views that him viewing content like that is a form of cheating and he wanted it to go away. So he was willing to pay to make it go away. And so I say that because each the psychological barriers that the the attacker is trying to overcome varies from person to person. The days of Hey, this is the Nigerian princess, the Nigerian Princess, you've won this contest from Cocacola, from Pepsi, or something like that. That is watering down what's actually going on. There a lot better than that. The English is written a lot better than that. And even because of social media, a lot of where a lot of poor English is just articulated out there every day and that doesn't even raise red flags that hey, this isn't written very well anymore, that we're constantly being psychologically tested. It's like a psychological spar against in the the unfortunate part is well, the fortunate unfortunate part is depends on how the person is trying to reach some one. For legitimate purposes. They might fall within that gap. You might have a legitimate need for me and you attempting to contact me to sell me something, and I'm just going to ignore it because it's not it's hitting me the wrong way. And so it could be poor English, it could be a fake name, but it's so hard to tell because once you get into that mode of a minglet a hijacking, what you stop thinking, you start acting. It's over, and so everything is like a psychological spar between the person and the attacker. How can it get you to interact with them? Because once they're in it's it's not all over. is going to be up to you to deductively reason your way. Is this real or is this fake? Yeah, couple really powerful things in there. One is the desensitization that you already mentioned. I think about especially in a beat to sea context. I don't know how many of these emails you've received. I've received many. Hey, we're really sorry, data breach, right, and I think in a beat to sea context that's like kind of it's just, Oh, okay, that sucks, maybe I'll just change my password, maybe I won't, I don't know. Obviously, and be to be it's a lot different. You know, it's a much bigger deal if you're you know one of your surface providers has had a data breach, but and then in then the other one. Is this this idea of I don't need everybody to respond to this. I need to catch the right person at their weakest moment. And because of the death of distance, the inexpensive nature of putting out a lot of digital messages and experiences, it's much easier to land something. So recently run a stat cybersecurity market is expected to blow by three hundred and fifty billion dollars, by two thousand and twenty six, slightly over a twelve percent compound annualized growth rate. Is this because it's a human problem, not a tech problem, or maybe some combination of like why, and and will it ever end? And then and then I yeah, I'll just ask that like high level, like why is this ever increased, seemingly ever increasing? Is there any end to it? Is it's just constant, like chicken and egg doping an Olympic athlete, we got to advance the test to catch the person. It's just as constant pushing poll scenarios. It's just going to keep going this way. Yeah, this is a this is never going to end. Where we've gone. We've gone too far. We've invested so much of our personal selves and so much of our organizations into this digital environment. It's never going in. It's not. It's not going to go away, unfortunately. And also the if you think of the Competitive Advantage, if you think, okay, I want to make my organization, I want to make my company Hack Proof, the only way to do that is the unplug and the think, okay, you can unplug, but you know you're cutting your your revenue, are your gross profit by like ninety five percent because you're not going to reach anybody anymore and no one's going to even know you exist and not going to see you out there and so that's not an option. That that's not an option at all. So this is this is never going to go away. It's going to be a problem for now, in for the foreseeable future, unless somehow, some way, everybody thinks, you know what, hacking people, Hacking Organization is wrong, I don't want to do this no more. That will happen the second where criminals would say, you know what, I'm not going to rob houses anymore. We're done. I'm not going to steal from anyone anymore. We're done, and there's world peace. While I'm going to hug it out and saying Khumbaya. I wish that would happen,...

