The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 146 · 3 months ago

146. Getting Clear on Who You Are and How You Serve w/ Anthony Coundouris


When you present who you are — your core beliefs — to the customer, do you get head nods, indifference, or hostility? All 3 are great responses, actually. If they’re nodding, they probably share your beliefs. That’s a key tenet of quadrant 3: who we are.

In this episode, I interview return guest Anthony Coundouris, Founder at run_frictionless and author of run_frictionless, about how Q3 (who we are) and Q4 (how we serve) fit in the overall 4-part frictionless framework.

Anthony and I also talked about:

- Why sharing beliefs should be the beginning of every PowerPoint

- How to evaluate the 3 types of response to who you are

- What happens to revenue when you fit the quadrants together

- What vanity values are

- How to start conversations with less friction

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Anthony Coundouris on LinkedIn 

- Company: run_frictionless

- Book: run_frictionless

- Xero Accounting Software

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog. Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Customer Experience in your favorite podcast player.

Or sharing belief sets in motion a setof few rational buying courses that are nelly impossible for a competitor tomimic the irrational buying forts are so strong that, even when sales productoperations, people are screwing up, customers keep buying because theybelieve in the brand. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host ethan beaute, just over one year ago, on episode. Seventy nine ofthis podcast. We learned a four part framework for a frictionless experience.It involves the alignment across four quadrans quadrant, one who we servequadrant, what we serve quadrant three, who we are and quadrant for how weserve now. The creator of this run frictionless framework is back to sharehis new insights and evolutions. After implementing this approach, in manymore organizations since we last spoke, will especially focus on quadrans threeand four who we are and how we serve, because that's where experience anddifferentiation are created, our guest brings a decade of experience,consulting technology and sass companies, with an emphasis on earlystages and a focus on sales and marketing systems that producepredictable revenue. He's the founder of two companies himself and the authorof the book run. Frictionless anthony can dor us welcome back to the customerexperience podcast yep. Thank you for having me at them. Yeah we've beenwe've been talking about getting this getting back together for anotherrecorded conversation for a while happy to do it and again. Last time weconnected was a bit over a year ago, and you were in a small town in ruralthailand near the border with malaysia, because ovid was just starting tospread. He had some questions about the vietnamese government, which is whereyou were staying at the time like you're like a kind of an exile orsomething like. Where are you and how are you i'm just as well as i was then,and these days, though, i've relocated to the northern beaches in sydney, sothe weather is much different. It's getting a bit cooler now settling into a winter you're oppositethe states yeah, so we just in autumn and were starting to get those thosebright sunny days. But you stand in the shade and you lose a couple of degreesyeah. I know how that goes. A we're in bomboma's based in colorado springs.Most of us are here, there's a bunch of people in denver and some far flungfolks as well, and it can be like a beautiful afternoon, but the minute thesun gets behind the mountains, like we're, pressed right up on the mountsas soon as and it could be as early as you know, four o'clock in the afternoonand all of a sudden just temperature drops on you awesome. Well, it's goodto see you again, i'm glad you got through that whole experience. I feellike there's light at the end of the tunnel here with regard to the pandemic,and i'm excited to talk again with youabout the four quadrants, but before we do that we'll kind of tea it up alittle bit i'll. Ask you the same question. I asked you a year ago andit'll be fun to look back to see what your impression was at the time orthoughts were at the time when i say customer experience to you anthony whatcomes to mind, what does it mean to you? I think it means what does it feel liketo become a customer of your business? You know creating a good or badexperience is not the focus. It's about the kind of experience you want tocreate that projects the right beliefs from the moment of contact. I love it.I like this beliefs, piece, it's it's deep and we will get into beliefs.Obviously it's critical to quadrant three in particular. The thing i likeabout beliefs is that it sounds very deep, but obviously has maybe a valuesorientation. It may not always be conscious, so it's potentially ridesthe line between feeling and thought...

