The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 2 months ago

218. Emotional Intelligence & Human-Centered Connection w/ Dan Hill, PhD


Here are three quick ways to better assess what people are saying with their faces and emotions (aka facial coding). Pay attention to engagement, the camouflage smile, and the two-sided impact of fear. 

The face is the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to the skin. Most of us aren’t aware of what we’re giving away. 

In the next episode of our Human-Centered Communication expert series (which originally aired on August 17, 2021), Steve Pacinelli and I interview Dan Hill, PhD, President at Sensory Logic, about emotional intelligence and facial coding. 

Dan spoke with us about:

  • How to imbue a mission into work for employee retention
  • Why contempt and sadness can be dangerous emotions
  • What to do to raise our emotional literacy
  • How Steve Jobs illustrates the positive and negative sides of anger
  • Why emotions stand apart from the rational parts of the brain  

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The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. If you missed the past couple of episodes, I'll catch you up quickly. I'm taking advantage of bomb bombs sabbatical program so we're bringing you some of the most popular episodes from our human centered communications series. That series featured Steve Passonelli as a CO host. Steve is my longtime friend and team member, our chief marketing officer at Bom bomb and my co author on two books Rehumanize Your Business and human centered communication, and in the latter we did deep interviews and deep research on eleven of our expert friends to help give you a framework philosophies, best practices, specific strategies and tactics to truly connect with other human beings so you can sell and serve more effectively across the digital divide. One of those friends is Dan Hill. Dan is an emotional intelligence and facial coding expert and he shares with us in this conversation how to infuse mission and purpose into our work to improve employee retention, why contempt and sadness can be dangerous emotions, what to do to raise our emotional literacy, how Steve Jobs illustrates the negative and positive sides of anger and why emotions stand apart from the rational parts of our brain. Here's me, Steve and Dan Hill. Oh, that would be Mr Dan Hill. And when we were talking about who we want to have con tribute to the book and of course in this podcast, Dan was on the very, very short list because if we're talking about human centered communication, we want the guy who's an expert in analyzing emotions, facial expressions, personality traits. Uh, he analyzes emotions and business figures, historical figures. He's written, is it ten books? Stan, ninth book is on the way. Not. Ninth Book is on the way. Nine books. And he's the president of sensory logic. He's got seven facial decoding patents and he's been on a myriad of different shows like Fox and PBS and CNN and Good Morning America, on the topics of facial emotions or facial expressions and emotions. So, Dan Hill, welcome back to the show. Oh absolutely, thank you for taking me under the air. Yeah, we, as Steve said, definitely shortlist A. It's right in the zone of what we're trying to explore within four people, which is how to connect and communicate more effectively even when we're restricted to these virtual environments. And UH, looking forward to getting into some material here today that we're familiar with, because Steve and I are very avid listeners and readers of the things that you do, even probably beyond your awareness. But well, before we get into some of those themes, that sounds scary, but fandom, fanaticism, finline, okay. But but Dan, we'll start where we started with you last time here on this show and where we start every episode, which is customer experience. When I say customer experience, what does that mean to you, Dan? Well, I'm actually having a quote from my friend Joe Pine, because I'm producing a book that started with the working title of the Devil's dictionary of work, life and commerce, and I invited people to submit diabolical definitions, and so I wasn't too surprised. And then again I was totally surprised that Joe Pine came back with the customer experience. What executives say they're focused on when they think no one will look closely be because the reality is that obviously the...

