The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 155 · 10 months ago

155. How Artificial Intelligence is Driving the Feeling Economy w/ Dr. Roland Rust


In the feeling economy, interpersonal relationships drive the success of organizations. Feelings have always been important, of course, but today they are even more important than they’ve ever been before. 

In this episode, I interview Dr. Roland Rust, Distinguished University Professor at Robert H. Smith School of Business, University of Maryland and coauthor of The Feeling Economy, about the three econ omies and why the feeling economy is the most human.

Roland and I talked about:

- What the role of emotions is in business today

- How the three economies are evolving towards feeling

- What our relationship to AI is and what it could become

- What causes prevalence of feeling industries today, especially sales

- Why rationalization is one of the greatest benefits of the feeling economy

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The AI and the human are a team, and the best way for managers to think about it is their teammates. It's not like one is a tool for the other. It's their teammates. That that requires a little bit of a shift of thinking. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Ironically, as artificial intelligence is becoming more able to think, human intelligence is d emphasizing thinking in favor of feeling and interpersonal relationships. The result is a feeling economy. This important and powerful idea is a quote from a book that I highly recommend and that we'll be talking about today on the show. This book is called the feeling economy, how artificial intelligence is creating the era of empathy, and it's Co authored by Mingui Wang and today's guest. Our guest is a distinguished university professor, the Chair and marketing and founder and Executive Director of the Center for Excellence in service at the Robert H Smith School of business at the University of Maryland. He's Co authored several other books on service Mark Getting Customer lifetime value and related topics. He's earned dozens of awards for these books and for his published articles. He's also consulted with Microsoft, Sony, Eli, Lilly, American Airlines, Fedex and NASA, among many other world class organizations. Roland rust, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thanks very much, even happy to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. I actually learned about your book from a friend of mine, in a former podcast guest, Dan Hill, who interviewed Ning on his podcast and he'll Z eq spotlight. I immediately after listening to that interview, immediately bought the book, read it and I felt like I needed have you on this show. So glad to have you and we're going to start where we always start, which is customer experience. When I say customer experience, Roland, what does that mean to you? Customer experience means everything that happens to the customer during a session with the company or the organization. So everything that happens really is part of the customer experience and often when we call that the the moments of truth, because they're there, the The Times in which the company or the organization really has the opportunity to make its reputation with that customer. Yeah, I love it. It's in what a challenge to manage everything that happens and this moments of truth, moments that matter. I've also heard it as moments of magic or moments of misery. You know that these moments are key, I guess, in terms of starting to get a handle on the experience. From your perspective, I mean you've been studying and teaching essentially around a variety of marketing and service topics for years. From your perspective, like this rise in the use of the language and practice of customer experience, you feel like it's new language for longstanding principles and practices. Or are we onto something actually truly new right now, or are we somewhere in the middle? Well, I really see it as a continuation. There are people talking about a lot of these topics even in s and the sort of buzzword customer experience became popular in recent years, but basically it's a lot of the same things that we've been doing for a long time. It's just that everybody is recognizing that the customer is very important, the customer experience is very important, because otherwise you turned the customers away. Yeah, another just another question before we dive into the feeling economy. Do you think...

