The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 153 · 4 weeks ago

153. Emotional Intelligence & Human-Centered Connection w/ Dan Hill

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Here are three quick ways to better assess what people are saying with their faces and emotions (aka facial coding). Pay attention to engagement, the camouflage smile, and the two-sided impact of fear.

The face is the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to the skin. Most of us aren’t aware of what we’re giving away.

In the fifth episode of our Human-Centered Connection expert series, Steve Pac inelli and I interview Dan Hill, PhD, President a t Sensory Logic, about emoti onal intelligence and facial coding.

Dan spoke with us about:

- How to imbue a mission into work for employee retention

- Why contempt and sadness can be dangerous emotions

- What to do to raise our emotional literacy

- How Steve Jobs illustrates the positive and negative sides of anger

- Why emotions stand apart from the rational parts of the brain

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Dan Hill, PhD (LinkedIn) 

- Sensory Logic 

- Grand Performance  

- Episode 75: Emotional Intelligence and The Power of Faces 

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Sometimes we're not nearly asemotionally literate as we are otherwise literate. We don't, I mean,understand the implications of what we're giving away the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host, Ethan Beaute, welcome back to the Human Center CommunicationSeries here on the customer experience podcast. What is it? I've got a CO host,Steve, Passini, longtime friend, long time, team, member CO, author of a bookcalled Rehumanize Business and Co author of a forthcoming book calledHuman Centered Communication, WE'RE CO hosting this summer together and we'rehosting our eleven expert friends that we brought into that book, they're allin the book and so we'd like to learn more from them. This is complimentaryinformation. It's not redundant, we're learning more about them and theirbackgrounds Steve. Could we have the privilege of spending time with today?Oh, that would be Mr Dan Hill and when we were talking about who we want tohave contribute to the book and, of course, in this podcast Dan was on thevery very short list, because we're talking about human centercommunication, we want the guy who's, an expert in analyzing emotions, facialexpressions, personality traits, he analyzes emotions and business figures.Historical figures he's written is it ten books? Ten Ninth Book is on the way.Ninth Book is on the way nine books and he's the president of century sensorylogic. He's got seven facial the coding, patens and he's been on a myriad ofdifferent shows, like Fox and PBS and CNN and Good Morning, America on thetopics of facial emotions or facial expressions and emotions, so Dan Hill.Welcome back to the show. Oh absolutely...

...thank you for taking me under the earyeah, we is Steve, said definitely short list a it's right in the zone ofwhat we're trying to explore within four people, which is how to connectand communicate more effectively, even when we're restricted to these virtualenvironments and looking forward to getting into somematerial here today that we're familiar with, because Steve and I are very avidlisteners and readers of the things that you do even probably beyond yourawareness but will before we get into some of those ten sounds scary, butokay, fandom Notaio, but Dan will start wherewe started with you last time here on this show and where we start everyepisode, which is customer experience when I say customer experience, whatdoes that mean to you Dan? Well, I'm actual her a quote from my friend JoePie, because I'm producing a book that started with the working title, theDevil's dictionary of work, life and commerce, and I invited people tosubmit diabolical definitions. And so I wasn't too surprised and then again Iwas totally surprised that Joe Pine came back with the customer experience.What executives say they're focused on when they think no one will lookclosely, because the reality is that obviouslythe customer experience, along with your employee experience, should beabsolutely central to how you view your organization and yet, unfortunately, inso many cases it just doesn't happen. So I would say that the customerexperiences in many way the emotions you give people along with the productsand services and the emotions are likely to be as or more memorable thanthe actual product and its processes. And yet, unfortunately, that gets leftby the wayside because it costs money. It involves trading. It involves caringabout your personnel who are involved, I'm reading a book right now by theformer sea of of best by and they bought a company that was looking afterthe experience of elderly people at home and trying to make sure that theywere safe and comfortable and they were...

