The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 138 · 4 months ago

138. Human Factors & Design Thinking w/ Anand Tharanathan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Human factors is a field of science that explores capabilities and limitations of humans as they interact with a product, technology, or service. The goal of human factors is to capitalize on the capabilities and to circumvent the limitations to create an optimal human-machine interaction.

In this episode, I interview Anand Tharanathan, Chief Product Officer at MetaCX, about incorporating human factors into every aspect of design.

Anand talked with me about:

- Tips for building a superior design team

- User centered design: what it is and why it matters

- Starting with empathy

- How to synthesize insights into viable tests

- Becoming a first-time Chief Product Officer

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

So the more you are in front of themand observing them and shadowing them not getting into their job. The moreempathy you will, the more empathy you build the next time you go ride a lotof code or you design a scream or you start bringing talking about a product.You start bringing that empathy in forefront. You started thinking aboutthe human, the user more. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host, eaten Beaute, use your experience, design thinking humanfactors. Today's guest brings deep insights, experience and expertise inthese areas to help us and form our own experience. Design process he's, earneda Ph d in experimental psychology and human factors from Texas Tech, amaster's degree in industrial engineering, from the New JerseyInstitute of Technology and an MBA from north western universities, CalogeroManagement, so he's blending psychology, engineering and business to humanizecustomer experience he's led research and design teams at companies like facebook, Angie's list and honey. Well today, he serves as chief productofficer at medic, where their pioneering a new outcomes basedapproach for managing the customer life cycle by transforming how suppliers andbuyers collaborate and win together on an torothee welcome to the customerexperience podcast. Thank you, Tho, I'm glad to be here yeah. I I reallyenjoyed getting to know you a little bit recently and I'm glad we're in thisconversation and before we get into customer experience. I reallyappreciate your unique perspective on it and I've say unique relative to mostof the guests that we host you're on...

...the show. I think your expertise isgoing to be especially unique relative to that population, but before we getinto it, you've lived in India. You've lived in Minnesota, Texas, New Jersey,you've lived in cities like Indianapolis, Chicago you're, currentlyin the San Francisco area. When you think back at all of the differentplaces you lived, which is at least twice as many places as I've lived.What are the highlights that come to mind or that is there a park or a storeor people like when you think back at all the places you've lived like justspur the moment tap of my like. What do you reflect that in I say Gosh I missedthat person that place. That thing you know it's interesting, I mean thank you.This is an interesting question. One thing I talked about, which is uniquein a way that I was fortunate to be in a way exposed to, as I lived for aboutfifteen years in a country called Guitar, which is in the Middle East. Iwas born in India and I moved there. My Dad was working for almost third yearsand when I was living there, one of the things I was able to do, I used to be atennis player, not as much now, but I used to you know, play pretty advancedand I got the opportunity to play with the prince of the country who right now is a King of guitar. Soyou know it's one of those things when people ask me what is one thing aboutyour experience living in different parts of the world that you always goback to remember? This is something I always talk about. I think it's prettycool yeah that is really cool now. Is there any obligation to let a princewin a match, or is this like out of respect? You have to do your best andplay your hardest, even if it means defeat for him. I always played myhardest and you know I did win. I did that fall up question a lot and I didwin. We played, I think three times and I won all the times, but it was just agreat experience cool. Do you still play today? I do play yes, nice, okay,so where we always start on the show is...

...customer experience and basically take this. However, you likelike, when I say customer experience to you out and what does that mean? It'ssuch a lowder term there's so many different definitions for customerexperience and the way I look at it is how it comes down to the emotionalcomponent, the visitable reaction to something and how you stay with thebrand over time, and I strongly believe the more we can invoke and state thatemotion of interacting with the product or a service. That is for me theexperience, be it a user, a customer, how we going to put it, what Lens youlook at, but that emotional component and maximizing. That is what I try tooptimist. When I think about customer experience. I love it. I love that youwent straight to the emotional component because, to someonerelatively ignorant about the heart ins and outs of the deep research thatyou're attuned to in the types of teams and processes that you've beenresponsible for, you know be tempting to just assume that it would there be astronger data orientation, not that there's not a data component to theemotion. But I appreciate the isolated that right away and I let that kind ofcolor our conversation a little bit before, for we proceed too far. In yourview, in your experience, is customer experience better handled as like acultural component or an ethos of an entire organization, or is it betterhandled rule team function or does that vary based on the organization? I thinkcustomer experience is the more you silo it into a Department ororganization or team. I think it is arrested pe for failure. Customerexperience has to be a part of everybody's details in a company, andthat has to be a priority and the more you make it that the more departmentsand organizations with ten companies start focusing on that and that showsotherwise you're starting to ship ort structures and not the experience. Andso I, in my opinion, I think it has to span across a company, has to startfrom the the top and has to be drawn...