...when you say beliefs. What kind of whatdoes that evoke for you? Well, it's based on a phenomenon called culturalidentification. So if you would have a look on wikipedia s quite well spiltout there, this concept of people's feeling of belonging to one another andwhat beliefs does it is able to tap into these irrational buying forceswhich make us feel like that we've been belong to a brand as opposed to justbuying from a brand yeah irrational buying forces was something that wasreally exciting to me, a when i read run friction list and b when weinitially connected on episode. Seventy nine of this show i just love theconcept like it's something that you know when you explain it, everyone willnod head to go io yeah, of course, yeah. There are things that motivate us.Besides, you know. Price features, benefit convenience et cetera, but theyare beyond reason. You know they are feeling based, and so i really lovethat language. So a couple more things before we dive deeper into that. So,with regard to customer experience, i know you've consulted companies foryears, so you get to see different companies at different stages, perhapsand different types of businesses, or at least different segments ofbusinesses. Do you see in general, are organizations most effective inimplementing pieces that support a good customer experience when they focus onit as a role, team or a function or perhaps when it's more of kind of thisbackground cultural element or transcendent cultural element or ethosof the company like? How do you see that i mean because i'm sure you'vebeen in organizations where they may have appointed someone that director ofc x or a cx team, or something like that like? How have you seen that playout in real life yeah so like through our experience, fifty percent of thecompany, we serve a pre revenue, so they're on a road to trying to get torevenue and then the balance of companies. We work with have beenoperating for more than five years, and it's really about helping the foundersor sales leaders free themselves from the south roll in the former. Theinvestment of money is predominantly in quadrante, which is what we serve.That's where they emphasize the the majority of the cash that comes in fromshareholders, and it makes a lot of sense, because shareholders been quitefynical about the way that the money is being spent want to see that it's beingspent on tech and what they tend to do is is they will try to acquirecustomers and then, as the customers begin coming into their selves final,they will get begin trying to backfield. The customer experiencing quadrantalestry to build that out later. Yes, sometimes out of desperation or force.Perhaps yes, but it's me, it's certainly a muchmore important play in a larger organization. But what's for otherinteresting, though, that i've seen is the startups that have really switchedon to customer experience, i quadrant for one of the reasons why they can beso devastating against an enterprise organization. It's because they'llstrike a quadrant one for fit so they'll doll, narrow quadrant. On thewho we serve down to a handful of customer profiles. They will take thevery small budget that they have very limited resources. They have and buildindividual tracks in quidine, sir or map against those profiles, and theycreate much better experiences in enterprise companies, even though,technically speaking, enterprise company can help far superior productin quatuor. So before we get too deep in q, one t three four: the fitsbetween them just break it down for folks catch them. We don't need to gosuper deep because we did that in the first one, but but for the sake of theconversation, so for folks who are listening when you hear a quadrant wantits who we serve when you hear quatern for its how we serve how we serve as abit of kind of the cx piece of it, you...

...know: how do we actually deliverproduct service value and who do we do that for specifically but break thosedown a little bit for us sure, then so quartrain who we serve today tomorrowand never so so, as he said, it focuses on the customer profile and quatrinowhat we serve. This is typically what we're serving to quadian is generally aproduct or a service, and quetan three were touched on a little bit, who weare unlike quadrants, one and two which you can get a fit with one anotherquadrant threes ubiquitous it's about, i believe, so it cuts across all threequadrans and the last one happens to be my favorite at squadron. Four focuseson the precise number of interactions required to create a customer awesome,and so, when we talk about fits, we talk about. Actually how about youdescribe it in your own words, when you, when you say there's a fit betweenthese two quadrans like an organization, is found a way to make one fit with theother. What does that mean? And what's the benefit to the company and to thecustomer yeah, you know a big influence camefrom mark a grasing, the co founder of net cape who coined the idea of the theproduct market fit and for a lot of us it was like a like low moment. You knowhe made this metaphor so brilliant and then, rather than thinking aboutbuilding a business as sort of this linea progressional steps, one two andthree make is saying: it's one, two then one, then two and then one again.So i really like this sort of metaphor of a fit. However, a product market wasa little bit too broad and i need something more grand yola, so the forkques encourages the users to play or fit one quadroom with another. So today,we've identified at least eight kinds of plays or fits that one can use withthe forces awesome. When we talk about three and four three and four of myfavorites as well, i don't know if it's three or four that you know you wrotethe book on it and you teach it and you build it into organization, so you'remuch closer to it than i am. But you know one of the things i like aboutthem. So much, and one of the reasons that i, like t, you've identified anevolution beyond product market fit. Is this key idea that one and two are farless defensible than three and four that three and four are wheredifferentiation and experience are created and one and two are kind of imean i guess to use a generic term table stakes like we have to have agood enough product. It needs to do what it says it does. We need to bepretty clear about who we're serving, but frankly, any competitor, especiallysince you know, you're focusing on startups can identify a market to goafter and they're never going to, and by market i mean a t one right who weserve. They can identify, maybe a niche, as you already described, and buildproduct for it, but it's never going to be a better product than perhaps what's outthere already in the way to differentiate of courses in three andfour, and so, let's get into those like who we are. When i hear that, i thinkokay, some self reflection, but it's how much of it is about like whenyou're helping people with to focus in on who we are, how much of it is likeinternally focused in naval gazing, perhaps like with a kind of a flatter,a negative connotation to it versus this broader context of who are weserving? Where did we come from? What's going on in the market at large, likehow much of it is like truly internal values, based that we're going to thenproject forward and yeah? I guess i'll stop there for that question how it'sgoing to package in two more questions save die. Okay, i think t e the thoughtis in is the value in whether somebody shares the belief or is the value inthe belief itself, and i think the big...