...shocked when they were venting thecompany, because the turnover rate at the company was merely two percent twopercent, and the reason for that was because the people felt that their jobswere important. They were actually adding value to other people's livesthat they were a savior, a guardian of these elderly. They obviously had theirown grandparents, and so there was a mission to the job and that transformedit all by itself and if only CEO, to pay more attention to having that kindof a spree to core, then the customer experience would be an awful lot betterthan it often is yeah really good. Well done Dan, specifically doing themention of the mechanics but really leaning into the feelings and theemotions, and the long term consequences of when we can connectwith people positively and emotionally. Also for folks who are listening, whoaren't familiar Jo Pine, is one of the two co authorsof the experience economy and absolutely critical book. The sleptdown for not slept down, but like it's, I feel like it's more c celebratedtoday than it was a decade ago and it was published twenty years ago. Dan isa friend of JOE's and I think Joe's been on your podcast Dan Hills. Qspotlight once or twice he has been in Joan. I've been friends for twentyyears, and you know when the book originally came out. I thought it wasan important book, but this is one of the rare cases where a book went into asecond and third edition where the addition had actually gotten strongerand they admitted what they were on the podcast that some other people started.Looking in the book and say it's getting a little long in the tots andsome things are obsolete and they really took the charge seriously wentback and I think, really upgraded the book Nice. So an our upcoming, both theone that you so graciously decided to help us out with. We mention your workin politics and sports and business and other industries give the listenersjust a bit a background about that work, or if you could share a couple stories.You know about your work in politics or sports that people might be familiarwith sure. Well, let's start with politics, so I have gone through itactually facey covered every US...

...president ever and I discovered thatthe most reliable indicator that they would be an unsuccessful president. Asyou know, determined by you know, presidential historians would besadness and sadness as an emotion tends to slow you down so also in sports.I've found that this is not very conducive to being an NBA star, forinstance, so it slows you down physically and mentally, and itpotentially has the avenge of making you more empathetic, but it could alsomake you listless, and the one thing that happens to being president isessential, especially if your president, United States is your job description,encompasses every problem that exists in the world, because America has sucha big footprint. You know that if the Israelis and a Moscato war, suddenlythat's on your plate as president, so being listless is not a luxury you getto have as President United States now. Abraham Lincoln, of course, is one ofmy greatest presidents and he did have a lot of sadness in his face, but theCorralat to that or the thing that offset it was. He also had a reallygood sense of humor, including you know, self depreciation, and so you balancethe Tude. I think that in that civil war, the empathetic qualities ofsadness were able to come through for him in terms of his forgiveness at theend of the war, in the terms that he was offering the south, but he alsohave the ability to fortunately take in the foibles of his many generals andkeep moving till he got to grant as opposed to the other people theycertainly shouldn't sell for. So I've noticed that, and I, as I said, Imentioned it in sports at one point I was doing some work for the MinesotaTimber Wolves and they brought it a guy from the New York Nicks, who was sixsix and the general manager was just gliding about the fact that he made asteel. In his opinion, this is a someone who could play maybe threedifferent positions on the court. Well, I looked at the guy that I thought. Oh,my God, it's a disaster in the making. He had the saddest face. I'd ever seenother than maybe chief rain in the face.

...who was a colleague of sitting bull andhe was, he was lock room poison. He was ineffective on the cord, I mean he justhe was so listless so despondent. He didn't bring any one with him in theexperience, and so it's not only for yourself, but it's the contagiouseffect. You have on your teammates on your department, members and so forth,because emotions are incredibly contagious, but why are we so bit like?Why was the coach so bad or why are human so bad at like picking up onthose? You would think that's an incredibly important skill to have tolike recognize that in someone else and make the appropriate choice. Where dowe go veho? Well this case the gentle manager was a lawyer, so that means you're setting. You knowprecedence and court law and so forth and and you you would think, if you'rea great courtroom attorney, you would really pick this up well and run withit. But that wasn't this person's background, but I have done some workin law if we want to go over in that field for just a second sure it was aninstance where he was now the most major suit against the Catholic Churchthat was settled out of court for obviously you some of things going onwith the priests and so forth, and the person who handled the case said to me.Well, the number two in charge of the diocese is the most inscrutable personI've ever had to deal with, and I said well, no one's inscrutable just get mea chance. I say you got some video tape. Right did disposition deposition forthis person. It turns out this was Obama's chief of staffs brother and hewas a very sharp guy, but the face gives it away, and I said, here's yourroad map. I found fifteen segments where this is where I would go back andI pursue the line of questioning. You know the person showed contempt, maybeeven for themselves, because they knew they were lying or Offian. This iswhere they were nervous there. This is where their anger was kind of out ofbounds and they're being you know, defensive and pushing back too hard thekind of losing their cool. These are the hot spots. The Road Map too goafter this case, so in every instance,...