...bottoms up. So that's how it at leastfor my perspective, I look at it yeah. I started asking that as a follow up tothe main definition, and that seems to be pretty consistent, but it certainlydepends who you talk to you about it and it does like it. So I mean thepurpose of the role the person or the team or the function, I think, wouldprobably just be to advance that ethos and that the priority and what it meanspractically and storytelling internally about doing customer experience welland Yeah Yeah. And if you think about anything I mean you have the marketingside of the world which is kind of staying ahead. A really understandingusers, you obviously have a product in engineering organization that buildsproducts that has to definitely focus on the experience that we bring from aproduct standpoint. We do some companies have services that has tofocus on the interaction, the talking the communication. So there's, if youthink about it, sales organization, there's just so many components that aproduct or a service or a company touch us the customer at, and we have to lookat it and to end, and so oral organizations within the company haveto make that a priority. Only then the successful ones come out. Have you beenpart of an initiative where perhaps an organization that you were in wasn'tespecially attuned this way or oriented this way and went through thattransformation or no one hundred percent? One of the companies I workedwith earlier in my career we had. It was a time where experience led designand experience let products for starting to become an important part inthe market. It was with how you know Apple Ball and that whole design leftthinking and all that started, and the company was. That was not really tunedto that in a way, but to their credit from the executive level, there was ahuge initiative to kind of think about it. That way, and we went man it was.It was a massive effort that spanned across multiple years, and even todaythey have a really well established...

...practice. There we started with almostlike a team of less than twenty people around it around research and designand experience all and it was. It had be to be B to see everything. Thiscompany was a big one, and today, when we look at how products are beingdeveloped in that country, in that in that organization, from the Geg fromthe beginning, the customers are brought in. It's an iterated productdevelopment cycle, the customers always in the loop. We continue to tweak theexperience of the product and it's a very different way of functioning todayand there's, I think, over a thousand people and that involved in that kindof thinking and it's a cross leadership. It's the cross countries so yeah, and Iwas fortunate to be a part of that, because there was a lot of scars, a lotof pain initially when we were starting that like what does this even mean fora company like ours? How do we put that in perspective? How do we go into andwhat are the different touch points? What kind of agencies do we have torecruit to get a little bit of momentum in it? What kind of communication do weneed internally within the organization so that people start getting educatedon it? It was a huge initiative and I thought, being a part of that earlystage, really helped. Not only me learn the craft and do that, but also justhow important it is for a company for its market share. You know, crossmultiple dimensions, so good. I'm glad to hear that and inreflecting on that, where there may be one or t, because we're all trying toalmost any organization, and certainly people that are listening to shows toget exposure to new ideas and these types of things like the type of personthat would listen to the show, is probably evolving innovating. You knowgenerically speaking and obviously, no matter whether the transformation is asmall behavioral one in a very small team or whether it's this largeorganizational like this is the way we look at view and think about and talkabout things now. You know we're all undergoing transformations prettyconsistently. At least people that are moving forward are just from apractical standpoint, or there one or...

...two or three things that you rememberfrom that massive transformation that might be useful for someone who'strying to do something, perhaps more moderate in their own organization.Today, like you already mentioned kind of the internal communication piece butlike what are a couple things practically there also three thingsethen that stood up to me as major learnings from that whole effort, and II take that to any jaw I go to and ever we think about a massive transformationdead experience later other rises. One is, it has to be a multidimensionalteam, so it cannot be just an engineering team or just a design teamor just a research team or just to sale. Steed there has to be representationfrom at least in that case. Have we had sales? We had marketing and propengineering and design. So it has to be a multi dimensional team. That's onenot because the voices from each of those have to be a part of thediscussion at least early on number two is we have to start with a pilotprogram. So when you start thinking about institutionalizing ortransforming it's easier to get caught on the wave and just go blanket, andthen you know sometimes of failure, it can be really painful. But if you startwith the pilot em and how we did it is we have, you know, I think it was likeseven lines of business and so from each line of business. We picked onespecific product line instead of going across the whole gamut and we picked aproduct lion when we pinted that specific product we looked a multipledimensions. One is: Is that team ready? Does it have a growth mind set okay forfailure? Where is that in the market maturity State? So there were multipleivents that we looked at, but we picked one from each line business rather thangoing across. Then we tested the model across and then once we saw and learnedfrom it, then it slowly expanded it across the different product lines andnumber three is we have to be okay with failure, and that was just drilled intoour heads from the beginning that this it's okay to fail? We fail fast, andit's so easy, like people use that term...