...customer experience, along with your employee experience, should be absolutely central to how you view your organization. And yet unfortunately in so many cases it just doesn't happen. So I would say that the customer experiences in any way the emotions you give people along with the products and services, and the emotions are likely to be as are more memorable than the actual product and its processes. And yet unfortunately that gets left by the wayside because it costs money, it involves training, it involves caring about your personnel who were involved. I'm reading a book right now by the former CEO of best buy, and they bought a company that was looking after the experience of elderly people at home and trying to make sure that they were safe and comfortable, and they were shocked when they were vetting the company because the turnover rate at the company was merely two percent, and the reason for that was because the people felt that their jobs were important, they were actually adding value to other people's lives that they were or a savior, a guardian of these elderly. They obviously had their own grandparents and so there was a mission to the job and that transformed it all by itself. And if only CEOS would pay more attention to having that kind of a spirit of core, then the customer experience would be an awful lot better than it often is. Yeah, really good. Uh, well done Dan, specifically doing the mention of the mechanics, but really leaning into the feelings and the emotions and the long term consequences of when we can connect with people positively and emotionally. Also, for folks who are listening who aren't familiar, Joe Pine is one of the two co authors of the experienced economy and absolutely critical book has slept on for not slept on, but like it's I feel like it's more celebrated today than it was a decade ago and it was published twenty years ago. Uh. Dan is a friend of JOE's and I think Joe has been on your podcast, Dan Hills eq spotlight, once or twice. He has been. Joe And I have been friends for twenty years and you know, when the book originally came out, I thought it was an important book. But this is one of the rare cases where a book went into a second and third edition where the additions actually gotten stronger and they admitted what they were on the podcast that some people started looking in the book and saying it's getting a little long in the tooth and some things are obsolete, and they really took the charge seriously, went back and, I think, really upgraded the book. So and in our upcoming both the one that you so graciously decided to help us out with. Uh. You know, we we mentioned your work in politics and sports and business and other industries. Give the listeners just been a background about that work, or if you could share a couple of stories you know about your work in politics or sports that people might be familiar with? Sure. Well, let's start with politics. Um. So, I have gone through and actually facially coded every US president ever and I discovered that the most reliable indicator that they would be an unsuccessful president, as you know, determined by you know, presidential historians, will be sadness, and sadness as an emotion tends to slow you down. Uh. So, also in sports, I've found that this is not very conducive to being an NBA star, for instance. Uh So it slows you down physically and mentally, and it potentially has the advantage of making you more empathetic, but it could also make you listless, and one thing that happens to being president is essentially, especially if you're president of United States, is your job description encompasses every problem that exists in the world, because America has such a big footprint. You know that if the Israelis and a mosque go to war, suddenly that's on your plate as president. So being listless is not a luxury you get to have as president of United States. Now, Abraham Lincoln, of course, is one of our greatest presidents and he did have a lot of sadness in his face, but the correlate to that, or the thing that off set it, was he also had a really good sense of humor, including, you know, self depreciation, and so he balanced the two and I'd think that in that civil war the empathetic qualities of sadness were... to come through for him in terms of his forgiveness at the end of the war, in the terms that he was offering the south, but he also had the ability to unfortunately take in the foibles of his many generals and keep moving until he got to grant. As opposed to the other people. They certainly shouldn't have settled for Um. So I've noticed that and I as I said, I mentioned it in sports. At one point I was doing some work for the Minnesota Timberwolves and they brought in a guy from the New York Knicks who was six six and the general manager was just gloating about the fact that he had made a steel in his opinion, this is someone who could play maybe three different positions on the court. Well, I looked at the guy and I thought, oh my God, it's a disaster in the making. He had the saddest face I'd ever seen, other than maybe chief reign in the face, who was a colleague of Sitting Bowl uh, and he was. He was locker room poison. He was ineffective on the court. I mean he just he was so listless, so despondent. He didn't bring any him on with him. In the experience. And so it's not only for yourself, but it's the contagious effect you have on your teammates, on your department members and so forth, because emotions are incredibly contagious. Well, why are we so bad? Like why was the coach so bad, or why are humans so bad at like picking up on those? You would think that's an incredibly important skill to have to like recognize that and someone else and make the appropriate choice. Where where do we go wrong? Well, in this case the general manager was a lawyer. So, uh, that means you're you're studying, you know, precedents and and court law and so forth and and yeah, you would think if you're a great courtroom attorney you would really pick this up well and run with it. But that wasn't this person's background. But I have done some work in law, if we want to go over that field for just a second. Uh, it was an instance where it was now the most major suit against the Catholic Church that was settled out of court for obviously you know some of the things going on with the priests and so forth. And Uh, the person who handled the case said to me, UH, well, the number two in charge of the diocese is the most inscrutable person I've ever had to deal with. And I said, well, no one's inscrutable. Just give me a chance. I said, you've got some videotape, right disposition, deposition for this person. It turns out this was Obama's chief of staff's brother and he was a very sharp guy. But the face gives it away and I said, here's your roadmap. I found fifteen segments where this is where I would go back and I pursue the line of questioning. You know, the person showed contempt, maybe even for themselves, because they knew they were lying or offuscating. This is where they were nervous there, this is where their anger was kind of out of bounds and they're being, you know, defensive and pushing back too hard. UH, they're kind of losing their cool. These are the hotspots, the roadmap to go after this case. Um. So in every instance there's some application. Obviously too emotions. I want to twist Steve Question the other way, whereas it why are we so bad at reading these? And now I want to go to this guy here talking about who is essentially giving himself away, like why don't we have more control over our emotions, especially when it's going to Um, you know, obviously this person was let's just assume this person was obfuscating for some reason or another. Um, you know, it's to his benefit to do that effectively. And yet he didn't. You could. You, a trained professional, could easily come up with multiple instances where, you know, his face belies his words or sometimes even his actions. Like why can't we hide this better? Well, the first reason is that the face is the only place in the body where the muscles attached right to the skin. So Dr Paul Ekman calls it leakage that we give away information. I know it sounds like it depends commercial, but you know that that is leakage, that we give away things on our face and the way we don't even realize we're giving away the fact thing is this was a...

