The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 153 · 5 months ago

153. Emotional Intelligence & Human-Centered Connection w/ Dan Hill

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Here are three quick ways to better assess what people are saying with their faces and emotions (aka facial coding). Pay attention to engagement, the camouflage smile, and the two-sided impact of fear.

The face is the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to the skin. Most of us aren’t aware of what we’re giving away.

In the fifth episode of our Human-Centered Connection expert series, Steve Pac inelli and I interview Dan Hill, PhD, President a t Sensory Logic, about emoti onal intelligence and facial coding.

Dan spoke with us about:

- How to imbue a mission into work for employee retention

- Why contempt and sadness can be dangerous emotions

- What to do to raise our emotional literacy

- How Steve Jobs illustrates the positive and negative sides of anger

- Why emotions stand apart from the rational parts of the brain

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Dan Hill, PhD (LinkedIn) 

- Sensory Logic 

- Grand Performance  

- Episode 75: Emotional Intelligence and The Power of Faces 

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Sometimes we're not nearly as emotionally literateas we are otherwise literate. We don't, I mean, understand the applications ofwhat we're giving away. The single most important thing you can do todayis to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceedcustomer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast.Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Welcome back to the human centered communicationseries here on the customer experience podcast. What is it? I've got acohost, Steve Passin, Ellie, longtime friend, longtime team member, Coauthor of a book called Rehumanize Your Business and Co author of a forthcoming bookcalled Human Centered Communication. We're cohosting this summer together and we're hosting are elevenexpert friends that we brought into that book. They're all in the book and sowe'd like to learn more from them. This is complimentary information. It's notredundant. We're learning more about them in their backgrounds. Steve, whodo we have the privilege of spending time with today? Oh, that wouldbe Mr Dan Hill, and when we were talking about who we want tohave contribute to the book and of course in this podcast, Dan was onthe very, very shortlist because if we're talking about human centered communication, wewant the guy who's an expert in analyzing emotions, facial expressions, personality traits. He analyzes emotions and business figures, historical figures. He's written, isit, ten bookstand ninth book is on the way. Ninth Book is onthe way, nine books. And he's the president of sensory sensory logic.He's got seven fatal decoding patterns that he's been on a myriad of different showslike Fox and PDS and CNN and Good Morning America, on the topics offacial emotions or facial expressions and emotions. So, Dan Hill, welcome backto the show. Oh, absolutely, thank you for taking me onto theair. Yeah, we is Steve said, definitely shortlist A. It's right inthe zone of what we're trying to explore within for people, which ishow to connect and communicate more effectively even when we're restricted to these virtual environments, and looking forward to getting into some material here today that we're familiar withbecause Steve and I are very avid listeners and readers of the things that youdo, even probably beyond your awareness. But whilst before we get into someof those teams sound scary, but okay, I fandom, fanaticism to find line. Okay, but Dan, will start where we started with you lasttime here on this show and where we start every episode, which is customerexperience. When I say customer experience, where does that mean? Do youDan? Well, I'm act hearing a quote from my friend Joe Pine,because I'm producing a book that start with the working title of the Devil's dictionaryof Worklife and commerce, and I invited people to submit diabolical definitions, andso I wasn't too surprised. And then again I was totally surprised that JoePine came back with the customer experience. What executives say they're focused on whenthey think no one will look closely, because the reality is that obviously thecustomer experience, along with your employee experience, should be absolutely central to how youview your organization. And yet unfortunately in so many cases it just doesn'thappen. So I would say that the customer experiences in many way the emotionsyou give people along with the products and services, and the emotions are likelyto be as or more memorable than the actual product and its processes. Andyet unfortunately that gets left by the wayside because it costs money, it involvestraining and involves caring about your personnel who are involved. I'm reading a bookright now by the former CEO of best buy and they bought a company thatwas looking after the experience of elderly people at home and trying to make surethat they were safe and comfortable, and...