...and sentences a lot now nowadays, butit was so true and how we lived it and we did have failures. There's a lot ofscars from that that you know when I look at doing something new in a newcompany, those learnings just come back to me. You know so those three things,I believe, really stayed with me as a part of that at least that you shouldave that I've taken and applied and start all different roles and had afterthem. I can tell by how well structured and concise your response was that itdid stick with you and then you spent some time thinking about it. Perhapstalking about it and sharing it with other people. I guess last questionhere and I didn't intend to even go down this road at all with you, but I'mglad we're here in terms of those failures. How was the split betweenlike they were kind of like mechanical failures or process, oversights versushow much of it was out of the human side of it either resistance orconfusion? Misunderstanding a lack of emotional by cognitive understanding,but lack of emotional by and like when you think about the failures or like,were they evenly split or were they? How did that go? You know the big one and I touched onthis earlier. I think the biggest failure that we learned was aroundcommunication and keeping the team in the loop as we go through it, becausewe're talking about a multidimensional team to start some ofthose members didn't even know what we're, after with his yeah, thisexperience, let design for the O. Okay, great sounds great, sounds cool applesdoing it great, but unless we keep that team and power of that team andcommunicate pretty much every detail in every sing single meeting, we have andsay what are we learning? why Er we're not learning it's easy for that team todrift away, and that learning- and that was one I would say, was consistentacross that whenever we saw a communication failure or acommunication gap of communication eternally starting with the GeneralTeam, that pilot program would just fall apart. So that's one and thenobviously there's more, but I think...

...that's one that I always always in anyof the work I do to communication. I just I just it's such it's. Such ahuman component to it right, like people, have to feel like they'reinvolved their power, their ware and the communication is a way to do it.Yeah. I love that you landed it. Essentially, the intersection of thetwo things I was trying to just peel apart. The like that communication isthat the intersection of those two kind of generic categories that drew out soyou're right at the edge of it. So, let's get into it. I have almost nounderstanin at all of human factors. So I love like a pass on that, because Ithink people can find it useful. I have gone in. I've done a kind of a mediumshallow dive into human center design, which I think you would say, designthinking in human center design are two phrases for the same thing so forpeople who aren't familiar because I've applied human center design tocommunication and in like in a theoretical way, essentially trying tospeak to o Human Center of Communication. So I think that theprinciples are applicable not just so that people could adapt human centerdesign as they're, making decisions and developing things. I think you'd beapplied very broadly, and so first, I guess take on human factors. I likejust the cursory read when I was reading about your background is like Ineed to learn more about human factors before I get on this call and is superinteresting, but then also human center design, like just give us anintroduction to these things, for the ignorant, yeah, fair human factor. Solet me let me try to explain hopefully in simple terms what that whole peal ofscience is about. It's really understanding, capabilities and limitations of humans, as and when they interact with theproduct technology or service and then capitalizing on thecapabilities circumventing the limitations, so that eventually,...

...the overall trout of performance ofthat man, machine interaction, is optimal. So there is a psychology component to itis understanding how humans can think what kind of attention, resources andworking memory capacity and things like that decision, making skills underpressure, not t you know pressure the psychology component. Then there is aengineering side that once you understand that, once you understandnot only the human psychology of interacting but then also thetechnology that we need to build to help the human and the technology theengineering side comes in, and it's really that both of them in tandemwhere human factors plays a really crucial role- and you can apply this toany space where there's a human complainant involved any space, itcould be a Mug, it could be an APP it could be inthe airport. Like screening could be in military operations, it could beanywhere there's a human and a technology in VAL, so that's humanfactors, understanding that side of it. So there's a psychological and even aphysical. Like a bio mechanical, you, okay for this, we call it in psychologyin an the human factor, spas. We call it about the shoulder and bow theshoulder, so bother shoulders, really the mind and those side and thenobviously in chair- and you know you have the Ergonomic site to so so that'sseven facts it. Hopefully that gives you a little bit of a yeah, fantasticand then, when come to design thinking it's you know it's been around for awhile and the more you really start applying principles in the space ofhuman factors to product and service design or in products and services, thecomponent or the aspect of design becomes more and more pronounced, andso, when you think about us a center design or human center design, it'sthat that philosophy that you bring to the forefront and when you think aboutdesign thinking, there's different models of explain that, but one that'sreally struck with me. It's a little. I would say a little a few years old, butstill valid. Is there are three pillars...

...when you think about is I'm thinking itis and when you think about a product or a service, it is a tech feasibility.How feasible is it to technical or Technology Obil? It the businessviability, so you think about a product or service. How much is that going tohelp the business, the business of viability and the third component is auser desirability. So how much would it resonate with users to your customers?So the more you can bring those three pillars together? That's the center ofit is really it CD or design thinking, that's what we really and that it'sabout iterated product development and bringing users in early and continue toiterate with them. Eventually, that's that, hopefully, that gives you thephilosophy of CD or exene that look yeah. I love the the three pillars ofviability, feasibility and desirability. You know my first pass at it when I wasstars getting in, I thought there was a bias toward desirability and to seethem balanced out. I think you know, because there's a tendency like as Iwas thinking about applying human center designed to Human Center tocommunication, there's bias toward maybe altruism or something I'm goingto do a little bit more effort on my side to meet or exceed their needs andto overcome my own limitations simply for their benefit, which you know intheory, the more we can do for customers these days. I think thebetter they respond, but balancing the viability and the feasibilities is really really smart. What you offertheir made me think about the language of customer experience and userexperience is user experience simply the product aspect of a broadercustomer experience. In your view, yeah- and that's that's kind of why, when,when I think about customers, are every touch point, but us or experiencetraditionally has been tied to this specific experience related to Prox andwhen people say I'm a UX designer or UX researcher. It's really the productaspect of design of the you know, product aspect, research and customerexperience traditionally has spanned across. So it could be anywhere from acall center to when you takea a the bet...