...there's some application, obviously toemotions. I want to twist Steve's question the other way, whereas it, whyare we so bad at reading these, and now I want to go to this guy here talkingabout who is essentially giving himself away like why don't we have morecontrol over our emotions, especially when it's going to? Obviously thisperson was, let's just assume this person was obfuscating for some reasonor another. You know it's to his benefit to do that effectively and yethe didn't you, could you a trained professional could easily come up withmultiple instances where his face belies his words or sometimes even hisactions like. Why can't we hide this better well. The first reason is thatthe face is the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to theskin. So Dr Paul Ekman calls it leakage that we give away information. I knowit sounds like it depends commercial, but you know that it's leaky, so wegive away things on our face and that we don't even realize we're giving away.The second thing is: This was a very smart person. I have no doubt of thatreal felicity with words, but sometimes we're not nearly as emotionallyliterate as we are otherwise literate. We don't, I mean, understand theapplications of what we're giving away and I always go back to contempt,because it's really ultimately the most important emotion. It means I don'trespect you. I don't trust you. I find you beneath me, and that was somewhat.This person gave away the case that should command your empathy. In fact, Idid the work pro bono because I had had a friend who had been molested and Ihad seen the devastation in this person's life. has they veered fromeverything from being a fundamentalist to a Marxist in between an alcoholicand a very smart and good person, but they just couldn't find a rudder inlife, and if you looked back and I knew the person's parents, they werewonderful, nice, solid, childhood. Nothing was amiss except this oneincident, and so for that reason I...

...offered my services. So if any casewhere you should not be showing contempt, it should have been a caselike this ye had the person just treated the whole incident. That waythat mean there was far more contempt on the face I mean had it gone to trial.I think this person would have been a devastating witness against his owncase, because I don't think a jury would have found that kind of arroganceacceptable. I want to change ges just for a quick second, because youmentioned in the in the book or in our interview, the previous interview,Steve Jobs. O talked a lot about him, having an angry face, and one thing that, as I re watched, theinterview- and I re watched it again today and I was like man- we shouldhave asked these. This follow up question to that, because you knowobviously was a tough person to work with. I D want to tie this intoemployee experience and customer experience here. You know he was atough person to work with. He had an emotional baseline of anger most of thetime. How can people take that understand that and then use it effectively like? How would someonecommunicate with someone that is angry or and at a part too, if they coulddecode that their face wasn't angry at the time? How would they respond andcommunicate? You have tips around communicating communicating with thetype of people in their natural state sure. Well, I think, on Steve Josbehalf. The first thing I would say is that every emotion has a positive sideand a negative side to it, and so we often talk about anger management,which casts anger as this problematic, emotion, and God knows it can be. Buton the positive side it means that I also may be want to break throughbarriers that I want to control my own destiny that I want to push fartherharder better more successfully. So you for those who work for Steve Jobs. Iknew someone who was actually kind of in his senior team for a while. He saidit was a. It was a privilege to be in...

...this company because you knew you had agenius. You knew that he wouldn't set settle for low standards and it wasbreath taking to witness his drive. On the other hand, it was exhausting- andeventually this person said that you know you know three years or five years,whatever it was was enough and before I was completely burnt to to crisp as atoast. You know I had to get out of there, but I think as a leader, if youcan keep them reminded of that mission, that goal that glory mean people liketo have a sense of purpose in their life and if we can only get a moment inthe sunshine of having some glory or basking in a refracted way to someoneelse as glory Steve Jobs, glory apples glory, I mean, I think that can carrypeople a fairly good way. As long as you don't go to the emotion. I justmentioned contempt, because if you then say well, you're part of the problem,you're part of the mediocrity, the part of. What's letting us not break throughthese barriers, then you're going to lose those people- and you know they're,going to feell under attack. So I think that's the kind of finessing that thatkind of leader should do and they can make it feel exciting and we're in thisand not be in the act of seemingly throwing people off the boat to thesharks. The whole thing's going to go more successfully for everyone, who's,not named Steve Jobs. So you don't have to wait for an emotional change. Thereare always ways that, depending on their demeanor to communicate with thatperson in there now, I think you want to you want, in that case evasive.What's the positives of this emotion, I mean, if it's so central to who you areso intrinsic. You may just not be able to authentically you. Take it out ofthe equation, so you least got to emphasize where it has positives thatit brings, and maybe you have to I don't know if jobs ever managed to dothis, but you might have to apologize. Sometimes you might have to take a timeout like we do with our three year old and say you know why don't you go toyour room for a bit and will reconvene later? You know if he could find someof those saving graces or a little self depreciating humor, as Abraham Lincolndid I mean there are ways to diffuse...