...distinction with my model and certainlymckinsey models seem to agree with me that the value is not in the belief,because we can all have a belief of mission of vision. The question is:does anybody share that belief? Because if we're talking about something thatwhere nobody is listening and we're not gathering anybody to ourcause by quadrate, one three fit is powerful, because it will gather staff,customers and shareholders to begin talking and thinking about the samethings that we are and in a sense, were creating a cosmos, a community ofpeople around us who will become staff, customers and shareholders over time,and you may remember back from our first podcast together, see if this rings a bill. Sharingbelief sets in motion a set of irrational buying forces that arenearly impossible for a competitor to mimic. So the irrational buying forceis so strong that, even when sales product operations, people are screwingup, customers keep buying because they believe in the brand. Do you rememberthat? Oh absolutely yeah it is, i mean it buys us patience and grace when weneed it. I've been the beneficiary of that purtab, especially in the earlierdays when we were just trying to make sure keep everything on the rails. Imean we're bootstrap company, and so you know, we've never been sitting ontens of millions of dollars to deploy to solve problems we had to like figurethem out really in real time, and i think we had you know been kind enoughand thoughtful enough and careful enough with enough people andprojecting how we see the world and, having that be a touch point for peopleto say yeah. This isn't just about video. This is about being morepersonal and more human. This is about better relationships, et cetera, and ithink some of that the shared belief, women, we weren't even great atexpressing it at the time, except that it was just kind of the default in ourin our content, marketing in our social media, in the way that we on boardedour team members. So the customers got it in customer facing experience withour particularly with our sales team and r and our care team, because that'swhere a lot of the touch points are like human to human. So i think it waspresent, even though we weren't super intentional about it, and i think thatcame from and i'll flip it it into a question a little bit. It came fromhaving the same set of core values as an organization since i joined thecompany a decade ago and having approximately the same kind of amission, but not in like a stick it up on the wall standpoint, but a a trulylived thing that we talk about consistently. So talk about fororganizations that you've seen do it well, so there's definitely adifference between a belief and a share belief. You know, and the difference isyou know. Are you thinking this in your own head or is there a community builtaround? This concept is one way to frame it for folks who are doing itwell, whatdoes it mean to like how do we express this belief in a way thatother people can identify with it, and perhaps probably the strongest thing isto participate in it with you at some level like what are some? You know,nuts and bolts for folks who are listening like yeah. We have strongconvictions, we have a point of view about the world, we're passionate abouthow we solve things like how how do people make sure that the belief getsshared well, one of the reasons why it's so difficult to operational, iz es,because it's exactly the way you describe it's not just a bunch of words.We put up on a wall so, unfortunately, quite often advertising agencies.Branding companies really can't help us figure this out at something that comesfrom within us, and it has to be shared equally among customers, shareholdersand staff in order for it to work because share belief is inside out.This is why it's so operational y difficult to pull off one piece ofadvice i could give on sharing or equate one three fi aroundour customer, so i like to think of a... as being a battle of believebefore it's a battle over product. So, a couple of years ago, we startedbuilding part point presentations pitch decks for companies and what we begandoing was was isolating or dedicating the first five slides to discovering ifwe have a quadrant one, three fit with the audience, and this is where, whenwe were talking about the kind of problem that were trying to solve andour approach, we were describe that over the first five slides, there's noproduct there we're just talking about a problem and our, u nigua ofreproaching and solving it, and what we're looking for from the audience was.Are we getting indifference? Are we getting head nodding or are we gettinghostility and all three are great by the way, allthrough you, a terrific, if you're getting head noting? What quite afterwill happen is is that this is an indication that they have shared yourbelief. This is typically when the recipients will look at you and go. Youknow what i've been saying this as well. Let me tell you about how it's beentroubling us and they will describe the problem in their own wordsindifferences when well they're, looking at their phones and really notlistening or being engaged, because they probably don't share the beliefand hostility is just as exciting, although very confronting, becausepeople are prepared to fight over their beliefs, they will defend them. So ifthey truly don't believe in the direction that you're taking, you wantto figure that out in the first five slides, because what we would thenteach the sales organization to do as well fellows you might as well justpack up after that, there's no point getting to the other twenty slides onthe product, because you get through product at them all day, but if theydon't believe in, if they don't share that belief with you all the product inthe world ain't going to change it. First of all, do you think that this isan overlooked opportunity for a lot of companies? For example, when you engagea new kind? Is this something that you're introducing to them, or even inyour observations of the market at large? Like do you feel like this is anunder underappreciated opportunity for a lot of organizations yeah, it is look,i'm not a spouse in ruthlessness, only sanity, you know when people don'tshare your belief, we can't change them. We've done extensive experiments ontrying to change that customers, belief and the results are very disappointingwas seeing like two to three per cent of people. We can change and whathappens is is that when you allow them to stay inside of sales, funnel thesales people are trying to figure out? Why is it that we have so many problemswith these individuals later? Why is it that they're not purchasing properlythey don't they give us the wrong kind of intelligence that use our product ina way it wasn't designed for? Is it all stemming from them notsharing your belief, and so the best thing that we can do for both thecustomer and our organization is politely escort them from the salespatel. You left it right there, which is where i wanted to go with it,because you know i wanted to get your point of view on that and then go tothis next piece, which is in my intuition. I guess i don't know nearlyas much about it as you do. My assumption is that, obviously to saythis is who we are. This is what we believe. This is how we see the world.This is how we approach this obviously require some level ofvulnerability. It puts us up for scrutiny and judgment in a way thatjust saying like hey check out this product doesn't quite, and so i thinkmy god is that two things are going on. One humans are a little bit afraid ofbeing this open and vulnerable with their with their point of view, andthen the other one is they're, afraid or anxious about turning anybody offlike i want all of the dollars that i can have you know, especially at thisstage and i'm afraid to escort people. Politelyout of the sales funnel likeare those the two tensions and what...