...they were shocked when they were vettingthe company because the turnover rate at the company was merely two percent. Twopercent, and the reason for that because the people felt that their jobs wereimportant, they were actually adding value to other people's lives, that they werea savior, a guardian of these elderly. They obviously had their own grandparents andso there was a mission to the job and that transformed it all byitself. And if only CEOS would pay more attention to having that kind ofa spree to core, then the customer experience would be an awful lot betterthan it often is. Yeah, really good. Well done Dan, specificallydoing the mention of the mechanics, but really leaning into the feelings, inthe emotions, in the long term consequences of when we can connect with peoplepositively and emotionally. Also, for folks who are listening who aren't familiar,Joe Pine is one of the two co authors of the experience economy and absolutelycritical book. There's slept on for not slept on, but like it's Ifeel like it's more celebrated today then it was a decade ago and it waspublished twenty years ago. Dan is a friend of JOE's and I think Joe'sbeen on your podcast, Dan Hills q spotlight once or twice. He hasbeen in. Joe And I've been friends for twenty years and you know,I with the book originally came out. I thought it was an important book. But this is one of the rare cases where a book went into asecond and third edition where the additions actually gotten stronger and they admitted what theywere on the podcast that some the people started looking in the book and sayit's getting a little long in the tooth and some things are obsolete, andthey really took the charge seriously when back and I think really upgraded the bookNice. So in our upcoming both the one that you so graciously decided tohelp us out with, we mention your work in politics and sports and businessand other industries. Give the listeners just a bit of background about that work, or if you could share a couple stories you know about your work inpolitics or sports that people might be familiar with? Sure. Well, let'sstart with politics. So I have gone through and actually facially coded every USpresident ever and I discovered that the most reliable indicator that they would be anunsuccessful president, as you know, determined by you know, presidential historians,would be sadness. and sadness as an emotion tends to slow you down.So also in sports, I've found that this is not very conducive to beingan NBA star, for instance. So it slows you down physically and mentally, and it potentially has the advantage of making you a more empathetic but itcould also make you listless. And the one thing that happens to being presidentis essentially, especially if your President United States, is your job description encompassesevery problem that exists in the world, because America has such a big footprint. You know that if the Israelis and a mosque go to war. Suddenlythat's on your plate, is president. So being listless is not a luxuryyou get to have as President United States. Now, Abraham Lincoln, of course, is one of our greatest presidents and he did have a lot ofsadness in his face, but the correlate to that, or the thing thatoff set it, was he also had a really good sense of humor,including, you know, selfdepreciation, and so he balanced the two and Ithink that in that civil war the empathetic qualities of sadness were able to comethrough for him in terms of his forgiveness at the end of the war,in the terms that he was offering the south. But he also had theability to fortunately take in the foibles of his many generals and keep moving tillhe not to grant, as opposed to the other people, they certainly shouldn'tsettle for. So I've noticed that and I as I said, I mentionedit in sports. At one point I was doing some work for the MINNISOTAtimberwolves and they brought in a guy from the New York Knicks who was sixsix and the general manager was just gloating about the fact that he'd made asteal. In his opinion, this is someone who could play it maybe threedifferent positions on the court. Well, I looked at the guy that Ithought, my God, it's a disaster in the making. He had thesaddest face I'd ever seen, other than maybe chief reign in the face,who was a colleague of sitting bull,...