...some of this pressure is driven by the mass movement towards subscription models? It seems like, you know, some things were meant to be sold by subscription. I feel like some things evolved to be that way, and now we can even get things like tshirts and underpants on subscription. Like do you feel like I do that? And or why? Why not? That the subscription model is driving a greater degree of customer centricity and therefore putting a greater priority on moments that matter, moments of truth, etc. Yeah, I think the big thing is that companies realized that relationships or the key, and that means you want to have a continuing contact with that customer and actually you want to get continuing payments from the customer. That's a lot of word this comes from. So that, of course means you have to keep the customer. That means you have to satisfy the customer and if you don't do those things, then you're not going to have a relationship. You can have a transaction and everybody knows that that's not so good because once the transactions over, the customers gone right and with increasing CAC and decreasing margins, transactions in a lot of cases, simply, I mean in a lot of subscription models, the initial transactions aren't even profitable, and hence the need for relationship really good. So the feeling kind of before we actually dive in, dive in, I want to a say a couple things about it and then be asked about a broader view from your perspective. So, folks listening in, the book is called the feeling economy. I heard about it, immediately, bought it, read it. I highly recommend it. It is highly approachable. It is built from years of research that you had done and that your coauthor had done, and you lean down other people's research as well, and it's a privilege of posting the show I can read a book like that feel like it's relevant to the folks who listen to the show and let me know that they're listening in the kinds of things that they're interested in. And so now I can die deeper and learn more about it myself and then, of course, as a benefit to listeners into you, I can share the book with other people too. So might my question for you, before we dive into some more of the specifics of it, is talk about the role of feelings, emotions emotional intelligence in the context of business in general, like what are the broad changes that you've seen to the degree that you've surveyed the scene over over decades, and where are we today with regard to these things? In like, I feel like I guess I'm qualifying the question. Now. It feels like a couple of decades ago you just didn't talk about emotions in business and we just didn't view it that way. In fact, you would actively try to avoid or suppress emotions creeping into our work. But I feel like that's gone away, both internally within a business and certainly with relationships with customers. Are Comfort talking about these things the way that they matter, like what are you seeing like from a trends perspective around eat, feelings, emotions and emotional intelligence? Well, the feelings and emotional intelligence or much more important for people in business now. That sounds like a strange thing to say, you might say, well, haven't feelings always been important? Sure they have, but that hasn't been what people were doing. So, for example, if you go back twenty years, call a customer service line on the telephone, you get a person and probably you have a very routine issue with them and they deal with that routine issue and then somebody else calls it has routine issue in this happens over and over again, and so what business has done over the period of time is that they tried to replace that with automation, and the latest and greatest of form of automation is artificial intelligence. So basically all these easy things are being done by machines and the hard things, which are basically dealing with people, are left to people. And so you have the the issue of trying to relate to that individual has a non routine problem, and so the company really needs to focus on the emotional side because that's what drives in...

