The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 155 · 3 months ago

155. How Artificial Intelligence is Driving the Feeling Economy w/ Dr. Roland Rust

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In the feeling economy, interpersonal relationships drive the success of organizations. Feelings have always been important, of course, but today they are even more important than they’ve ever been before. 

In this episode, I interview Dr. Roland Rust, Distinguished University Professor at Robert H. Smith School of Business, University of Maryland and coauthor of The Feeling Economy, about the three econ omies and why the feeling economy is the most human.

Roland and I talked about:

- What the role of emotions is in business today

- How the three economies are evolving towards feeling

- What our relationship to AI is and what it could become

- What causes prevalence of feeling industries today, especially sales

- Why rationalization is one of the greatest benefits of the feeling economy

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The AI and the human are a team and thebest way for managers to think about it is their teammates. It's not like oneis a tool for the other and their teammates that that requires a littlebit of a ship to thinking. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host Ethan, but, ironically, as artificial intelligence, is becomingmore able to think human intelligence is de, emphasizing thinking in favor offeeling and interpersonal relationships. The result is a feeling economy. Thisimportant and powerful idea is a quote from a book that I highly recommend,and they will be talking about today on the show. This book is called thefeeling economy, how artificial intelligence is creating the era ofempathy and it's cootered by Mingins and today's guest. Our guest is adistinguished university professor, the Chair and marketing, and founder andExecutive Director of the Center for Excellence and service at the Robert HSmith, School of business at the University of Maryland, he's Co,authored several other books on service marketing, customer lifetime value andrelated topics, he's earned dozens of awards for these books and firstpublished articles he's also consulted with Microsoft, Sony, Eli, Lilly,American Airlines, Fedex and NASA among many other world class organizations.Roll and rust. Welcome to the customer experience podcast thanks very much atoo happy to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. I actually learnedabout your book from a friend of mine in a former podcast gues Dan Hill, whointerviewed Ming on his podcast and Hill, see to spotlight immediatelyafter listening to that interview immediately bought the book. Read itand I felt like I needed to have you on this show so glad to have you and we'regoing to start where we always start, which is customer experience. When Isee customer experience Roland, what does that mean to you? Customer experience means everythingthat happens to the customer during a session with the company or theorganization, so everything that happens really is part of the customerexperience and often we call that the moments of truth, because they're theret e The Times in which the company were the organization really has theopportunity to make its reputation with that customer yeah. I love it. It's inwhat a challenge to manage everything that happens in this moments of truthmoments that matter. I've also heard it is moments of magic or moments ofmisery. You know at these moments are key, I guess in terms of starting toget a handle on the experience. From your perspective, I mean you've beenstudying and teaching essentially around a variety of marketing andservice topics for years. From your perspective, like this rise in the useof the language and practice of customer experience, you feel like it'snew language, for long standing principles and practices, or are we onto something actually truly new right now or are we somewhere in the middle?Why really see it as a continuation? There are people talking about a lot ofthese topics, even in t s and the sort of buzz word. Customerexperience became popular in recent years, but basically it's a lot of thesame things that we've been doing for a long time. It's just that everybody isrecognizing that the customer is very important. The customer experience isvery important because otherwise you turn the customers away, yeah anotheranother question before we dive into...