...and he was. He was lockerroom poison. He was ineffective on the court. I mean he just hewas so listless, so despondent. He didn't bring anyone with him in theexperience. And so it's not only for yourself, but it's the contagious effectyou have on your teammates, on your department members and so forth, becauseemotions are incredibly contagious. Well, why are we so bait? Like whywas the coach so bad, or why are humans so bad at like pickingup on those? You would think that's an incredibly important skill to have tolike recognize that and someone else and make the appropriate choice. Where do wego wrong? Well, this case the general manager was a lawyer, sothat means you're studying, you know, precedence and court law and so forth. And and yeah, you would think if you're a great court room attorney, you would really pick this up well and run with it. But thatwasn't this person's background. But I have done some work in law, ifwe want to go over and that field for just a second. Sure itwas an instance where he was now the most major suit against the Catholic Churchthat was settled out of court for obviously you know some of things going onwith the priests and so forth, and the person who handled the case saidto me, well, the number two in charge of the diocese is themost inscrutable person I've ever had to deal with. And I said, well, no one's inscrutable. Just give me a chance. I say you gotsome videotape right disposition, deposition for this person? It turns out this wasObama's chief of staff's brother and he was a very sharp guy, but theface gives it away. And I said here's Your Road Map. I foundfifteen segments where this is where I would go back and I pursue the lineof questioning. The person showed contempt, maybe even for themselves, because theyknew they were lying or obfuscating. This is where they were nervous there thisis where their anger was kind of out of bounds and they're being, youknow, defensive and pushing back too hard, the kind of losing their cool.These are the hot spots the road map to go after this case.So in every instance there's some application. Obviously too emotions. I want totwist Steve's question the other way. Where is it? Why are we sobad at reading these? And now I want to go to this guy heretalking about who is essentially giving himself away, like why don't we have more controlover our emotions, especially when it's going to obviously this person was,let's just assume this person was obfu skating for some reason or another. Youknow it's to his benefit to do that effectively, and yet he didn't.You could you, a trained professional could easily come up with multiple instances wherehis face be lies, his words or sometimes even his actions. Like whycan't we hide this better? Well, the first reason is that the faceis the only place in the body where the muscles attached right to the skin. So Dr Paul Eckman calls it leakage, that we give away information. Iknow it sounds like it depends commercial, but you know that is leaking,that we give away things on our face, that the we don't evenrealize we're giving away. The second thing is this was a very smart person, I have no doubt of that, real felicity with words, but sometimeswe're not nearly as emotionally literate as we are otherwise literate. We don't,I mean, understand the applications of what we're giving away. And I alwaysgo back to contempt because it's really ultimately the most important emotion. It meansI don't respect you, I don't trust you, I find you beneath me, and that was some of this person gave away the case. That shouldcommand your empathy. In fact, I did the work pro bono because Ihad a friend who had been molested and I had seen the devastation in thisperson's life as they veered from everything from being a fundamentalist to a Marxist andin between, an alcoholic and a very smart and good person, but theyjust couldn't find a runner in life. And if you look back, andI knew the person's parents, they were wonderful, nice, solid childhood.Nothing was a miss except this one incident, and so for that reason I offeredmy services. So if any case...

...where you should not be showing contempt. It should have been a case like this. You had the person justtreated the whole incident that way. They mean there was far more contempt onthe face. I mean had it gone to trial, I think this personwould have been a devastating witness against his own case because I don't think ajury would have found that kind of arrogance acceptable. I want to change gearsjust for a quick second because you mentioned in the in the book or inour interview, the previous interview, Steve Jobs talked a lot about him havingan angry face, and one thing that as I rewatch the interview, andI rewatched it again today, and I was like, man, we shouldhave asked these this follow up question to that because you know, obviously itwas a tough person to work with. I want to tie this into employeeexperience and customer experience here. You know he was a tough person to workwith. He had an emotional baseline of anger most of the time. Howcan people take that, understand that and then use it effectively? Like howwould someone communicate with someone that that is angry or and at a part too, if they could decode that their face wasn't angry at the time. Howwould they respond and communicate to you have tips around communicating, communicating with thetype of people in their natural state? Sure. Well, I think onSteve Jobs behalf. The first thing I would say is that every emotion hasa positive side and a negative side to it, and so we often talkabout anger management, which casts anger as this problematic emotion, and God knowsit can be. But on the positive side it means that I also maybewant to break through barriers, that I want to control my own destiny,that I want to push farther, harder, better, more successfully. So,you know, for those who work for Steve Jobs, and I knewsomeone who was actually kind of in his senior team for a while, hesaid it was a it was a privilege to be in his company because youknew you had a genius, you knew that he wouldn't set settle for lowstandards and it was breathtaking to witness his drive. On the other hand,it was exhausting and eventually this person said that, you know, you know, three years or five years, whatever it was, was enough and beforeI was completely burned, to to crisp as a toast, you know,I had to get out of there. But I think as a leader,if you can keep them reminded of that mission, that goal, that glory, and people like to have a sense of purpose in their life. Andif we can only get a moment in the sunshine, having some glory orbasking in a refracted way to someone else's glory, Steve Jobs Glory, Apple'sglory, I mean I think that can carry people a fairly good way,as long as you don't go to the emotion I just mentioned, contempt,because if you then say well, you're part of the problem, you're partof the mediocrity of the part of what's letting us not break through these barriers, then you're going to lose those people and you know they're going to feelunder attack. So I think that's the the kind of finessing that that kindof leader should do, and they can make it feel exciting and we're inthis and not be in the act of seemingly throwing people off the boat tothe sharks. The whole thing's going to go more successfully for everyone who's notnamed Steve Jobs. So you don't have to wait for an emotional change.There are always ways that, depending on their demeanor, to communicate with thatperson in there now. I think you want to. You want in thatcase, you a size. What's the positives of this emotion? I mean, if it's so central to who you are, so intrinsic, you mayjust not be able to authentically, you know, take it out of theequation. So you leaves got it, emphasize where it has positives that itbrings and maybe have to I don't know if jobs ever managed to do this, but you might have to apologize sometimes. You might have to take a timeout like we do with our three year old and say, you know, wanted to go to your room for a bit and will reconvene later.You know, if he could find some of those saving graces or a littleselfdepreciating humor, as Abraham Lincoln did. I mean there are ways to diffusethat and still manage a wrong with most...