...her personal relationships really good. And that kind of tease up where I want to start with the book. I have a couple key frameworks. One are the three phases of the economy, physical economy, thinking economy, feeling economy. So we'll probably start there. And then move into AI operating at three different levels, and it kind of maps to that mechanical Ai, thinking ai and feeling Ai. So you really kind of previewed it. But for give folks like the broader context of, you know, the feeling economy as it as an emergent economy. We're not there yet for reasons that I'm sure will talk about to the course of the next, you know, several minutes. But break down the three phases of the economy and kind of the characteristics of them. Sure, the first one is the the physical economy, and that was where you have a lot of mining and farming and, to some degree, physical labor of various kinds. So, for example, if you look at a car factory in early nineteen hundreds, basically everybody was making everything by hand. But then what started to happen in the early nineteen hundreds? So you started to have automation come in, and usually it was things like the assembly line. And as automation came in, then that made a lot of those manufacturing jobs and farming jobs and mining jobs go away because they weren't needed anymore. Those people who are physical workers typically are big and strong. Typically they were men. You know, the physical economy was very patriarchal time because men dominated the economy. But then as automation came in, that kind of even the playing field because now you didn't need to be big and strong. And who was out there that didn't, that wasn't necessarily as big and as strong? Was a lot of women out there, and so the women started to really pick up a lot of ability to, for example, lead organizations. You saw a lot of women who became the heads of countries. That was basically unknown except for Queens. So anyway, with monarchies you had some some queens who were in charge, but basically the countries for the most part had mail leaders. So, anyway, the physical economy went away, women started to become much more capable in the thinking economy, because they're just as good at thinking as men are. But now what you have is a second shift. You have a shift from the thinking economy to the feeling economy. It's already underway. It's not totally there yet, but it's already under way. We can show it through data and in the feeling economy what we believe is that women actually have the edge. Not only will live evened, it up, they will have the edge because women have a stronger capability for empathy and that is going to be what really wins the day in a situation where you have all the interpersonal relationships driving the successive organizations. So that of course parallels. Like the reason that we're moving from the thinking economy to the feeling economy is that AI has entered the picture and it's gotten very, very good beyond rote automation to doing a lot of these thinking tasks. So break down those three types of AI, mechanical Ai, thinking ai and feeling ai and kind of tie that back into the shift in the from thinking to feeling economy. Sure. Well, the physical ai is it's what you see in a lot of car factories, you know. You these have machines are putting putting cars together. It's usually used for very repetitive tasks. Now what we're seeing is thinking ai come in. So, for example, IBM's Watson is a thinking Ai. You've seen it when in jeopardy, you've seen it when chess games. It can beat the best goal players in the world. So thinking... is getting pretty good. The thinking as is not totally good yet because it kind of has some problems with intuition and it is pretty good with analytics. A deep learning ai is better and better at handling analytics, but the intuition, the intuitive parts, really demand what we call a general intelligence, and general intelligence is is something that every human finds pretty easy but machines find very hard. So anyway, that's the thinking intelligence. That's what's driving people into feeling because people need to do the feeling part that computers can't handle very well. But what's going on now is we have a lot of progress in research on feeling Ai. So, for example, to really be successful and feeling Ai, you have to do two things. You have to recognize emotion in people appropriately and then you have to respond appropriately to that emotion, and both of those things are active areas of research. So, for example, there's a lot of work on facial expressions to try to figure out what people's emotions are from facial expressions. Another area of active research is chatbots, where you have they a computer listening to somebody's voice and trying to figure out what kind of emotions they're having. So that is very far along but not completely there, and that's what we anticipate will be happening really for the next thirty years or so is that the feeling ai is going to take a while to get good, because one of the reasons why general intelligence is easier for humans than it is for computers is that the number of a neural synapses that we have in our brains as greatly greater than any deep learning ai that exists right now. That means what we just overwhelm the AI with, with our ability to handle just simple thinking that any baby can do. But computers are trying to learn, and often what the way they're learning is they actually watch babies, they see what babies do and then they say, okay, how can we emulate that? So, for example, one type of Aidu seeing now is these artificial dogs, and there there are companies that make these artificial dogs and they're actually having them copy the behavior of small animals and babies, because they know that it can't be a very, very complicated thing that is being thought of here, or people, babies wouldn't be able to do it. So they need to figure out how to how to work that, and that is that is advancing. But again, you know, we're talking in twenty, thirty years, probably before that's that's really really good. For that period of time, humans are going to have the edge and feeling. Yeah, and what an interesting thing to think about. And there is some, you know, some forecasting in the book about what it means when the machines can feel as well as humans and or whether it's whether it's possible. Certainly we're making stride. So I want to read another quote from the book and Dig one layer deeper into this kind of thinking versus feeling piece so that people can really understand the consequences, specifically for the work that they're doing as sales professionals and marketers, customer service and customer success professionals, leaders and managers, etc. So here's the quote. In the feeling economy, the most prized skills are likely to be empathy, emotional intelligence, communication and interpersonal relationships. And so again, thinking ai right now is taking over functions, and I'm quoting here too, from a string of activities. Thinking eyes is increasingly taking over processing, analyzing and interpreting information, planning, prioritizing work, making decisions and...