...the feeling economy. Do you think someof this pressure is driven by the mass movement towards subscription models?It seems like it now. Some things were meant to be sold by subscription. Ifeel like some things evolved to be that way, and now we can even getthings like t, shirts and underpants on subscription. Like do you feel like Ido that and or why why? Why not that the subscription model is driving agreater degree of customer centricity and therefore putting a greaterpriority on moments that matter moments of truth, et Cetera, yeah. I think thebig thing is that companies realized that relationships are the key, andthat means you want to have a continuing contact with that customer,and actually you want to get continuing payments from the custom, that's a lotof where this comes from. So that of course means that you have tokeep the customer. That means you have to satisfy the customer, and if youdon't do those things, then you're not going to have a relationship, you canhave a transaction, and everybody knows that. That's not so good, because oncethe transactions over the customs gone right and with increasing Kack anddecreasing margins transactions in a lot of cases, simply I mean in a lot ofsubscription models. The initial transactions aren't even profitable andhence the need for relationship really good, so the feeling condon before weactually died and die in. I want to say a couple things about it and then beask about a broader view from your perspective. So for folks listeningagain, the book is called the feeling economy I heard about it immediately.Bought it read it. I highly recommend it. It is highly approachable. It isbuilt from years of research that you had done and that your co author haddone, and you lean on other people's research as well, and it's a privilegeof hosing the show I can read a book like that feel like it's relevant tothe folks who listen to the show, and let me know that they're listening andthe kinds of things that they're interested in and so now I can divedeeper and learn more about it myself and then, of course, as a benefit tolisteners into you. I can share the book with other people too. So myquestion for you before we dive into some more of the the specifics of it istalk about the role of feelings, emotions, emotional, intelligence inthe context of business in general, like what are the broad changes that you'veseen to the degree that you've surveyed the scene over over decades and andwhere are we today with regard to these things and like I feel like, I guess,I'm qualifying the question now. It feels like a couple of decades ago. Youjust didn't talk about emotions in business and we just didn't view itthat way. In fact, you would actively try to avoid or suppress emotionscreeping into our work, but I feel like that's gone away both internally withina business and certainly with relationships with customers arecomfort talking about these things, the way that they matter like what are youseeing like from a trends perspective around e feelings, emotions andemotional intelligence? Well, the feelings and emotional intelligence aremuch more important for people in business. Now that sounds like astrange thing to say, you might say well haven, feelings always beenimportant sure they have, but that hasn't been what people were doing. So,for example, if you go back twenty years, call a customer service line onthe telephone. You get a person, and probably you have a very routine issuewith them and they deal with that routine issue, and then somebody elsecalls it has a routine issue and this happens over and over again, and sowhat business has done over the period of time is that they tried to replacethat with automation and the latest and greatest of form of automation isartificial intelligence. So, basically, all these easy things are being done bymachines and the hard things which are basically dealing with people are leftto people, and so you have the the issue of trying to relate to that.Individual has a non routine problem, and so the company really needs tofocus on the emotional side, because...

...that's what drives in her personalrelationships really good and that kind of teas upwhere I want to start with the book. You have a couple key frameworks: oneare the three phases of the economy, physical economy, thinking, economy,feeling economy, so we'll probably start there and then move into aioperating at three different levels and it kind of maps to that mechanical, AiThinking, a I and feeling a I. So you really kind of previewed it, butforgive folks, like the broader context of you, know the feeling economy as itas an emergent economy. We're not there yet for reasons that I'm sure we'lltalk about through the course of the next. You know several minutes butbreak down the the three phases of the economy and kind of the characteristicsof them. Sure the first one is the physical economy, and that was whereyou have a lot of mining and farming and, to some degree, physical, labor ofvarious kinds. So, for example, if you look to a car factory in the earlynineteen hundreds, basically, everybody was making everything by hand. But thenwhat started to happen in the early nineteen hundreds who you started tohave automation come in, and usually it was things like the assembly line andas automation came in, then that made a lot of those manufacturing jobs andfarming, jobs and mining jobs go away because they weren't needed anymore.Those people who are physical workers typically are big and strong tipbecause they were men. You know the the physical economy was very patriarchaltime because men dominated the economy, but then, as automation came in thatkind of even the playing field, because now you didn't need to be big andstrong and who was out there that didn't that wasn't necessarily as bigand as strong was a lot of women out there, and so the women started toreally pick up a lot of ability, for example, lead organizations. You saw alot of women who became the heads of countries that was basically unknown,except for Queens. So anyway, with monarchies, you had some some queenswho were in charge, but but basically the countries for the most part hadmale leaders. So anyway, the physical economy went away. Women started tobecome much more capable in the thinking economy, because they're, justas good at thinking as men are, but now what you have is a second shift.You have a shift from the thinking economy to the feeling economy. It'salready under way. It is not totally there yet, but it's already under way.We can show it through data and in the feeling economy. What webelieve is that women actually have the edge. Not only will they ve even it up,they will have the edge, because women have a stronger capability for empathy,and that is going to be what really wins the day in a situation where youhave all the interpersonal relationships driving the successiveorganizations, so that, of course, parallels like the reason that we'removing from the thinking economy to the feeling economy is that ai has enteredthe picture, and it's gotten very, very good, beyond wrote, automation to doinga lot of these thinking tests so break down those three types of Ai Mechanical,Ai Thinking, a I and feeling a I and kind of tie that back into the shift inthe from thinking to feeling economy. Sure. Well, the physical ai is is whatyou see in a lot of car factories. You know these. You have machines that areputting putting cars together. It's usually used for very repetitive tasks.Now what we're seeing is thinking a I come in so, for example, IBM's Watsonis a thinking Ai. You see it when in jeopardy, you seen it win chess games,you can beat the best gold players in...