...of the throw weight of what angercan bring you in a positive sense. Really Good for folks who are listening, Dan, of course, was our guest on this podcast back on episodeseventy five. We titled that one Emotional Intelligence and the power of faces.So we're not going to rehash a lot of the detail in it. Butyou've mentioned contempt several times, especially kind of like as a standout thing toreally be on guard for. Can you just describe for people what contempt lookslike? On the face it's a SMIRK. I sometimes joke that the disstance betweenbankruptcy and profitability is happiness versus a smirk, because the smirk, youknow, leads to divorce and I think it can lead to bankruptcy because you'renot showing respect for others. But the core of the mouth rises and andgoes out, but there's also a bit of tension to it. Is Whatalways called, sometimes I pocket Tornado, or the core of the mouth aswhat can seem like a dimple, like when you're smiling, but there's justtoo much tension there, because really happiness and anger often contribute to contempt.The happiness is a sense that you're above other people and the anger is asense of the not worthy of you, and that's what makes it it's sucha fascinating emotion. It's also very attitudinal because you arrive at a judgment thatthis person's not worthy and it's really unlikely you're going to drop that or changethat opinion. Quite honestly, I can remember one point being in Poland andI'd stayed in a wonderful temeteen century hotel. The problem was barked back in mycar out of the parking lot or the carriageway in the morning, andit is hard to back any vehicle up when you're driving. It's much easierto go forward. And people don't apologize readily in life. They don't goback and revisit their judgments easily, and so once contempt locks in, it'sreally hard to get rid of it, as opposed to discuss, which isalso an adverse emotion, where the nose might wrinkle or the upper lip curl, but that's like a reaction, often to a food item or a smell, and so it's visceral, but it can come and go. Contempt isreally unique in that it's almost a mental emotion. It's attitudinal super bidden.Are you really conscious of your resting faces while talking with an hell? BecauseI'M NOT gonna lie, like every time he says something like Mike, doI do that? Am I doing that? UNGIT Jes. The other night Iwas watching seeing and it was the handoff at the nine o'clock hour betweenDon Lemon and Chris Cuomo and they were trying to act, you know,like they were good buddies and so on and so forth, and maybe theyare in some moments. Like Chris Como showed several instances contempt after Don Lemonneedled him a bit here there or made other comments that it will seem prettyobvious to me that, you know, Colomo was not on board for doyou have a class that people can sign up for where you like quiz themand show them faces and like try to get them to because I think thatwould be like I don't think people would pay for that. It's like howdo they learn to read people as well as you do, or not aswell? But, frater, well, I've done it some with executive coaching. I have, you know, done some work with sales forces, forinstance. But yes, it can be done in tutorials, you know,small pod learning environments. I bring this up during speeches pretty often because contemptis, I think, probably the most fascinating of the emotions. Yeah,well, that that kind of is a form of the question I was goingto ask because because you know, you've gone by a little bit on teamchemistry and the the Dour said face of that player that the timber wolves areso excited to get, but also goes to kind of the employee experience thatwe've talked about a couple of times, including working with someone like Steve Jobsand you know Steve's follow up on how do we work with that effectively?But are a couple practical tips that you found most people really benefit from andacross your work with regard to working with our own teams and managing our chemistrya little bit better and paying attention to...