...that and still manage your wrong withmost of the throw weight of what anger can bring you in a positive sense,really good for folks who were listening Dan. Of course, was our gueston this podcast back on episode, Seventy Five. We titled that oneEmotional Intelligence and the power of faces so we're not going to rehash alot of the detail in it, but you've mentioned contempt several times,especially kind of like as a standout thing to really be on guard. For. Canyou just describe for people? What contempt looks like on the face? It's aSMIRK. I sometimes joke that the difference between bankruptcy andprofitability is happiness versus a smirk, because the smirk leads todivorce and I think it can lead to bankruptcy because you're not showingrespect for others, but the core of the mouth rises and and goes out, butthere's also a little bit of attention to. It is what I always called.Sometimes I pocket Tornado or the core of the mouth as what can seem like adimple like when you're smiling, but there's just too much tension there,because really happiness and anger often contribute to contempt. Thehappiness is a sense that you're above other people and the anger, is a senseof they're not worthy of you and that's what makes it it's such a fascinatingemotion. It's also very attitudinal because you arrive at a judgment thatthis person is not worthy and it's really unlikely you're going to dropthat or change that opinion. Quite honestly, I can remember one pointbeing in Poland, and I'd stayed in a wonderful seventeen century hotel. Theproblem was bark backing my car out of the parking lot or the carriage way inthe morning, and it is hard to back any vehicle up when you're driving it'smuch easier to go forward and people don't apologize readily in life. Theydon't go back and revisit their judgments easily and so once contemptlocks in it's really hard to get rid of it, as opposed to discuss, which isalso a reverse emotion, where the nose might rinkle the upper lip curl, butthat's like a reaction, often to a food...

...item or a smell, and so it's this role,but it can come and go. Contempt is really unique in that it's almost amental emotion. It's attitudinal super good. Are you really conscious of yourresting faces while talking began? He because I'm not going to lie like everytime he says something like like do I do that? Am I doing that it just the other night I was watchingsand. It was the hand off at the nine o'clock hour between Don Lemon andChris Cormel, and they were trying to act. You know like they were good,buddies and so on and so forth, and maybe they are in some moments thatChris Como showed several instances contempt after don lemon needles, him abit here or there or made other comments that it ll seem pretty obviousto me that you know Como was not on board for do you have a class thatpeople can sign up for where you like quiz them and show them faces and liketry to get them to, because I think that would be like. I don't thinkpeople would pay for that. It's like how do they learn to read people aswell as you do, or not as well, but federal? Well, I've done it. Some withexecutive coaching, I have, you know, done some work with sales forces, forinstance, but yes, it could be done in tutorials. You know small pod learningenvironments. I bring this up during speeches pretty often because contemptis, I think, probably the most fascinating of the emotions yeah. Well,that kind of is a form of the question I was going to ask because you knowyou've gone by a little bit on team chemistry and the the Dower said faceof that player that those timber wolves were so excited to get, but also goesto kind of the employee experience that we've talked about a couple of times,including working with someone like Steve Jobs, and you know Steve, followup on. How do we work with that effectively? What are a couplepractical tips that you found? Most people really benefit from an acrossyour work with regard to working with our own teams and managing ourchemistry, a littlea bit better and...