...very smart person, I have no doubt of that, real felicity with words, but sometimes we're not nearly as emotionally literate as we are otherwise literate. We don't, I mean, understand the applications of what we're giving away. And I always go back to contempt, because it's really ultimately the most important emotion. Uh, it means I don't respect you, I don't trust you, I find you beneath me. And that was some of what this person gave away. The case that should command your empathy in fact I did the work pro bono because I had had a friend who had been molested and I had seen the devastation in this person's life as they veered from everything from being a fundamentalist to a Marxist and in between an alcoholic and a very smart and good person, but they just couldn't find a runner in life. And if you look back, and I knew the person's parents, they were wonderful, nice, solid childhood. Nothing was amiss except this one incident. And so for that reason I offered my services. Um. So, if any case where you should not be showing contempt, it should have been a case like this. You had the person just treated the whole incident that way. I mean there was far more contempt on the face. I mean had it gone to trial, I think this person would have been a devastating witness against his own case because I don't think a jury would have found that kind of arrogance acceptable. I would have changed gives just for a quick second because you mentioned in the in the book or in our interview, the previous interview Steve Jobs. We talked a lot about him having h and an angry face. Um, and one thing that, as I rewatched the interview and I rewatched it again today and I was like, man, we should have asked these this follow up question, uh to that, because you know, obviously it was a tough person to to work with. I want to tie this into employee experience and customer experience here. You know, he was a tough person to work with. He had Um uh, emotional baseline of of anger most of the time. How can people take that, understand that and then use it effectively? Like, how would someone communicate with someone that that is angry or and at a part two, if they could decode that their face wasn't angry at the time, you know, how would they respond and communicate? Do you have tips around communicating with the type of people in their natural state? Sure, well, I think on Steve Jobs behalf. The first thing I would say is that every emotion has a positive side and a negative side to it, and so we often talk about anger management, which casts anger as this problematic emotion, and God knows it can be. But on the positive side it means that I also maybe want to break through barriers, that I want to control my own destiny, that I want to push farther, harder, better more successfully. So, you know, for those who work for Steve Jobs, and I knew someone who was actually kind of in his he your team for a while and said it was a it was a privilege to be in his company because you knew you had a genius, you knew that he wouldn't settle for low standards, Um, and it was breathtaking to witness his drive. On the other hand, it was exhausting and eventually this person said, you know, you know, three years or five years, whatever it was, was enough and before I was completely burned to crisp as a toast. Uh, you know, I had to get out of there. Um. But I think as a leader, if you can keep them reminded of that mission, that goal, that glory, I mean people like to have a sense of purpose in their life and if we can only get a moment in the sunshine of having some glory or basking in a refracted way to someone else's glory, Steve Jobs Glory, Apple's glory, I mean I think that can carry people a fairly good way, as long as you don't go to the emotion I just mentioned, contempt, because if you then say well, you're part of the problem. You're part of the mediocrity, you're the part of was'n't letting us not break through these barriers. Then you'RE gonna lose...