...the things that people don't say withtheir words but are saying with their faces and emotions. What are a couplelike practical, common, useful tips that, without diving deep, they might beable to make a better assessment today or tomorrow. Sure, the firsttime, I'm start with his engagement, because your emotions turn on with somethingmatters to you, that's memorable for you, you're going to really dig in andand if you're a team leader, you're looking for engagement. If youare telling them about the summer, you're going to climb. Everybody in thegroup has a flat affect, I think you're in trouble because they're just notsummoning the emotional energy that's going to make things start to roll forward. I'dmake a comparison to one point. For a market research study we looked atwhat they said verbally, young, with a yes, no, likely tobuy all that kind of stuff, and then how much emotional energy they showedin their faces. In four out of five case is, when they saidthey were neutral, they were actually predominantly negative in their emoting. So flataffect is really bad. Negative effect is obviously bad, but in a groupsetting people are likely to try to suppress that or what Dr Ectman calls asquelch, and you may camouflage that with a smile. So I think mysecond thing after engagement would be to look for the camouflage. Human beings useit a lot. The smiles the most frequent thing we do. So isit a tepid smile? Is it the smile as to d quote a poemfrom Thomas Hardy about to former lovers meeting one last time, and he saysif her smile it was the deadest thing, with strength enough to die. Ithink we have all seen smiles like that. I mean they are frozensmiles. Smile also that comes on the face in a lopsided manner can suggestit's being pulled on the face, if it comes on too quickly leaves toabruptly. Those are troubling signs. The smile that just you know, dissipatesimmediately I called the Guillotine Smile in honor of one politician who deploys a smilequite obviously but doesn't mean it. So you know those those are some thingsand in terms of trying to take this team forward, the last one,I think I have to go to his fear, because fear can really bemotivating because you're thinking about survival. But on the other hands, if youget what I call the egads expression with the mouth pulls wide, they maybe more concerned with failure than we're trying to grasp any opportunities. And youknow that person on your team is someone you're going to have to talk toindividually, maybe offline, try to you know, butress them to get themto have the confidence to really step in. You probably have to shield them ingroup meeting so that not subject to embarrassment. You got someone there whoyou're going to just have to handle differently than someone else. Really good tipsthere, and I mean just very generically. I think the first step anyone cantake is just paying more attention. You know, I think so manyof us let these moments come and go without really also operating at this levelwhere we're looking at the effect on the room of our own words any and, of course, of other people's words as well. And it kind ofleads into an area that Steve and I are both very personally interested in andare excited to have you go back at. We've done it a little bit withyou before, but it's this idea of the way we make decisions,the fact that the vast maturity of decisions are made or dramatically influenced subconsciously andthe way that we receive in process stimuli as part of the process of assessingand making decisions. He just break down the basic structure of the brain andhow we tend to operate, oftentimes out of our own, you, consciousawareness. Sure, I mean the brain has a lot of plasticity to thecourse. So this is a overly simplified model, but it still has somevalue. You can still think of a triune brain, even though the brainscience has moved beyond that, in that...

...in the course of evolution we firsthad a sensory brain. You know, our ability to smell. It isactually the origins of the brain. It's still the most sensitive, the mostintimate of the emotions. So if the card that said I have the capacityto smell on therefore I think and therefore I am, you would have beena lot closer to the truth. So we are much more influenced by,you know, everything from the warmth in the room or the lack of warmth, the coldness in the room, how far people are sitting away from eachother, whether we have a clear sightline of the leader and feel like wecan identify with, you know, what they're going through, or saying tous, and a conversation. So so much of it happens at that level, which we never recognize typically because usually we're taking in so much more information. You have pair split second they would ever have a chance to consciously process. And then the emotional brain came into existence way before the conscious rational brainand probably one of the oldest elements, and that is called the Amygdala,which are two almond shape parts of the brain and they're really geared toward fear. And that makes a lot of sense, because survival is everything. It can'tmove on to thriving until you can survive to be in the game.But we are emotional beings and the emotional part of the brain is older,denser. In many ways it sends more connections forward than it receives back fromthe rational part of the brain. So it is much more the influencer ofof those and that's something that most companies are relatively blind to. They justwant to think it's Alve the frontal CORTEX. Thank you very much. I actuallywant to just go back for a moment. I was thinking about likethis conversation rate here and how many business conversations, of course, are happeningon Microsoft and zoom and and all these synchronous video platforms. You know,when you're on these platforms, I feel like you don't feel the weight ofother people's eyes on you, like when you're standing in a room with someoneand you're in a little circle or you're at a table, like you know, when someone's looking at you, you know more if they're paying attention.Like here. If I look at Ethan, Ethan looks like he's kind of lookinglike a little down and you know and a way which she's looking atme on the screen but, but, but, as a human I don'tfeel that is it. Is it easier for the astute person who's great atreading faces and emotions to actually communicate, and this is a total I'm justtossing this out there, but to be on zoom to pick up those emotionseven easier because people are less guarded it. Have you done any research or studiesaround around that? I have not, but I can say as a facialquote, I have no objections to zoom because it gives me the facestill and I can really isolate on that and I'm not necessarily distracted by theother elements, although I've certainly learned to fight through those over the years.But I think for most of us what happens is our sensitivity to the situation, as you're suggesting, kind of deadens. We don't have the same sensory involvementand so I think the mind is more given to drifting away. Wedon't feel the way the dynamics it's all different and relatively flat. I mean, you know, I love going to movies, but I really like togo to least some of them in person, with the big screen back in theday, because it's just much more enveloping and even with a large TVmean it just isn't going to command the same presence, you know, asthe screen in a movie house when I think it's the same way zoom cangive us you know TV or maybe you know video on our smartphone, butit doesn't give us the way to the movie theater and I think that thatdoes have implications terminally for how those those conversations go. Well, we startedoff the conversation with your book. Let's get back to you have an upcomingbook. It's yet to be titled. You got a couple titles floating around. What do you excited about? What's what's? I want to give aname in case it's not. It's not...