...else might be going on there? Like whydo people not do this? More often, i think that that feeling ofvulnerability is something very real. I remember when a law firm in singaporebegan using the fork cus last year and after seeingthe the folk he's over you, the pitch i found us so it turns to me says: oh, mygoodness, quadrant three, it's like having my pants pull down, and iproceeded to explain to him that in my second start up when i presented thebusiness concept, some of the pages that we developed on the website someof the collateral i presented this to a copyright. I said: look we need somepositioning done with like a tag line would like a would like to help youuncover what our belief looks like. Could you help us and he he turns to meand says your tag? Lone, for this accounting firm will be, go beagle gohome and i was just shell shocked. You know,like i remember, walking around with the business car the which we justprinted up out of a laser pre nat. So i just mocked it up quickly in a laserprinter and i would hand it out with this belief, saying: go beagle go homeand then watching the faces of people as they looked at it, and it took meabout two weeks to get climate tites to it and only after two weeks of handingit out. I i then turn to him and say the response has been remarkable.People really understand the belief and they share it. Let's go ahead and getthis thing properly printed, and what do you think it was that was resonantabout it like it. So when i hear that i can see how you would get probably nota lot of indifference, a fair number of head nods and some hostility like howdid that go? What were those two weeks like well, the hostility wasconfronting, so i still remember getting some of that then i sort of iwas telling myself that there are just going to be people who are not going to understand mymission on my vision, and i want to get them out of the way as my clas possibleand just by being completely up front about it and putting it on my businesscard. I can start that discussion with them straight away, so the people whoread it went: oh okay, so this is not just about accounting you're. Thinkingabout my bigger goal as to how i want to grow, a company may be solid, and isaid that's exactly right: you're not coming to get here to get accountingservices you're interested about how you can grow your business and howeventually you might be able to sell it, and it resonated with a lot of peopleand they became customers very good. Let's hit two more kind of cautions orobservations about q, three and then i'll get into c for a little bit. Twomore like one. You write a little bit about vanity values and the dangerthere, which is kind of a bridge into q. For because, if it's vanity, then it'sgoing to be difficult to operational ize in t for how we serve and then theother one where i think a lot. Probably some people hang up beyondvulnerability beyond not having the discipline to say no to people which iskind of a q one issue to, but i think a lot of people started their businessessimply to essentially generate a pro off it, which it might be a belief youshare with other co owners of the business. But no one else probably muchcares and so talk about those folks that are kind of undertaking, anexercise that were really very revenue or ideally, profit driven and also anycautions around vanity values. Yeah. Okay, let's look at your firstquestion then, which is really a quadrat one to fit so the by product ofa quadrant one to feel his revenue, and what i like about the fort curses isthat, depending on what kind of decision you have to make today, youcan isolate that. So you don't always have to be talking about a quadro one,three fit some days. You know you may... an organization which has phenomenalsuccess in creating a community but you're terrible at productize it, andso you really need to be thinking about a quadrant one to it, and typicallythat's where a lot of shareholders, people who are invest in your business,that's where they want the focus of the discussion to go. They want to seerevenue. They want to see that the valley propositions are working, thatthe product we're creating, is being mapped correctly against the profilesthat we serve. So there's nothing wrong with that and completely okay, but ithink what some what's probably better to do is to try to bring inshareholders who came in more through a quadrant one three fit and had somekind of allegiance to the beliefs of the company, as opposed to just beingrevenue focused only and that's the only discussion that they're interestedin yeah maybe give me a go at vanity values. I mean i just the word aloneand i think i like to play in part because vanity, metrics or somethingthat are always fun to talk about, because it forces us to think aboutwhat really matters. Do you see vanity values in a similar way yeah. So whathappened was in twenty two: twenty tam work now who's a change managementconsultant singapore started to help me to understand operational, zingquadrante. So you have your your shared belief, which is a single sentence.Then what happens is, is you have say two or three values which just help tooperationis it there things which under pend the belief, because quite often asstaff every day we're trying to make decisions, and it's really difficult tounpack belief and then try to try to say to yourself. How does that help memake a decision out, whereas two or three values is perfect and what teamwas explaining to me was. Is that we need to build routines? Okay- and itook it one step further, and so why don't we build those routines bydemonstrating the value that those values in quadrant for and the rulethat i set was, i said to organizations i said: look for every value you havein quadrant three. You need to demonstrate it once in quadrant, forotherwise we are in a situation where we have vanity values where we can haveall sorts of things that we can claim about ourselves, but the moment that weplace the dollar value on that interaction. We say we're prepared toinvest money, to demonstrate to customers, to admist rat, to staff thatthis value is really important to us. I can get an organization to go from tenvalues down to two very, very quickly how bad so i mean the bridge. Is there? Whydon't you just go ahead and build it out and cross it, which is take us into q for like like how weserve like what are the key ideas here that you know when we think aboutoperational izing values and when we think about all of the framework ingeneral? What are some key things to focus on in q for an thanks than ithink come even during covet? I i've noticed that some, if we can't createan exceptional, unique and interesting experience for customers andquadrantaria for god's sake, just serve them quickly. I think serving customersexpediently and faster than our competitors is the minimum standard forquadrantaria. You can ever wow them if you can never surprise them and dosomething different just do it quickly and i think, for most companies, that'stheir first goal is to really set a bench mark for what is customer expire?How fast will a customer disappear from quadroone? You know lie. We know thatdecision, making there consciously or unconsciously will look will appoint acertain amount of time to make a decision a better by decision i want tomake today and there could be anything from eleven minutes to eleven months, so understandingcustomer expiry and then building our...