B. Worl y take a product to a customer,and then you help them set it up and how the different touch points thereinvolve and so it's a whole whole nine there. So it could be seen as a smallset of the larger customer experience fuel as Ux. But to me it's all, it'sall the experience, two more questions in this kind of z a little bit. One iswhy isn't human center design the standard like when I think about againviability, feasibility, desirability like? Why do I interact with people?And you know, as I was again going down this road of Human Center design, HumanCenter communication as talking to different people about it? A lot ofpeople don't know anything about it and it's not like it seems like such apractical frameworks. That's one questions. Let's just go there! Why doyou think this isn't more common or familiar or like? Why isn't this inpopular language, at least in a business context? I know that's just I've been amazed by that. I'm in thesame same boat as you and I think has to be it just has to be. I mean that'sjust if you look at the biggest brands and how they operate. It's a part oftheir Athos, and that should tell us not only from a market cap andprofitability of companies in general, but that just has to be the kind ofproducts they bring regardless of the space. Your end be to be or be to seethe more companies think about human center design and that trickles down tothe way they operate like how they're engineering and product teams andMarketing Teams C, you know collaborate to all the way to how the C iscommunicated out to the street. I mean there's just it sits across. It has tobe man and just always felt it, and I do see that gap. You know it's one morefascinating thing. If I can share it to cast that when you think about some ofthe B B products, I don't want to say a ham just just take in generally and seesome of the Bdsha you- and I just you know, interact with the day and in topof mind for a lot of people, beat a scedule a ride, just checking into ahotel or one of the social neaps, the...

...same people who use the B C products orof the Hian apps when they go to work in a Bob Setting. The expectations areso different of how the experience of the product of the service could be andwhen they go home after work and interact with the technology andexperience they are impatient. Things need to work fast and needs to be rightthere when they need it, so that that distortion, I call it the expectation,distortion between Bob and BBC, the same people in different. You knowrules so there's just so much there to uncover is really what I'm saying andand to your point earlier, that just needs to be friend and center forpeople for companies for organization and how you bring human center designand in thinking into your product and service development process, go one more step deeper there like atwhat I my gut, would be that that expectation on B to B has to beaccelerating, because of how the B TC is now resetting my expectations. Oneexperience at a time it's like. Why am I tolerating this over here, because itfalls under a different practical category or something like this is awell. This is B to be software, so my expectations aren't as high as betssoftware, like obviously people don't are certainly aren't conscious of it,but I maybe we've been trained to have some kind of a bias. Maybe that way.But what do you think about the idea of that gap being forced to close yeah? Icould fine piers man. I could talk about this for for an hour and I thinkI'll touch on two things here. So there's something when I I think when Iwas at fewer part of it centre, it's a it's a huge design agency. Don't quoteme on this, but I think it's a couple of the design leaders of feard came upwith his concept. What we call fluid expectations, fluid expectations reallymean people have expectations that areagnostic of the space or the product per se. So, even if you're, interactingwith a terminal in an airport or in a control,you know a par plan. Your expectation...

...is that it should work as smoothly asone of the apts you used to listen to music, because the expectations arefluid. It has no boundaries and because of Lich to your point, especially inthe Betmore, there has to be an an accelerator effort to bring and matchexperiences that we are seeing in the beds world and the reason that gapexists is, I think, multi multidimensional, moth penfold. One isa lot of times the point of sale. The person who pays for our product andbeauty be is not, is not necessarily the same person who uses the product sothat just leads to several. You know it's like you know, Snow Wall factor.What are we going to call it, but that's one big, I would say if you dowhat Roucas analysis? That's one part of it. It really is. I got yeah, so Imean there's more, but I think that's, but yes, one hundred percent the PTworld has to catch up. The experience has to be, and I think the potential tobring experiences a forefront is significantly higher and be to be, andI think we should you know no get that gap as a Essen as possible. Awesome.Now, let's go let's go kind of double back a little bit into. What I wouldregard probably is. One of your specialties is certainly where youspend a lot of your career and it's it's anchor. It's the foundation. Ithink for human center design, which is immersion with the state holders in thedesign itself, like the people affected by by the process or the product or thesystem or whatever you're designing, and so this intimate familiarity. Thistrue understanding, probably alignment with so a maybe speak to the importanceof that at the beginning of any kind of design process and then maybe give up again. If you are theignorant, how do you get to be that intimate with those people? It's notjust picking up the phone and talking with six customers in this particularsegment to understand that segment like how do you collect the user's voice?How do you organize it? How do you use...