...those people and you know they're gonna feel under attack. So I think that's the kind of finessing that that kind of leader should do, and they can make it feel exciting and we're in this and not be in the act of seemingly throwing people off the boat to the sharks. The whole thing is going to go more successfully for everyone who's not named Steve Jobs. So you don't have to wait for an emotional change. There are always ways that are depending on their demeanor, to communicate with that person in their natural well, I think you want to. You want, in that case, the emphasize what's the positives of this emotion. I mean, if it's so central to who you are, so intrinsic, you may just not be able to authentically, you know, take it out of the equation. So at least got to emphasize where it has positives that it brings. And maybe you have to I don't know if jobs ever managed to do this, but you might have to apologize sometimes, you might have to take a time out like we do with our three year old and say, you know, why don't you go to your room for a bit and we'll reconvene later. Um, you know, if he could find some of those saving graces or a little self to appreciating humor, as Abraham Lincoln did. I mean there are ways to diffuse that and still managed around with most of the throw weight of what anger can bring you in a positive sense. Really Good for folks who are listening. Dan, of course, was our guest on this podcast back on episode. We titled that one Emotional Intelligence and the power of faces. So so we're not going to rehash a lot of the detail in it, but you've mentioned contempt several times, especially kind of like as a standout thing to really be on guard for. Can you just describe for people what contempt looks like on the face? It's a SMIRK. I sometimes joke that the distance between bankruptcy and profitability is happiness versus a smirk, because the smirk leads to divorce and I think it could lead to bankruptcy because you're not showing respect for others. But the core of the mouth rises and and goes out. But there's also a little bit of tension to it is what I always called sometimes a pocket tornado or the core of the mouth, as what can seem like a dimple, like when you're smiling, but there's just too much tension there because really, uh, happiness and anger often contribute to contempt. The happiness is the sense that you're above other people and the anger is the sense of the not worthy of you, and that's what makes it it's such a fascinating emotion. It's also very attitudinal, because you arrive at a judgment that this person is not worthy and it's really unlikely you're going to drop that or change that opinion. Quite honestly, I remember one point being in Poland and I had stayed in a wonderful teentteen century hotel. The problem was backing my car out of the parking lot or the carriageway in the morning, and it is hard to, you know, back any vehicle up when you're driving. It's much easier to go forward and people don't apologize readily in life. They don't go back and revisit their judgments easily, and so once contempt locks in, it's really hard to get rid of it. As opposed to discuss, which is also an adverse emotion where the nose might wrinkle or the upper lip curl, but that's like a reaction, often to a food item or a smell, and so it's visceral, but it can come and go. Uh. Contempt is really unique in that it's almost a mental emotion. It's it's Attitudinal Ethan. Are you really conscious of your resting faces while talking with Dan Hill? Because I'M NOT gonna lie like every time he says something like like, do I do that? Am I doing that right now? Well, Jesse, the other night I was watching CNN. It was the handoff at the nine o'clock hour between Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo, and they were trying to act, you know, like they were good buddies and so on and so forth, and maybe they are in some moments, but Chris Komo showed several instances contempt after Don Lemon needled him a bit here there or made other comments that it seemed pretty obvious to me that, you know, Cuomo was not on board for do you have a class that people can sign up for where you like quiz...