...self processes to exceed the expire isnot a very good thing to do, because they expire and don't make a decisionall the efforts that we do in quadro for a lot that investments gone. So ifanything, one thing we can do is just serve them faster. Have you seen anyorganizations extend expiry and- or i guess i'm going to ask a one forfeithere is: have you seen companies be successful in identifying? You know?I'm gonna, i mean you said eleven minutes to eleven months. Obviously,there's so many variables there, but i'm going to say or for a businesswhere, let's just say, standard ixpires is three months. You know people eithergo all in or they bail in a three month window. I'm going to guess that ifthat's the average across a body of customers that some of them might besix months and some of them might be one month and so a have you seen,anyone extend the window of expiry to give themselves like a longer run wayto truly connect with these customers and do what they need to do to get themto commit and or have you seen, people winnow down their list of types ofpeople in con, because those people just are much quicker to leave or theyhang around too long like an now that i'm asking it or monologuing it kind of in the form of aquestion i'm starting to wonder to like. Is there anything inherently good orbad about a longer expiry window? I mean, i guess the ultimate thing is wewant the right people to say yes faster than than not, and we want thewrong people to say no faster than not that's very true one of theconsequences of a quadrant one for fit. Is we figure out the cost to serve? Ithink that's where cos and business leaders realize that if you do make adecision in quadroon and you decide that this is a profile that can fit theproduct in quadro to all of a sudden, they may appear to be quite rosy or notso rosy when we look at them through the lens of quadrio, because as we lookat quadro for the longer, the customer expired generally the greater that costto serve, because we've got more interactions that we're now supportingand the more interactions we have, the greater the chance that we introducefriction so out of the gate. One of the decisions that a company could make isjust serve customers with shorter customer expiring. If you can handle it,if you can go through the kind of transformation you need to incedant foryou're, going to see that revenue turn around quicker, but also what's goingto happen, is, is you're going to get the intelligence quicker. You know. Theworst thing you can do is a start up. Organization is go and serve a customerwith eleven month expiring, so that right at the end of the eleventh month,you finally get the intelligence at says: oh you're, the wrong customerprofile, and it wouldn't it be nice to figure that up maybe day three into theinteraction we are serving a customer thet s expires in three or four days,so the short of the expiry, the faster the return of revenue, but also thequicker we're going to get that intelligence, which is going to correctus and make those kinds of changes we need to make in quadrants one and forwhat are your earlier questions was rather interesting. It's it's got me thinking. Can't we as an organization push the window open up someone'sexpiring from say three days to say seven days, i've never seen it. I thinkwhat happens is is that people consciously or unconsciously arware toa particular amount of time which they're prepared to put into making abuying decision? And it's got to do with the time i put into the decision versusthat perced value i get out of the by so the greater the perceived value thati get back of the more time i'm...