...paying attention to the things thatpeople don't say with their words but are saying with their faces andemotions. What are a couple like practical, common, useful tips thatwithout diving deep, they might be able to make a better assessment today or tomorrow sure, although the first time I I start with his engagement, becauseyour emotions turn on with something matters to you, that's memorable foryou. You got to really dig in and if you're a team leader you're looking forengagement, if you are telling you of them about the summit you're going toclimb everybody in the group has a flat affect, I think, you're in troublebecause they're just not summoning the emotional energy, that's going to makethings start to roll forward. I'd make a comparison to one point for a marketresearch study. We looked at what they said verbally yeah. Were they yes, nolikely to buy all that kind of stuff and then how much emotional energy theyshowed in their faces in four out of five cases when they said they wereneutral, they were actually predominantly negative in their emoting,so flat affect is really bad. Negative affect is obviously bad, but in a groupsetting people are likely to try to suppress that or what Dr Amon calls asquelch and you may kioff that with a smile. So I think my second thing afterengagement would be to look for the CARAFA. Even beings use it a lot, thesmiles, the most frequent thing we do so is it a tepid smile? Is it the smileas to de quote a poem from Thomas Hardy, about two former lovers meeting onelast time and he says of her smile? It was the deadest thing with strengthenough to die. I think we have all seen smiles like that. I mean they arefrozen. Smiles smile also, that comes on the face in a lopsided manner, cansuggest its being pulled on the face. If it comes on too quickly leaves toabruptly those are troubling signs, the...

...smile that just you know dissipatesimmediately, I call the Guillotine Smile in honor of one politician whodeploys a smile- quite obviously, but doesn't mean it. So you know those those are some thingsand in terms of trying to take this team forward the last time, then I haveto go to his fear because fear can really be motivating because you'rethinking about survival, but on the other hands. If you get what I call thee gats expression where the mouth pulls wide, they may be more concerned withfailure than with trying to grasp any opportunities and yeah that person onyour team is someone you're going to have to talk to individually? Maybeoffline, try to you know buttress them to get them to have the confidence toreally step in. You probably have to shield them in group meeting so they'renot subject to embarrassment. You got someone there who you're going to justhave to handle differently than someone else really good tips there, and I meanjust very generically. I think the first step anyone can take is justpaying more attention. You know, I think so many of us let these momentscome and go without really also operating at this level, where we'relooking at the effect on the room, he of our own words or any and, of course,of other people's words as well, and it kind of leads into an area that Steve-and I are both very personally interested in and are excited to tohave you go back at we've, done it a little bit with you before, but it'sthis idea of the way we make decisions. The fact that the vast majority ofdecisions are made or dramatically influence subconsciously and the waythat we receive and process stimuli as part of the process of assessing andmaking decisions. He just break down the basic structure of the brain andhow we tend to operate oftentimes out of our own. You conscious awarenesssure I mean the brain has a lot of plasticity to the course. So this is aoverly simplified model, but it still has some value. You can still think ofa triune brain, even though the brain...

...science has moved beyond that in that,in the course of evolution, we first had a sensory brain. You know ourability to smell is actually the origins of the brain, it's still themost sense sensitive, the most intimate of the emotions. So if the carded saidI have the capacity to smell and therefore I think and therefore I am,you would have been a lot closer to the truth. So we are much more influencedby you know everything from the warmth of the room or the lack of warmth, thecoldness in the room, how far people are sitting away from each other,whether we have a clear sightlines of the leader and feel like we canidentify with you know what they're going through or saying to us in aconversation. So so much of it happens at that level, which we never recognize.Typically because usually we're taking in so much more information you, noparent split. Second, they would ever have a chance to consciously process,and then the emotional brain came into existence, whey before the conscious,rational brain and probably one off the oldest elements in that is called theAmiga, which are two Al Moncha parts of the brain and they're really gearedtoward fear, and that makes a lot of sense because survival is everythingyou can't move on to thriving until you can survive to be in the game, but weare emotional beings and the emotional part of the brain is older denser inmany ways it sends more connections forward than it receives back from therational part of the brain. So it is much more the influencer of those andthat's something that most companies are relatively blind to. They just wantto think it's all the frontal CORTEX. Thank you very much. I actually want tojust go back for a moment. I was thinking about like this conversationright here and how many business conversations of course are happeningon Microsoft and zoom, and and all thesesynchronising you know when you're on these platforms, I feel, like you,don't feel the weight of other people's...