...them and show them faces and like trying to get them too, because I think that would be like, I don't I think people would pay for that. It's like how do they learn to read people as well as you do, or not as well? But fracts? Sure. Well, I've done this time with executive coaching. I have, you know, done some work with sales forces, for instance. But yes, it could be done in tutorials, you know, small pod learning environments. Uh, you know, I bring this up during speeches, you know, pretty often, because contempt is, I think, probably the most fascinating of the emotions. Yeah, well, that that kind of is a form of the question I was going to ask because you know, you've gone by a little bit on team chemistry and the the Dour said face of that player that the timber wolves were so excited to get. Um. It also goes to kind of the employee experience that we've talked about a couple of times, including working with someone like Steve Jobs and you know Steve's follow up on how do we work with that effectively? Um, can you what like, what are a couple practical tips that you found most people really benefit from across your work with regard to working with our own teams and managing our chemistry a little bit better and paying attention to the things that people don't say with their words but are saying with their faces and emotions. What are a couple of like practical, common, useful tips that, without diving deep Um, they might be able to make a better assessment today or tomorrow? Sure the first time I'm gonna started with his engagement, because your emotions turn on with something matters to you, that's memorable for you. You've got to really dig in and if you're a team leader, you're looking for engagement. If you are telling you with them about the summit, you're gonna climb. Everybody in the group has a flat affect, I think you're in trouble because they're just not summoning the emotional energy that's going to make things start to roll forward. I'd make a comparison. At one point, for a market research study, we looked at what they said verbally, you know, with a yes, no, likely to buy all that kind of stuff, and then how much emotional energy they showed in their faces. In four out of five cases when they said they were neutral, they were actually predominantly negative in their emoting. So flat affect is really bad. Negative affect is obviously bad. But in a group setting people are likely to try to suppress that, or what Dr Eckman calls a squelch. Uh. And you may camouflage that with a smile. So I think my second thing, after engagement, uh, would be to look for the camouflage. Uh. Human beings use it a lot. The smile is the most frequent thing we do. Uh. So is it a tepid smile? Is it the smile as to to quote a poem from Thomas Hardy About Two former lovers meeting one last time, and he says of her smile it was the deadest thing, with strength enough to die. I think we have all seen smiles like that. I mean they are frozen smiles. A smile also that comes on the face in a lopsided manner can suggest it's being pulled on the face. Uh, if it comes on too quickly leaves too abruptly. uh, those are troubling signs. The smile that just you know, dissipates immediately. I called the Guillotine Smile in honor of one politician who deploys a smile quite obviously but doesn't mean it. Um. So you know those, those, those are some things uh, and in terms of trying to take this team forward. The last one, I think I have to go to his fear, because fear can really be motivating because you're thinking about survival. But on the other hands, if you get what I call the e gads expression, where the mouth pulls wide, uh, they may be more concerned with failure than we're trying to grasp any opportunities. and Uh yeah, that person on your team is someone gonna have to talk to individually, maybe offline, try to,... know, buttress them to get them to have the confidence to really step in. You probably have to shield them in group meetings so they're not subject to embarrassment. Uh, you've got someone there who you're gonna just have to handle differently than someone else. Really good tips there. And, and I mean just very generically, I think the first step anyone can take is just paying more attention. You know, I think so many of us let these moments come and go without really also operating at this level where we're looking at the effect on the room of our own words and and of course, of other words, as of other people's words as well. And it kind of leads into an area that Steve and I are both very personally interested in and are excited to have you go back at. We've done it a little bit with you before, but it's this idea of Um, the way we make decisions, the fact that the vast majority of decisions are made or dramatically influenced subconscious Lee Um, in the way that we receive in process stimuli as as part of the process of assessing and making decisions. You just break down the basic structure of the brain and how we tend to operate Um, oftentimes out of our own conscious awareness. Sure, I mean the brain has a lot of plasticity to it, of course. So this is a overly simplified model, but it still has some value. You can still think of a triune brain, even though the brain science has moved beyond that, in that in the course of evolution we first had a sensory brain. You know are are, you know our ability to smell? It's actually the origins of the brain. Uh, it's still the most sense sensitive, the most intimate of the emotions. So if the hard and said I I had the capacity to smell and therefore I think and therefore I am. Uh, he would have been a lot closer to the truth. So we are much more influenced by, you know, everything from the you know, the warmth in the room or the lack of warmth, the coldness in the room, how far people are sitting away from each other, whether we have a clear sightline of the leader and feel like we can identify with, you know, what they're going through, or saying to us in a conversation. So so much of it happens at that level which we never recognize, typically because visually we're taking in so much more information, you know, pair split second they would ever have a chance to consciously process. And then the emotional brain came into existence way before the conscious rational brain, and probably one of the oldest elements in that is called the Amygdala, which are two almond shaped parts of the brain and they're really geared toward fear. And that makes a lot of sense because survival is everything. You can't move on to thriving until you can survive to be in the game. But we are emotional beings and the emotional part of the brain is older, denser. In many ways, it sends more connections forward than it receives back from the rational part of the brain. So it is much more the influencer of of those and uh, you know, that's that's something that most companies are relatively blind to. They just want to think it's all the frontal CORTEX. Thank you very much. Um, I actually want to just go back for a moment. I was thinking about like this conversation right here and how many business conversations, of course, are happening on Microsoft and zoom and and all these synchronous video platforms. You know, when you're on these platforms, I feel like you don't feel the weight of other people's eyes on you, like when you're standing in a room with someone and you're in a little circle or you're at a table, like you know, when someone's looking at you, you know more if they're paying attention. Like here, if I look at Ethan, Ethan looks like he's kind of looked looking like a little down and you know in a way which he's looking at me on the screen. But but, but, as as a human I don't feel that is it. Is it an advantage? Two, is it easier for...