...a name. Your book, notthe book we did together, but your book. What are you excited aboutfor that release, for people to read? Well, one thing is, youknow, bringing humor to their workplace, because we could all sorrely need thatat any time, including during a pandemic. Milan Kundira, the checkrider, once said don't trust anyone without a sense of humor. I neverknew a KGB agent who had one. So you know, I think thatthe lack of humor is a side of oppression and a very rigid mindset.And I think we need to be honest, because one of the things that struckme when I got into the business space was that candor pretty much dieson the vine. There's a real risk of, you know, being forthrightand you get into a lot of half truths. It's kind of like livingin Zoom, you know, seven, because you're not fully present. Atsome point your back off a bit very often and a lot of them toget lost as a consequent. So I think with humor sometimes you have thechance to make the joker, make the inside and take off just enough theedge so you won't get killed for doing so. And so this book isgoes every place and what I really wanted to do. Well, first Ishould mention the inspiration for it, which was I had two people on mypodcast on successive weeks. Neither one of them did I invoke this or invitethis kind of comment, but they both noted that about twenty five percent ofbosses, managers, etc. Are considered to be bullies, and I justthought that does its floored me. You know, why should people have tolive with that? I mean, where is the HR department? Where arethe senior executives. Why is no one clearing these people out? And Iknow for my own instances before I started running a company, and hopefully Iwasn't a bully. I totally try not to be, but about forty percentof my bosses were bullies, and so I was kind of ruminating on thatand then I thought of my one, my favorite book, which is theDevil's dictionary by Ambrose Beers, who's a contemporary of Mark Twain. That's consideredone of the hundred greatest pieces of American literature. It's full of diabolical definitionslike Yankee, no such things. See Damn Yankee Dad, to someone whoputs metal in your mouth while taking go from your pocket, and so onand so forth, and it's a wonderful book and I just said to here'smy way to maybe going after the bullies. Let's shame them, let's expose themin some ways. Let's also expose a lot of kind of unfortunate,if even outright ugly things that happened in terms of office politics or terms ofhow we don't give the customers that do they should, but we'll do withhumor. And so I invited people in because you know, I'm just onewhite guy getting a little older and I said I need younger people, Ineed women, I want minorities, I have people from other continents. Iwanted the richness of all the experiences and perspectives that people could offer. Andso the book of the end has fifty contributors, as well as Howard Moskowitz, a famous, legendary researcher who know whom glad will profiled, and Ijust said have at it, submit what you want. I got eighty hundredsubmissions. I took about six hundred in the end, but you know,humors tricky. You Watch Colbert. Even even the masters don't always have thebest lines fed to them by their writers. So you know it involved a lotof effort in the end, ten months, but I think it's areally good book. Just lucky entile so far. Yeah, it's I'm excitingabout the concept. I think it is fun. When I think about someof the faith my favorite stage presentations and when I think about some of myfavorite business books that I've read, I'm thinking of rework by the guys atthirty seven signals, who've had a recent dust up on a different theme,but it's like stand up comedy, but not for a meanstream audience. It'sfor, like you know, essentially business professionals. It's like standup comedy forbusiness professionals, and it's so helpful because, to your point, Dan, itmakes light of things that we all know, our problems. It allowsus to it creates a platform potentially to have conversation about it, but todo it in a way that, you know, invites people who might nototherwise participate or speak up, because now we're all smiling in a common experienceof yeah, that is what that really...