...eyes on you like when you're standingin a room with someone and you're in a little circle or you're at a table likeyou know when someone's looking at you, you know more if they're payingattention like here. If I look at eth and Ethan looks like he's kind of looklooking like a little down and you know and away which she's looking at me onthe screen, but but but as a human, I don't feel that is it. Is it easier forthe astute person who's great at reading, faces and emotions to actuallycommunicate, and this is a total I'm just tossing this out there, but to beon zoom to pick up those emotions even easier, because people are less guarded.Have you done any research or studies around around that I have not, but Ican say, as a facial cot, I have no objections to zoom because it gives methe face still and I can really isolate on that and I'm not necessarilydistracted by the other elements, although I've certainly learned tofight through those over the years, but I think for most of us what happens isour sensitivity to the situation as you're suggesting kind of DEDANS. Wedon't have the same sensory involvement, and so I think the mind is more givento drifting away. We don't feel the way, the dynamics, it's all different andrelatively flat. I mean you know I love going to movies, but I really like togo to leave some of them in person with the big screen back in the day Ye,because it's just much more enveloping and even with a large TV mean it justisn't going to command the same presence. You know as a screen in amovie house when I think it's the same way. Zoom can give us. You know TV, ormaybe you know, video on our smartphone, but it doesn't give us the way to themovie theater, and I think that that does have implications terly for howthose conversations go when we started off the conversation with your book, Let's get back to you havean upcoming book. It's yet to be titled. You got a couple titles floating around.What are you excited about? What's? What's I don't want to give a name incase? It's not it's not a your go, not...

...the book. We did together, but yourbook. What are you excited about for that release for people to read? Well,one thing: is you bringing humor to the workplace because we can all sorelyneed that at any time in clean during a pandemic, melancon era, the checkwriter one said: Don't trust anyone without a sense of humor? I never knewa KGB agent who had one. So you know, I think, that the lack ofhumor is a side of oppression and a very rigid mindset, and I think we needto be honest, because one of things that struck me when I got into thebusiness space was that candor pretty much dies on the vine. There's, a realrisk of you know being forth right and you get into a lot of half truth iskind of like living and zoom. You know twenty four seven, because you're notfully present at some point you back off a bit very often and allow him toget lost as a consequence, so I think with humor. Sometimes you have thechance to make the joke or make the insight and take off just enough theend, so you won't get killed for doing so, and so this book is goes everyplace and what I really wanted to do. Well, first, I should mention theinspiration for it, which was. I had two people in my podcast on successiveweeks. Neither one of them did I invoke this or invite this kind of comment,but they both noted that about twenty five percent of bosses managers et ceare considered to be bullies, and I just thought that does it floored me,you know why should people have to live with that? Where is the H R department?Where are the senior executives? Why is no one clearing these people out, and Iknow from my own instance as before I started running a company and hopefullyI wasn't a bully I so he tried not to be but about forty percent of my bosseswere bullies, and so I was kind of ruminating on thatand then I thought of my er, my favorite book, which is the Devil'sdictionary by Ambrose Beers, who is a contemporary of Mark Twain. That'sconsider one of the hundred greatest pieces of American literature. It'sfull of diabolical definitions like Yankee. No such thing see damn Yankeedentist, someone who puts metal in your...

...mouth while take in God for your pocketand so on and so forth, and it's a wonderful book and I just said tohere's my way to maybe going after the bullies. Let's shame them, let's exposethem in some ways, but let's also expose a lot of you know kind ofunfortunate of even outright ugly things that happen in terms of office,politics or terms of how we don't give the customers that do they should, butwe'll do with humor, and so I invited people in because you know I'm just onewhite guy getting a little older and I said I need younger people. I needwomen that want minorities. I have people from other continents. I wantedthe richness of all the experiences in perspectives that people could offer,and so the book of the end has fifty contributors as well as Howard,Moscowitz, a famous legendary researcher who know who'm, glad wellprofiled and I just said have at it submit what you want. I got eighteenhundred submissions I took about six hundred in the end, but you know humortricky you watch Cobert, even even the masters, don't always have the bestlines fed to them by their writers. So you know it involved a lot of effort inthe end ten months, but I think it's a really good book just lacking and dialso far. Yeah. It's I'm excited about the concept. I think it is fun when Ithink about some of the FA, my favorite stage presentations and when I thinkabout some of my favorite business books that I've read I'm thinking of rework by the guys at thirty seven signals who've had a recent dust up ona different theme, but it's like stand up comedy, but not for a mainstreamaudience. It's for, like you, know, essentially business professionals.It's like stand up comedy for business professionals and it's so helpfulbecause to your point Dan, it makes light of things that we all know ourproblems. It allows us to create a platform potentially to haveconversation about it, but to do it in a way that you know invites people whomight not otherwise participate or speak up, because now we're all smilingin a common experience of yeah. That is...