...it like? How do you truly immerseyourself at the beginning of a process? Yeah and there's two things? There is agreat question and analysis in there too. That is a really big question, butyeah, you know just mind my goal here by the way for youand for people listening is that maybe a leader in a customer success, team orsomeone running a abd team can think about their own systems and processesmay be a new thing that they're implementing and start to think aboutit. This way and think about maybe the resources that might be available tothem, and you know in a simple way, without a team of researchers to gokind of collect and gather and analyze and theorize and prove out. How do weapproach this? How do we approach this and or how do we collaborate acrossteams to get to some of this intimacy yeah? The great question great question,important one, and I'm going to try to be s six things as possible to hit inthe main points thiss again as sure please Manga rears pan across you knowthis month, O that an you board that last pain years last. It's a trend that everything I've saidin this in this discussion here, then, is it's very multidimensional, and letme let me kind of you know break that into a couple points one when we startoff, especially when a company is starting to think about. How do we dothis right? Research is one of those groups or teams or organizations.However, you want to put. It is not always the first top of mine thought that comes to anorganization to kick off. If they don't have one already, it could seem asexpensive. It could seem as Orow are you going to put? It just depends onthe on the mind set. If you do have a research team I'll get to that in a bitthings are, it means you're a little bit more advanced. So you know it's adifferent way to address a come. Let's say you don't have one and you're goingto start. How do I bring this customer centricity and humanizing our productof services to the forefront? I think we start with the people who arebuilding something have to have access...

...to the people who are using your system.That's like a principle or a philosophy that you have to have, and you know inmost cases when a company is starting that or if an engineer or a productmanager, who's or you know a designer. They have to just go and observe howthe user currently uses their system and the more you're trained in research.Like myself, you obviously bring a set of tools to the you know to the forefriend to kind of gather pro, but elicit consolidate those differentmethodologies. I won't go there yet, but just generally observing how let's say in a process plant.What's because I spend a lot of time in my career earlier, how a plan operatoractually goes and clicks on different things and how many clicks do they haveto make before they get to a particular outcome and how many pieces ofvisualization do. They have to look at to make a decision a lot of times.People who build products have no understanding about the level of effort,both comminative and physical effort they users have to put in so the moreyou are in front of them and observing them and shadowing them not gettinginto their job. The more empathy you built, the more empathy you build thenext time you go ride, a line of code or your design, a screen, or you startbringing talking about a product. You start bringing that empathy to theforefront. You started thinking about the human, the user more, so that'slike step one for a company to start getting to that mind, set of gettingfront of the users. Now. How do we do that? Is it for people? Isit Ken? Is it thousand? Is it and I worked in companies where our customersfan from tens or hundreds to billions in my career, like you? Can you knowthe brands that I work with and when you think about research in general,there is several methodologies and how you would account for the right sampleesigns, how many people what types of...

...background that's for a different day,but the idea is, you have to have a pretty good representation from thedifferent parts. It could be geographies. It could be differenttypes of users within a company whatever that is, but the idea is tostart small, you don't have to start boiling the ocean get into that mind.Set get in front of the users, observe how they work. Ask questions withoutdisrupting their work do sessions after their shift or their particular jobunderstanding. What happened why it happened? What do you think it is? Sothat's that's a big part of it. The other side which which I think isreally important to know is you know it's important to just nottake what the user saying I face value. So if I say I want that, that doesn't mean you just go build it.That just means as friend center. A lot of time to this is why you need to knowpsychology, you know, there's different types of different ways to look at it:People, people who have procedure lifeknowledge which means like if you're driving a car for you drive a stickshift or for your summer. If I ask you to explain in detail the steps you tankto shift a gear from one to two to three to four and how much of thecolletch in the Excelle of the gas you go, you can't describe it in words.It's O it's because it's procedure, life like how do you swim? When do youtake your you can because it's procedure life so there's aspects to it,which is more in the field of research, but don't take everything for facevalue. You got to look at it for multiple perspectives, go back to thedrawing board, synthesize it and then bring bring that back to the to thedesign. So what I'm really saying is start with empathy start with going tothe user starving, observing start with asking questions and from there thingswe can only progress, in my opinion, really good. I only have one specificfollow up there, although there are many many interesting things that youoffered there so for folks were listening, there's a sixty second backbutton for a reason: that'd be a good time to hit it twice, maybe three times,and...