...means. Yeah, and it's lettinghow that really goes. Yeah, and it's less threading. So the veryfirst one I started with was diversity in senior management. A short white guy, because the truth is that's often the case. I mean I've seen ittime and again, and the women who participated, yeah, when you gavethem a chance to choose whatever definition they want to go after, whatever term, you know, level playing field was one that a lot of the femalecontributors that I got to take a whack at that one, because there isno way in the world that's a level playing field. But then the questiongets to be can they do with some humor, as supposed to, justsaying I'm so frustrated. You know that I'm I'm going to rent here alittle bit. So that was part of the editing of the book, tryingto find the right voices for different comments. Awesome. Well, when we postthis to bobombcom slash podcast, we round up a bunch of links.was certainly linked to the book and Sirly, with it its final title. Littlebe linked up there to Dan. Let's talk for a minute about humancenter communication, which is the title of the book that Steve and I coauthored with the great help of you in ten of your other peers as businessexperts in your own fields here. Obviously, yours is facial coding and emotional intelligence. There's so much good stuff. I love the chapter that we puttogether around all the information you shared. As you look at the project onwhole, is there any topic or is there another person or than any themesthat you're particularly interested in in this forthcoming book? Sure, another contributers,Adam, some remembers last time as a controst. Yes, Adam Canto.See. Yeah, now, so talking about emotional brilliance, because I thinksome people might think that having a q is fine. There might be anice parlor trick, but it really has no particular utility. And he's reallymaking the point that you do want to suss out what people are feeling andwhat's their reality, but you're doing it on behalf of getting to an objective. So there really is a point to this and emotional brilliance means that.And he says one of his inspirations was Cathy Greenberg, who had endorsed mybook emotion Omics, and she was really intent on what was the company culture. So yes, you can apply emotional brilliance as a manager. You cando with a colleague. You'd try to use it frankly and getting hired intoa position and trying to read who's across the table from you. But mostof all, I think is incumbent ultimately on the executive team, from whoeverruns x and who they bring in and the vision they have, but allthroughout the company. But that company culture, too often the default is that it'sa passive aggressive culture, and I know that because USA Today one pointinvited people to give definitions of their company culture and they had a whole rangeof possibilities. But over a third of them shows passive aggressive, and youknow passive aggressive is not fun to experience. It's a series a little rabbit punchesfollowed by a body blow somewhere down the road, down the line.Surely we can do better. It's the same thing as bully boss has wewhy do we have to settle for this kind of mediocrity and malevolence? Wejust shouldn't. Yeah, I really great take and I love that you reemphasize that point on bullies. You know, the theme of this book is howdo we treat people? One of the themes is how do we treatpeople like people? Obviously you're an important voice in it, Dan. Ilove that you picked out that detail from the Chapter With Adam Kantos, ChapterSeven, emotional brilliance, and of course the relationship that you have with DrCathy Greenberg, who he again credited that with. So, for folks whoare listening, we are interviewing all eleven of the expert friends that we invitedinto human center communication. Dan just mentioned Adam contos to Seeo of remax.He'll be coming up in a few weeks. Coming up to is Mario Martinez Junior, the founder and CEO of Van Gresso, Julie and in, whois a professional actress and salesperson turned kind...