...what that really means yeah and it's inhow that really goes yeah and it's left threading. So the very first one Istarted with was diversity in senior management, a short white guy, becausethe truth is that's often the case I mean I've, seen it time and again, andthe women who participated you when you gave them a chance to choose whateverdefinition they want to go after whatever term you know, level playingfield was one that a lot of the female contribuer said. I've got to take awhack at that one, because there is no way in the world. That's a levelplaying field, but then the question gets to be: can they do with some humorand supposed just say I am so frustrated. You know that I'm I'm goingto rent here a little bit, so that was part of the editing of the book. Tryingto find the right voices for different comments awesome well, when we postthis to Bob Bomo podcast, we round up a bunch of links, was certainly linked tothe book and certainly with its its final title. It'll be linked up theretoo. Dan. Let's talk for a minute about human center communication, which isthe title of the book that Steve and I co authored, with the great help of youand ten of your other peers as business experts in your own fields or here.Obviously, yours is facial coding and emotional intelligence, there's so muchgood stuff. I love the chapter that we put together around all the informationyou shared as you look at the project on a whole. Is there any topic or isthere another person or any themes that you're particularly interested in inthis forthcoming book? Sure another contibutor's Adam so mere was last time?Is it contras? Yes, Adam conto see yeah so talking about emotional brilliance,because I think some people might think that having e q is fine, it might be anice parlor trick, but it really has no particular utility and he's reallymaking the point that you do want to Susa what people are feeling and what'stheir reality, but you're doing it on...

...behalf of getting to an objective. Sothere really is a point to this and emotional brilliance means that, and hesays one of his inspirations was Kathy Greenberg, who had endorsed by book.Emotion, omics and she was really intent on what was the company culture.So, yes, you can apply emotional brilliance as a manager. You can do itwith a college. You would try to use it frankly and getting hired into aposition and trying to read who's across the table from you. But most ofall, I think, is incumbent ultimately on the executive team from whoever runscx and who they bring in and the vision they have, but all throughout thecompany, but that company culture too often the default is that it's apassive, aggressive culture, and I know that because USA Today one pointinvited people to give definitions of their company culture and they had awhole range of possibilities, but over a third of them chose passiveaggressive and you know, passive aggressive is notfun to experience. I I A series a little rabbit punches, followed by abody blow somewhere down the road down the line. Surely we can do better? It'sthe same thing as bully bosses be. Why do we have to settle for this kind ofmediocrity and malevolence? We just shouldn't yeah, I really great take,and I love that you re emphasize that point on bully's. You know the theme ofthis book is: How do we treat people? One of the themes is: How do we treatpeople like people, obviously you're an important voice in it Dan? I love thatyou picked out that detail from the Chapter With Adam Contos, chapter,seven, emotional, brilliance and, of course, the relationship that you havewith Dr Kathy Greenbird, who he again credited that with so for folks worelistening. We are interviewing all eleven of the expert friends that weinvited into human center communication. Damn just mentioned, Adam contos toCOOF REMAK he'll be coming up in a few weeks coming up to is Mario Martin asjunior the founder and CEO of Ven Grasso Julie, Hanson, who is aprofessional actress and sales person...

...turned kind of video trainer. He talksa lot about presents which came to like being present and having presents whichcame up in this conversation today and if you want to get going on and missedany of these we've already released conversations with Morgan j Ingram, whohas done produce more than ten sand. Videos for the purpose of buildingrelationships and increasing revenue is also a three time linked in tap salesvoice, Lorn Bailey, president and founder of factory in Girls Club,Matthew, squeezy of sales force, who recently appeared on your podcast andyeah sharp Gar got it yeah awesome, and so we've got a got. A really great setof folks here on a really important conversation and again Dan thanks forbeing part of it before we let you go so you've got some questions for you toparter, do in to bank or mention someone. That's had a big impact onyour life and our career and then, when you give us a nod or a shout out to acompany or a brand that just provided an amazing customer experience who wereyou wold by recently, it came just before Ovid. I bicycle a lot: If I'mnot playing tennis and down the street, there's a bike shout so this is not anational brand o. This is shop locally, but called grand performance becausethey're located on Grand Street. But when you go in the reason why they havethat name in parts because normally they sell to like really seriousbicyclist jouney that are competing in races and competitions. So I would bekind of you, no small fry as far as they were concerned, but I was soimpressed with the fact that they brought their same knowledge andconcern to me, as I could see there. They were having for the more seriouscyclist, and so there was the the knowledge and the personal warmth andthe knowledge wasn't just thrown off at me, like I had on God to to other bikeshouts before I hate me this one and the first place they didn't care of meat all and the second place they tried to up, sell me really aggressively.They probably concluded that you know.