...the world. So thinking ai is gettingpretty good. The thinking is not totally good yet because it kind of hassome problems with intuition and it is pretty good with analytics adeep learning. Ai Is better and better handling analytics, but the intuitionthe intuite parts really demand. What we call a general intelligence andgeneral intelligence is is something that every human findspretty easy, but machines find very hard. So anyway, that's the thethinking, intelligence. That's what's driving people into feeling, becausepeople need to do the feeling part that computers can't handle very well, butwhat's going on now is we have a lot of progress in research on feeling a I so,for example, to really be successful in feeling a a you have to do two thingsyou have to recognize emotion in people appropriately, and then you have torespond appropriately to that emotion and both of those things are activeareas of research. So, for example, there's a lot of work on facialexpressions to try to figure out what people's emotions are from facialexpressions. Another area of active research is chat, bots, where you havethe computer listening to somebody's voice and trying to figure out whatkind of emotions they're having so that is very far along, but not completelythere and that's what we anticipate will behappening really for the next thirty years or so. Is that the feeling a guyis going to take a while to get good, because in one of the reasons why generalintelligence is easier for humans than it is for computers? Is that the numberof dural synapses that we have in our brains as greatly greater than any deeplearning ai that exists right now? That means we just overwhelm the AI, withwith our ability to handle just simple thinking that that any baby can do. Butcomputers are trying to learn and often at the way, they're learning is theyactually wash babies? They see what babies do and then they say: Okay, howcan we emulate that? So, for example, one type of Ai you seen now is theseartificial dogs and the there are companies that make these artificialdogs and they're actually having them copy. The behavior of small animals andbabies, because they know that it can't be a very, verycomplicated thing that is being thought of here where people babies wouldn't beable to do it, so they need to figure out how to how to work that, and thatis that is advancing. But again, you know we're talking twenty thirty years,probably before that. That's really really good. For that period of time,humans are going to have the edgin feeling yeah and what an interestingthing to think about, and there is some you know some forecasting in the bookabout what it means when the machines can feel as well as humans and orwhether it's, whether it's possible, certainly were making strides. So Iwant to read another quote from the book and dive just one layer deeperinto this kind of thinking versus feeling peace, so that people canreally understand the consequences specifically for the work that they'redoing as sales professionals and marketers customer service and customersuccess, professionals, leaders and managers et Cetera. So here's the quotein the feeling economy, the most prized skills are likely to be empathy,emotional intelligence, communication and interpersonal relationships, and soagain thinking a I right now is taking over functions, and I'm quoting heretoo, from a string of activity. Stinking eye is, is increasingly takingover processing analyzing, an interpreting information planning,prioritizing work, making decisions and...