...but it's not going to. It is not going to, and so we're stuck where we are. But also, when you begin to think about security in how much it's grown, it's it's grown by twelve percent because, in my opinion, this is going to sound very selfish, is gonna sound very bias and there is biased to tear everything. It's grown by twelve percent because it needs to grow by seventy. It needs to grow by fifty because organizations, they're not investing in it as much as they much as they should. So if you think about your security team, you think about how many people you have, if your organizations fairly large, and you're in a single digits, I would say you're are they doing enough? Are are are they doing enough? Do they have the capacity to do enough to protect you? And you begin to if you think yes, actually, we have double digits, then think okay, we're pretty we might be in a decent spot. But I would ask you, if you're an executive, to speak to them and ask them how they fail and see if they could, if they'll be real with you, because a lot of a lot of times you talk to an organization and you think like yeah, yeah, no, no, we got it, we got it, and then they're they're totally overtasked it totally. They're totally overworked. But you begin to think about where we are with security and how many organizations are taking it seriously, but also how many organizations have nothing. And you would think like well, they would never hack me. Why would they hack me? We only gross. It could be FIFTYZERO dollars a year. Well, Fiftyzero is good money. Like you, if you don't think that's worth anything, give it to me, you know, like you can you can give it to me if your organization has anything worth keeping, it has something worth taking, and so they're going to look forward, they're going to try to they're going to try to take from it and then they're going to they're just going to sell that information off right now. So No, I'm fortunately no, it's never going to go away. It's going to get worse and we can we continue to see the trends of cyber attacks get worse. If you really want to put it in perspective, to think, is there a chance that this would ever end? Think back to two thousand and twenty, you know, Bull Wi, pandemic. Regardless of how you feel now, there was a point where we were collectively scared. And when we're collectively scared, I you can Google look up the attacks on hospitals. There were ransom wearing hospitals mid pandemic, which, at that point, I thought, even me, I thought at that point, like we're not going to like where, like, no one's going to hack hospitals right now. We're all collectively scared. We're going to come together for this one. No, no, no, no, we did not. There there were threat actors attacking hospitals it's very it's very unfortunate, but I would I would I would say cyber securities grown by twelve percent because it needs to grow significantly more. We need organizations to take security more seriously because I think if we change the economics of cyber attacks, it changes things. But we have security professionals on the wrong side of defense that are very smart, highly intelligent, very capable. Instead of thinking I want to make Seventyzero a year, they think I can make seventyzero a week by attacking organizations. That's what we're up against right now. Really good response there and I encourage again. You mentioned the word executives, where you mentioned people who are executives, and that's why I've got the back button on your podcast player and it's interesting. I think about it like I would assume that people that are under equipped or underinvested here treat it like any other risk management in the organization. But I expect that kind of the precursors or the warning signs and any other risk that you're managing. Her like all the seems to be trending downward over the past three weeks. Let's dive in. This is like an acute situation like everything's cool and all of a sudden nothing is cool anymore. We could go for a long time. You and I have had ninety minute conversations where it was, you know, instead of the five minute hallway conversations, and did in minute conversation. I have a lot more I would love to ask you about this theme and topic, but I'm going to call that cyber security for the day. I would love for you to share a little bit with folks about what you're doing with the MIC club minorities in Cyber you decided, you and I were talking about this in one of those hallway conversations. I'm thinking about starting a podcast. You finally did. Like. Why did you start the podcast? Why? Minorities in Cyber How's it going? You've got some like amazing guests already. To share a little bit for folks about what you're doing with the podcast and certainly for anyone else like you who is passionate and informed about a topic, who wants to build their network within a community, build the...