...solving problems. On the other hand, what Ai doesn't do nearly as well is, and I'm quoting here, to judgment, creativity, intuition, emotion, empathy and people skills. So what this kind of casts is a threat that in a way, to stem stem backgrounds and stem activities. And you also cite a Google study of their own HR data about the most important skills in their jobs. you think of Google, is this very progressive engineering based, or at least you know that was there their core strength that get out of the gate, certainly when you think of them as a very technical and stem oriented organization. And yet their most important skills aren't the hardcore analytic skills anymore either. So can you talk about that dynamic a little bit? Yeah, I'm sure that really surprised Google when they found that out. But yeah, we're seeing that really, really everywhere and it's for the exactly the reasons that I've been talking about. If computers can do the the analytical stuff and people get pushed into jobs that require a lot more people skills, and typically this is people skills we're talking about. And you were talking about stem. I'm a stem guy, you know. I was five Beta Kapa and mathematics as an undergraduate. Yeah, I'm definitely stem, but even I, using my stem skills, can figure out the stem skills are going to be less important. Yeah, it's really interesting. What, how aware do you feel like we are culturally or institutionally and higher education? Like, when I read this it was very it took some relief in it because I was also Phi Beta Kappa, but not in mathematics. It's still that's the right thing for today. Over right is it is just because of what I default it too. But like, how aware do you think we are around this, you know, again, broader culturally or more formally inside institutions and systems? I don't think we're aware of it at all. I mean I think the there are a lot of companies out there is saying j you know, these emotional skills and people skills are pretty important. We but, but we think they've always been important. You know, that's what the older people will say. Well, this stuff is always been important, and of course that's true, but what we're saying is that it's even more important than it's ever been before. It's substantially more important than it's ever been before, because that's all that we have left to dominate. Yeah, it's interesting too. I guess it becomes, instead of enabling us to do our thinking jobs, more effectively to have good soft skills. To job becomes soft skills. And Oh, by the way, we may need to complement the machines that are doing most of the thinking, so we need to be able to do a little bit of that too. I like to think of his teams. You know, the the AI and the the human are a team, and the best way for managers to think about it is their teammates. It's not like one is a tool for the other. It's their teammates that that requires a little bit of a shift of thinking. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't means a slight shift in language, but a dramatic shift in how we're actually thinking about an executing the work and for folks are listening for one of the okay, what does this mean for me and my job? I want to allay some fears and then get your feedback on the rolling. So you listed the top ten feeling industries and I'm only going to name four of them specific to the folks, types of folks that listen to the show, coming in at number two with sales and related so congratulation sales people, as long as you're leading into empathy and some of these other soft skills your strengths will continue to be needed as far as this forecast is concerned. Number four was management, because that involves a lot of people, which are the most unpredictable and challenging aspect of most of our work, as you've already said. Number six was education and training. I think that's a key part of a lot of roles, especially on the onboarding, implementation, Customer Success Account Management Side, but certainly across the entire customer life cycle. We need to educate, train and gage, etc. And then, finally, business and financial operations also made the list.