...solving problems. On the other hand,what a I doesn't do nearly as well is- and I'm quoting here to judgmentcreativity in tuition, emotion, empathy and people skill. So what this kind ofcast is a threat in a way to stem stem backgrounds and stem activities, andyou also cite a Google study of their own HR data about the most importantskills in their jobs. you think of a google. Is this very progressiveengineering based- or at least you know, that was their core strength? They getout of the gate, certainly when you think of them as a very technical andstem oriented organization, and yet their most important skills aren't thehardcore analytic skills anymore either. So can you talk about that dynamic alittle bit yeah? I'm sure that really surprised Google, when they found thatout but yeah we're seeing that really really everywhere and it's for theexactly the reasons that I've been talking about. If computers can do theamalon stuff, then people get pushed into jobs who require a lot more peopleskills and typically this is people skills were talking about and you aretalking about stem I'm a stem guy. You know I was finding a cap in mathematicsas an undergraduate. You know I'm definitely stemmed, but even I using mystem skills can figure out. The stem skills are going to be less important yeah. It's really interesting. What howaware do you feel like we are culturally or institutionally andhigher education like when I read this, it was very. I took some relief in itbecause I was also five Badaca a but not in mathematics. It's still that'sthe right thing for today, O right is. It is just because of what I defaultedto but like how weird do you think we are around this? You know again,broader, culturally or more formally inside institutions and systems. Idon't think we're aware of it at all. I mean I think, the there are a lot ofcompanies out there saying Gee. You know these emotional skills and peopleskills are pretty important. We, but, but we think they've always beenimportant. You know that's what the older people will say. Well, this stuffis always been important and of course that's true, but what we're saying isthat it's even more important than it's ever been before it's substantiallymore important than it's ever been before, because that's all that we haveleft to dominate yeah it's interesting too. I guess it becomes instead ofenabling us to do our thinking jobs more effectively to have good softskills. The job becomes soft skills and oh by the way, we may need tocomplement the machines that are doing most of the thinking. So we need to beable to do a little bit of that too, but I like to think of it. Has Teams,you know the the AI and the human are a team and the best way for managers tothink about it is their teammates. It's not like one is a tool for the other,it's their teammates, that that requires a little bit of a shift ofthinking. Yeah. Absolutely it does. I mean it's aslight shift in language, but a dramatic shift in how we're actuallythinking about an executing the work and for folks were listening, thoughone o like okay. What does this mean for me in my job? I want to Alay somefears and then get your feedback on this role, and so you listed the topten feeling industries and I'm only going to name four of them specific tothe folks types of folks that listen to the show coming in at number two wassales and related, so congratulation sales people as long as you're leadinginto empathy and some of these other soft skills, your strength willcontinue to be needed. As far as this forecast is concerned, number four wasmanagement, because that involves a lot of people which are the mostunpredictable and challenging aspect of most of our work. As you've alreadysaid, number six was education and training. I think that's a key part ofa lot of roles, especially on the on boarding implementation, customersuccess, Account Management Side, but certainly across the entire customerlife cycle. We need to educate training et age, et Ceta and then finally,business and financial operations also...

...made the list. So, although this mightfeel threatening to some people listening, I took some comfort inseeing this list in general. Some of the other ones by the way were inhealth care, community and social service, and some of these other moredirect human to human jobs, but I'll read a couple quotes and then just letyou react to that list or anything else here. However, you prefer here's. Onequote: Service jobs emphasizing those soft skills will be booming, forexample, marketers here's another quote: We predict that the service labormarket polarization will shift from the BIMOTA distribution of unskilled versusskilled to a new bi modal distribution of skilled thinking versus skilledfeeling. I love that idea. It's really part. I I never was really comfortablewith this idea of unskilled labor. I think it undervalues people, but atsome level you know these processes did dehumanize and undervalue people andthey were essentially humans were left to just do the jobs that machinescouldn't quite finish off, whether it's you know dexterity and motor skills orsomething else, fine motor skills, but as far as this bimota distribution andsome of the jobs that you see being critical or aspects of jazz beingcritical in the feeling economy like what are some. What are some thoughtsyou have around these, but one thought I would have is a little bit of anoptimistic thought. You know pretty much. Every technical expert that Italked to makes the point that when we have these previous shifts of theeconomy, what happened was people? Yes, they hadto leave those other jobs, for example, they weren't coal miners anymore orthey weren't. You know assembly line workers anymore, but the point thatthese people make is that at the same time there are a lot of new jobscreated, but the new jobs are of a different type. You know so, forexample, if you're a coal miner in West Virginia you're not going to stay inWest Virginia and mine coal, that's not what you're going to do. You might goto New York City and be a service person. It would be a little bitdifferent. You might have to have a different kind of job. In fact,typically, the kind of job is for people oriented, and you know theoriginal shift was from physical to thinking and now we're moving fromthinking to feeling and the people who are comfortable in the thinking economy.The the GEEKS and Nerds, for example, are making. I may be going to have tothink about how to expand their skill, set they're going to either need newtraining, and that's one thing that I think is going to be very important iscontinuing education for people who are now kind of misplaced in the economy.The thinking workers are going to need to develop better people skills andthat's going to be a big big part of what happens in continuing education,key language that I really enjoyed. You call this the major benefit of and theprimary economic output of the feeling economy. The word is relationalism, itblends personalization economic benefit and relationship, another economicbenefit, but of the feeling intelligence. So personalization isthinking. Intelligence relationship is feeling intelligence and we blendedthose together. How did you arrive at that language and maybe break thatapart a little bit more? The way this came together as I done a lot of workover the years and customer relationships and relationshipmarketing, but then also have done a lot of work in personalization. One ofthe things that technology does is it creates the opportunity for much closerrelationships with customers. That's one of the reasons the service economyis expanding. Is that you have these closer relationships with customers,and so technology really drives that it really makes it happen that you'repersonalizing more and more- and you know a lot of personalization day-happens through technology. You know, for example, a lot of the stuff that'shappening online. You know the the various services that appear online.Most of those are really trying to be...