...community itself, advance an idea or a cause, like advancing the presence and support of minorities in Cyber as you are, you know, encourage them on getting a podcast up and going or something similar? Like to share a little bit about your journey so far, what motivated it, how it's going, who you've had and why someone even might want to listen. Well, thank you. Yeah, ninety minute conversations. Yeah, that's that's man, because I could talk to you about anything for hours. But I started the micclub because I I love this industry of Cyber Security. I am entirely, wholeheartedly passionate about it because, in my opinion, it's it's the new hustle. So if you have if you're a minority or if you're a person that is not economically privileged, that cyber security is an industry where they turn their nose up at traditional education, they want you to have hands on experience, they want you to have technical expertise and so they want you to have certification. So I was thinking like man, so instead of investing getting a degree as an amazing thing, and I you know, I have my PhD. I stand by that. But if I did not have the money and I wanted to get into a very good industry and make some good money, if I if someone told me, Eric, you can save up a thousand dollars, you can say what five hundred or two hundred fifty dollars, get a certification and you're qualified for this job that may pay you decently. Maybe Fortyzero, fifty thousand seventy. I know we've heard the the the trend that hey, that the average is like a hundredzero or something like that. I submit to everyone listening like man, that is amazing. So I'm trying to trying to spread this word out to minorities because that it's a very it's a very majority dominated industry, and so I want more minorities and we need more women in Cyber so I started this podcast where it's very technical but it's drawn out in layman's turns. So anyone could listen to it. Absolutely anyone could listen to it. You can be an executive that's not a cio or CETO ORCS or something like that. You can listen to it and you can learn from it. You can be you can listen to to, well, one very high level cyber security professional and then me. So you can. You can listen to those professionals speak about threat intelligence, speed, executive speak about talking to other CEOS, about investing in Cyber Security. You can speak you can listen to like Aj Nash, who's going to be on very, very soon, talk about threat intelligence and proactive intelligence and what is intelligence to an organism and and how he does it. He's a former NSA agent. We have the former CTO of the US army that was on the C cell of HP, Joanna Burkey. She is absolutely phenomenal. She was on and at the end of every episode we talked about how do you retain our how do you obtain minority talent? And it's not just for minorities. A lot of a lot of white men and women have been on the podcast and will continue to be on the podcast. But you can learn from myself are you can learn from them on how what are what efforts do they have? And you hear a lot about authenticity and understanding authenticity and where you can listen to like myself and talking to anything, while I'm like hey, what's going on, man, what up? Man, and it doesn't. It's not like that's not very professional, because sometimes different cultures, I can only speak to mine, like black culture, may be viewed as unprofessional, like what's up that? That's unprofessional. Executive would never talk like that. Are I speak a lot with my hands, as you can tell, like man like. Why is he so animated? He's so angry? Not, but they speak a lot about authenticity and understanding that. And how how do you retain that talent? Not just how do you get it, how do you retain it, because to me, if you can bring in minority talent, and that would be absolutely phenomenal, but if minorities aren't staying, there's something else going on. Awesome. I love what you're doing. I love that you just said, all right, I'm going to do this, I'm going to get it going. Amazing job landing some Super Top shelf guests for folks who are listening. I'm going to link up Mike Club. I'm gonna drop in dear first name, the documentary that Dr Ericuffman is featured in and several other things. It's all at bombbcom slash podcast. We do short write ups, we do video clips. He just mentioned that he talks with his hands. I'll have some video clips with Dr Eric in there. And if you've enjoyed this conversation, my theme here on related episodes is other people who have taken the time to earn...

...a PhD, as you have so episode one hundred and fifty three with Dan Hill, PhD. We call that one emotional intelligence and human center communication. Dan Hills an emotional intelligence expert. He has seven US patents in the analysis of facial coding data and so there's a lot of the psychology and they're not necessarily cyberpsychology. But we also featured Dan Hill in our book Human Center Communication, which shares a sub title with the documentary a business case against digital pollution. So episode one hundred and fifty three with Dan Hill, PhD. And then coming up, I think it's going to be episode two hundred and four of this podcast with Andrew Brodsky, who is also a PhD. We haven't titled that one yet because I haven't even recorded it yet, but he's also featured in dear first name. His academic work focuses on work based technology usage communication challenges and he actually did a research project with us here at bomb on years ago when he's working on his doctor atward business school. He's now at University of Texas Austin. So I'm talking with him next week and that will be coming out here pretty soon. So I respect you, I respect your work, I appreciate you spending this time with me. I look forward to the next time