Maybe I was a little older than some ofthe other buyers and I had more of a wallet and they were going to give muchof it as they possibly could. And you know I do was trying to explain to himwhat my biking Habis were, which is you know, fifteen minutes to an hour mostdays of the week, sometimes to bike rides a day, but I'm not going out onfourteen mile. You drives in the country side and this person was waybeyond what I was seeking. So when I got to the right place, it just feltright at no point that I feel like they were pushing an agenda that they lostside of what I needed and who I was. They were personable, but you know theyjust they wore their knowledge on their sleeve in the nicest of ways. You alsohave a positive impact on your life for a career, so it was a great brand one.Well all sorts of people, but I don't know who I mentioned if we ever cameback to this question before, but I would have to go back to the personnamed Joe Rich, because when I started my company sincere logic, he's the onewho kept me from making a terrible mistake. I had pulled togethermethodology and someone just said Yo method is that is the corporate versionof people into methodologies, but yeah Joe said, if you ask people to thinktheir feelings, you're not really going to make progress, and so many of themethodologies out there that tried to go into the brain science work, onlykind of did it with one toe in the water I mean there was one companywon't mention them by name, but they actually show people faces and saidwhich emotion do you feel well. That depends on people having the emotionalability alacrity to figure out how they're feeling and then identify aphotograph, but the whole thing was thrown Kitty Wampas by the fact thatthe photographs weren't actually accurate. One of them that said aneutral face actually showed sadness, for instance, but another one showedmultiple emotions like which were we going to choose here, so it was joe whoreally had the humanity to say. You've got to push further, but you, but you got to do it in a waythat gets the intimate feeling story...

...beyond what people can articulate, andso I will be eternally grateful for him. disabusing me of the methodology andthought I was going to have in favor of superior wine, which you didn't tell mehow to find it. You just said you got to go located some place so good Dan.If people want to learn more about you, sensory logic, which you just told likea really, I hadn't heard that before you did mention Joe Ridge last time,but not the way he influenced you. You know at the onset of doing your thingwith sensory logic, but people want to follow with you sensory logic, DanHills, e Q, spotlight, a podcast that I am a listener of or any of the otherprojects you've got going on. Where would you send people? Well, thewebsite is the obligatory thews and sensory Logico, and that's simpleenough. The podcast that you've generously mentioned is on the newbooks network, which is actually the world's largest book review platformwith over one point. Seven million downloads a month, so I am in a specialseries category fact I was the original special series. Then he allowed otherpeople to follow my initiative. So it's a very far. You know far rangingpodcast a lot it on business, but not all of it. I sometimes have culturalfigures. I have a woman up very shortly who's one of the genius googan grantwinners. So you know I go for the variety when I when it seemsappropriate or intriguing to me beyond that sure that this next book, when itcomes out, but all that sups on the website, so I think you taking thosetwo things and you got a reasonable handle once you want to come to myhouse for dinner. Okay, I will invite myself the next time I am in the UpperMidwest. I will invite myself well probably more attractively. I alsowin her in Palm Springs area and you might want to you might want to getaway to that more readily. I guess depends on the time of the year.Damn this is Super Fun. Thank you for spending time with us again. This isprobably the fourth or fifth hour. I've spent in your presence, not countinglistening to your podcast, and it's always a pleasure, and we appreciateyour insights and appreciate your...

...support of Human Center communication.Absolutely there's nothing more important men we! This is how we liveour lives. We spent a lot of that work and, if we're not we're customers veryoften I mean this stuff really matters and if only we were more human centric.That was my original mission into coming to business was to humanize thebusiness world. So you know. Basically, I guess I can hand off the baton to youguys at this point, not without your help appreciate it.Okay, that you clear communication, human connection, higher conversion.These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages yoursending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance to pick up theofficial book. Rehumanize, your business, how personal videos,accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in order today,at bombance book, that's B, O M B Bomb Com buck thanks for listening to thecustomer experience. podcast remember the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,continue learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now inyour favorite podcast player, or visit bomboost.

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