...automatic, they're trying not to have ahuman involved. It's cheaper that way, and so that's what what happens you end up, even withpersonalization, even with technology, but but the kind of personalizationthat is going to be important for human workers in the feeling economy is thekind of personalization that comes from a direct personal relationship andthat's what we're talking about. That's relational ization, it's really good.I've used the language of what is personalized is not always personal andpeople can feel the difference, and I like how how structured this is, and itkind of validates something I felt into it if free before and would talk about,but didn't have quite the structure around it that you do another quotefrom the book just to put a button on that, a more advanced type ofpersonalization that requires Longitudinal, unstructured emotionaldata d as the input that's what relational ization is- and this goesback to you know. The divide you drew is that machines still aren't quite asgood at reading emotions reacting appropriately in the context throughmultimodal data. It's just really hard for machines to do, and so this ispersonalization, but with this personal relationship layer to it really smart,any other key ideas, I mean we already touched on the gender implications. Thebook touches on and we addressed it a little bit implications for education.The likelihood of increasing income and equality actually go here. Maybe thepotential for AI to become more enemy than friend. I think a lot of peopleare scared. A lot of people are excited, they don't know what to make of it. Wedon't know if true fully developed, artificialintelligence that can feel approximately as well as humans do. Ifthat even needs it, it means something like do. You have any thoughts aboutthe potential for ai to become more enemy than friend. Is it? What is thepotential for it to have its own motivations or intent beyond? You know,partnership with humans in serving other humans. Well. To be very honest,I don't have a very optimistic view about that. In the long term, we don'thave to worry about it too much for about thirty years, but at some pointthe AI is going to get better than us at everything, and when that happens,you have to ask yourself. Why would a I want to surround what? What can we dofor a I t they can't do for itself, and that becomes a pretty scary prospect.Now there are some futurists out there, for example, recruits file the guy whocame up with the concept of the singularity, which is when thecomputers get smarter than us. He was really of the opinion that thisis okay, because, what's going to happen, is we're all going to becomesideboards, we're going to be part, AI and part human and therefore we'regoing to be bigger and better and more capable than we've ever been before,and everything will be great. My view is, why would a I want thehuman part you know if the human part isn't asgood as what the AI could do for itself, then why does a I need us? I thinkthat's a concern. Now we're used to the idea that we control ai and we can wewe program the AI, therefore we're totally in control the I think that'stotally wrong. I think there is a lot of complexity in the world that wedon't control, I even think of the Internet as being an intelligence ofitself, which is maybe a little bit of an unusual way to think about it. Butbut just think about all the connections I mean, if you take a lookat what's happening in AI. The the deep larning AI is all about. Emergence isabout emergent abilities that come from very simple interactions betweenneurons, and that is...