...the astute person who's great at reading faces and emotions to actually communicate? And this is a total I'm just tossing this out there, but to be on zoom to pick up those emotions even easier because people are less guarded. Have you done any research or studies around around that? I have not, but I can say as a facial quota, I have no objections to zoom because it gives me the face still um and I can really isolate on that and I'm not necessarily distracted by the other elements, although I've certainly learned to fight through those over the years. But I think for most of us what happens is our our sensitivity to the situation, as you're suggesting, kind of deadens. We don't have the same sensory, you know, involvement, and so I think the mind is more more given to drifting away. We don't feel the way the dynamics and it's all different and relatively flat. I mean, you know, I love going to movies, but I really like to go to least some of them in person, with the big screen back in the day, because it's just much more enveloping. Uh, and even with a large TV, I mean it just isn't going to command the same presence, you know, as a screen in a movie house. Um, and I think it's the same way zoom can give us, you know TV or maybe you know video on our smartphone, but it doesn't give us the way to the movie theater, and I think that that does have implications, uh, certainly for how those those conversations go. Well, we started off the conversation with your book. Let's let's get back to you have an upcoming book. Uh, it's yet to be titled. You got a couple of titles floating around. What are you excited about? What's what's? Uh, I don't don't want to give a name in case it's not. It's not the name your book, not the book we did together, but your book. What are you excited about for that release, for people to read? Well, one thing is, you know, bringing humor to their workplace, because we can all sorely need that at any time, including during a pandemic Milan condera. The check writer once said don't trust anyone without a sense of humor. I never knew a KGB agent who had one. So you know, I think that the lack of humor is a side of oppression and a very rigid mindset, and I think we need to be honest, because one of things that struck me when I got into the business space, was that, uh, candor pretty much dies on the vine. UH, there's a real risk of of, you know, being forthright and you get into a lot of half truth it's kind of like living in Zoom, you know seven, because you're not fully present. At some point you're back off a bit very often and a lot of him to get lost, you know, as a consequence. So I think with humor sometimes you have the chance to to make the joke or make the insight and and take off just enough the edge so you won't get killed for doing so. And so this book is goes every place and what I really wanted to do. Well, first I should mention the inspiration for it, which was I had two people in my cod podcast on successive weeks. Neither one of them did I invoke this or invite this kind of comment, but they both noted that about bosses, uh, managers, et Cetera, are considered to be bullies, and I just thought that this is floored me. You know, why should people have to live with that? I mean, where is the HR department? Where are the senior executives? Why is no one clearing these people out? And I know for my own instances before I started running a company, and hopefully I wasn't a bully. Uh, I certainly try not to be, but about my bosses were bullies, and so I was kind of ruminating on that and then I thought of my or my favorite book, which is the Devil's dictionary by Ambrose Bears, who was a contemporary of Mark Twain. It's considered one of the hundred greatest pieces of American literature. It's full of diabolical definitions like uh Yankee, no such things, see damn Yankee. Uh Dentists, someone who puts metal in your mouth while taking gold from your pocket, and so on and so forth, and it's a wonderful book, and I just said here's my way to maybe going after the bullies. Let's shame them, let's expose them in some ways, but let's also expose a lot of, you know, kind...

...of unfortunate, if even outright ugly things that happened, uh, in terms of office politics or in terms of how we don't give the customers that do they should, but we'll do with humor Um. And so I invited people in because you know, I'm just one white guy getting a little older, and I said I need younger people, I need women, I want minorities, I have people from other continents. I wanted the richness of all the experiences and perspectives that people could offer, and so the book of the end has fifty contributors, as well as Howard Moscow wit's a famous, legendary researcher who know who, I'm gladwell profiled, and I just said have at it, submit what you want. I got eighteen hundred submissions. I took about six hundred in the end, but you know, humors tricky. You know you watch Colbert, even even the masters don't always have the best lines fed to them by their writers. So Um, you know, it involved a lot of effort, in the end, ten months, but time. I think it's a really good book, just lacking and title so far. Yeah, it's I'm excited about the concept. I think it is fun. When I think about some of the favorite my favorite stage presentations and when I think about some of my favorite business books that I've read, I'm thinking of rework by the guys at thirty seven signals, who have had a recent dust up on a different theme. But Um, you know, it's like stand up comedy, but not for a mainstream audience. It's for, like, you know, essentially business professionals. It's like stand up comedy for business professionals and it's so helpful because, to your point, Dan, it it makes light of things that we all know, our problems. That allows us to it creates a platform potentially to have conversation about it, but but to do it in a way that, Um, you know, invites people who might not otherwise participate or speak up, because now we're all smiling in in a common experience of yeah, that is what that really means or that is how that really goes. Yeah, and it's lessing. So the very first one I started with was diversity. UH, in senior management, a short white guy, because the truth is that's often the case. I mean I've seen it time and again. Um, and the women who participated, you know, when you gave them a chance to choose whatever definition they want to go after, whatever term. You know, level playing field was one that a lot of the female contributors said. I've gotta take a whack at that one, because there is no way in the world that's a level playing field. Um. So, but then the question gets to be, can they do with some humor as opposed to just saying I am so frustrated. You know that I'm going to runt here a little bit. So that that was part of the editing of the book, trying to, you know, find the right voices for for different comments. Awesome. Well, when we post this UH TO UH bomb dot com slash podcast, we round up a bunch of links. was certainly linked to the book and certainly with its its final title. It will be linked up there too. Dan, let's talk for a minute about human center communication, which is the title of the book that Steve and I co authored with the great help of you in ten of your other UH peers as business experts, uh, in your own fields here here. Obviously, yours is facial coding and emotional intelligence. There's so much good stuff. I love the chapter that we put together around all the information you shared. As you look at the project on the whole, is there any topic or is there another person or any themes that you're particularly interested in, UH, in this forthcoming book? Sure, another contribut years, Adam, uh don't remember his last time, is a contros. Yes, Adam contest Um, talking about emotional brilliance, because I think some people might think that, you know, having a q is is fine. It might be a nice parlor trick, but it really has no particular utility. And he's really making the point that you do want to Suss that what people are feeling and what's their reality, but you're doing it on behalf of getting to an objective. So...