...prepared to put in the longer i'mprepared to go to research, understand and make the right decision. Thereverse happens. If the perceive value is less, you know, i think i think ultimately,what you get at is you know when you start talking about the cost, to serveyou're talking about at some level, lifetime value and from a profitability.Standpoint probably- and i think that's been a consistent theme over theepisodes that i've hosted, including some before our first connection, andcertainly some sinse, which is you know the best customer. Ultimately, if wehave to pick the best customer, it's probably the one with the highestlifetime value and whoever else shares the four five six, seven most relevantcriteria to who that person is. You know it's not just industry, it's notjust role or whatever, and so i think that you know the longer. We push thatout the more effort we require on their part, the more cost we put in ourselves.The more friction we introduce, ultimately, that's going to increasethe cost to acquire in the first place and probably increase the cost to serveover time and probably hurt lifetime value, at least from a profitabilityperspective. So i'm with you now there's no reason to extend expiry, butit is an interesting dynamic. It's really interesting to think about. Imean you know. In reading the book run frictionless for those listening greatread: it's pretty compact. It really picks up where this conversation is andwalks it out it's worth, keeping around on the shelf a cause, it's physically,attractive and b, because you know it's just his kind of like pick up set downremind yourself kind of an experience, but in reading the book in ourconversation and preparing for this one, i think a lot about my experience hereover the past decade, a bomba- and it really is this interesting set ofdecision making. We've definitely made one four challenges: opportunitiesconversations decisions over the years and it's just been this interesting andconstant running challenge to do so. You still spinning on on expiry windows.Yeah, it's a very interesting concept of, and i think you're right. I thinkyou can. What i see it happen is, i think, a really good example as a newcategory where customer has and purchased before so take electric cars,like that's, probably a really good example where they might be going for agasoline car, but then in the mix they decided to throw an electric car andthen what happens is an electric car provider is able to convince them tomake it to extend their decision making and to look at other aspects and otherparts of the lifestyle that they have to think about and changing in order touse an electric car and they might go yeah, that's fantastic. Let's do that.I see that i see the value in this and i will take longer and look at it. So ithink that's a very valid point, weare. Definitely at bomba i mean youknow enough about us and what we're trying to do- and i mean you can see avalues play for sure i mean shared belief. I think, has been reallyimportant to our success internally and externally. Over the years, have you been experimenting withpersonal videos? Yeah yeah lot. Yeah tell me a little bit about that, likewhat were some of your steps in that process. Well, i think the personal video hasbeen really helpful for overcoming friction and quade treen for we've usedthem internally inside the organization to just talk about product development.But if i was just focusing on customer development, definitely they've beenvery useful from cosens ring for because the thing that i love about,the video is how you can deliver your brand, your your personality from theorganization and put it directly into the hands of the customer immediately,and it's so convinced when you think about it that personal meetingcircumvented, so many interactions in...