...that is something that that is really on theway I mean deep learning is you know a thousand times your a million timesbetter than it was twenty years ago, wow yeah, I feel like if we think we'regoing to be in control of it, we're more talking about automation thanintelligence right is it? Is that too simple a way to put it like? If wethink we can control the boundaries and given structure, I feel like we're,essentially just writing complex automation, intelligence is this thingthat has any emergence to it: yeah, that's right and deep learning, which tends to be moreof a thinking, sort of machine. We can't really even figure out what it'sdoing. It's basically a black box. We, nobody can explain what a deep learning ai output meansand why it occurred. You don't have the ability to explain that it'sessentially a black box, so one of the areas of current research is to try tofind ways to explain it. The fly wheel effect that you've described in thisbook of the more machines think the less humans have to think the morebusinesses lean into feeling the more customers respond to feeling. Therefore,the more businesses lean into feeling this kind of like this whole thing isin motion. As you already said, the feeling economy is emerging forlisteners and for the La Person Who's not nearly as deep into this as you are.What are a couple like key mile stones along the way over the next year orfive years or ten years? What are a few key mile stones? That will remindsomeone, Oh yeah, we're in this major shift right now, and it feels like it's,you know closer than it was before like what are? How will we affirm that we'reon the path- and I know that you already have data that alreadyvalidates that we are on the path but like again for the lay person? What aresome observable mile stones? Maybe oh I'd like to first even just go backintime, because there were things that happened, that people didn't recognizethat we're very profound so, for example, the the smartphone and asmartphone was invented. I mean that is basically an AI for consumers. If youwant to think about it, that way I mean, if you want to find out something. Whatare you going to do? Where are you going to go to the library and look something up?No you're going to go to your smartphone and you'll, find or you'llask Syrie, and you know about it in five seconds. You know what the answeris, so that that was something that people didn't realize was a I and thenyou realize it, and then they didn't realize what it was doing to them,because what it does to them as it dumbs them down all those things thatyou used to have to do yourself. Now you can go to the smartphone for it andso what's left well a whole bunch of interacting with people. That's whatfacebook and friends are all about. You know you have the ability to interactwith people better because you have this technological capability, so anyother key ideas that we didn't touch on here. That you think are important forpeople to know about this work. In particular, I could I could keeptalking to you by the way I had several questions about your previous work,specifically on customer lifetime value, but we don't have time for that today.Anything we didn't drive by that you think is important for people tounderstand. Well, I think I didn't fully answeryour question about looking into the future. Oh yeah right, maybe I shoulddo that please, but I think clearly what we're going to be seeing is, firstof all the AI, taking over more and more and more and more of the Elemiright now already we have ai that's doing things like financial management.You know that is. That is already. There is already happening now, maybeit's not as good as the best human financial managers, but we can see thisbetter than it was, and it's not very difficult to see that in the not sodistined future, all the financial...