...there really is a point to this. And emotional brilliance means and and he says one of his inspirations was Cathy Greenberg, who had endorsed my book emotion armics, and she was really intent on what was the company culture. So yes, you can apply emotional brilliance as a manager. You can do with a colleague you and try to use it frankly and getting hired into a position and trying to read who's across the table from you. But most of all, I think it is incumbent. Ultimately, are on the executive team from whoever runs C X and who they bring in and the vision they have, but all throughout the company. But that company culture, uh, you know, too often the default is that it's a passive aggressive culture. Uh, and I know that because USA Today, at one point UH invited people to give definitions of their company culture and they had a whole range of possibilities. But over a third of them shows passive aggressive. Uh. And you know, passive aggressive is not fun to experience. It's a series of little rabbit punches followed by a body blow somewhere down the down the line. Um, surely we can do better. It's the same thing as bully bosses. ME. Why do we have to settle for this kind of mediocrity and malevolence? We just shouldn't. Yeah, it's really great take and I love that you re emphasized that point on bullies. Um. You know, the theme of this book is how do we treat people? One of the themes is how do we treat people like people? Obviously you're an important voice in it, Dan. I love that you picked out that detail from the Chapter With Adam Kantos, Chapter Seven, emotional brilliance and of course, the relationship that you have with, uh, Dr Cathy Greenberg, who he again credited that with. Um. So, for folks who are listening, we are interviewing all eleven of the expert friends that we invited into human center communication. Dan just mentioned Adam Kantos, the CEO of Remax. He'll be coming up in a few weeks. Coming up to is Mario Martinez Jr, the founder and CEO of Van Gre so, Julie Hansen, who was a professional actress and salesperson turned kind of video trainer, which she talks a lot about. Presents, which came up, like being present and having presents, Um, which came up in this conversation today. And if you want to get going on and even missed any of these, we've already released conversations with Morgan j Ingram, who has done produced more than ten thousand videos for the purpose of building relationships and increasing revenue. He's also a three time linkedin top sales voice. Um Lauren Bailey, president and founder of factory and Girls Club, Matthew Sweezy of salesforce, who recently appeared on your podcast, Dan, so got yeah, awesome and uh so we've got. We've got a really great set of folks here on a really important conversation and again, Dan, thanks for being part of it. Before we let you go, Steve's got some questions for you. It's a two partner. It's only two. thanker. Mentioned someone that's had a big impact on your life and or career and then to give us a nod or a shout out to a company or a brand that just provided an amazing customer experience. who were you wowed by recently? Um, it came just before Covid I. I bicycle a lot if I'm not playing tennis, and down the street there's a bike shop. So this is not a national brand, this is shop locally, but called grand performance because they're located on Grand Street. But when you go in the reason why they have that name in parts because normally they sell to like really serious bicyclists, you know, the type that are competing in races and competitions. So I would be kind of, you know, small fry as far as they were concerned. But I was so impressed with the fact that they brought their same knowledge and concerned to me, as I could see there they were having for the more serious cyclist, Um, and so there was the knowledge and the personal warmth and the knowledge wasn't just thrown off at me like I gone to two other bike shops before I came to this one, and the first place they didn't... about me at all and the second place they tried to upsell me really aggressively. They probably concluded that, you know, maybe I was a little bit older than some of the other buyers and I had more of a wallet and they were going to give as much of it as they possibly could. And you know, I was trying to explain to him what my biking habits were, which is, you know, fifteen minutes to an hour most days of the week, sometimes two bike rides a day, but I'm not going out on fourteen miles drives in the countryside. And this person was way beyond what I was seeking. So when I got to the right place, Um, it just it just felt right. At no point that I feel like they were pushing an agenda, that they lost sight of what I needed and who I was. UH, they were personable but you know, they just they wore their knowledge on their sleeve in the nicest of ways. So do you also have a positive impact on your life for a career? That was a great brand one. Well, all sorts of people, but I don't know who I mentioned if we ever came back to this