So, although this might feel threatening to some people listening, I took some comfort in seeing this list in general. Some of the other ones, by the way, we're in healthcare, community and social service and some of these other more direct human to human jobs. But I'll read a couple quotes and then just let you react to that list or anything else here, however you prefer. Here's one quote service jobs, emphasizing those soft skills will be booming, for example marketers. Here's another quote. We predict that the service labor market polarization will shift from the bimodal distribution of unskilled versus skilled to a new bimodal distribution of skilled thinking versus skilled feeling. I love that idea. It's really part offul. I never was really comfortable with this idea of unskilled labor. I think it undervalues people. But at some level, you know, these processes did dehumanize and undervalue people and they were essentially humans were left to just do the jobs that machines couldn't quite finish off, whether it's, you know, dexterity and motor skills or something else. Find Motor skills but dumb. As far as this bimodal distribution and some of the jobs that you see being critical, or aspects of jazz being critical in the feeling economy like, what are some what are some thoughts you have around these? Well, one thought I would have is a little bit of an optimistic thought. You know, pretty much every technical expert that I talked to makes the point that when we have these previous shifts of the economy, what happened was people, yes, they had to leave those other jobs. For example, they weren't coal miners anymore, they weren't, you know, assembly line workers anymore. But the point that these people make is that at the same time there are a lot of new jobs created, but the new jobs are of a different type, you know. So, for example, if you're a coal miner in West Virginia, you're not going to stay in West Virginia and mine coal. That's not what you're going to do. You might go to New York City and be a service person. It would be a little bit different. You might have to have a different kind of job and in fact typically the kind of job is for people oriented. And you know, the original shift was from physical to thinking and now we're moving from thinking to feeling and the people who are comfortable in the thinking economy, the Geeks and nerds for example, are making it maybe going to have to think about how to expand their skill set. They're going to either need new training, and that's one thing they think is going to be very important, is continuing education for people who are now kind of misplaced in the economy. The thinking workers are going to need to develop better people skills and that's going to be a big, big part of what happens in continuing education. Key language that I really enjoyed. You call this the major benefit of and the primary economic output of the feeling economy. The word is relationalization. It blends personalization, yeah, economic benefit, and relationship another economic benefit, but of the feeling intelligence. So personalization is thinking intelligence, relationship is feeling intelligence, and he blended those together. How to do arrive at that language and maybe break that apart a little bit more? Way This came together as I done a lot of work over the years and customer relationships and relationship marketing, but then also have done a lot of work in personalization. One of the things that technology does is it creates the opportunity for much closer relationships with customers. That's one of the reasons the service economy is expanding is that you have these closer relationships with customers, and so technology really drives that. It really makes it happen that you're personalizing more and more. And you know, a lot of personalization today happens through technology. For example, a lot of the stuff that's happening online, you know the the various services that appear online. Most of those are really trying to be...

...automatic. They're trying not to have a human involved. It's cheaper that way, and so that's what what happens. You end up even with personalization, even with technology, but but the kind of personalization that is going to be important for human workers in the feeling economy is the kind of personalization that comes from a direct personal relationship, and that's what we're talking about. That's relationalization. It's really good. I've used the language of what is personalized is not always personal and people can feel the difference and I like how how structured this is and it kind of validates something I felt into it if we before and would talk about but didn't have quite the structure around it that you do. Another quote from the book just to put a button on that. A more advanced type of personalization that requires Longitudinal, unstructured emotional data as the input. That's what relationalization is. In this goes back to, you know, the divide you drew is that machines still aren't quite as good at reading emotions reacting appropriate it Lee in the context through multimodal data. It's just really hard for machines to do. And so this is personalization, but with this personal relationship layer tow it really smart. Any other key ideas? I mean we already touched on the gender implications the book touches on and we addressed it a little bit implications for education, the likelihood of increasing income inequality. Actually go here. Maybe the potential for AI to become more enemy than friend. I think a lot of people are scared, a lot of people are excited. They don't know what to make of it. We don't know if true fully developed artificial intelligence that can feel approximately as well as humans do, if that even means it means something like do you have any thoughts about the potential for ai to become more enemy than friend? Is it? What is the potential for it to have its own motivations or intent beyond, you know, partnership with humans in in serving other humans? Well, to be very honest, I don't have a very optimistic view about that. In the long term, we don't have to worry about it too much for about thirty years, but at some point the AI is going to get better than us at everything, and when that happens you have to ask yourself why would a I want us around? What we what can we do for ai they can't do for itself, and that becomes a pretty scary prospect. Now there are some futurists out there. For example, records file the guy who came up with the concept of the singularity, which is when the computers get smarter than us. I mean, he was really of the opinion that this is okay, because what's going to happen is we're all going to become cyborgs. We're going to be part AI and part human and therefore we're going to be bigger and better and more capable than we've ever been before and everything will be great. My view is, why would a I want the human part? You know, if the human part isn't as good as what the a I could do for itself, then why dos a I need us? I think that's a concern. Now we're used to the idea that we control ai and we can. We we program the AI. Therefore we're totally in control the I think that's totally wrong. I think there is a lot of complexity in the world that we don't control. I even think of the Internet as being an intelligence of itself, which is maybe a little bit of an unusual way to think about it, but just think about all the connections. I mean, if you take a look at what's happening in AI, the the deep learning ai is all about emergence. It's about emergent abilities that come from very simple interactions between neurons, and that is that is something that that is really on the way. I...