...quadrupus goes because we don't have to. I don't have to sendyou an emailed to say wot me on calendar ly, then i don't have to thentry to get on to the call. Then we don't have to go through the wholeprocess of try to work out way out. Audio is not working. It justcircumvented so much time that goes. That goes by could be up to three orfour days in quadrare trying to get somebody on to a zoom call. When i canjust send you a personal greeting message right now, and we can startthis conversation without all that friction yeah. It is really nice. I like the wayyou folded, q, three and there two in particular. It is interesting. Theseasyncritus videos like we're, recording this right now in a platform calledriver side, and we started at six thirty in the morning. Your time, twothirty in the afternoon my time. Thank you again for making me part o yourmorning and we had to you know we can connect right like i feel like. I knowyou, because we've spent an hour before over at this. At that time it was zoom,and so this allows us to escape space right you're in australia, i'm incolorado, but we had to be here at the same time is so this idea of being ableto put some of those personal elements and that clarity in some of theconnection we were talking before we hit record about micro expressions andsome of the tells that help us understand, someone's intent or wherethey're going with their message, sometimes even before they say it, andso so this this recorded video allows us to operate outside of outside ofspace. We don't need to be in the same place, but it also allows to do itoutside of time. I can record a video after we get done here and say thanksso much again for your time, anthony when you told me this that and theother thing it triggered these things for me gosh. I am so glad we gottogether for another conversation and then i'll call it a day and i'll gohome and spend time with my family, but it'll still be the middle of your dayand you might watch it in the middle of your day. You might watch it tomorrowmorning and it doesn't matter, but you're still going to get all of thatthat personal expression outside of space and outside of time. You know oneof the the ways that we've been using it just recently was. If we had a proposal, request fromor customer would send them the proposal, we don't try to get them onto a phone call, after that we don't irritate them with so done of that,it's all rubbish. Three or four days later, they just get another messagethat they have not replied to our proposal of first email, which says:hey he's a video walk through the proposal. We know that you probablyneed some some things answer. These are some of the most salient points thatwe're going to cover for in the next two minutes in his video and it's apersonal video for them. Just on their proposal. We've had a lot of positive feedbackfrom customers because they don't have to go through all the terror andencages or trying to book a call when which is convenient for them. For usjust to listen to us talk about something that we could have a done ina video yeah, and it also gives them something they can share with otherpeople right. So you know- and sometimes you need to get two or threepeople together on your side, two or three or four people on their side.It's an absolute nightmare to schedule, but in this case you give it to the oneperson and they can share it with the two or three other people that may wanta way in on the decision. Yeah there's a company in australia that i was justdoing some consulting work for they're trying to build coaching courses into the us and thequestion i pitched to them. I said: look there's a very, very strong business coaches in the us and when uscustomers in their time zone, so nine, a m on the east coast when they're sending out their messagesand looking for a business coach. The people who are in that market are goingto be getting on the calls and talking to them within a few minutes. Maybeapto two hours maximum, but within a couple of hours, they're already gotpeople who are going to be setting up zoom calls and getting on to zoom callswith these folks. If we're located all the way back in australia, how we goingto compete with this and one way that...