...when I really loved about the way youintroduced empathy in the way that you close there is that my understandinglike so if you spend time on linked in like I do you see people saying? Ohempathy, you need to be empty, you need be more empathetic and it reminds me ofsomething that I've been teaching, which is you know, a lot of people. Youknow whether you're doing video, which is something we support here at Bombaor trying to become a you know right linked in posts or give presentationsor whatever people say. You need to find your voice, find your voice and Ithink to say that what I was echoing with me here was this: like fineempathy right, but you don't you develop it. You take actions thatdevelop your voice right, like I'm, going to get comfortable speakingextemporaneously in a recorded video message by recording some videomessages and the same thing here is I'm going to develop empathy by seeingobserving engaging with understanding I'm not going to, and I think you knowa shallow pass. It topics like these two that I'm trying to make a parallel.I don't know if it's working, I feel like it is the shallow pass as it at itis. You know, turn it on, don't leave it turned off, but it's just not. Youhave to develop it by doing the work, one hundred percent- and that's that'swhat I said is the mind instruction mind set. It starts with wind set andthen going in and to my earlier point about the company that we know westarted with a pilot and putting our team outi dimensional team. We made ita point that we have to be on the ground users so that actually the salesperson or the marketing person or the engineering participant they actuallysee it and once once they see it, they realize that. So it's not like for theflip of the switch. We say it and it just happens. You have to build it.It's it happens over time. There's going to be scars is going to be. A lotof learning is going to be back and forth, but it starts to the mind, setto put the customer to the user in the front and build that empathy overtime.The followed question I have is just a more of a personal curiosity. I thinkit's practical for every listener. Is You know, as you're organizing what pdifferent people are learning?...

Obviously, communication is going to bekey, but in particular what I'm interested in when, when the averageperson looks at what they have available, and they start going downthis road and they start doing some observations and conversations andfollow questions and stuff you're gonna have this blend, generally speaking ofquantitative and quality to feedback, how do we blend these things together?How do we communicate like? I did eight interviews and observations and she didfor how do we bring our learnings together and make sense of them so thatwe can like start making practical decisions, so we can start acting onwhat we're learning like? How do we blend disparate sources, seemingly orpractically desperate sources of data together into something meaningful anduseful and a cohesive story or something yeah? That's a great question.I think a lot of companies sometimes struggle with that which eventuallyleads to not the right insight. That, eventually,is not the right products and services et CE. So it's a very fundamental partof how you do it, which I think, if I, the more advanced an organization, ison the research side of it or the analytic side of it. A differentcompanies are organized differently, the better it is they're experts who dothis. So when you think about you know in my last job when as a face book, itwas we have very really mature recens organization and when we think aboutresearch, it's like there's quantitative information s, massivesurveys we do there is actual product usage data and any company that I workas is this is true. Then there's like conversations and interviews and thingswe do, how we bring all of that and really the best insights. That's alldata. This is all data. These different sources of data insights are when youconvert data into information, and when you convert data into information, youhave to put the person or the user in context, and then you drive in sight,and so insides are it's actually a good combination of these differentsources of information coming in beach could be surveys. It could beconversations, it could be quantitate...

...product usage data and look excite itwhatever that might be. They could be coming in from marketing sale anyway.It is important for these teams to be talking and communicating andexchanging context of these different channels of data so that the insightsthat are generated this different methodologies for it I mean there'sjust that's why people go to school for this in a lot of instances, you arereally deriving insights that are more meaningful, more credible, more brepeatable and then you start testing it, and then you start yeah. It makessense. You start putting personas and profiles into this so that it gainsmore context. So it's a what I'm really saying it is a Montidier effort.There's no like here. You do three steps in a work. It is a verycollaborative process but important for that collaboration to happen and thosedifferent sorts of data to come in to convert insights of information andlike so many things, I assume that's a balance of art and science. It is onehundred percent one hundred percent and you could be wrong a lot of times youcan be ran. Obviously, statistics is an voll in a lot of these things andthere's confidence in our ills involved in it and and there's qualitate that Yetalk to six people or seven people so much variants that cover a lot ofdifferent topics. How do you like go to the nuggets of the conversation andreally drill deep, validate that, with some of the Quarto Day day that you're,seeing so there's just a process involved in that and having reallydrive to key insights from an exercise like that very close to my heart, Ithink, can imagine something I really enjoy. I have done quite a bit, but itis the mix of Martin Science Super. Let's turn this to medic, so I'vealready hosted on this show Scott Mc coricle, founder and CEO, and I reallyappreciate what you all are up to the problem that you're solving but forfolks were listening. I typically do this earlier in the conversation, buthere we are share. Who is medic like what problems are you solving for yourcustomers and who are those customers? So I'm sure Scott touched on this to sgot amazing I'll. Give you my...