question before, but I would have to go back to the person named Joe Rich, because I started my company sensory logic. He's the one who kept me from making a terrible mistake. I had pulled together, uh, you know methodology, and someone just said you know methodists, that is the corporate version of people into methodologies. But you know, Joe said, if you ask people to think their feelings, you're not really going to make progress. And so many of the methodologies out there that tried to go into the brain science work only kind of did it with one toe in the water. I mean there was one company, I won't mention them by name, but they actually showed people faces and said which emotion do you feel? Well, that depends on people having the emotional ability alacrity to figure out how they're feeling and then identify a photograph. But the whole thing was thrown Kitty wampus by the fact that the photographs weren't actually accurate. One of them that's had a neutral face actually showed sadness, for instance, Um and another one showed multiple emotions, like which one am I going to choose here? So it was Joe who really had the humanity to say you've got to push further, but you but you gotta do in a way that gets the intimate feeling story beyond what people can articulate and so I will be eternally grateful for him, uh, disabusing me of the methodology I thought I was going to have in favor of superior one, which he didn't tell me how to find it. You just said you gotta go locate at someplace. So good, uh, Dan. If people want to learn more about you, sensory logic, which you just told like a really, I hadn't heard that before. You did mention Joe rich last time, but not the way he influenced you, you know, at the onset of of doing your thing with sensory logic. But people want to follow up with you sensory logic, Dan Hills, eq spotlight, a podcast that I am a listener of, Um, or any of the other projects you've got going on. Where would you send people? Well, the website is the obligatory three WS and sensory logic dot com, and that's simple enough. The podcast that you've generously mentioned is on the new books network, which is actually the world's largest book review platform, with over one point seven million downloads a month. So I am in a special series category. In fact I was the original special series, uh, and then he allowed other people to follow my initiative. Uh So it's a very far, you know, far ranging. UH, podcast labba on business, but not all of it. Sometimes have cultural figures. I have a woman up very shortly who's one of the genius googgenheim grant winners. Um, so, Um, you know, I I go for the variety when I when it seems appropriate or intriguing to me. Um, beyond that, sure that this next book when it comes out, but all that stuff is on the website. So I think you're taking those two things and you've got a reasonable handle. Once you want to come to my house for dinner. Okay, I will invite myself. The next time I am in the Upper Midwest, I will invite myself. Well, well, probably more attractively. I also went her in Palm Springs area and you might want to. You might want to get away to that more readily. Yeah, this depends on the time of the year. Uh Dan, this... Super Fun. Thank you for spending time with us again. This is probably the fourth or Fifth Hour I've spent in your presence, not counting listening to your podcast, Um, and it's always a pleasure and we appreciate your insights and appreciate your support of human centered communication. Absolutely. There's nothing more important. I mean, we, we, this is how we live our lives. We've spent a lot of it at work and if we're not, we're customers very often. I mean, this stuff really matters and uh, if only we were more human centric. That was my original mission into coming into business was to humanize the business world. So, uh, you know, basically, I guess I can hand off the baton to you guys at this point, not without your help. Appreciate it. In the future will be virtually selling and serving more often, but the channels we're trying to connect and communicate through, our noisy and polluted and our faithless digital communication, is both visually and emotionally impoverished. So how do we stand out? How do we truly connect? How do we make people feel like people and not like numbers? Get answers to these questions and more from more than a dozen experts, including a marketing futurist from salesforce, the first salesperson at Hubspot, two co founders of Ven Gresso and an emotional intelligence expert with seven US patents. In the analysis of facial coding data by the Wall Street Journal Bestseller Human Centered Communication a business case against digital pollution. Learn more about human centered communication at BOM BOMB DOT COM slash book. That's BOM bomb dot com slash book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by sub driving right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bomb bomb dot com slash podcasts. H.

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