...managers going to Bai, you know. Sowhen we see that sort of thing start to happen, then we realize that things arereally different, that in fact people are going to have to find somethingelse to do. You know, will and again to your point before become partners,because you know someone might play an intermediary rule to represent what'shappening to the degree that obviously our finances are very emotional to usas much as we like to think it's all rational. The machine is doing themanaging and maybe a human is representing what the machine is doingor the results that are happening to the other human who is who's in theservice. I you just brought up something really really important,which is the collaborative functioning of humans in AI, because a lot of humancustomers are kind of uncomfortable having an eye told them what to do. They don't like that that much so, forexample, there was this study that was done by one professor on Chat Bots,where if he told people it was a chat, but then they didn't like the advice,if they didn't tell people that I was a chap pot and it still was a chat bythen he like the advice. So often what you end up with. It is a situationwhere you have to have a human in the in the link somewhere to make thecustomer feel better. When I was at a conference, have one person come up?who was working in the facial services industry? And he said you know, I don'treally do that technical stuff anymore, that I used to do. I used to do allthese equations and do all these calculations. I don't do any of thatany more I, the AI. Does that I'm a hand holder. I want to reassure peoplewhen the market goes down. That's the task. Now it's much more of a peeplejob and we see that across the board. You take a look at any job and we did.We looked at basically hundreds of different kinds of jobs and, on average,the feeling the importance of feeling for humans on the in those jobs isincreasing, dramatic and that's that's where our predictions come from thatthat basically, the feeling is going to be more important than thinking veryquickly it ten or fifteen years. That's going to be the case, and it's alreadymoving in that direction. Very strongly, really good, really important. Again:The structures in the book, the shifts between the economies, the types ofintelligence there's another framework in there with five types ofintelligence I, including intuitive, which you mentioned, and the- how wethat's challenging for machines to do right now, but it's gettingincreasingly better again. The book is the feeling economy. How artificialintelligence is creating the era of empathy? If you enjoyed thisconversation with Roland on to remind you that I learned about the book frommy friend Dan Hill, who host that Dan Hills, eq spotlight Dan, has been aguest on this show before he's also a collaborator on a new book, we've gotout called human centered communication, a business case against digitalpollution. If you want to learn how to express more empathy lean into the morehuman characteristics, even when you're stuck in these digital virtual andonline environments, whether it's through video messages or live videocalls education presentation, we included Dan and ten other experts inthat you can learn more at bomboost and we're currently in a summer serieswhere we're interviewing all of those folks again, and you can see them allat Bombo podcast when you're there. You can see video clips from this episodeand every other one. We do short write. UPS. We have full searchable audiothere, that's all at bomboost Roland. We started where we always start, whichis customer experience and we're going to end where we always end, which is acouple opportunities for you. The first is to think or mention someone who'shad a positive impact on your life or...

...career, and the second is to give a nodor a mention to a company or brand that you personally appreciate for theexperience that they deliver for you as a customer. Oh that's, that's! Thoseare very interesting questions. Well, for the first one, I think I have tomention my wife. My wife is made quite long, the coauthor on this book cool. Idid not know that. Yes, yes, so we have the world's most long distancemarriage. I think she lives in Taiwan about half the time, and so you knowit's pretty pretty long distance but she's. Of course he had a tremendousimpact, she's a information systems, professors she really knows about allthis stuff, and so we we actually started working together. I thinkbefore we got romantically involved, but that was that's the person. I would like torecognize the most then as far as a company that I really appreciate interms of that's that's a lot harder, becausethere are a lot of a lot of companies that don't do that, all that. Well, yetwhat companies are doing wrong is that they're thinking of Ai as a cossreduction method, and they shouldn't be thinking about it that way they shouldbe thinking about it as a way to provide better service for customers,in other words, delight the customer with your ai rather than just not anyway. I think there's thistremendous opportunity to have a I make service better, not just cheaper, andthat's often forgotten by companies really important reminder for folks,and it is interesting and if this goes back to this idea, that we're in thislong slow movement and shift and trend, I think automation was definitelyplugged in primarily to reduce cost, because the customer doesn'tnecessarily benefit from the automation excel itself, except to the degree thatthat cost is passed forward, whereas intelligence seems much more dynamicand has so much more potential to enhance the customer experience rightexactly so. In other words, we are going to have better customerexperiences, but a lot of it is going to be provided by machine right allright for folks who enjoyed this conversation. How can they follow upwith you learn more maybe about some this book and other books that you'vewritten or anything else. Where would you direct people to learn more well?This book is available on Amazon and if they want to know more about me or mywritings, they can google my name Rollin, Rust and pop up super and, ofcourse, we drop links into those blog posts. I mentioned they're all atBumbum podcast. He is roll and rust. I am Ethan, but thank you so much forlistening and Roland. Thank you again for a sharing your research with us inthis conversation in the book and throughout your career, reallyappreciate what you're doing in to re much reason: Clear: communication,Human Connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits ofadding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do withjust a little guidance to pick up the official book. Rehumanize, yourbusiness, how personal videos, accelerate sales and improve customerexperience learn more in order today, at Bombon book, that's B, O m B ComboBuck thanks for listening to the customer experience. podcast rememberthe single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers, continue learning the latest strategiesand tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visitBom Bombo podcast t.

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