...perspective, which s got Y R lined onmedic is really a platform where you can think of a buyer and a suppliersuppliers were vendors or customers. How you want to call it? You have aBiran supplier in the beat O be world coming on to a platform like Medicis,where they share and collaborate and come up with a success land that worksfor both of them. That's why we call it both when right, you win it when wintogether, so buyers have certain needs find by your product. I have certainneeds. The vendor of the supplier has certain capabilities that eventuallymatches with the needs at the buyer has a lot of times. That's in Parpon,slides or excel sheets, or conversations or texts. Medic makes ita platform where buyers and suppliers both parties can come in and create ashared success plan. We call it as hair successful and those could be definedaround specific outcomes that are going to come out of that relationship andthat agreement, and then how do you drive the value and how do reallymonitor how those alcon are being met to life performance that data that wecan plug into our platform that over time, both parties are driving value not onlyinternally to their organizations but also to the larger ecosystem. So that's,what really medic does is bring biren supplier onto the platform. CRANA sharesuccess plan, bring life performance data and then both parties win together.I appreciate the transparency that that brings to the relationship. You knowthis. You know that it's a little cliche or or generalized, but you knowso often you see what needs to be said. You you do what needs to be done inorder to get the deal closed and then you know, nine months later, you startbegging for the renewal, and this just like, like. I assume that that thatyour customers are bringing bringing their their potential customers inwhere the buyers as early as possible...

...interest environment and into thisconversation and into this type of engagement. That's right and I'll. Giveyou a very specific example that we really as a research and a experienceand design later the past weve seen you know I used to I used to manage a lotof vendors, my organization, my teams. We have research, design tool, and sowe you know that we hire we use for our methodologies a lot of times. We don't really have an understandingof the value that were getting from them. We sign a deal on that goes offfor a year and we do something you know, and so how do we bring that into aplatform where both parties can see it and the value that we are creating notonly as a design or research organization within a company but thenalso how that's aline with or core objectives how the SUPPI is alignedwith like, for example, diversity? And you know so: Some of those corbetsMedicis is provides a platform to make that transparent and we're, seeing someamazing traction in the industry. For that- and it's just sounds very simple,but it is one of those things which is sounds very simple, but it just adds somuch valuable, tintern ly and also externs and organization cool. Oneobservation, one question: First, I know that you all are going to besuccessful, a because you've attracted a whole bunch of like really sharppeople into the organization and then be this is a people are the mostimportant, but anyway the be it's the it's like this. This DU thing like this didn't exist like this seems likeit should definitely exist, and this definitely seems like a better way todo all of this stuff that we're doing those of us that sell in a be to beenvironment. So I think that combination of things, it's absolutelygoing to be something successful and I'm certain you'll have to the agreethat you may or may not have competition. Now like we have a lot. Wehave at Bomba that a lot more competition. Now than we did seven oreight years ago, which is at some level, it's like, oh my gosh competition at atthe other level. It's like, Oh this, completely validates that this is athing that should be happening. So I know you're going to be successful.Last question here on medic really is. I think this is your first go. Is Achief product officer couple take this?...

How anywhere you want, but you knowsome of my interest here is: How do you function within the organization like?What is your relationship, perhaps with other kind of functional or departmentleaders and then to like what is maybe different about this role, then perhapsyou expected, based on your previous experience, like what's unique aboutthis rule, for you personally, in the experience that you bring to it,because it's a it's a role, you've not played directly before yeah. It's avery interesting question e thing and something that I probed and reflectedquite a bit as I was thinking about career moves, one to answer so twoquestions right in the first part, one of the things that I'm really admits tobe do really well is orchestra across apartments, because that, as I said, Iwe're small- I mean we're not you know, a hundred thousand people were small,but I think it starts when we're small that culture has to build that. There'sa really good orchestration happening across sales, any of our GT teams,customer success, proply June- and I run pract engineering. So that's onewe're just so much coherence and understanding and transference acrossvery important part of our culture. So that's one number, two from a chiefpracticer role. What is it different? How is it different is a differenthere's. Why? I think Scott. I have a lot of respect for him and I thinkthat's, which is why he is so successful. Is He's been a Beaut, befor him? Thirty years, seral years, then one of the things he's he'sstarting to hopefully started to see which I resonated with is people don'tpay for products they pay for the experience and when you bring that experience ledthinking than a person who's done experienced with design springs,innovation expends a product development to and ethos of, thecompany on how prods are being built and make experience of forfend. Thenit's just a matter of a title change or a rule change, but what I didthroughout my career, in mostly the BEC space with some by to be, is what we'redoing in scs we're putting experience...