...we can do it is we can, instead oftrying to get them on to a zoom call, we could be sending them personalizedvideo messages as soon as we possibly can to create that experience that oneto one experience between two people and try to catch up to those who hadwho had the advantage against the australian company in the early gamereally good. I, like that use case, and i like the way that you took the timeconcept and walked it out any other favorite use cases that you want toshare before we kind of wind down here. Yeah, i think, bringing quadrant threeinto it into the whole session is really important as well. Talking aboutthe you know the belief of the company, because i think the first greetingvideo is really not so much about product product product that, i thinkthat's a mistake. I think it's really good to be about a meet in greek andjust a discussion about whether or not you and i share the same belief and soby just tabling that straight away is going to either make that customer getcloser to your organization or it's going to simply eliminate them andeither way it's a good thing. Yeah. I think the sooner i mean just to exprethn, we'll put a button in it on it. You know getting to experi. We want thatyes or no sooner than later, so that no one is over investing time or energy.That is not going to be fruitful for both people, so for folks werelistening, he is anthony candoris and he was my guest back on the episode.Seventy nine of this podcast. We called it a four part framework for africtionless experience. We covered all four quadrants, i don't approximatelyequally here. We really spent a lot of time on three and four for the benefits,but you'll get new information that you did not hear in this conversation backon episode. Seventy nine and then anthony- and i had a good conversationback and forth about episode, six, which was with my long time friend andteam member co, author of a book called we humanizer business, he's steve,passon, eli or smo at bombum, and we called that one connecting withcustomers by exploring a shared belief and obviously that language aroundshare belief was to trigger to say this is a really interesting concept, and idon't know that i had read your book when we first kind of connected on thatword or that phrase rather shared belief. But it really is nice, the wayit came to life, and i was glad to be able to spend more time in it inconversation today before i let you go, i'm going to ask you the same twoquestions. I asked you the last time at this point in the conversation first,would you please give a thanks for a mentioned to someone who's had apositive impact on your life for career and then second give a not or a shoutout to a company or a brand that you appreciate for the experience theydeliver for you as a customer. That's easy. He could shout out to my fatherwho taught me life skills like had to change a likoer bill furniture and when it comes to a brand or acompany, i'd say zero for producing beautiful accounting software awe. Sowhat just before we go, give me a couple of pieces of furniture thatyou've made and either a given to someone or sold to someone who loved itor be that you love yourself yeah. So one of the things that makes me happyis creating something and then watching someone use it and furniture is one ofthose avenues. So i bought a few pieces. One of them i gave to my partner'ssister, that's a small little stool and i also built some wooden toys for mypartner's boy. Awesome. I love it. I also like thisblend of working with your hands part of the time, working with your mind,most of the time and just the balance between those two. That's awesome. Ilearned something new. I learned a lot of new things today actually, but thatwas that was one detail that was new to me. If people have enjoyed thisconversation, which you know, we've gone long on this one, not too long,but you know it's if someone's with us... this point, they're, obviouslyinterested in you and what you're up to the way you think your frameworks et ce.Where would you send people to follow up on this conversation that theyenjoyed yeah? They can find me on run, friction lescom or just hit me up onlinked in anthony condorus. They can do a search on linked in the passon. I will round up links to thethings that we mentioned in this conversation i'll give you links to hisbook links to his website etcetera, but you can also hit him up directly. I'mlinked in and at run friction liscom anthony. Thank you again so much foryour time today. Thank you e an i'm. Looking forward to reading your newbook you have to, let me know when it's out yeah we'll do if folks arelistening. That's kind of you to mention that's at bombombay, and weround up all of these episodes at bombo podcast, so we'll be updating that bookpage right now today is we're recording. It simply reflects rehumanize yourbusiness, a book that i wrote with steve a couple of years ago and hasgone very, very well and it's been really helpul and it talk about sharinga belief. You know just offering something out like that. That wasreally a very personal book on from both of us, but with you know dozensand dozens of customer stories and useful frameworks and tips and things.But you know, there's the sheered belief runs throughout that thing, andso it's been very effective as a vehicle. That way, i think we'll getthe same on the new book called human centered communication, it'll publishin october on fast company press, but we'll be talking about it more and moreas we go. It could be up, live now right now at bombaces book. It dependswhen you're listening to this episode. Thank you for mentioning it anthony andi'll make sure that it gets into your hands thanks for the thank you clear, communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidanceto pick up the official book. Rehumanize your business, how personalvideos, accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in ordertoday at bombance buck, that's b, o m b bomb com buck thanks for listening tothe customer experience. Podcast remember the single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers, continue. Learning the latest strategies and tactics bysubscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bom bombopodcast t.

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