...mean deep learning is a thousand times your million times better than was twenty years ago. Wow. Yeah, I feel like if we think we're going to be in control of it, we're more talking about automation than intelligence, right, is it? Is that too simple a way to put it? Like, if we think we can control the boundaries and given Structus, I feel like we're essentially just writing complex automation. Intelligence is this thing that has an emergence to it. Yeah, that's right. And Deep Learning, which tends to be more of a thinking sort of machine, we can't really even figure out what it's doing. It's basically a black box. The way, nobody can explain what a deep learning ai output means. Why, I had occurred. You don't have the ability to explain that. It's essentially a black box. So one of the areas of current research is to try to find ways to explain it. The fly wheel effect that you've described in this book of the more machines think, the less humans have to think, the more businesses lean into feeling, the more customers respond to feeling. Therefore, the more businesses lean into feeling, this kind of like this whole thing is in motion, as you already said, the feeling economy is emerging. For listeners and for the lay person who's not nearly as deep into this as you are, what are a couple like key milestones along the way over the next year or five years or ten years? What are a few key aislestones that will remind someone? Oh, yeah, we're in this major shift right now and it feels like it's, you know, closer than it was before. Like what are how will we affirm that we're on the path? And I know that you already have data that already validates that we are on the path. But like, again, for the lay person, what are some observable milestones? Maybe? Well, I'd like to first even just go back in time, because there are things that happened that people didn't recognize that we're very profound. So, for example, the the smartphone and the smartphone was invented. I mean that is basically an Ai for consumers, if you want to think about it that way. I mean, if you want to find out something, what are you going to do? Are you going to go to the library? And look something up. No, you're going to go to your smartphone and you'll find or you'll ask Siri and you know about it in five seconds. You know what the answer is. So that that was something that people didn't realize was a I didn't you realize it, and then they didn't realize what it was doing to them, because what it does to them is it dumbs them down. All those things that used to have to do yourself, now you can go to the smartphone for it, and so what's left? Well, a whole bunch of interacting with people. That's what facebook and friends are all about. You know, you have the ability to interact with people better because you have this technological capability. So any other key ideas that we didn't touch on here that you think are important for people to know about this work in particular, I could I could keep talking to you, by the way. I had several questions about your previous work, specifically on customer lifetime value, but we don't have time for that today. Anything we didn't drive by the you think is important for people to understand. Well, I think I didn't fully answer your question about looking into the future. Oh yeah, exactly. Maybe I should do that please. But I think clearly what we're going to be seeing is, first of all, the AI taking over more and more and more and more the analytics. Right now, already we have ai that's doing things like financial management. You know, that is that is already there. Is already happening now. Maybe it's not as good as the best human financial managers, but we can see this better than it was and it's not very difficult to see that in the not so distant future all the... managers going to be Ai, you know. So when we see that sort of things start to happen, then we realize that things are really different, that in fact people are going to have to find something else to do. You know well, and again, to your point before, become partners, because you know someone might play an intermediary role to represent what's happening, to the degree that obviously our finances are very emotional to us, as much as we like to think it's all rational. The machine is doing the managing and maybe a human is representing what the machine is doing or the results that are happening to the other human who is who is in the service side. You just brought up something really, really important which is the collaborative functioning of humans in AI, because a lot of human customers are kind of uncomfortable having an I told them what to do. They don't like that that much. So, for example, there was this study that was done by one professor on chat bots where if he told people it was a Chatbot, then they didn't like the advice. If they didn't tell people that it was a chatbot and it still was a Chatbot, then you like the advice. So often what you end up with is a situation where you have to have a human in the in the link somewhere to make the customer feel better. When I was at a conference, had one person come up who was working in the financial services industry and he said, you know, I don't really do that technical stuff anymore that I used to do. I used to do all these equations and do all these calculations. I don't do any of that anymore. I the AI does that. I'm a handholder. I want to reassure people when the market goes down. That's the task now it's much more a people job and we see that across the board. You take a look at any job, and we did. We looked at basically hundreds of different kinds of jobs and on average, the feeling, the importance of feeling for humans on the in those jobs is increasing dramatic and that's that's where our predictions come from, that basically feeling is going to be more important than thinking very quickly. Well, ten to fifteen years that's going to be the case and it's already moving in that direction very strongly. Really good, really important. Again, the structures in the book, the shifts between the economies, the types of intelligence. There's another framework in there with five types of intelligence, I including intuitive, which you mentioned, and how why that's challenging for machines to do right now, but it's getting increasingly better. Again, the book is the feeling economy, how artificial intelligence is creating the era of empathy. If you enjoyed this conversation with Rowland, I want to remind you that I learned about the book from my friend Dan Hill, who hosts that Dan Hills eq spotlight. Dan has been a guest on this show before. He is also a collaborator on a new book we've got out called human centered communication, a business case against digital pollution. If you want to learn how to express more empathy, lean into the more human characteristics, even when you're stuck in these digital, virtual and online environments, whether it's through video messages or live video calls. Education presentation. We included Dan and ten other experts in that. You can learn more at Bombombcom book, and we're currently in a summer series where we're in viewing all of those folks again, and you can see them all at Bombombcom podcast. When you're there you can see video clips from this episode and every other one. We do short write ups. We have full searchable audio there. That's all at Bombombcom podcast. Roland, we started where we always start, which is customer experience, and we're going to end where we always end, which is a couple opportunities for you. The first is to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career, and the second is to give a nod or a mention to a company or...