...in the forefront of our product, how itlooks how it works, how it interacts, how it changes transitions penetratesacross different touch points for in to be to be base. And so, if you ask me,am I doing something really different? Probably not. In fact, I think Scotthas been really he's, probably going to revolutionize how products are beingthought about here, and the space were bringing experience to the forefront ofhow we think at it. You know a Doz period, and so it's been a really coolwhen I've been here now, seven months, eight months now it's been reallyreally exciting and to work with somebody like Scott and the team thatwe're building it's just ending space ever after to eventually build abusiness value network where bias and supplie collaborating on the meticplatform, and we have all that information that we can use to providevalue back to the network and coming where I'm a network company and, Ithink, putting all those things in in perspective and really using that todrive medica. It's just an amazing ride. For me, awesome I'm excited for you,I'm excited for the team, I'm excted for your customers and, above all, I'mexcited for the potential cultural shift that this will. I mean this goesback to where we were a while ago and by the way I had so many questions we'deven get to, but I feel like like. We need to call it soon. This idea of,like expectation management, I think, once once your customers, customers,have this experience, they're going to want it for themselves and their owncustomers and they're going to want it from their other fenders. It's like there. I'm really excited about that. The cultural shift that your philosophycould could guide, and so, if I can be of helping any way, let me know, butfor folks who are listening, we mentioned Scott and on and mentionedScott specifically that Scott mccorquodale at medic. I hosted himhere on this podcast on episode hundred a D twenty three. We called that onetransforming customer relationships with transparency and collaboration andcertainly the way we talked about the work that you're doing. I thinktransparency and collaboration fit,...

...will call this on something different,but that was episode. A hundred and twenty three was scat Scat Mc Corcelle,another one you might enjoy. If you enjoyed this conversation as episode.Ninety seven with Bob Barry, he's the principal UX researcher at answer laband he's the founder of the Human Computer Mastermind Academy. We calledthat one and I used his language on it. How you extries CX, in parentheses, inthe entire world economy, he made a basic argument that the logic prettywell held for me that you extrav CX and in fact drives he kind of statesepisode. Ninety seven with Bob Barry before I let you go on, and can yougive me two pieces of information and any context you want to add around them?The first is thinking or mentioning someone. Who's had a positive impact onyour life or your career, and the second is a company, your brand, thatyou appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Sothis is go. Goes back to the thread that I've, I guess said throughout thisdiscussion. A thing is, I don't think, there's one if I can just say two orthree for each of those questions and I'll say why it's just that we have aI've got engineering. You know psychology and business just the way Ibuilt my career so product. I think there are aspects of Apple. I love thebrand just again it CD and how Du they put design on the forefront, there'saspects of a product like lift where the APP is extremely, in my opinion,very extremely easy to use visual keeps the user in the loop a product liketerm attacks, which makes extremely complex taxed loss, gives a confidence to userin a simple, systematic way to fill out your tax forms. So there's aspects ofthose three that have all these excited me and some we were formed, and so Iwould say those three in a way that that have resonated quite well acrossbecause of different reasons and with people or a person who's had an impact.I mean this is so difficult for me to say I'll, say again: Three people on myp g adviser who's had a instrumental impact on me on on work, ethics andcommitment to to making things right...

...and being okay to fail. My Dad who'vehad a lot of person. I've had a lot of hat had a lot of personal impact on meacross oral dimensions and the third person for the leadership I'd say is:Will Catcat who had worked at Facebo K N. I started as a part of hisleadership team. Now he runs once that will would be embarrassed in evensaying this, but he has his approach to leadership, especially charismaticleadership is something that has stayed with me. How do you pe put you peoplein front as a leader and let them drive near Realy Channel Izing, and how doyou approach things with empathy and mind? So? Will My peg advisor Padalon aprofessor at rice, university now and my dad who passed away in December?Those three people, I think, are people who've, had impact on me for differentreasons. Awesome well done! Thank you for sharing that and, if folks haveenjoyed this conversation, which I don't think you'd be listening at thispoint. If you didn't, how can someone learn more about you or madic or evenhuman factors or human center design? If we want to send people on anexploratory journey? Where are some places? You'd send people who enjoyedthis conversation. Oh man there's a lot of research. Obviously you can connectwith me in Linton, I'm very a really active in Linton becom reach out to us.If you have any questions happy to chat, we have a wonderful team that I reachout to needs and then, with respect to human factors, I think there's so manyresearch you could do. We will search you get a lot, but I think FFORD H, FPSdot, or is the society that is kind of the body for human factors in economicsthat has academics practitioner students, it's really a good place tostart when you think about human factors in general I'd say it'sprobably a really credible recordites source to start super. I will roundthose up for folks who are listening. I put up blog posts with the help ofVivian on our team and some other folks. We put a block post at bomboost. Wedrop in a handful of video clips with kind of key moments in theseconversations I'll round up all of o...

...the links that on an mentioned and andsome other stuff too. So you can always visit bomboost if you're on the moveand you didn't write any of the stuff down and it got by you, no problem,we've got it all linked up and round it up and we've got some videos to. So.Thank you for listening and thank you so much for your time and insights onand I really enjoyed it and again probably could have done this one as atwo hour episode. Thank you that thank you for am really enjoyed it clearcommunication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of thebenefits of adding video to the messages your sending every day. It'seasy to do with just a little guidance to pick up the official book.Rehumanize your business, how personal videos, accelerate sales and improvecustomer experience learn more in order today at bombance buck. That's bombTombo Buck. Thanks for listening to the customer experience. PODCAST remember.The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers, continue. Learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcastplayer, or visit Bombombay.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (161)