I run into you in the hallway and I just really enjoyed it so much before I let you go. As you know, Dr Eric, our number one core value here is relationship. So I always love to give people the chance to think or mention a person who's had a positive impact on your life or your career. Oh Man, there's a there's a lot of people. But if I was going to shout out one person, told you my mom was boys got to be mom. Yesterday, March seventeen. Don't know when this to come up with. March seventeen was my birthday and I was thinking about this before, before the podcast, and I have a voicemail from her singing me happy birthday and I re I just remember talking to her, mad pay mid PhD, in tears, not thinking I can get get through it. But she honestly, she's my motivation to push me through and continues to move me forward, continues to challenge me, like Hey, the podcast, you can just do it, like Eric just started, like why not? And so I've taken on a lot of her traits and so if I was going to shout out one, person, and one person only. It would be her, but the list is extensive that I can think awesome. Love it in a belated happy birthday to you. Um, now the customer chair. I always like to give you the chance to you know, you serve all of us here. You serve a wide variety of people in a variety of communities. I mean, I got so much I would have loved to have spent time on just so that other people could learn from your experience, including being a track coach and a mentor and an adjunct professor. Even that PhD journey that you just touched upon and how challenging that is. What's the motivation? How do you persevere, etcetera. We don't have time to get to that today, but I do want to give you the chance to sit in the customer chair give a not or a shout out to a company or brand that that gives you a great experience as a customer. Oh Man, there's there's a lot there. There's a lot. But if I was to give a shout out to one organization, and it's it's tough. It's very, very, very tough. I would give a shout out to widefield school district three. Why Build School district three? Because I work with that school the school district a lot to help move their various stem programs forward and they are extremely innovative. They want their kids to learn about cybersecurity. They want their kids to excel at a high level. But as a customer, that's a school district I graduated from as as a customer of their's. It said I wasn't the best student, but when I go back there it's constantly home. You know you go, you go there, your graduate, your family, they'll welcome you in and they'll utilize your skill set to help move that entire district Ford, which set me on a completely different journey of helping kids in stem. So I know it's not the traditional hey, I buy from this organization, but that that particular school district deserves all the praise in the world and they're doing a fantastic job. That's awesome. I will link up widefield school districts three four listeners. They are here in the Pike's peak region in the Colorado Springs Metro I love that personal aspect of that. I love that you're doubling back in trying to give back what they gave to you. Certainly you're a self professed not great middle school or high school student, but I would assume that they're all proud and appreciative of you today. I am proud to be a team member of years. I appreciate you spending time with us. As I told listeners, I will link up a bunch of the stuff at Bombamcom podcast, including some video clips. But is anywhere else you want to send people who enjoy this? They want to learn...

...more about you. They want to connect to other work that you're doing because you're involved in a variety of stuff. Is I kind of teased in the intro almost an hour ago. Now, where would you send folks to follow up on this conversation? Besides Bam podcast? They can go to youtube and look for the the MIC club. You can find that. Just find out what what we're talking about. You can go to handshake leadershipcom and find different volunteer opportunities if you would like to help help kids and stem are just just follow up with any different cyberprofessional. There's a there's a lot of us out there. You can follow me on Linkedin, connect with me on Linkedin, but I'm just one of many people doing a lot of amazing things out there. Awesome. Mike Club is just mic club, my club. He is Dr Eric Huffman, Eric with a K, Huffman, as it sounds. Dr Eric, you're awesome. I appreciate you. This was a pleasure and I hope you have an awesome rest your day. Thank you so much. You as well. We have our inbox constantly foam. We constantly have messages coming in. Work emails just went up tow one hundred and one. Have Ninety nine plus six hundred and seventy nine on ready mails. We're to talk about a major problem. My Name's Kit Bodner and I'm the chief marketing officer at help spot. I probably get ten to fifteen phone calls a day unwanted, and I probably get fifty a hundred emails a day unwanted. When I think about noise and trying to get that out of my life, I think about it through my most scarce resource, was just my time and attention. Is it worth my attention over here versus like me spending a moment with my son or cooking a meal with my son? The answers almost always know. We also know that the byproduct of that noise is feeling overwhelmed, feeling like there's not enough signal and that you feel discombobulated or confused. That's at least how I feel, so I also try to protect myself from those feelings as well. Watch the trailer now for dear first name a four part, first of its kind documentary series that explores how digital pollution is eroding our ability to communicate with each other and build trust, coming this winter.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (223)