...brand that you personally appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Oh, that's that's those are very interesting questions. Well, for the first one, I think I have to mention my wife. My wife is make way Wang, the CO author on this book. Cool know that. Yes, yes, so we have the world's most longdistance marriage. I think she'd lives in Taiwan about half the time, and so it's pretty pretty long distance, but she's of course, had a tremendous impact. She's a information systems professors. She really knows about all this stuff, and so we we actually started working together, I think, before we got romantically involved, but that was that's the person I would like to recognize the most. Then, as far as a company that I really appreciate in terms of that's that's a lot harder, because there are a lot of a lot of companies that don't do that all that well. Yet what companies are doing wrong is that they're thinking of Ai as a cost reduction method and they shouldn't be thinking about it that way. They should be thinking about it as a way to provide better service for customers, in other words, delight the customer with your ai rather than just not anyway. I think there's this tremendous opportunity to have a I make service better, not just cheaper, and that's often forgotten by companies. Really Important Reminder for folks and it is interesting and it this goes back to this idea that we're in this long slow movement and shift and trend. I think automation was definitely plugged in primarily to reduce cost, because the customer doesn't necessarily benefit from the automation excel itself, except to the degree that that cost is passed forward, whereas intelligence seems much more dynamic and has so much more potential to enhance the customer experience. Right, exactly. So, in other words, we are going to have better customer experiences, but a lot of it is going to be provided by machine. Right, all right. For folks who enjoy this conversation, how can they follow up with you learn more, maybe about some this book and other books that you've written, or anything else where would you direct people to learn more? Well, this book is available on Amazon and if they want to know more about me or my writings, they can google my name, Roland Rush, and I'll pop up super and of course we drop links into those blog post I mentioned. They're all at Bombombcom podcast. He is Roland Rust, I am Ethan be. Thank you so much for listening and Roland, thank you again for a sharing your research with us in this conversation in the book and throughout your career, really appreciate what you're doing. Thanks very much. Even clear communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit Bombombcom podcasts.

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