...of video trainer, which talks alot about presents, which came up, like being present and having presents,which came up in this conversation today. And if you want to get goingon, missed any of these, we've already released conversations with Morgan j Ingram, who is done produced more than tenzero videos for the purpose of building relationshipsand increasing revenue. He's also a three time linkedin tap sales voice, LaurenBailey, president and founder of factory and Girls Club, Matthew Squeezy of salesforce, who recently appeared on your podcast, Dan. Yeah, very sharp guygot yeah, awesome. And so we've got a got a really greatset of folks here on a really important conversation and again, Dan, thanksfor being part of it. Before we let you go, Steve's got somequestions for you. It's partter doing to thank your mention someone that's had abig impact on your life and or career and then to give us a nodor a shout out to a company or a brand that just provided an amazingcustomer experience. who were you wiled by recently. It came just before CovidI bicycle a lot of I'm not playing tennis, and down the street there'sa bike shop. So this is not a national brand. This is shoplocally, but called grand performance because they're located on Grand Street. But whenyou go in, the reason why they have that name in parts because normallythey sell to like really serious bicyclist, you know the type there are competingin races and competitions. So I would be kind of, you know,small fry as far as they were concerned. But I was so impressed with thefact that they brought their same knowledge and concerned to me, as Icould see there they were having for the more serious cyclist and so there wasthe knowledge and the personal warmth and the knowledge wasn't just thrown off at melike I bought. Gone to two other bike shops before I came to thisone, and the first place they didn't care about me at all and thesecond place they tried to upsell me really aggressively. They probably concluded that,you know, maybe I was a bit older than some of the other buyersand I had more of a wallet and they were going to give it muchof it as they possibly could. And you know, I was trying toexplain to him what my biking habits were, which is, you know, fifteenminutes to an hour most days of the week, sometimes to bike ridesa day, but I'm not going out on fourteen mile drives of the countryside. And this person was way beyond what I was seeking. So when Igot to the right place, it just felt right. At no point thatI feel like they were pushing an agenda, that they lost sight of what Ineeded and who I was. They were personable but you know, theyjust they wore their knowledge on their sleeve in the nicest of ways. Youalso have positive impact on your life for career. So it was a greatbrand one well, all sorts of people, but I don't know who I mentionedif we ever came back to this question before, but I would haveto go back to the person named Joe Rich, because when I started mycompany, sensory logic, he's the one who kept me from making a terriblemistake. I had pulled together methodology and someone just said Yo, methodist,that is the corporate version of people into methodologies. But you know, Joesaid, if you ask people to think their feelings, you're not really goingto make progress. And so many of the methodologies out there that tried togo into the brain science work only kind of did it with one toe ofthe water. I mean there was one company, I won't mention them byname, but they actually showed people faces and said which emotion do you feel? Well, that depends on people having the emotional ability alacrity to figure outhow they're feeling and then identify a photograph. But the whole thing was thrown Kittywampus by the fact that the photographs were in actually accurate. One ofthem, that's Haid a neutral face, actually showed sadness, for instance,but another one showed multiple emotions, like which one am I going to choosehere? So it was Joe who really had the humanity to say, you'vegot to push further, but you get but you got to do it ina way that gets the intimate feeling story beyond what people can articulate, andso I will be eternally grateful for him...

...disabusing me of the methodology I thoughtI was going to have in favor of superior one, which you didn't tellme how to find. It. He just said you got to go locateat some place. So good, Dan. If people want to learn more aboutyou, sensory logic, which you just told like a really I hadn'theard that before. You did mention Joe rich last time, but not theway he influenced you, you know, at the onset of of doing yourthing with sensory logic, but people want to follow up with you, sensorylogic, Dan Hills, eq spotlight, a podcast that I am a listenerof, or any of the other projects you've got going on. Where wouldyou send people? Well, the website is the obligatory three dubius and sensorylogiccom and that's simple enough. The podcast that you've generously mentioned is on thenew books network, which is actually the world's largest book review platform, withover one point seven million downloads a month. So I am in a special seriescategory. In fact I was the original special series and then he allowedother people to follow my initiative. So it's a very far, you know, far ranging podcast. LABB IT on business, but not all of it. I sometimes have cultural figures. I have a woman up very shortly who'sone of the genius googleheim grant winners. So you know I go for thevariety when I when it seems appropriate or intriguing to me. Beyond that,sure that this next book when it comes out, but all that stuffs onthe website. So I think you've taken those two things and you got areasonable handle. Once you want to come to my house for dinner, okay, I will invite myself. The next time I am in the Upper Midwest, I will invite myself. Well, probably more attractively. I also wenther in Palm Springs area and you might want to. You might want toget away to that more readily. Yeah, either, I guess depends on thetime of the year. Dan, this is Super Fun. Thank youfor spending time with us again. This is probably the fourth or Fifth HourI've spent in your presence, not counting listening to your podcast, and it'salways a pleasure and we appreciate your insights and appreciate your support of human centeredcommunication. Absolutely. There's nothing more important to me. We this is howwe live our lives. We spent a lot of it at work and ifwe're not, we're customers very often. I mean this stuff really matters andif only we were more human centric. That was my original mission into cominginto business, was to humanize the business world. So you know, basically, I guess I can hand off the baton to you guys at this point, not without your help. Appreciate it, okay. Thank you. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefitsof adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to dowith just a little guidance. So pick up the official book rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in ordertoday at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to thecustomer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do todayis to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning thelatest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, orvisit Bombombcom podcast.

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